Social Web Working Group Teleconference

16 Mar 2016


See also: IRC log


tantek, wilkie, dmitriz, rhiaro, aaronpk, shevski, ben_thatmustbeme, cwebber, tsyesika, sandro, Karli, AnnBass
ben_thatmustbeme, Ben Roberts, cwebber2, rhiaro, wilkie, sandro


<tantek> trackbot, this meeting spans midnight

<trackbot> Sorry, tantek, I don't understand 'trackbot, this meeting spans midnight'. Please refer to <http://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/irc> for help.

<tantek> scribe: ben_thatmustbeme

<aaronpk> good morning!

<scribe> scribenick: ben_thatmustbeme

<scribe> scribe: Ben Roberts

<tsyesika> tsyesika+

tantek: lets do introductions

ben_thatmustbeme (I won't scribe intros)

tantek: the first thing we're going to be doing is editing the agenda

<Karli> ok

tantek: we have demos and soem admin items to schedule

<aaronpk> scribenick: aaronpk

<shevski> hello

<shevski> i can't find you guyes

<wilkie> the room?

<shevski> yep, the room for the f2f

<wilkie> stata center, 4th floor common

<shevski> i did a fair amount of wandering around the 4th floor..

<rhiaro> G449

<rhiaro> shevski

<shevski> okay, on the 5th floor now. will come and have another look

sandro: i took an action item to propose a list of labels for organizing issues, i have that to present now
... probably before we go through issues lists

<ben_thatmust> scribenick: ben_thatmust

tantek: the next goals after that will be to looking at what is needed next for taking drafts to CR
... lets move work on publish updated working drafts to tomorrow

eprodrom: lets move demo of validator to before taking AS2 to CR discussion

tantek: this fully schedules what we had for goals and items to schedule thus far.
... do we have any other items we'd like to add?

shevski: what about reviewing implementations?

tantek: (schedules it) NOW i think we are done
... anything else?

AnnBass: do we have anyone on talky?

tantek: no, not yet

<eprodrom> Arnaud: are you joining by Talky?

tantek: the next telcon is the 29th, no telcon next week

<eprodrom> ben_thatmust++

tantek: mostly because most of us are busy here next week

<Loqi> ben_thatmust has 8 karma

tantek: the next F2F is already scheduled for portland
... the weekend before the meeting is the IndieWebCamp summit too
... right now we have 5 RSVPs to the next F2F

<tantek> https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/2016-06-07#Participation

tantek: please add yourself one way or another if you can go or not
... that will help aaronpk with venue planning etc
... the next F2F after that is in september in Lisbon Portugal as part of TPAC
... by a quick show of hands how many can make it to that?
... that was about 50% so it should be enough of a critical mass
... we need to submit for space
... i proposed thursday - friday that week
... if anyone else has any WG they are a part of, you might want to check with other groups to see that there is no conflict
... hearing no objections lets go with Thursday/Friday

sandro: what about annotations?

tantek: do we want to conflict or specificially not conflict

<Loqi> I added a countdown for 3/16 11:45am (#5814)

<Loqi> Loqi has 394 karma

RESOLUTION: reserve Thursday/Friday for meeting at TPAC in Lisbon

eprodrom: if we are to have another meeting after that it would be close to the end of the year, do we want to schedule that?

tantek: last time we discussed we suggested SF, i'd be happy to host

eprodrom: would there be any benefit to being here?

sandro: not really other than travel rotation

AnnBass: it would be more fair since the summer one is on the west coast

tsyesika: its easier for us to get here

<Loqi> Abasset made 1 edit to [[Socialwg/2016-03-16]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=97732&oldid=97731

<Loqi> Abasset made 1 edit to [[Socialwg/2016-06-07]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=97733&oldid=97480

<Loqi> Wilkie made 1 edit to [[Socialwg/2016-06-07]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=97734&oldid=97733

eprodrom: i'm not sure there is any benefit to meeting that close to the end of our charter

tantek: hopefully its to celebrate our completions

sandro: probably no decisions to make at that point

aaronpk: if we have to decide that before december, is it better to have it earlier?

tantek: now is the time to start planning date ranges certainly
... normally the TPAC is in early november, so its a little strange this year

eprodrom: could we sketch in a proposed F2F @MIT for early november 2016?

wilkie: we can always revisit this in june

tantek: this would give people plenty of time react

sandro: the week of Nov 14th doesn't conflict with anything (elections, holidays, etc)

tantek: lets just say early Nov so people have time to react to that

AnnBass: are we officially saying it here at MIT?

tantek: there is a proposal for that, I'm still happy to host in san fransisco too

sandro: november is far enough out we can ACTUALLY get our choice of rooms

tantek: we'll follow up on future F2F discussions with that schedule
... any other input on F2F or all other admin items?

activity streams conformance discussions

<tantek> https://www.w3.org/wiki/Activity_Streams/Conformance

eprodrom: just for context, one of the decisions we made was to add a conformance section to AS2 before getting to CR

<eprodrom> https://www.w3.org/TR/html5/infrastructure.html#conformance-requirements

eprodrom: specificially chose to mimic the html conformacne section
... this task has been on my todo list for some time, so i'm glad this is done
... can we step through this? its not as long as HTML5 conformance section as it had a lot of previous versions and its not as significant here for some of those sections
... non-interactive presentation for example is too detailed for AS2
... followed structure of html prolog
... the RFC 2119 is duplicated here, we can probably remove it here or at the beginning
... in terms of the conformance classes, its a description of the various roles

<Loqi> Abasset made 2 edits to [[Socialwg/2016-03-16]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=97736&oldid=97732

eprodrom: at times we say implementers must vs documents must, so we call that out here
... some specific MUST and SHOULDS are called out here
... if anyone wants to queue up, please do so
... prefer this vocab over other vocabularies
... there are JSON-LD features that should not be used
... those are detailed throughout the doc

sandro: why are these all SHOULDs not MUSTs?

tantek: maybe we should make these MUSTs

eprodrom: the specific sections are SHOULDs

tantek: we should update the SHOULDS to MUSTS as this conformance section seems to say it optional

sandro: it seems rather odd to just repeat all of these from the document

eprodrom: i was trying to bring up key points for conformance

<tantek> specifically, we could updated this: "Conforming publishers should make conforming documents available according to the serialization requirements of section 2." to "Conforming publishers must make conforming documents available according to the serialization requirements of section 2."

eprodrom: there are ways within JSON-LD to specify multiple languages for example and an AS2 version of that and we are saying to not use those things specifically disallowed by the spec
... let me ask a higher level question, i think the intention was to say "what is a good AS2 document?" and i wanted to collect that all in to one section
... is that a worthwhile goal for this section?
... is that the wrong kind of effort to put in to this conformance section

tantek: i think from a spec writing side, its better to prefer a MUST instead of a SHOULD

eprodrom: using 1.0 syntax for some of the properties is a MAY (from memory)

sandro: if you are as2 with some compatibility for as1 processors, are you "conformant"

tantek: is there a transition section in the spec?

eprodrom: yes
... the idea is there are 2 media types

sandro: sounds like as2 media MUST NOT have as1 content

tantek: if you can't come up with a specific reason for a SHOULD, it must be a MUST

rhiaro: if alternatives exist AS2 terms must be present, but you can have non as2 if there is no equivalent or as long as the equivalent is there

(some discussion about exact phrasing)

<eprodrom> http://jasnell.github.io/w3c-socialwg-activitystreams/activitystreams-core/#example-using-multiple-vocabularies

(i cannot scribe live editing sanely)

<eprodrom> http://jasnell.github.io/w3c-socialwg-activitystreams/activitystreams-core/#naturalLanguageValues

(edits to make last section more clearly)

sandro: have other editors been thinking about conformance clauses

aaronpk: webmention and micropub have short conformance clauses but nothing this complex

tantek: can acitivypub use that

<aaronpk> micropub conformance section: http://micropub.net/draft/#conformance

sandro: its much more complex for document formats

<tantek> consider s/Conforming publishers should make conforming documents/Conforming publishers must make conforming documents

eprodrom: done editing, it now says use the equivalents but also uses parallels

tantek: i had one more suggestion, in the publishers section

sandro: we haven't gotten there

eprodrom: there may be some other examples of documents we can add

<Loqi> Aaronpk made 1 edit to [[Socialwg/2016-03-16]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=97738&oldid=97736

eprodrom: i give a description of implementations as that word is used a lot

tantek: we can remove "human processes"

<tantek> * human processes

sandro: maybe specify they two types of implementations are publishers and consumers
... i think we can say MUST consider, its not really any way to test or enforce that
... at least make it stronger

tantek: human impact of the word MUST at least

eprodrom: since most of the publishing requirements are in the spec there is not much need for a large section here other than to say they have to create a document that conforms
... the final section is on consumers
... there are things that are MUSTs for them such as continuing to process if they hit things they don't understand

sandro: have you had feedback from jasnell_ on this?

eprodrom: no

tantek: has anyone heard from james?

<jasnell_> I'm here. somewhat ;-)

eprodrom: lets make sure we get his sign off.

<jasnell_> haven't been able to follow along with the conversation for a bit

<eprodrom> Oh hey!

<eprodrom> jasnell_, we've just discussed waiting for your review on https://www.w3.org/wiki/Activity_Streams/Conformance

tantek: do you think there is enough experience with how feed-readers treat other formats, to provide a base of how readers MUST treat AS2?

eprodrom: thats true we do have some experience from nearby domains we could borrow from

tantek: we could at least say "if you are building a feed reader here is your list of MUSTs"
... it would be a specific subsection for feed readers

Karli: do we mean an RSS reader here or more like a social client

<jasnell_> the conformance page looks ok, pretty light in terms of actual conformance rules but that's to be expected

tantek: its better to start more like an RSS reader, and we can expand later
... i'm not sure we have the experience to do that for social networks yet

<jasnell_> for producers, something should be said about conforming to the rules of each property. For instance, "updated" and "published" must be iso8601 date-time

eprodrom: it would take me a while to do examples for all of these classes

tantek: i'm talking about only for 1 specifically, not for any others

<jasnell_> "name" and "nameMap" must not contain markup, and consumers must not treat it as markup

<jasnell_> "summary"/"content"/"summaryMap"/"contentMap", however, are HTML and consumers should treat them as such, etc

eprodrom: its a very good example to use too
... i'm happy to do that, maybe even for tomorrow

Action eprodrom to add a section on feed readers to AS2 conformance section

<trackbot> Created ACTION-86 - Add a section on feed readers to as2 conformance section [on Evan Prodromou - due 2016-03-23].

tantek: i agree with jasnell_'s comments

<eprodrom> http://jasnell.github.io/w3c-socialwg-activitystreams/activitystreams-core/

<jasnell_> there are other examples, I'll see if I can come up with a more exhaustive list

<tantek> and adding that consumers MUST treat them as such

eprodrom: if you should through this document for capital MUST and Capital SHOULD, we have 30 must 31 should, 18 for may
... would recaping those be good for this section?

tantek: no, those requirements should be hardened

<jasnell_> but they include things like: on as:Link objects, the "id" property must not be considered to be the actual URL to the object, the "href" property must be used for that. The "id" and "href" can have the same value, but they serve different purposes

<eprodrom> jasnell_: I count about 30-40 each of MUST, SHOULD, MAY in the text

<eprodrom> Is the conformance section a good place to recapitulate them?

<jasnell_> not everything is captured as MUST/MAY

<eprodrom> Or should be refer to them by reference ("serialization as in section 2")

<eprodrom> jasnell_, such as for example, range of properties on different classes

<jasnell_> I'll take some time later on today and tomorrow to write up as many of these types of rules as I can

<eprodrom> jasnell_: feel free to edit the wiki page

tantek: if those are specific properties, edit the spec
... those requirements should go with the properties

<jasnell_> btw, my apologies for being awol the past couple of months, the Node community stuff has been keeping me quite occupied

tantek: later in the spec you can say "consumers MUST" and we know what a consumer is

<eprodrom> jasnell_: no problem, just glad to get it here

<eprodrom> jasnell_: let's powwow one-on-one for further editorial points

<jasnell_> +1

<jasnell_> if you would, send me a calendar invite for a time that works best for you

eprodrom: are there other things you would expect here or that are confusing?

sandro: i think this is good, the sort of lawyer perspective is what is someone going to get away with because of something we missed here? I think this is the right track but we can't guess what all those loopholes are in the future.

tantek: this is also going to feed into the test suite, any must can be captured in a test

eprodrom: is there a decision point we can make like "include a conformance section" i think we've already approved that, can we add this now as a first draft

sandro: i think we can do that and hope anyone spots any fixes before we publish again

tantek: i think this is good to go in now and i'd like to see it published sooner than later but we can talk about that in publishing schedule later
... shall we take a break?

rhiaro: lunch is here, half an hour early

tantek: lets do issue labels section then break for lunch

Issue Labels

sandro: issues labels on github is an over-contraint problem, you'd like it to be overly clear but issues have to serve several different reasons
... sometimes they are used for w3c process, sometimes for editors, sometimes for chairs

<sandro> https://github.com/sandhawke/spot/labels?sort=name-asc

sandro: i tried to put that all togeter in to a repo of mine
... commentor stuff is probably w3c process
... mostly these are on closed issues
... the Waiting ones are the ones the chairs would look at
... these are things that would show up on the agenda

the greyed out ones are ones can sort of ignore

eprodrom: i have two questions on this, we have a large number of repos on this

sandro: i have a script that can put all of these on a repo

eprodrom: this is for a spec repo, what about software / test suite

sandro: i assumed a spec

eprodrom: is there any reason not to start doing this immediately?

tantek: i'd like to see fewer

dmitriz: "editorial" vs "editorial: spec is ambiguous" is there a difference there?

sandro: editorial is not important change, spec is ambiguous is a little more dangerous

tantek: that sounds not editorial

Karli: with owncloud we start with fewer and add them as we need them, its also not clear here who sets these labels

sandro: agreed though i'm not sure we have a good answer to that
... someone with github permissions

eprodrom: my understanding is that some of these are anticipating questions of CR

sandro: for example we have 176 closed comments on AS2, we would want to have them all organized

tantek: i'm pretty sure thats for last calls etc, so we don't have to go through all old comments

sandro: i don't think thats true

tantek: in other groups after we went to CR we added them to "disposition of comments" but not before we went to CR
... it was "have you actually responded to all comments after the last call for comments"

sandro: okay, maybe we don't have to do that, We SHOULD do that..

tantek: i don't think we should, its a waste of our time

dmitriz: in the interest of reducing number of tags, 'waiting for' could be grouped

aaronpk: as an editor i like to mark things specifically for the group

tantek: i think we should limit it to those that help the W3C Process, and add it as needed

sandro: for example james at last f2f, he had to organize them for us
... this would give us that organization

cwebber2: it would help us get some idea of priority setting

<cwebber2> https://shed.bike/ :)

eprodrom: i don't think we are going to come up with an agreed upon list before lunch and i want to eat

sandro: other idea is to add these to the repos and remove any unused ones after a month

shevski: we could vote like on the voice
... i think that list is too long, i'd be interested to know which are the most important
... I wouldn't know what are the most important ones

eprodrom: can i suggest moving this to a wiki page and edit it down there?

aaronpk: i would need a description of what each of these are and what they are all needed for
... maybe we just start with a list of these as the official list and if i need to add it, i look up the list and add it as needed to github

sandro: i can give you the CURL to add those with those colors

aaronpk: that does not sound like a lot of work for me
... without these labels the editor has a lot more work
... these labels would help other people to work on the spec

eprodrom: when do we move our repos under the w3c space on github?

tantek: its not a requirement

sandro: i'll add something of a description of them all to the wiki with their colors

tantek: i'm happy to add what i think is important of these

AnnBass: i printed out and ran through editorial changes for the 3 specs on the reading list

i'll give those to editors

Action sandro to add labels to the wiki with short description of each

<trackbot> Created ACTION-87 - Add labels to the wiki with short description of each [on Sandro Hawke - due 2016-03-23].

<annbass_> Jasnell: I have a paper print of AS, with a few "English" edits ... Would it work for me to give it to Arnaud next week, to give to you?

<annbass_> (Paper is easier for me to edit in this manner, than online ... For making suggestions to you)

<wilkie> reconvene at 1pm

tantek: we are on lunch until 1pm to do as2 validator and taking as2 to CR both of which are led by evan so i'll chair and then we can swap off for the rest of the day

<Loqi> I added a countdown for 3/16 1:00pm (#5815)

<jasnell_> hey, sorry, got pulled away for a bit

<jasnell_> annbass_ : I'm not likely to see arnaud soon, but if you'd like to scan and email me a copy I'll make the edits

<annbass_> Seems like a lottaa

<annbass_> Whoops ... A lotta pages to scan ... Maybe give me your snail mail address in private, and I'll do that?

<annbass_> (23 pages)

<Loqi> Tantekelik made 2 edits to [[Socialwg/2016-03-16]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=97752&oldid=97738

<Loqi> Sandro made 1 edit to [[Socialwg/2016-03-16]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=97755&oldid=97752

<aaronpk> Arnaud: can you hear now?

<Arnaud> nope

<Arnaud> in the meantime I tried another computer and had the same results so I'm pretty sure the problem isn't on my side

<aaronpk> just refreshed. now?

<Arnaud> yes, it works!

<Arnaud> thanks

<Arnaud> hi :)

<tantek> eprodrom is getting setup to demo the AS2 validator

<tantek> we need a scribe for the afternoon

<tantek> thanks cwebber2 for scribing

<tantek> scribe: cwebber2

<ben_thatmustbeme> scribenick: cwebber2

<Arnaud> thanks aaronpk!

<Arnaud> the sound is actually pretty good

<aaronpk> great

Demo: Activity Streams 2.0 Validator (Evan Prodromou)

<aaronpk> you can hear evan okay? he's on the opposite side of the room as the mic

<Arnaud> very well

eprodrom: well I'll get started then. The point of this demonstration from a pull-back, one of the things we have to do as we bring AS2 to recommendation is have a test suite. But one question is what that means for a document format specification. We've taken it to mean two parts
... 1 a set of document formats that we expect consumers to consumes, that's in the activitystreams-test-documents, composed of examples from AS Core and Vocabulary specifications, as well as jasnell's javascript stuff for AS2
... it's about 100 documents, maybe 200
... a number of different documents
... our expectation is those writing consumer implementations should be able to consume this, and if their thing explodes they know they have a problem
... so it's a fairly low impact test suite for consumers

sandro: it's 200

eprodrom: 200 docs, thanks. on public side we need to validate ? so we decided to build a validator
... so this is a way to test your documents. the as2 validator is written in node.js, canonical version at as2.rocks, if there's a reason to run another version we can do that too, software is under w3c software license

<eprodrom> https://github.com/w3c-social/activitystreams-validator/issues/11

sandro: it's not linked from as2.rocks

eprodrom: I'll drop it on irc (^^-- above)
... 2 ways to submit to validator: paste the URL into the URL area; if you see there's things at GitHub let's get the raw version of documents
... there are bad parts, I think it's served as plaintext, but let's just say we've got this
... when we hit the url we see this validation report, we see that it's from one of the example documents
... I'm not crazy about this reports, there are 3 errors which I think is too high, but I think it's a way to do that submission
... the problem is that we've got several objects in here without a required name property

tantek: is name or name map a must?

eprodrom: yes it's a MUST
... it's one thing that comes up, it's a MUST with few examples in the spec
... the other thing that we could do here is to copy paste it in here, take this same document, copy pasta, run another validation
... and it'll run validation again
... you can also upload a file, so you can say hey look, I'm in the test documents, how useful, upload that, validate it
... and there we go. lastly, you can use the validate endpoint as an api endpoint and via your fave programming language or curl on the command line, you can do that
... let me bring up a terminal...
... so this is just a curl command line http client, will shoot it off to the endpoint
... the endpoint returns first a list of notes, similar to what we see in the html interface, also returns the input that it received so you can verify you actually got what you thought you did
... so that is a way to do some validation from the command line... I use this to validate all the documents that are in the test document suite
... so that's a relatively easy shell

sandro: when I try that I get html with a link to the validator

eprodrom: yeah do it with https
... you have to do something to tell curl to do the redirects if you use http
... I think this should follow a lot of the use cases, I think there may be other ones, but api endpoint is kind of a failsafe on the rest
... there are 4 ways to submit a document
... speaking of validation, one of the things that's interesting about AS2 is that it's very permissive. an empty javascript object is a valid AS2 document
... no properties are absolutely property, only one is that you MUST have a name on certain kinds of documents
... despite that, there are some better and worse AS2 docs
... so we might tell users there are things we'd like to see
... I did this by showing a heirarchy of notes
... I'm not sure where this comes from but I know it from syslog style errors... ERROR, WARNING, NOTICE, INFO
... MUST should do error, should should do warning, style issues should be notices or informational, maybe a style thing
... notice is something you should probably change, and info is just info
... this seems to be working pretty well... I've implemented almost all the MUST, most of the SHOULDs, and a few of the MAYs and optional properties I haven't yet followed up on

for most of the properties and thet ypes we have in AS2.0 the domain and range of propertis are if you have an actor for the activity what are the things it could be

scribe: so domain and range of properties, required properties, recommended properties, things allowed and not

sandro: so test documents are those all supposed to be OK documents? or should they be categorized with some as errors, warnings

eprodrom: good question, all of them are "these should work"

sandro: except maybe that one that wasn't ;)

eprodrom: yes maybe that doc or our spec that needs fixing

sandro: it might be nice to manually sort so we can test this

tantek: it's realtively stable at this point, could we add links for all warnings and errors?

eprodrom: good idea

tantek: that way if someone gets an error they can click it to see how to fix it

eprodrom: yeah
... there are two views, you can see submitting or validation report, at the moment it's pretty plain janes but

tantek: can you show url based result again

eprodrom: yes, you can also tell one thing it's not doing here is complaining that it's being served as text/plain, which is one more thing it can do

tantek: that's great, here's a thing you can share

eprodrom: right right
... you can do url=${document location}

tantek: do you have any live sites on the web you can link to

eprodrom: not yet

tantek: valid challenge to working group: who can get a valid stream on their site first

sandro: are there any as1 -> as2 converters

<tsyesika> https://as2.rocks/validate?url=http%3A%2F%2Ftsyesika.se%2Ffeed AS2 document on the web :)

eprodrom: any other questoins?

tantek: mostly that it's awesome
... one nice thing is our discussions are not subject to rfc2019

eprodrom: I'd love help, styling would be nice, I'm not sure, maybe tabs

<Arnaud> I agree, nice progress!

<rhiaro> My photo albums: https://as2.rocks/validate?url=http://img.amy.gy/files/food/food.json

tantek: next topic is taking AS2 to CR, which is also yours eprodrom :)

Taking AS2 to CR (Evan)

eprodrom: what I'd like to do is my understanding is that we had three things we needed to do to get AS2 to CR state
... these three things were to first resolve (blocking) issues, second provide a test suite, third provide a conformance section
... I think as it stands we have first drafts or early versions of those three things
... I may need to confirm that about the issues but at least in terms of test suite we have what we've kind of laid out as in terms of test suite, and we have conformance section in a draft state

tantek: for test suite do you have at least one test per feature of the spec

eprodrom: would that be like for each type in the vocab have on document for each one
... so for properties we have at least one of each
... a property in as2 can't be an empty array for example
... here's a document with an empty array, throw an error

tantek: do you have a test for an assertion for each part of the spec

eprodrom: since we have tests from documentation examples, we have pretty good coverage

tantek: that's ok, having a comprehensive test suite is not a requirement to enter CR (but it is to exit)

sandro: I don't remember what the granularity was

tantek: was it raised as an issue to define granularity

sandro: yes

eprodrom: we went down an interesting path with that one, and it got caught up with the conformance classes

tantek: we have conformance section, have test suite with a lot of cases covered, so that leaves the open issues
... so where are we in open issues

sandro: we have 12, and I won't snark that they aren't labeled ;)
... one of them is editorial but it's not my version of editorial!

eprodrom: we have 12, one is "why is as2 so bloated"

sandro: it has more in the issue than the title sounds like

eprodrom: right
... so we have quite a few here, some are questions, some may be... I'm not sure if we should mark these as blocking or not

<Arnaud> issues like "why is as2 so bloated?" should be closed with a comment stating that this is not actionable, if any particular part is questioned they should be listed in a separate issue

tantek: the question is for you, how much time do you think you need to resolve these, and which of these do you want to ask for some group discussion on to move them forward

<aaronpk> "this is not actionable" is my favorite way to close issues :P

eprodrom: not ready to do that today, I might be able to tomorrow, I'd like to run by james, would be great if we could run from 12 to 6

tantek: or 0

eprodrom: right or 0

tantek: I'd like to get as close as we can to that by end of this meeting
... so given what you said about not willing to categorize, can you be by tomorrow morning?
... we have agenda item scheduling and... we could do that first thing
... or you might come back tomorrow and say you resolved all

eprodrom: ha ha ha

sandro: james may participate remotely, maybe we can get an answer from him about ??

tantek: determine which you need group help for, then can james be present or is he happy to delegate to you about the issues

eprodrom: fine, good

tantek: otherwise will add to agenda for tomorrow morning; go through AS2 issues

eprodrom: with intent to close!

tantek: will block out an hour and a half for that

eprodrom: could I ask for rest of group to look through this? may speed discussion if people understand what topics are

tantek: consider this explicit call for commentary
... some of these like conformance clause you reasonably fixed

eprodrom: yeah we were almost done by last f2f, but then we had f2f explosion with new issues
... this one is interesting can try to take that on today

tantek: every document I've seen has CR exit criteria in spec or include it inline

shevski: why not have it be in the official w3c-social?

aaronpk: it isn't a requirement to do so, some required moving to their own group

<tantek> ack

annbass: question is is there some process where it should go ahead of CR, I could easily see one person's repo goes south or something

tantek: or that's one possible org issue

aaronpk: before github was used more mailing list was only place to do that, but now github is using more
... so I wonder if we should be archiving that discussion

annbass: that might be an advisory board thing

<tantek> There is the W3C-wide document on use of GitHub: https://www.w3.org/wiki/GitHub

tantek: repo issue is possibly helpful

aaronpk: that's possibly useful around patent stuff

tantek: lots of good reasons to do that

<aaronpk> it seems there is not a good answer to the particular question of archiving the github issues discussions

<tantek> break for 10 minutes

<tantek> break until 14:10 EDT

<tantek> Loqi ^^^

<rhiaro> eprodrom: does the validator send an accept header?

<wilkie> come back at 14:10 EDT

<Loqi> I added a countdown for 3/16 11:10am (#5817)

<rhiaro> I could look at the source but it's easier to ask :)

<Loqi> Tantekelik made 2 edits to [[Socialwg/2016-03-16]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=97757&oldid=97755

<Loqi> come back

<Loqi> Countdown set by wilkie on 3/16/16 at 10:59am

<aaronpk> you're the only one on the talky right now anyway :P

<rhiaro> scribe: rhiaro

<ben_thatmustbeme> scribenick: rhiaro


<tantek> chair: eprodrom

Demo of pump.io - mediagoblin federation

tsyesika: this is a predecessor to activitypub, the pumpio as1 stuff
... Going to add a photo onto media goblin and send it to a pump io user
... *does so*

<bengo> so good!

tsyesika: it has federated from mediagoblin to pumpio
... Can post a reply in pumpio
... Back into mediagoblin, the reply should show
... *it does*

Everyone: applause

tsyesika: Coming up in the release after next
... Any questions?

eprodrom: Bravo! Couple of questions..
... How does it work for idfferent media types?
... Media goblin is generous with media types

tyesika: Media goblin has a todo to support video and audio in the api for federation. Currently only images federated
... It will support them in the same way as images. Serialise the video or audio as how as1 defines them, and do the same post request to the inbox

eprodrom: About likes... do they translate to media goblin?
... If you go to the pumpio page and click like on it

tsyesika: they will work by the time I finish mediagoblin
... Things are still a bit broken

eprodrom: What do you think next steps are with this?
... with federation of mediagoblin?

tsyesika: Currently we don't have comments that you make in mediagoblin federated *back*. All activities need to federate and there will be support of like and the others.
... And then probably the media types as you brought up
... One of the reasons media goblin is good is support of media types
... And eventually having a up to date implementation of activitypub

<Loqi> Tantekelik made 1 edit to [[Socialwg/2016-03-16]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=97758&oldid=97757

cwebber2: I think it's interesting for the group to know that tsyesika has been working on this for a long time, and you might wonder why it took so long to get to this point, and I think it would be interesting for you to explain what the challenges are

tsyesika: The overwhelming biggest thing for mediagoblin why it took so long is because of the database structure
... Mediagoblin uses sql, postgres or sqlite, and it was designed prior to federation and the pump api
... having things like comments that can be on other things, comments on comments and other things being in collections, involves creating generic keys
... something something referential integrity
... Lots of challenges implementing federation on an existing implementation

eprodrom: That's a really interesting point, pumpio uses document databases, so couchbase or mongo or redis, but it's relatively easy to wedge little bits of data into places that they weren't intended
... which is harder to do with an sql database

cwebber2: we're theoretically advocating ... and this applies to others.. it's a general problem when you have assumptinos about what types of things are responses to other types of things
... Like comments ony being on media, that was an easy assumption, but the rest of the world might not assume that
... We don't have an answer for constraints in federation
... and this will be a challenge for owncloud as well. We haven't talked about this in the gorup
... How to convert existing applications that were designed before you planned to federate, and move them into the federation wrold
... We're managing it with media goblin thanks to jessica, but not everyone will have the resources for that
... WHat can we do to help people know and prepare fo rdoing this?
... Do we permit organisations to set these kinds of constraints?

Karli: database structure is part of that, but not every social network works the same
... Facebook and g+ and twitter all have apis that work differently
... twitter has obvious limitations with the size of the text, if you can like, if there are comments or retweets which don't exist in other social networks
... It's a huge question. Good to have an api that you can use to model all kinds of social interactions, but does it mena that every social network has to support everything that every other social network supports?
... You could drop things that are not supported

eprodrom: that's probably a great way to handle it
... THere might be other ways to do it too
... You oculd have a little grey image icon 'there is something here I don't understand'
... like a puzzle piece in html documents
... some embedded stuff that doesn't make sense
... pumpio just throws stuff out

tantek: the experience with webmention is that there are situations where having defined fallback behaviour is useful and implementable. And also sometimes just dropping stuff works. Very case by case.
... By starting with.. just get comments working. Suddenly everything else can have a fallback that can be interpreted as a comment
... So when people started doing lieks via webmention, by including a summary in your like that says 'so and so likes this'
... if you understand likes you ignore the summary and just increment your counter or whatever
... but if you don't, you can display it as a comment
... so there's no new implementation needed

Karli: so it's the responsibilty of the consumer to ignore or translate something?

tantek: we didn't have to, because comments were designed in such a way to handle summary/content/etc, that later interactions could provide fallback content like a summary, so that something that only implements comments doesn't have to do anything new

aaronpk: reacji is a great example
... Someone posts a single emoji reply
... Slack formalised the name
... You choose an emoji character as a reply
... you see on github a lot
... You end up with long comment threads full of emoji
... Slack did a thing where they showed the emoji with the number of people who reacted with that
... So we're starting to experiment with that, so ifyou don't do anything an dsomeone posts an emoji reply you show it as a comment, but if you want to you can not show it as a comment you can pull it up and create a counter
... the like example seems trivial becasue everyoen knows what it is, but now it's happening again

cwebber2: one of the things that's interesting about ... you must have started with a database structure that still allows that
... but existing implementatkons like mediagoblin start with databases where it's still difficult to even do fallbacks in that way
... if your table only contains these fields, what do you do as a fallback? If you have hard coded links between tables, you need to be able to make that generic enough to do fallbacks
... In indieweb you have this view that everything is a post and you can adapt that. But other things don't have that assumption in their worldview
... So how do we build on these different world views?
... You would be surprised at the different world views, even trying to be accommodating for fallbacks

tantek: the more you can minimise those assumptions the better

cwebber2: that's not necesarily true for an organisation that already came in iwth its own assumptions

tantek: from a spec point of view. Of course organisations have their own assumptions. But with a spec, the more you can minimise the assumption sthat you're asking peopel to take on, the less work it is to make it compatible

shevski: the problem also is that this stuff is going to continue to evolve
... reactionmojis
... it's going to be really fluid. You don't want want to get into a race of being compatible now, because it's not going to stay around. It needs to be generic and extensible, and quite basic int erms of standards

tantek: we've done both, compatible with now and generic
... the web took off because every single piece was cmpatibile with what already existed
... you could serve html over ftp, or plain text over http

eprodrom: I'd like to bring it back to the pumpio and mediagoblin federation
... There is a lot of pumpio federation process that's kind of string and chewing gum
... THe oauth key discovery process is like from an older version of oauth2 that's no longer compatible
... There's the dial back stuff
... There's the webfinger stuff in there
... And probably other bits, hacked to make them work
... Do you think that where we're going with activitypub is going to .. what's th erelationship with all that stuff and where we're going with activitypub?

tsyesika: good question
... ap at the moment doesn't specify too much of those details
... We've decided oauth2

cwebber2: we were also told not to pick a stance there

tsyesika: so it's vague, so currently they would be incompatible because you can implement oauth2 in several ways

<bengo> <3 OIDC (which is a more specified flavor of oauth2)

tsyesika: the discovery stuff, we do have stuff but we think it will change

cwebber2: we already agreed on some change. We just haven't written yet

<bengo> including discovery, dynamic client registration, etc

tsyesika: so doesn't specify all of that, but as a downside will lead to incompatible implemenations without specifying

cwebber2: do you think there's anything other than auth?

<bengo> Fair. Communities of different size tho

tsyesika: i don't think anything other that's major

cwebber2: that's the big thing that's a known problem. If it's a constraint then it's a constraint

eprodrom: I see two ways of doing that. One is to include authenticaiton and say this is how you get an oauth 2 key in order to make these calls, and here are the steps
... Another way to maintain compatibility is to have a suite of specifications, AP specifically talks about getting your activities back and forth, and then a discovery specification and an authentication specification or something like that, which would be short

cwebber2: I think discovery would be smooth put in there, but authentication I would be enthusiastic about saying there are auxilliary specs, but they might not make it to rec within this group's lifetime, but we have something that we can point people to. I think that's a good route.

eprodrom: this is a lot of trouble to go to to end up with incompatible implementations
... As one of the other people who has done this, I know how much trouble this was
... I'm really impressed
... Any other quesitons?

tantek: how much work would it be to update these implementations to use as2/ap

tsyesika: I don't think.. it's still significant amount of work, but not too bad

cwebber2: lots of things close, major things that are different are.. moving from as1 to as2 is not very hard, but needs to be done.
... We need to change over the way it does discovery
... And ... those are the biggest things
... I think there are a lot more small things, but most things are close

tsyesika: I don't think it's too bad

cwebber2: shouldnt' be as much work as it was to restructure the database

Going to be far less work to get to that point

tantek: When do you think you'll have an implementaiton of the current version of ap?

cwebber2: this depends on resources within the project. We were lucky that we could bring jessica on with a crowdfunding campaign
... now that money is ending and jessica got a job that is supprotive of her work in this group luckily
... But I'm currently at Stripe retreat, but after this we don't know what our resources are. Might be volunteers
... Really hard to say
... THe stuff that you're seeing here is for a release in the next week
... Then we're polishing 1.0, then we'll start moving things towards ap
... That's basically the state of the wrold
... How long that will take... I'm already bad at estimations... so doing that for a project where I have no idea what our resources are, I'm not going to bother

tantek: so you think you can release with this implementation?

cwebber2: yes, with notes that should expect federation stuff to change, and in the interim it will federate with pumpio
... Users are expecting that first stage of federation will be at this level

tantek: maintain back compat?

cwebber2: I'm more worried about authentication for that
... activitystreams stuff is manageable
... Not that worried
... Don't want jessica's work to not get out there
... Really want working federation otu the door

tantek: several generations of frozen federation suites out there that are being left behind. Like diaspora, federating amongst itslef and nobody else. And GNU social. Thousands of users, but not federating with others, only themselves.
... Movement has been slow.
... This is why I'm concerned that if you're going to make a release that includes this work will it end up like one of those, or will it move quickly and break things?

cwebber2: I'm hopi;ng move quickly and break things
... our goal is to support the work in this group
... We've been clear about that with users

<Loqi> can confirm that lunch will be delivered

<Loqi> Countdown set by rhiaro on 3/16/16 at 7:37am

cwebber2: And some people in disapora are paying attention to what we're doing here

eprodrom: Can I challenge us to do a similar demo to this with AP in portland?

cwebber2: We can certainly try
... But it's going to be a tumultuous time in our lives
... We will try, but no promises. Set your expecations accordingly.

Karli: I'm still part outsider.. but at owncloud we want to implement something soon. But we need something that is relatively stable
... That we can see a path.

tantek: what level of breaking new ground vs. interoperating with a few things vs interoperating with a lot ofthings are you comfortable with?

Karli: We already implemented federation for sharing files 1.5 years ago, and several of the steps here
... Version 3 of our api which is backward compatible, and 1.5 years later it's something 'stable' or 1.0
... So no problem with adapting to changes
... But as I understand this group, there are some really different approaches, like activitypub and solid stuff and other approaches, which are completely different
... We can't implement 2 or 3 different approaches

eprodrom: That's a good segue

Demo of micropub CRUD

<Arnaud> it works!

aaronpk: Since the last time we talked I've worked on spec and implementation to support editing and deleting posts
... So I can show the whole workflow
... Quill is a micropub client that I wrote that currently only supports creating
... My website is the micropub server which uspports full CRUD
... And there's a micropub client built into my site
... *creates post in Quill*

<KevinMarks> https://talky.io/socialweb is empty - are you doing demos somewhere else I can see?

aaronpk: *shows Quill output*

*** please hold for technical issues***

*** elevator music ***

<tantek> aaronpk fiddles with talky computer

*** and we're back! ***

<KevinMarks> I can hear, but screen is fuzzy

<KevinMarks> screenshare instead of cam?

aaronpk: So, created a post. It's on my site here

<KevinMarks> I suspect screensharing needs even more RAM than cam

aaronpk: Location sent with browser location api to micropub request

*** everything crashes ***

*** uncrash ***

aaronpk: When I'm logged into my site, I have a menu bar which lets me edit
... Loads a javascript micropub client
... Because I'm logged in my site generates an access token the client can pull out of the page
... I gave myself a couple of fields I commonly want to edit: tags, syndication urls, date
... So I can add tags, hit save
... What's happening is the js app is talking to my micropub endpoint directly, no other serverside componant at all
... *does so*
... In order to populate this interface with existing tags etc, it uses a new part of micropub which is the R in CRUD which lets the client request specific properties
... I don't need to load the entire content of the post to edit
... So it reuqests just the pieces that it needs
... There's no way to edit the text of the post with this interface, don't have a client for thsi yet
... Turns out that I don't often edit the text. Wanted to optimise this for the most common edits
... Do plan on building a full editor for html posts in Quill
... Also have a delete button

<KevinMarks> why is videoconferencing still so flaky? I had this working in 1999 with tiny amounts of RAM and it ran for weeks at a time

<cwebber2> KevinMarks: let's move back to webcams with pages that refresh every 30 seconds on a jpeg link

aaronpk: JS client could drop in with one file. Only special thing is how to get the access token, but I don't see why other people can't reuse it
... I could open source it
... There's not a lot of code
... Here's the micropub request in jquery
... The rest is just ui stuff

<KevinMarks> I'd accept multicast RTP

<KevinMarks> (audio has gone)

<annbass> sigh .. trying to get it going

<annbass> is sound back?

<eprodrom_> jasnell: so, big favour to ask you

<bengo> sound just came on for me

<bengo> talky is good

Demo of events and webmention

<annbass> ok .. arnaud and kevinmarks ... you can hear?

<Arnaud> yes, thanks

aaronpk: Here's a new interface in quill for posting events. Needs cleaning up, but minimal and works
... *posts event*

<KevinMarks> and the gpu just coughed a hirball and blacked out all my browser windows

<KevinMarks> yay, i can hear again

aaronpk: Event posted to my site, and appears in Woodwind, a reader
... The reader recognises that this is an event post and adds these additional rsvp buttons

<annbass> s/clenaing/cleaning/

aaronpk: I authenticated with the reader, and during that process I granted it an access token that lets it become a micropub client to my site
... So when I click a star on a post, it makes a micropub request to my site
... Similarly, when I click an rsvp button it makes an rsvp post on my site
... Also a micropub request
... So I see the rsvp in the events feed on my site
... created in quill, quill added it to my site, woodwind read it from my site, woodwind created a new post to rsvp and posted that to my site

shevski: in what ways can I rsvp to your event?

aaronpk: You can rsvp by writing a post on your site htat's an rsvp post and send a webmention to this page
... and you'll show up in that list

shevski: any other way? Only way is for me to create a post on my site using...?

aaronpk: doesn't matter how you create as long as it iends with with html + microformats

shevski: Why can't I go on your site and click a button?

aaronpk: you want me to host your rsvps?

shevski: or have that as an option
... it's a little hardcore

aaronpk: my site is not a general purpose events site, it's just my site. I also don't have a comments form.

annbass: *trying to send rsvp from known*

dmitriz: is there any access control? Can events be private?

aaronpk: not right now, planning to

dmitriz: haven't had chance to look at the spec, how does the recipient of the webmention discover that is of type event

aaronpk: here's the parsed microformats of the rsvp post. has in-reply-to and rsvp properties
... that's enough that my site recognises that it's an rsvp
... THe event itself looks like this, which has type: h-event, and start and end date
... The post type discovery spec tells you how to get from amicroformats object to something else

dmitriz: you don't have access control on this site, but is there provision for private and public?

aaronpk: what you're talking about would be more on the reading and consuming parts of the spec
... THe way that woodwind found the post, you would need to have a way to authenticate to begin with
... We don't have anything.. woodwind found this via PuSH and polling the feed. There isn't a mechanism in PuSH to support private posts. But it's on the consuming side rather than the micropub side
... Similarly in webmention we need a way to verify things that are private

Demo of rsvp with Falcon

tantek: I have an rsvp post that I"m going to be sending to aaron's event
... **php warnings, blames aaronpk**
... Is showing debugging info about finding webmention endpoints
... posts, reloads aaron's event post
... rsvp is there
... and on my site
... and on twitter
... using twitter's proprietary api

eprodrom: 20 minute break to recharge
... (recharge parking meter / people)

<wilkie> reconvene at 3:40pm EDT

<Loqi> I added a countdown for 3/16 12:40pm (#5818)

<aaronpk> Arnaud: haha i never considered that!

<aaronpk> is it not used as a verb in french?

<jasnell> eprodrom_: favor?

<KevinMarks> well the R part is the verb Respondez S'il Vous Plait - "respond if it pleases you"

<KevinMarks> but RSVP becomes a noun, and then a verb becasue that's how English imports external code

<Loqi> reconvene

<Loqi> Countdown set by wilkie on 3/16/16 at 12:18pm

<eprodrom_> jasnell: so, the only thing keeping us from voting to take AS2 to CR is that there are a number of open issues on the repo

<jasnell> ok, I weighed in on most of them

<jasnell> just need to know how the WG chooses to resolve those

<eprodrom_> Perfect

<eprodrom_> So, the favor was, "Please weigh in on them by tomorrow morning so we have an idea where you stand."

<eprodrom_> It's likely that unless there's some intense debate tomorrow we'll default to resolving per your recommendation

<Arnaud> re: RSVP, KevinMarks got it right :)

<aaronpk> is "RSVP" as an abbreviation used in french?

<Arnaud> it's also that it seems to be used both for the question and the response in english, that's the most confusing part to me

<Arnaud> yes, it is used as an abbreviation but only at the bottom of an invitation or something like that

<aaronpk> ah yes. in english I would send you an RSVP

<shevski> https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/DocumentStatus

<Arnaud> in French RSVP is merely used as the prompt/question

demo of rsvps

<Arnaud> then you would just talk about "responses"

ben_thatmust: *shows rsvp demo, same as aaronpk's*
... Now a reactji - emoji response
... post with a single emoji in it is the original post
... but the response shows as a count
... *it is a poop*
... A bunch of others from testing

eprodrom: it's not a different post type, it's just ap ost that has a single emoji? So you're looking in the content?

ben_thatmust: yes, I'm parsing out if it's a single emoji. Much harder than I expected
... An emoji is a bunch of characters, or two letters that form a flag, which is a single emoji
... Any questions?
... *annbass attempts to send poopji*

<tantek> annbass, can you post a reply?

<Loqi> reconvene

<Loqi> Countdown set by wilkie on 3/16/16 at 9:03am

Owncloud demo

<eprodrom_> "*it is a poop*"

<wilkie> Loqi: what is that

<Loqi> Eprodrom made 1 edit to [[Socialwg/2016-03-16]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=97759&oldid=97758

Karli: owncloud is not technically a social network
... First, install owncloud server - unzipping a file
... update some permissions
... and voila
... lots in to userdatamanifesto.org/owncloud
... can deploy anywhere that supports php
... desktop and mobile clients are synchronised for files and favourites, comments, tags
... Owncloud is not social in itself, its for protecting my own files

<tantek> For the logs, my federated RSVP permalink from my demo: http://tantek.com/2016/076/t2/going-to-w3c-social-web-working-group

Karli: you can have calendar, contacts, gallery, all kinds of things
... So now we have two servers, we can do federation
... Can share calendar etc with other pepole, uses caldav
... calendar is one of the most popular owncloud use cases these days
... here's a folder of documents with an example .odt file

<aaronpk> webmention implementations were: Falcon (sending), p3k's Telegraph (sending), webmention.io (receiving), ben.thatmustbe.me (sending and receiving)

Karli: here is the sharing side bar, can share with people on the same server, or I can send out links to everyone, or I can do federation
... For federation I type in a federation ID which is a host name + a username
... so I can now do federation with a user on another server

<aaronpk> micropub implementations were: p3k (server), Quill (client), Woodwind (client), ben.thatmustbe.me (server and client)

Karli: one server pings the other server and says here is a sharing request
... on the other server, it shows a notification which lets me accept the sharing request
... and then I have... maybe... or not...
... I have the documents folder shared between the two servers
... The actual transfer of the files is done via webdav
... but we had to come up with our own protocol for the invitation process
... so this was implemented 1.5 years ago. Nowadays solid does stuff here that could have been resused but wasn't because of timing
... The social part is then if you click on this shared folder the sidebar opens, which lets you comment
... which is visible to everyone with access to this file
... and there's an activitystream which lets you see what's happening with this folder. New files, comments, changes
... And there's an overall activity feed where I can see everything that's going on on my server

sandro: does the activity feed live on the same server as the file?

Karli: yes

sandro: so if 100 people share a file, there's one feed?

Karli: everyone with access to a file or folder also sees the activity on this file or folder

sandro: if I make a comment it's sent back to the server where the file is

Karli: this is the part that's missing. We do everything with webdav. Sharing information including comments via webdav
... We could just read comments from remote servers via webdav
... but if there's a different appraoch we would implement that

dmitriz: how do yu handle permissions and access control?

Karli: if you go on a folder, sharing, there are different ways to share
... you can password protect links, allow expiry, allow read only
... expiration date google announced yesterday, but we had for 5 years

dmitriz: HAH

Karli: Other people can delete files, or add a new file in a shared folder

dmitriz: where do you store access control information?

Karli: filesystem for storing files, metadata including access control in database
... can be sqlite or mysql or postgres
... So not a social network, we're approaching this from a different direction
... Idea was for file hosting. But of course I want to share my files with someone
... But without uploading it to a social network
... All this sharing information is also present on the desktop clients
... communicates via rest api with the server to initate the sharing request with the server

shevski: if something is shared do they get a copy? what if they both change at the same time?

Karli: on the desktop and mobile side we do bi-directional syncing
... does conflict detection and you might get a conflict file if necessary
... but the federation is not synced, it's a live connection
... We have implemented our own api for the activity feed but we want to do the next version with AS2
... Means we will implement desktop and mobile clients for consuming as2

cwebber2: we should talk about if... the challenging thing with the database that we talked about.. the upload media stuff we should talk about. We have some vague discussion fo that in AP but needs work
... I'd be interested to see the direction and work together on that

Karli: Another thing from a strategic perspective.. a lot of people see owncloud as a dropbox replacement
... But I think this will evolve into a social network
... We have 8 million users
... so kind of a trojan horse

sandro: how many companies run servers?

Karli: the biggest installation that we are involved with is for half a million for universities in German
... But we just learnted that there's an installation in India with 1.1 million users
... Scaling is actually quite easy based on web technologies


sandro: dinner at 6, any objections?


shevski: I thought the status doc would be upated and we could just review it
... but it hasn't. Maybe we need to go over what we're tryign to do with it and who is going to update what

tantek: what's it for?

shevski: The idea was to partly start thinking about what are the next steps to get to CR for various things, and what do we need for the implementationr eport
... and what can we do in the time we have to grow adoption for any of these things
... Fulfilling process requirements and also the wider problem of getting more users and implementations?

tantek: it has links to implemenations?

<hhalpin> Where's the links to existing implementations?

shevski: it doesn't at the moment

sandro: webmention has a link

<aaronpk> https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/DocumentStatus

eprodrom: we have 2 things. One is documeting implementations, and one next steps

sandro: this is the link to all the other documents
... trying to get peopel to focus on what happens next

eprodrom: I think us as chairs need it to see what to do to push things forward

sandro: we could just talk about this for as2 right now at least for a few minutes
... I don't think we've wrapped up next steps for as2

<tantek> we already have a list of our documents on our home page: https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg#Drafts - no need for a separate page

eprodrom: Let's take til 1630 to discuss listing implementations and maintaining the list from hereon
... and from 1630 to 17-1730 discussing next steps for documents

tantek: I want to kill the document status page because I think it's useless and busy work
... We already have drafts on our homepage
... s/drafts/links to drafts

<hhalpin> We should have a page that lists implemenations per spec

<hhalpin> Given that we have soooo many specs right now

eprodrom: the purpose of this document status was leading up to this meeting, it's value goes down now we're at the meeting. We cna just talk about it

<hhalpin> The rest of the material on the page is busywork

<hhalpin> However, the list of implementations is super-important for CR exit

sandro: I find this useful to see status of documents, I don't mind where

aaronpk: what status do you mean?

<tantek> if you're editing a draft, please update https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg#Drafts with a link to your Issues page

<hhalpin> (just to repeat what I said above)

aaronpk: WD or other major ones, what are they?

eprodrom: let's take 10 minutes per draft and takl about next steps

<hhalpin> +1

eprodrom: For editors can say what they're doing, and people with experience of rec process can say what we're shooting for next

<aaronpk> just added links to issues for webmention and micropub

sandro: the output of this conversaiton si not documented anywhere besides the minutes

eprodrom: could we put this in github?

sandro: see what they are first?

eprodrom: start with AS2

AS2 status report

eprodrom: Big next steps are test suite, conformance section, and closing recent issues
... In december we were almost all closed but now we have more
... But we are going to try to close those tomorrow morning
... Hopefully we can close them quickly, most will have editor's recommendation for next steps
... Unless there's strong debate we can probably move fast. Not that I'm discouraging debate.
... At which point it's possible we could vote to transition to CR in this meeting
... Then we would publish a new updated version based on the decisions that are made tomorrow morning
... one last editorial pass, then have something ready to go to cr
... If the group says we do x, implementors implement x, and we probably on't need another vote
... Or we could do editorial and then a round of review
... Or we say the editorial is implementing what we decided and we can go to CR
... That might be a decision to make tomorrow

tantek: How many implementations do we have of current activitystreams drafts?

cwebber2: one in activipy and half in the guile one

eprodrom: I was just making a list on the activitystreams implementation page and I count 4.5
... java, javascript, activipy, validator which okay that's cheating, and..

tantek: why is it cheating?

eprodrom: is it an implementation or an implementation tool?

tantek: implementation

eprodrom: then we're at 4.5

<eprodrom_> https://www.w3.org/wiki/Activity_Streams#Implementations

hhalpin: helpful to have a big page with all implementations
... with implementations that are either conformant or planning to be

<tantek> https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg#Drafts

<eprodrom_> rhiaro: oh, now I feel like a jerk

<cwebber2> eprodrom, added!

<Loqi> Aaronpk made 1 edit to [[Socialwg]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=97761&oldid=97711

eprodrom: doesn't matter, will ask later :)

<Loqi> Eprodrom made 1 edit to [[Socialwg/DocumentStatus]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=97762&oldid=97698

<Loqi> Sandro made 1 edit to [[Socialwg]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=97763&oldid=97761

<sandro> https://www.w3.org/2003/08/owl-systems/test-results-out

sandro: As we get to having the validator on the test suite for something like as2 it would be nice to see the implementations look more like this (matrix with tests and validations), for each document does it pass it, and results

<sandro> as example

sandro: A list is nice early, but by the time we have a test suite we should have more detail about conformance
... And then what's the process for getting peopel to give us results

eprodrom: for pumpio I could maybe take links for kinds of feeds on a pumpio site and link to each of those and say if they validate
... these are the kinds of feeds that we generate

sandro: I guess actually what I want is depending on the feature granularity
... is there a feed from that implementation that uses that feature

eprodrom: we need to move our implementation pages from we implement this to implementation reports

sandro: we could borrow something from other groups or roll our own
... An action item on someone who's willing to do it?

tantek: until we have a test suite we don't need this. First step, make a test suite

sandro: needs to be soon though

eprodrom: test reports to exit cr

tantek: which implementations are testable?
... a library is not really testable
... no working group I know of has used a library to exit cr
... not an implementation for any workign group I've been involved in

sandro: don't do universal generalisations

<eprodrom_> sandro: B-)

shevski: what are the formal requirements for w3c implementation report?
... I'm interested in demonstrating genuine adoption

<tantek> /me sandro isn't that a universal generalization? ;)

shevski: I don't think something should become a standard if only 3 people care about it
... If we have 5 different things we need to start talking to peopel and lining up implementations or maybe there is already 100s of peopel and companies using it
... Things in the wild

<hhalpin> I would suggest adding an estimate on the number of users per implementation.

shevski: Stuff people can be interested in, like mooncake which thoughtworks built which displays activitystreams from varous sources, they have demos, good to list user friendly things so people can see what it looks like
... so if people are looking at as2 and deciding, they can see if they want to use it

<cwebber2> hhalpin, did mooncake use the java library of AS2 or have its own

<tantek> +1

<cwebber2> hhalpin, is that another implementation?

<hhalpin> I think they re-coded it using Clojure

eprodrom: if we look at previous implementations for as2 that's definitely an outreach process and we do have a little bit of a psychological advantage to ahving 2.0, we can ask people when they're going to upgrade

<hhalpin> So you *may* have another implementation there.

eprodrom: 'why are you using the old version'?
... good pressure with a version number
... but that is a contact process
... and that might be a next step is to be reaching out

shevski: whose responsibility is it to do that? Editors for each draft?

<hhalpin> That being said, I'm not sure if they have any users per se. There was supposed to be 3 pilots: Iceland, Finland, Spain - I think Finland is interested.

sandro: we're not there yet

shevski: but for initial implementaton report?

tantek: that's produced *during* CR

<hhalpin> Email Jaako Korhonon re Finland and Natalie from Thoughtworks via Clojure details, I've been removed by W3C/ERCIM from D-CENT for almost a year so not tracking :)

eprodrom: definitely a snowball effect of seeing implementations listed

hhalpin: think it would be useful.. we don't test how many users something has.. assume it has users, not ask how many. That being said, users are good. Even though it's not formally part of the process should be something the wg takes into account
... So eg. per library list code bases that use it
... Keep track of how many users each implementation has
... Would help for people looking in from outside to see what the state of play is

<sandro> https://kangax.github.io/compat-table/es6/ and http://caniuse.com/

sandro: Looking at two other implementation reports. I don't think we shoudl worry about w3c, but what the users want
... see ^

<hhalpin> Yes, but caniuse doesn't measure "users" :)

<hhalpin> We assume all these browsers have users.

<hhalpin> Its harder in this case

sandro: Tells users what they can use to get to use as2

<wilkie> doesn't it measure browser market share?

sandro: if it's good enough for users it's good enough for w3c

<hhalpin> Still, adding guess user numbers helps

sandro: but it's a lot of work
... that includes covering extensions in theory, that's where it really starts to pay off

<Zakim> tantek, you wanted to comment on we need to start talking to people and lining up implementations or maybe there is already 100s of people and companies using it

<Loqi> Aaronpk made 1 edit to [[Socialwg]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=97767&oldid=97763

sandro: how many consumers consume this extension so should I produce it

<hhalpin> So, in theory in some of the SemWeb space (GRDDL comes to mind) I've seen stuff with users numbering in less than a dozen go to Rec, but I think W3C is discouraging that kind of thing.

tantek: I agree that listing things that are accesible to users is a good thing
... Good to list user friendly things so people can see what it looks like, as shevski said
... Before we ask anyone outside this WG to implement something, I would like to see implementations by people in this wg

<hhalpin> Typically a WG converges, then we do a call for implementations. Its a bit odd to do a call for implementation without some convergence!

tantek: For each draft, at least one. I think we're close to that
... I would hope we have an implementation from the group we can point to

sandro: I would hope the editors would have some implementation

cwebber2: and also with actual code

shevski: so people can see 'that is the kind of thing I want in my app, I will use this spec'
... so get a sense of something working

eprodrom: implementation and advocacy is going to become a very big issue before we go to cr
... right now we're collecting lists, next step is to collect test results as well as outreach

<ben_thatmustbeme> https://wordpress.org/plugins/activitystream-extension/

eprodrom: may be something we should start in the next few weeks
... but post CR, does that sound fair?

tantek: what do we need to take things to CR, then once we're in CR what do we need to do to exit?
... A test report is not required to enter CR
... For implementations,t hat's up to the wg to decide
... how much implementation verification do we want internally before we are comfortable taking something to cr
... we have a few implementations including a validator that anyone can try. We can make some claim like the validator implements 90% of AS2
... Then we can tell people that when we enter CR, to help encourage more
... Hopefully an example for those spec to follow
... If we have implementations from editors, 90%, 50% of the spec, that is useful to include as part of going to CR

Social web protocls

<bengo> err

<bengo> I can hear sounds but not really Amy

<rhiaro> Needs catching up with current state of specs it talks about

eprodrom: what's our intention with publication?

<rhiaro> Note is fine

sandro: remaining flexible depending on contents

shevski: seems like a primer

<Loqi> Tantekelik made 1 edit to [[Socialwg]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=97768&oldid=97767

eprodrom: we're shooting for another version in early april and will iterate on a regular basis over the coming months
... .. Webmention

aaronpk: A few more issues that I wasn't able to close myself, would like to go through those tomorrow
... With those resolved I feel like things are stable enough that there are no major blocking issues and plenty of implementations..

tantek: how many?

aaronpk: there's a list on the document. dozens? There are two roles, sending and receiving. I believe it's dozens of each
... it is documented in the spec
... enough where I feel like things are working fine
... The next thing I want to do is work on a test suite so there are tools for peopel to test their implementations on both sides
... interactive validators basically
... a lot already exists as small utilities

sandro: the small utitlities haven' treally poked the edge cases right?
... like where the endpoint is discovered?a

aaronpk: some test for xss for example, so they'll send you a webmention with a script hyou should be filtering out. kind of adjacent to the spec itself as the spec doesn't say you have to show a comment on a post

tantek: do you have a privacy and security section?

aaronpk: minimal, could be expanded

tantek: could expand to answer the privacy and security questionnaire from the TAG
... currently optional part of specs
... AB and TAG are gathering experience with it, but if you're not sure what to say about security and privacy this is one way of expanding

<ben_thatmustbeme> https://w3ctag.github.io/security-questionnaire/

<ben_thatmustbeme> i'm guessing its that aaronpk

dmitriz: From what I remember from AS2 and AP specs the security and privacy ocnsiderations sections used language with 'must provide x level of privacy' and so on: how is that testable?
... how can we enforce that?

tantek: how that plays into conformance requirements is a separate qusetion

eprodrom: probably unenforceable
... very difficult to test whether someone has considered something

hhalpin: testing privacy is hard
... there are ways, but they're not part of w3c test suite or well understood, basically research projects, maybe in the future
... obvious things like breaks same origin policiy we can note that
... Point on social web protocols.. seems like we're not going to converge... If we don't converge and we have this document saying there are 3 things
... And if someone has the spare time to shim between these formats
... if such a shim existed that would make SWP more useful

<rhiaro> some parts are easy to shim, some overlap completely, some not

Karli: would be desireable to have an overlap
... instead of trying to solve it like a failed attempt with a library

eprodrom: there are some formulations we could use to define it. It's an interesting question but I want to bring us back to document status

aaronpk: Beyond testing, I would like to know what is then expected of me as the editor or us as the group to move forward
... Reading the w3c process documents is overwhelming, so what is the human readable version of the next step?

<hhalpin> Note that Test the Web Forward stuff doesn't apply here

aaronpk: Assuming we close issues and build a test suite, what's left?

<hhalpin> But basically, the Process Doc is pretty easily explained and its legal to publish different documents.

eprodrom: then we have the decision of whether we're going to publish one, two or some convergence

<hhalpin> As long as they can all fulfill CR

<hhalpin> That being said, it would obviously be more desirable to have a convergence

eprodrom: We resolved to move them all forward with no dependencies

tantek: we should ask the same things as as2 of every other draft

eprodrom: test suite, conformance section

tantek: just want to be consistent

aaronpk: conformance is already in there
... oh no, micropub has it, not webmention
... okay, will do that
... if it applies to every spec can we put this list somewhere?

<sandro> https://services.w3.org/xslt?xmlfile=https://www.w3.org/2005/08/01-transitions.html&xslfile=https://www.w3.org/2005/08/transitions.xsl&docstatus=cr-tr

sandro: webmention is simple enough we can say 2 complete senders and 2 complete receivers
... exit criteria is 2 implementations of each feature

tantek: define what 'feature' means
... sandro said sending and receiving are features, but you said features break downmore

aaronpk: features like updates and deletes
... existing implementations are various overlapping subsets


cwebber2: I dont' know if we need to leave owen on there, should we remove him because he's not a current editor?

sandro: make him an author or former editor

cwebber2: we can do that
... In terms of things that are next, we have a list of actionable bugs
... Might be useful to use some call time
... Some I've been stuck
... Issues are slow
... Easier to go through on a call
... I think we'll make a lot of changes
... I'd also like to work on implementations
... So we can test the federation stuff works the way that we expect it to
... Media goblin is a good option
... Maybe somebody in the pumpio community will jump on it
... Possibly something smaller

<eprodrom_> https://wordpress.org/plugins/activitystream-extension/changelog/ !!!!!!!!!!!

cwebber2: Bugs, then implementations, then the whole conversation about conformance

<eprodrom_> "1.1.0 initial AS2 feed (beta)"

cwebber2: I probably will need guidence
... As for worrying about the test suite, I'd like to do that after the implementations are at a certain stage, so we know what we're testing

<ben_thatmustbeme> eprodrom_ cool!

eprodrom: work on bugs, do a new version, get review, then start talking about test suite?

cwebber2: I'd like to see implementations before test suite
... I don't think test driven makes sense for standards, when you don't know what you're pushing forward

<cwebber2> - close actionable bugs

<cwebber2> - work on implmentations (1 or ideally 2)

<cwebber2> - conformance section and security considerations

<cwebber2> - test suite

<KevinMarks> surely you will write tests as you write implementations; the question is if you can generalize them

<cwebber2> KevinMarks, quite probably, you probably heard what I just said :)

<Loqi> Tantekelik made 1 edit to [[Socialwg]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=97769&oldid=97768

<cwebber2> - and exit cr in between the last two

cwebber2: having a mniinmal implementation that includes tests would be good

eprodrom: date for next version of ap?
... may?

cwebber2: ...sure, mid-may


aaronpk: Add privacy and security section
... conformance is already there
... make a plan for building test suites
... That doesn't go in the spec right?

tantek: yeah

aaronpk: CR exit criteria
... And several combinations of things in micropub spec, multiple kinds of server and client implementations
... A server or a client does not have to support all features, so there are many different kinds of valid implementations
... Would like to publish another update of this before asking for it to go to cr

tantek: Also for all, identify what you consider at risk

<cwebber2> rhiaro, cool

tantek: Once you have figured out what the features are, among that set of features decide if there are any that you consider at risk
... If you think it's too new or you're not confident in it, label any of them (preferably not all) at risk and let the wg know
... people in wg, if you object to a feature file issues or ask for it to be put at risk. Or if you think a feature is essential you can argue against putting at risk
... Editors can say what you consider at risk and why
... Or you can say none ofthem are at risk
... The effect on the process is that if you get to the end of the cr period you can drop at risk features without having to publish another draft

<Arnaud> I agree with Tantek, At Risk is a powerful mechanism but I would invite anyone to make suggestions/requests

<Arnaud> this is not limited to editors

tantek: when can we expect a new draft of micropub?

aaronpk: both of them by april 8th at the latest, hopefully earlier

tantek: if you dont' meet all requirements for cr, you can still publish another wd immediately
... for all drafts
... if you're resolved issues
... close to 0

aaronpk: in that case I will propose to publish a new draft on the 29

on the next call

cwebber2: issue closing party

post type discovery

tantek: I have had issues finding the time to convert that into the proper format to publish so I need help
... I don't have a godo workflow for editing that draft on the wiki then turning that into a form that I can publish on w3c

annbass: what's involved with converting it?

tantek: if you use respec it expects a certain syntax
... which is not mediawiki

<eprodrom_> http://blog.fuzzy.io/?feed=as2

tantek: so either I have to manuall convert it every time, or convert it once and keep it in sync, or give up on the wiki and just use github
... I was hoping I could pipe the wiki page into the publication process and have it work

hhaplin: when people have edited specs in wikis in the past... it's possible..
... you just have to put effort in to convert, but it's a lot of work

tantek: I could iterate on issues and close them next
... in editors draft
... would be pgoress before trying to do conversion

eprodrom: and what form would help take?
... you want a coeditor, or general participation in wiki editing?

tantek: looking for suggestions in conversion process
... wiki is good for iterating, but not for publishing
... Open for suggestions
... If I have to convert to respec in github then fine, but I'm looking for suggestions

eprodrom: any other questions?
... If not, we are at the end of our agenda. Pretty impressed.

tantek: worth spending a couple of minutes on bringing up other docs we had as editors drafts

<tantek> https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg#Drafts

tantek: Action Handles
... Handlers
... was separated from as2
... only broken links

<KevinMarks> Action handlers is a broken link

<trackbot> Error finding 'handlers'. You can review and register nicknames at <http://www.w3.org/Social/track/users>.

tantek: Not sure what happened to it. I think we have enough work, so we drop this as a work item?
... Not to say we ban it, but fo rnow we admit that nobody is actively working on it
... If someone wants to bring it back they can do that in the future
... But for now we can move it from the list of drafts
... jasnell is not here so I want to give him a week to pipe up

<Arnaud> It's ok

<Arnaud> jasnell won't oppose this motion

cwebber2: we should put it on the table and mail the list

ben_thatmust: we can resolve to remove it and bring up objections in the next telecon

<cwebber2> ah well then Arnaud :)

<cwebber2> easy!

<tantek> PROPOSED: Drop Action Handlers Editor's Draft from our list of working group drafts, without prejudice

<wilkie> +1

<cwebber2> +1

<bengo> +1

<aaronpk> +1

<ben_thatmustbeme> +1

<eprodrom_> +1

<sandro> +1


<KevinMarks> +1

<annbass> /me I like the "without prejudice" bit

<dmitriz> +1

<tsyesika> +1

RESOLUTION: Drop Action Handlers Editor's Draft from our list of working group drafts, without prejudice

tantek: the other one is jf2

ben_thatmust: I have not had much time due to personal small people reasons to work on this
... I certainly would like to see something of this go to a note, because I think it's been useful and it's standardising several implementations that are using json formats of microformats
... but I don't have the time to push that toward a rec

sandro: is it dependant on microformats?

aaronpk: I have found it useful for dealing with apis and services that use micropub and webmention, it sort of sits in th emiddle of everything and is used by both of thise, but I don't need to normatively refernece it as a spec, but ti has been useful in building implementations
... that's how I have some iterations of the document that I have been taling to ben about but haven't been updated or anything
... but it's been useful
... but I don't need to tie the specs to it
... I could if it was there, but

tantek: what do you need to do as editor to produce a working draft towards a note?

<Arnaud> sorry, I've got to go - see you

ben_thatmust: I don't know
... definitely needs editorial changes
... it's difficult because I'm definining the spec without the vocabulary. Trying to say was written with microformats in mind but you could apply any vocab to it

aaronpk: the more useful parts I"ve found are tied to the vocabulary

<KevinMarks> microformats2 parsing doesn't define a vocabulary either

aaronpk: Using as this is the one way to represent a blog post or an author with the microformats vocabulary
... Useful to me whether or not it's a spec

<KevinMarks> I did a generic mf2 to jf2 converter

tantek: if you want to take it to note we can make this intention clear up front
... so we can plan for that as a group
... non rec track draft
... When do you think it will be in good enough shape to publish as a non rec track draft

ben_thatmustbeme: I need some time to work on it
... Can say... april

<eprodrom_> sandro: So, there's a WordPress plugin that implements AS2

eprodrom: time to wrap up. Any other agenda items that we need to address before the end of the day?

<sandro> dinner is 6:15 http://www.opentable.com/atasca

<aaronpk> sandro++

<Loqi> sandro has 30 karma

<sandro> (dinner isn't sponsored)

eprodrom: Agenda for tomorrow
... tomorrow afternoon, can go through issues that editors want to bring to the group

aaronpk: I do have issues on wm and mp that I would like to discuss

<Loqi> Tantekelik made 1 edit to [[Socialwg/2016-03-16]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=97771&oldid=97759

aaronpk: Not many, like 2 on mp 4 on wm

eprodrom: I'll update agenda
... FIN

<KevinMarks> St Patricks Day in Boston?

<KevinMarks> I would think so

<bengo> night yall enjoy dinner

<Loqi> Eprodrom made 1 edit to [[Socialwg/2016-03-16]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=97772&oldid=97771

<Loqi> Tantekelik made 1 edit to [[Socialwg/2016-03-16]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=97773&oldid=97772

<eprodrom_> I'm running late; there by 10:15.

<tantek> good morning #social - my ETA this morning is 10:05ish. If y'all are ready to go, have eprodrom get us started!

<Loqi> Rhiaro made 1 edit to [[Socialwg/2016-03-16]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=97774&oldid=97773

<tantek> updated: https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/2016-03-16

<tantek> specifically: https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/2016-03-16#March_17

<tantek> trackbot, start meeting

<trackbot> Meeting: Social Web Working Group Teleconference

<trackbot> Date: 17 March 2016

<tantek> scribe: wilkie

<tantek> chair: tantek

tantek: if nobody thinks of any other agenda items, this is all for today. which seems reasonable
... how many issues do things have?

aaronpk: 4

sandro: and micropub?

aaronpk: no issues that need discussion. just a couple of pull requests.

<Loqi> Tantekelik made 1 edit to [[Socialwg/2016-03-16]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=97775&oldid=97774

annbass: I have a comment. The socialwg interest group has always been considering what it is they are do. it is still an open question if we need such a group.
... My suggestion is to move the IG to be a Community Group (CG), so that anyone in the world can participate, without being a W3C member or Invited Expert. I suggest the main goal of the CG might be to collect additional social use cases that we haven't thought of, especially from people who haven't participated before, or who are from cultural environments we personally haven't experienced.
... so I do think there are use cases we aren't aware of.

tantek: do you want some time to talk about that?

<dmitriz> @rhiaro - there is an issue open for what you mentioned, in fact, https://github.com/w3c-social/activitystreams-validator/issues/16

annbass: yes.
... Also, I am now co-chairing the W3C Positive Work Environment Task Force (PWET) with Amy van der Hiel. Our interest in the consortium is to make a good place to work and so I would like some feedback, public or private, about the w3c and what could improve.
... the challenges haven't been where I thought they would be

tantek: such as?

annbass: you would think about diversity and such but the problems have been mainly technical

tantek: and some social interactions

<Loqi> Tantekelik made 1 edit to [[Socialwg/2016-03-16]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=97776&oldid=97775

annbass: yeah

tantek: that's a problem that has made it up fairly far in the organization

annbass: how we can address that is something worth discussing

tantek: yeah, there is what you could say is w3c's broad tolerance for different social behaviors.
... which are obstacles to technical discussion and finding solutions. so if we could find solutions to that.

annbass: yeah, and certainly there are people who have a problem with this. such as women or quieter people who have a problem with people who are strongly argumentative and vocal.

shevski: which is what tantek was saying. those people can be disruptive and at times bullies.
... the problem is when nothing happens to those people visibly, then people see that and say 'I don't want to be involved. this is not a safe space.'

annbass: me too. I see that and I try and then I say "nah, I'm done"

tantek: and you've seen that at the highest

annbass: I'm not sure about that. But we've all seen it in various situations. What can we do to improve?

shevski: a code of conduct is what you do

annbass: we have one

tantek: it's a rather new thing

annbass: no, it has been there for 10 years I think
... but also, what we have to do is maybe training

Karli_: the problem with a code of conduct is that people may not see it or it isn't enforced and people don't respect it

annbass: another thing is that people don't realize THEY have behaved that way, even when you call it out; that they have done something wrong and correct for that

shevski: on the community group stuff. I like having /something/ is good.
... having something from the community about what they want is good. such as "I want quick communication among many devices" and there isn't that.

tantek: *whispers* that's not social, those are machines

shevski: but it is! I'm talking to people. through machines.

tantek: [evan enters] photo time!

eprodrom: has everybody taken a look at the issues?

<eprodrom_> https://github.com/jasnell/w3c-socialwg-activitystreams/issues

<ben_thatmustbeme> https://github.com/jasnell/w3c-socialwg-activitystreams/issues

eprodrom_: what I would like to do is work from oldest to newest and see what we can do to clarify those.

<eprodrom_> https://github.com/jasnell/w3c-socialwg-activitystreams/issues/249

tantek: to be clear these are ones you think need discussion

eprodrom_: these are ones that are open... let's say that of the ones we have there are 3 that are significant changes...

tantek: want to go through the hardest ones first?

<eprodrom_> https://github.com/jasnell/w3c-socialwg-activitystreams/issues/249

eprodrom_: maybe the easiest ones first?

tantek: ok

eprodrom_: 249. so, some of the examples don't have the properties described in the text. james is +1, I'm +1. so there isn't a problem with this.

tantek: if you and the other editors think something is editorial then we don't need to look at it. we trust your judgment.

<tantek> https://github.com/jasnell/w3c-socialwg-activitystreams/issues/279

<tantek> https://github.com/jasnell/w3c-socialwg-activitystreams/issues/280

eprodrom_: for the CR exit issues. we need explicit exit criteria (279), a list of separate features (280)

<tantek> https://github.com/jasnell/w3c-socialwg-activitystreams/issues/281

eprodrom_: let's just say that when these are resolved and assuming the editorial issues are solved, we're good

tantek: these are not editorial. the conformance clause is certainly normative. the separate features may be editorial but might not so you may still want group review.
... but the group has reviewed the conformance clause and said it looks good. so anything that has been reviewed can just be dropped in.
... so there is really only one thing left to review

<eprodrom_> https://github.com/jasnell/w3c-socialwg-activitystreams/issues/289

eprodrom_: the issue is we don't have a good vocabularity around relationships

<eprodrom_> http://jasnell.github.io/w3c-socialwg-activitystreams/activitystreams-vocabulary/#connections

eprodrom_: in the specification, we said there should be an external vocabulary for this

<eprodrom_> http://jasnell.github.io/w3c-socialwg-activitystreams/activitystreams-vocabulary/#dfn-relationship

eprodrom_: we don't refer to one but we talk about one

dmitriz: you show it in the examples

eprodrom_: right. if we defer this part of the specification to a TBD section about extensions, why don't we push the relationship stuff to a future extension
... it makes sense to me
... james has had a chance to comment but I feel that there isn't a reason to wait for him. my opinion as an editor is that we should just push it to extension.

<tantek> +1 on dropping relationships from AS2 per comment in issue: https://github.com/jasnell/w3c-socialwg-activitystreams/issues/289#issuecomment-197916259

cwebber2: it seems like maybe some verbs or vocab would be lost. do you know of any use-cases that may be lost by dropping this to an extension?

eprodrom_: AS1 didn't even have relationships like this

cwebber2: I'm +1 on this then. If people feel strongly about this as an extension then we can do that. it doesn't seem like a blocker for activity streams itself.
... just wanted to make sure we didn't drop something else as a consequence

tantek: I would just propose the issue and see if anyone objects to the editor's proposal
... I don't hear any objections

eprodrom_: ok I'll just mark that as group resolved

<eprodrom_> https://github.com/jasnell/w3c-socialwg-activitystreams/issues/290

eprodrom_: next one is 290. it is around transitive activities.
... the idea is to add one of the classes in vocab to core. james is fine with it. I'm fine with it. it is a reasonable thing to do.

<cwebber2> sounds good to me

eprodrom_: basically, transitive classes are an extended class and they are used often enough that it seems more useful in core.
... any objections to that?
... great
... the last one [is 292] which is adding a deleted tag to objects

<eprodrom_> https://github.com/jasnell/w3c-socialwg-activitystreams/issues/292

eprodrom_: the idea is to add a deleted timestamp to provide a tombstone for objects
... so you can have an image and they say this image has been deleted

cwebber2: this seems useful because you were already talking about 410 GONE and this would be useful certainly in activitypub and media goblin right away

<tantek> aaronpk, didn't #indiewebcamp recently discuss a dt-deleted? what was the conclusion?

eprodrom_: there are cases where you want to say this object is deleted but valid

<tantek> (or at list citation to prior discussion)

dmitriz: it can be as useful or not depending on your server's retention policy
... if you are the kind of server that commits to sending 410s whenever possible you want this, if not you may want to garbage collect and 404
... so this is an option for those servers with permanent retention policies

cwebber2: it seems this doesn't require people to do it

eprodrom_: we have seen this before and then we pushed it to an extension but seeing it come up again we consider adding it to the spec

<Zakim> aaronpk, you wanted to point out privacy implications of sharing the deleted timestamp

<cwebber2> +q

aaronpk: I think we should have a way to specify the deletion without the timestamp for when people want to delete but not disclose when

cwebber2: since there is already the deleted flag

aaronpk: what is the deleted flag

<dmitriz> I think chris means the deleted timestamp?

<tantek> per jasnell comment: "type": "Delete",

cwebber2: the thing we are discussing. for instance we can send a 'delete' verb to servers and they might ask 'why is this gone' and people can do that but it is optional.

eprodrom_: I think what aaronpk is saying is that it is good to have a delete property. but it being a timestamp there are privacy concerns.
... people want to delete things because they don't want them to be published and thus may not want it there

dmitriz: you can place the timestamp date but not return the data and just 404

aaronpk: but the problem is when you want to propagate that

cwebber2: then you can have a timestamp or boolean

aaronpk: that would solve it

<tantek> How does Twitter notify deletes?

<jasnell> this is why for Atom we came up with the deleted-entry

<jasnell> atom tombstones rfc

<jasnell> https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6721

eprodrom_: and if that is good we can do that. the only problem is when implementations are only checking if it is truthy, but they will likely do that anyway.

<eprodrom_> jasnell: so, deleted becomes a timestamp or boolean

<eprodrom_> Sound OK?

<jasnell> not sure I understand the privacy concerns around deleted being a date but ok

tantek: I do think the timestamp is important especially for synchronization

<jasnell> yes, having deleted as a timestamp is fairly critical for sync

aaronpk: for the twitter api, the tweets generally come through as just the data on the tweets. there are some actions that come through for instance a scrub-geo action to remove location.

tantek: so they are using keys as verbs sometimes

aaronpk: yep

tantek: what is the proposed solution?

eprodrom_: to add a deleted property to the object and its range is either a timestamp or a boolean

cwebber2: can I request we note that it is optional to handle cases where people prefer a 404

<jasnell> eprodrom_: +1

aaronpk: when there is a delete action in the stream, it should be required to have that flag to know it is deleted

<jasnell> however, if deleted is a boolean, it should be noted that synchronization will be difficult

<jasnell> it should also be noted that just because there's a deleted property in the object, it doesn't mean implementations have to delete the content

aaronpk: I'm thinking when a system is pulling in a feed, how does it know to delete, so it needs to see that delete to know when to get rid of it

cwebber2: there is a delete verb

eprodrom_: cwebber2 is addressing the idea that there is a controversy between sending a 404 or 410

aaronpk: that's pulling the individual object

eprodrom_: yes

<jasnell> also keep in mind... {"type": "Delete", "object": {"id": "http://example.org"} work perfectly well for this too

eprodrom_: if we don't have objections, I'm going to say this is our resolution

<jasnell> without introducing a new property

tantek: this is a new introduction

eprodrom_: yeah, this is the first new property is a while

tantek: would you consider marking it as at-risk?

cwebber2: we could but we are going to use it immediately in media goblin

dmitriz: even though the field is optional

tantek: that doesn't alter the fact that it is in the spec
... [to cwebber2] that is good to know. it is useful to know.

ben_thatmustbeme: jasnell says we can add a type "Delete"

<jasnell> also, if you're going to go down the tombstone route, please make sure you take the additional security issues into consideration

cwebber2: we already have a type "Delete"

eprodrom: yeah, I think the idea there is that we have a "hole"

cwebber2: you can still see the case where you have a Photo and you want that deleted
... we could do this but it doesn't seem as interesting when the group came to some consensus around the property
... adding an object doesn't seem less tricky than adding the flag

eprodrom: the reason I like this is say you have a naive implementation and it is looking at a collection of image objects.
... if it is not aware of tombstoning it may show an image that has been deleted. or its metadata.
... however if the type has changed, the tombstone will look foreign and it will skip it.
... basically, naive implementations will do the wrong thing with the flag

<jasnell> please keep in mind that adding a tombstone does not compel anyone to actually delete anything

dmitriz: the argument is essentially if somebody writes something and is wrong to the spec it will break

<jasnell> if the content has been syndicated, the best you can do is distribute the *intent* for it to be deleted

aaronpk: it is worth considering since doing it wrong leaks information

tantek: it is good practice to assume partial implementations and decide if such a thing would do bad things for users

dmitriz: so how does it work? it replaces the id?

eprodrom: yes. it shares the id.

dmitriz: is the worry about retrieving the collection? then it is up to the server to not send that deleted image.

<tantek> what about undeleting?

aaronpk: it is talking about synch. a server has already seen the image and now needs to remove it.

cwebber2: tsyesika, how do we handle this?

tsyesika: it is much like a tombstone. it is in a tombstone table and it is a field in that table.

tantek: is there undeleting?

cwebber2: there is an undelete verb but we don't handle that

tantek: there seems to be an idea in social media: to delete and then undelete

cwebber2: there is interest in undelete and undo actions but doesn't have bearing on this decision

tantek: I'm just trying to see if the solution would be lossy for privacy purposes, but un-lossy for undeleting purposes

cwebber2: I don't see how the structure of this would prevent the UI experience
... it seems more at the API or stream level

<jasnell> this conversation is mixing two different things. (a) A server hosts it's own content, publishes at content at one point, then needs to indicate that it's been deleted. (b) A consumer has received content from someone and needs to be told that it's been deleted

eprodrom: my experience is that deletion is something that gets implemented late and involves lots of bug squashing
... whereas every activity streams processor needs to handle types it doesn't recognize

dmitriz: do we say every consumer must ignore every type it doesn't recognize?

<jasnell> for both, a {"type": "Delete", "object": "http://example.org"} is sufficient. For (a) the thing being deleted simply goes away and a new activity is published indicating what happened to it. For (b) the new activity is a signal that it ought to get rid of the thing that was deleted.

eprodrom: let's not call it type "Delete" but rather "Tombstone" that has a formertype

cwebber2: former type flag?

eprodrom: yeah if you really need that

cwebber2: I'm more sold on this than I thought I would be
... in which case there is an optional field for the date. so two fields 'when' and 'formertype'

<jasnell> for undelete, if you assign an ID to the delete activity, {"id": "http://example.org/delete/1", "type": "Delete", "object": "http://example.org/note"}, you can easily follow that up with a {"type": "Undo", "object": "http://example.org/delete/1"}

tantek: maybe we give jasnell some time to reflect on this

eprodrom: ok I'll take an action to review this with jasnell this afternoon

<cwebber2> we would probrably want to call it whenRemoved

<cwebber2> the type

tantek: maybe that will cause it to converge a little bit more

<cwebber2> mainly because properties can merge and "when" could appear unclear

<cwebber2> between multiple type objects at least

<cwebber2> and each property needs its own uri anyway

tantek: how well does this mesh well with activity streams at large?

<tantek> format vs protocol? overlap vs separation?

eprodrom: the tombstone kind of blends in the noun or verb distinction

tantek: many of these social web implementations have delete. I also like this tombstone approach.

eprodrom: we have still a couple of questions

<eprodrom> https://github.com/jasnell/w3c-socialwg-activitystreams/issues/296

eprodrom: name is a should not a must but it is not in many of our examples

<eprodrom> https://github.com/w3c-social/activitystreams-test-documents/blob/master/vocabulary-ex161-jsonld.json

tantek: you could say the examples need to be fixed, or you could say the examples show that you don't need a name and should stay a SHOULD

<eprodrom> Most of the "Activity"

<eprodrom> "While all properties are optional (including the id and type), all Object instances SHOULD at least contain a name (or equivalent nameMap)."

cwebber2: I think SHOULD should be removed since we fold the title in to name and many don't have name. why should it be there if the biggest producer of AS doesn't have them.

eprodrom: there are many objects that have a type but not a name. I think it should remain a SHOULD.

aaronpk: if you are going to say things SHOULD have a name, I worry that people will just throw a name into things.

<eprodrom> jasnell: for Activity and IntransitiveActivity types, does it makes sense to SHOULD a name?

cwebber2: there are cases where you don't know exactly what to put for it.

eprodrom: what I'd like to do is recommend we leave it as a SHOULD right now and get jasnell's feedback and follow up this afternoon

tantek: when a SHOULD is good in a spec is when it is explicit about when it is used and when it is ok to not

cwebber2: I think I would want to know the motivation for a SHOULD in the first place

eprodrom: the idea is you could take a collection of objects and show them in a list

tantek: it was required in Atom I think which is where it may be coming from

eprodrom: how about we propose to explain the reasons for this being a SHOULD

<eprodrom> PROPOSAL: explain the reasons for this being a SHOULD

tantek: I've already seen this soak up a lot of discussion time

<cwebber2> seems weird but no objections

eprodrom: with Atom, yeah

tantek: any objections to explaining why you should put a name and why you shouldn't in some other cases
... no objections, I think you are good to go on that proposal

<jasnell> re: Tombstones ... https://github.com/jasnell/w3c-socialwg-activitystreams/issues/292#issuecomment-197935286

eprodrom: dmitriz, do you want to discuss 297?

<jasnell> historically, with AS1, "displayName" was strongly recommended only when extension types were used, to give implementations something to use if they did not understand the type

dmitriz: in as vocab, we have several types for representing polls and stack-overflow-like questions and answers

<jasnell> "displayName" was not required, however, if the type was well known

<jasnell> the same rule would apply here

dmitriz: how do we handle closing polls or locking a question?

<jasnell> if the object is using a core type from the vocabulary, then name is largely optional

dmitriz: I believe jasnell's answer was "no we don't"

<jasnell> if the object is using an uncommon type or an extension type, name should be provided

<eprodrom> jasnell: Good example

tantek: does anybody implement polls?

eprodrom: statusnet

tantek: should we mark polls at-risk
... this fits jasnell's answer that this can be done as extension

eprodrom: I think it makes sense to have it be an extension

tantek: any objections?

<tantek> no objections. move Poll to an extension

dmitriz: I have another issue. about 'scope' and 'context' properties in the vocabularity

<jasnell> fwiw, closing a question is actually an activity. one could easily imagine {"type": "Close", "object": {"type": "Question", ... }

dmitriz: it seems like the two are fairly similar

<jasnell> dmitriz: they aren't

<tantek> jasnell, any objection to moving Question / Poll to an extension?

<jasnell> tantek: I see no reason to move it to an extension but whatever the WG decides

<dmitriz> https://www.w3.org/TR/activitystreams-vocabulary/#dfn-scope

<tantek> (evan said it would give us a chance to give them a more proper thorough treatment that implementations that care about those would like)

<jasnell> dmitriz: scope deals with scoping the intended audience for the object and relates to the to/bto/cc/bcc fields

dmitriz: 'context' seems like reply-to and useful for comments. 'scope' seems like access control and is this appropriate at this level?

<tantek> (no current implementations - in the room - have intent to implement, hence it made sense to consider as an extension)

dmitriz: it seems to fit the same purpose as the 'to' field

cwebber2: do we have any known uses of 'scope'?

eprodrom: no

<jasnell> yes

cwebber2: can we drop it?

eprodrom: I would like to give time for jasnell to review and answer

tantek: do we open the issue?

eprodrom: yes

cwebber2: I think dropping scope seems ok

<jasnell> -1 to dropping scope

<jasnell> -1 to dropping context

<dmitriz> what is the use case for scope?

tantek: can jasnell get on talky?

<tantek> jasnell: can you get on the talky?

<dmitriz> it seems to be overloading access control / to: field

<jasnell> no I cannot, I'm on another call concurrently

tantek: alright. open the issue and note we have some consensus at the meeting. we will have to come back to it.

<tantek> but we have an important outstanding objection from jasnell so we will have to come back to it to better understand it

<tantek> jasnell, no problem, we are capturing the current state for future discussion

eprodrom: that means we are done

tantek: you have a bunch of editor, not editorial, editor actions. we only have two after that?

eprodrom: right

tantek: do we want to consider publishing a new working draft of activity streams? even before CR draft.

eprodrom: I think that makes sense. what does that mean for going to CR.

tantek: it doesn't harm anything. it just puts another draft out such that the changes between that draft and CR are fewer.
... and it helps to get stuff like the conformance section to get more review

<jasnell> re scope and context, https://github.com/jasnell/w3c-socialwg-activitystreams/issues/300

<jasnell> to/bto/cc/bcc deal with notifications

<jasnell> scope deals with scope the audience, it's a different role than to/bto/cc/bcc

eprodrom: I should be able to have that by next telecon

<jasnell> context is something else entirely... it describes a larger context in which the object exists

tantek: you don't have to wait til the next telecon
... proposal is to publish new AS working drafts with outstanding edits completed

eprodrom: great

<eprodrom> +1

<tantek> PROPOSED: publish new AS2 working drafts with outstanding (agreed, reviewed) edits completed


<ben_thatmustbeme> +1

<aaronpk> +1

<eprodrom> +1

<cwebber2> +1

<dmitriz> +1

<tsyesika> +1

<annbass> +1

<rhiaro> +1

RESOLUTION: publish new AS2 working drafts with outstanding (agreed, reviewed) edits completed

<sandro> +1

tantek: that is completely in your camp. the sooner the edits are done, the sooner we get a new draft. so close to CR.
... we have 10 minutes but lunch is here so let's break for lunch. any objections?

<jasnell> fwiw, I'm entirely -1 to removing Relationship

<ben_thatmustbeme> scribenick: ben_thatmustbeme

<tantek> chair: tantek

(continuing from informal conversation during break)

create update and delete of social objects

<tantek> https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/2016-03-16#March_17

rhiaro: I want to start with a demo of my own

(the lunch conversation will be recapped soon)

<tantek> DEMO: Activitypub posting to a site (Amy)

<tantek> (setting up)

rhiaro: i started building posting clients
... the first i want to show is checkins. I made a checkin client, it authenticates with indieauth, and endpoint discovery the micropub way but its an activitypub client
... (in terms of the data)

(technical difficulties)

scribe: creates an arrive activity on her site
... backdated the checkin so it says she has been there for an amount of time
... using another client I create an AS extension object of Consume activity with what i ate (Lunch - Free)


scribe: shows the AS objects that were just created

shows another client for rsvps / travel plans / etc

rhiaro: all of these are posting activitystreams json object through activitypub by a micropub discovery method (as i just reused the code for it for now)
... the interesting thing was that i was able to do activitypub create without caring about the other parts of the activitypub spec
... when i post with quill my micropub endpoint translates it to activity pub first

tsyesika: you said its to a micropub endpoint, do you also output the actities as microformats?

rhiaro: there are some, but in my mind these are completely decoupled. The pages use accept-headers
... it is different as if you visit my endpoint (in this case the equivalent) it shows nothing
... in doing this is became really clear how close these two were together

aaronpk: i can sort of summarize from break

<tantek> aaronpk is giving a state of Micropub

aaronpk: the state of micropub is that when i created Micropub originally it was just create. That simplicity has led to many many clients.
... the main goal of micropub is to allow many clients you didn't write to post to your site
... for the majority of cases there already exists a way on your own system to edit and delete

<tantek> (how many clients do create only?)

aaronpk: that said there is also a lot of value to being able to create and delete
... i'm not super happy with the version i have in MP now
... it works, but i'm not tied to it.
... right now it accepts form encoded or json for create
... the form encoded is important for posting images and video at the same time by multipart
... i was looking to see if there was a way to use non-form encoding for update & delete but still allow files

(explains some examples from the spec)

aaronpk: It would be more convenient if there were only one path for updates as it right now allows both
... looking at the twitter API there are seperate endpoint for images
... that returns an ID and then you have to just use that ID or it gets deleted in an hour
... i like that method as it gets rid of form encoded
... that simplifies the whole update and delete process for me
... when you do that there is very little difference between that and activitypub
... this is where i see the overlap
... why should i bother making up this new type if activitypub already has this?
... this is why rhiaro and I were talking about this earlier with the naming of "SocialPub" being the join of the two
... if you look at it as just updates and deletes. micropub is a special case of create

cwebber2: would that be for just notes or other things as well

aaronpk: it could cover things as well, images, videos, events, etc
... i also have the same for flights and legs of flights, thats super ugly as form encoded
... for that one i would rather use a json object. There are plenty of cases for json format but i want that simple version for posting, thats the micro in micropub

sandro: can i rephrase this? why not do it as micropub is the form encoded posting and "activity update" is the indirect way to modify the resource that has activity streams data on it? how does that not address your use case?

aaronpk: i'm not creating acitivites i'm creating posts, so its a different vocabulary

sandro: activity sreams gives us a patch for those

aaronpk: thats what i could use
... the other major difference between the specs, activity pub expects you send the entire object but i want to just modify single properties and i think activity pub would benefit from that

cwebber2: do you think thats something that should go in to AS2 as an object

aaronpk: i don't know

cwebber2: i don't know either

tantek: what if i gave you a week to discuss this asyncronously then maybe you can get consensus between you two and you can pitch it to the group

cwebber2: we do also have some method of an undelete

<tantek> tsyesika: we discussed some of this before lunch

tsyesika: presumably this would be in both our specs we would refer to this social pub document. creating is still different. in activity pub we currently require you to always create posts in an activity
... we could allow this to post a single object for client to server but not server to server

aaronpk: i do support that idea, i think creating is the most important action and that should be as simple as possible
... we would be looking for creating a CRUD syntax both specs could use

<Loqi> Tantekelik made 1 edit to [[Socialwg]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=97778&oldid=97769

aaronpk: maybe you make that exception, but the idea is that there would be 1 way to create things that would be in common

cwebber2: this sounds appealing of reaching concensus on something that has previously been very different on

tsyesika: i think its a good idea to make use of this time tosee if we can resolve this as we have an open issue on activytpub now

cwebber2: evan was a strong objector to seeing a "pure system" of always having activity wrapped objects go away
... he didn't seem happy about it. i asked about the api only, and he didn't seem happy about it.

aaronpk: i can see that making sense in the stream as well

cwebber2: i think i'm ok with it, but i think its important that tsyesika be convinced since she is the main implementor

<tantek> (example of creating offline on a plane, and publishing later)

tsyesika: i'm certainly in support of convergence. the create activity is useful in itself as it can contain information that is different from the object, say the offline creation is different from the publish date

<tantek> (note: dt-created property has been discussed in other contexts for this reason too)

<tantek> (separate from published or updated)

tsyesika: i'm interested in seeing if on the micropub side you would be willing to have it so that the server can always accept the wrapped activity as well as the unwrapped format

rhiaro: micropub doesn't say anything about what the server does with it when i gets the item, thats not part of the spec. all you have to do is have an endpoint that advertises itself as such

aaronpk: we have a difference in authors, you could set the author in the object or the created date, so its assumed that the server will fill those in

tsyesika: its the same in activity pub

cwebber2: it sounds like thats not so big a difference.
... this seems like a minimalist create mode

sandro: creation shortcut mode

tsyesika: with a few caveats, i'm on board with this

cwebber2: if our side supports that and your side supports the unwrapping activities

aaronpk: whats left in micropub is having the file uploading endpoint, form encoding ..

cwebber2: we might be able unify on the image endpoint too
... thats an easy collaboration endpoint

tantek: i'd like to see that image endpoint written up

<cwebber2> https://github.com/w3c-social/activitypub/issues/23

<cwebber2> the out-of-band create mechanism

rhiaro: there are a couple places where the two specs are unsure of things so this is great

aaronpk: this would be great for me to keep micropub as simple as it should be

<Loqi> Tantekelik made 1 edit to [[Socialwg]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=97779&oldid=97778

cwebber2: if it is much smaller and we have a way to translate vocabularies
... i can see it getting added to mediagoblin

rhiaro: i was able to do that method to determine what data is being send

tsyesika: i'm curious vocab convergence

aaronpk: i think thats a seperate discussion that we could have
... i tried to leave it out of micropub as much as possible
... that way i can post to it without even knowing what its posting
... i like the aspect of it

tantek: what to most implementation support?

aaronpk: most support only creating and most already have some other storage properties that they are matching to
... when i built mine i specifically have the endpoint write directly to storage, so that it is sorted out when rendering

cwebber2: i feel like where we are at a point where we are at a point where these are practically going to be shared but we need some idea of what mapping between the vocabularies means

aaronpk: the problem that keeps coming up in the indiewebcamp channel is how do we propogate changes to old posts
... the readers are all based around new posts
... this is where i'm seeing activity streams being useful for this, and while i might not have a mapping on my main site, but i might use it as a stream of whats going on

cwebber2: rhiaro you were working on the mapping between the two at some point i think

rhiaro: there is some pages and such, but the other important part is post type discovery
... so there are some properties that map directly but there are a few places where it takes some work

cwebber2: so will micropub will reference this socialpub document
... is there going to be a seperate socialpub document or will it be both specs take on some changes?

rhiaro: i think since i've implemented this seperately as the create part, i'm in favor of breaking up activtypub into smaller docs

tsyesika: i have to admit one of the things i want for activity pub is to break it up into smaller steps that are implementable seperately
... so if i want to use only part of it, i can, but if some larger system wants to do all of it, they can

cwebber2: so heres a proposal kind of based off of what amy has done previously, would this be a reasonable restructuring of the document would be just "how to write a simple document" and then 'servers handling the client to server api' and then 3rd was server to server api

rhiaro: i would see it as 'heres how to get data to the server' then 'heres what to do with it once it gets to the server'
... so if you wanted to do the second half you could do that seperately. you could do client to server just sending files for examples

cwebber2: so maybe socialpub becomes client to server entirely and then activitypub becomes server to server
... is that a proposal that we are willing to work towards?

tsyesika: well there are more ways to break this up than just client to server and server to server
... like posting an activity vs updating

rhiaro: i think the client to server seperates very easily

cwebber2: i think the simpler way is saying socialpub is client to server and activitypub becomes server to server

tantek: i feel like there is part of it you are agreeing on some and others you are not
... it seems like you are talking the same language now and thats a huge step
... i want to capture this as a set of action items

rhiaro: i could start with this as a section of social web protocols

tantek: i also so a number of suggestions for next steps for activity pub that could be done
... i'll trust you as editors to continue to converge on these proactively
... but i'd like to see you not depend on each other.
... amy you have a bunch of stuff written up, do you feel you can add that to social web protocols

rhiaro: yes

aaronpk: i can help with that

tantek: for now you can add it and publish and iterate
... so we can action you and then the rest can happen asyncronously
... so that if anyone gets stuck on their document they are not stopping anyone else

aaronpk: it sounds like the best thing i can do is replace the whole update and replace section and assume it will be moved to the social web protocols eventually

tsyesika: i think the main this for us is to update our spec to allow this simple editing

tantek: i think the other idea you had to update to do this seperate sections of incremental implementations that would be great

action rhiaro to incorporate your work done in to the social web protocols document for the others in the group to review

<trackbot> Created ACTION-88 - Incorporate your work done in to the social web protocols document for the others in the group to review [on Amy Guy - due 2016-03-24].

<cwebber2> https://github.com/w3c-social/activitypub/issues/32 <- issue here

tantek: both of you (aaron and tsyesika) to keep track of that on your githubs

ben_thatmustbeme: i would like to see outbox read and write seperated out

cwebber2: i think there is some more discussion on that

tantek: can you create an issue on social web protocols to capture that amy?
... we are now breaking for 15 minutes

<tantek> resume at 14:30 EDT

<Loqi> I added a countdown for 3/17 11:30am (#5819)

<Loqi> resume

<Loqi> Countdown set by tantek on 3/17/16 at 11:15am

<tantek> Thank you Loqi

<KevinMarks_> hi there

<KevinMarks_> I can see a tantek

<aaronpk> KevinMarks_: can you hear?

open issues for activitypub

<KevinMarks_> yes i can

eprodrom_: i think the idea was to put some time this afternoon in to resolving open issues

cwebber2: i would like to proceed by first addressing issue 71

<cwebber2> https://github.com/w3c-social/activitypub/issues/32

<cwebber2> sorry https://github.com/w3c-social/activitypub/issues/71

<sandro> scribe: sandro

tsyesika: we have certain terms like inbox, outbox, ... and rhiaro suggested generalizing this as a stream array
... also a way to achieve (something) about inbox and outbox

cwebber2: So the question is... Amy's suggestion is instead of followers, .... use types, ....
... What could be true is we could have a term in activitypub that here's a term for ...

<Loqi> Tantekelik made 1 edit to [[Socialwg/2016-03-16]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=97780&oldid=97776

<Loqi> Aaronpk made 1 edit to [[Socialwg/2016-03-16]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=97781&oldid=97780

cwebber2: Amy's propositiyon soun ds interesting but I dont think object types is the right way to break it up
... c-s or s-s might have different streams, and maybe this is a way to do that

<shevski> i'll be back

cwebber2: so there could be a "likes" stream, maybe a subset of collection, or maybe it's own URI,
... I'm not sure which, I'd like to open it for discussion
... I think people do have arbitrary streams

aaronpk: I have struggled with this problem. I think I understand why you have these distinctions
... on my homepage I have some kinds of posts, but not others, and down at the bottom I have links to the others
... I curate the collections based on how I want people to read it, NOT on types
... so I have health
... and travel
... and events I'm going to that are not in Portland
... so these are very much mixed types
... and I have my primary stream
... In an old version of my site I had them by type, but that didn't work well

eprodrom__: Certain groups, like Chris' Friends, or Chris' main feed, or Things Chris Likes, ... a core set of five predefined
... then have other unqualified streams

cwebber2: Because followers and likes have API specific purpose

eprodrom__: Right
... So just have a relationship Stream might do this

cwebber2: WIth the addition of arbitrary labeling of these new streams
... Sounds like have consensus, which I'm recording on the issue

"So we will have special API specific collections, like likes and followers and inbox, but streams should be supported as a general bucket for interesting collections."

<cwebber2> https://github.com/w3c-social/activitypub/issues/48

cwebber2: This kind of moves into Who Do You Trust
... I think we've agreed, you trust same origin, otherwise you link back and verify
... the desire for supporting static sites
... So I would point my endpoints off-server
... in which case how do you know who has authority
... Are there other origin scoping tools?
... or do we just not want to permit that kind of static site thing

sandro: Doesn;t a link serve as delegation?

cwebber2: If the profile is on a static site, maybe we can trust what it points to, yes....
... adding comment on issue

eprodrom__: ap.io gets an UpdateOn dustyclould, and it knows how to do it. I don't see why we need to proscribe server behavior

cwebber2: If you get a message from me that there's something new, and my endpoints are on another server, should you trust them

eprodrom__: If I remember how pump.io does it, it checks to see the authentication of the actor

cwebber2: In APub you can have an update that's an update of a blog on another site. And you'd trust the author.
... Can you fake that you're someone else?

<melvster> IMHO there's nothing specific about the same origin that implies you can trust it, that's just a typical pattern used together with centralized services

cwebber2: Assuming you want to support static sites, you'd need something like this

sandro: same origin isn't relevant here. It's following trust-bearing links

tantek: CSP - content-security-policy can help if you want to do this offline

harry: So for example you could trust ... (something)

cwebber2: I think I understand how to handle this

<cwebber2> https://github.com/w3c-social/activitypub/issues/23

tantek: I'm happy to answer CSP questions, since I just implemented it for my site

<hhalpin> CSP is here Sandro

<hhalpin> https://www.w3.org/TR/CSP/

cwebber2: The main challenge for us is how to do discovery

<hhalpin> Typically, you want to use it when you are authorizing Javascript from outside the same origin.

<hhalpin> Would be useful if the endpoint has a feed that has some JS, and should be recommended to use.

<tantek> hhalpin: documentation of my experience with CSP: https://indiewebcamp.com/CSP

<hhalpin> CSP support works well in browsers now

<hhalpin> So any SOP exceptions, particuarly if they involve javascript, should use CSP

<KevinMarks_> if you separate the image upload from the post, and then use a URL, that implies you could use an external url for an image?

cwebber2: Is it useful to put on the user's profile page where I submit my photos

aaronpk: You see things like this on a multiuser system

tsyesika: Someone might want their media whereever they want it

cwebber2: It feels a bit silly to me

tsyesika: People might have multiple endpoints

eprodrom__: Discoverable endpoints for upload? Sounds great

<cwebber2> https://github.com/w3c-social/activitypub/issues/34

cwebber2: okay, sounds good
... This has come up a few times. It bothers me we still don't have this
... the main challenge that was blocking this is what happens when activities represent other activities that don't exist any more
... transient activities, like IM or strawberry-watering.
... one approach is to have activities with no id, and they get delivered through federation but other otherwise not interesting
... or give them a UUID

eprodrom__: We talked about the 'scope' property earlier today. Would that be a way to address this?

<tantek> Open issues for Webmention at 15:35

<Loqi> I added a countdown for 3/17 3:35pm (#5820)

eprodrom__: maybe I put a scope of 'game update'

<hhalpin> in general, you need an id or some kind for HTTP REST retrieval of ids from X to X1 in terms of polling, right?

<tantek> !cancel #5820

<Loqi> Ok, I cancelled it

<tantek> Open issues for Webmention at 15:35 EDT

<Loqi> I added a countdown for 3/17 12:35pm (#5821)

eprodrom__: One of the problems with client-defined-expiry is that client lie and cheat and are bad. They say keep this forever, it's important.
... Clients might have advisory info, but the server needs to decide.
... IRC updates from the F2F, scope might be F2F

cwebber2: mauybe that's a fed only concern

eprodrom__: Once again you're trying to dictate server behavior. Also this might not be that important. identica has a lot of updates, but it's not that big really

aaronpk: It sounds like you're kind of talking about a Notification, which is not an activity

cwebber2: Yes, but also a chat that you don't want to keep around

aaronpk: Off The Record messaging is a different thing, with its own set of considerations
... Call these notifications, and it makes sense.
... You probably don't want to casually throw OTR into the spec

cwebber2: Yeah, if we just put OTR in here, we'll probably get it wrong
... In this world, there's generally an expectation that people can retrieve things, so OTR wil be hard
... How would we show notifications?
... Some server-to-server notificaton, like your quota is reached

eprodrom__: Is that about too much data? I dunno what this is for.

dmitriz: This is misusing scope. James said it would be renamed to 'audience'. And access-control-like thing.

cwebber2: OpenFarmGame has its own type. So servers could garbage-collect them easily enough.
... In an earlier version of the spec, it seemed like servers had to keep things around forever
... that was also part of our motivation for tombstones

eprodrom__: That might be good to document. For example, twitter API only lets you go back 800 tweets, which is like a day.

<hhalpin> Re OTR end-to-end encrypted messaging, there is a new protocol called Axolotl that is used by Signal/WhatsApp/(interest from Mozilla/Wire: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Axolotl_%28protocol%29

<hhalpin> That is a revision and fixes mpOTR issues

<hhalpin> However, I agree that OTR is out of scope.

dmitriz: Agreed clients lie, but the client setting an expiry on a stream is useful.

<hhalpin> However, happy to ask the nextleap folks (George and Karthik - https://nextleap.eu) to see if they can staple Axolotl on top of whatever comes out of ActivityPub, since folks are going to be working on that for the next 2.5 years

cwebber2: Could be via an extension

eprodrom__: Like 'earliest item in colleciton is X'
... Most social systems don't go back very far now, so we shouldn't ask that of folks.
... "This is everything in the inbox. Note some servers limit the number of pages you cna go back."

cwebber2: okay, resolved

<hhalpin> +1 finding earliest item in collection

<hhalpin> Do we have some normative way of getting id numbers per feed in AS2.0 and ActivityPub?

<hhalpin> [looking in spec]

"we won't support id-less notificaitons. Clarify that it's up to servers if they want to keep around objects as long as they want. If they want to delete objects, like maybe delete a bunch of game notifications, that's a-ok.

Perhaps a future extension will permit clarifying how long users might expect they can continue to access data."

<tsyesika> https://github.com/w3c-social/activitypub/issues/77

tsyesika: Can we specify indieauth for authentication?
... Or is that out-of-scope?

<hhalpin> +1 OAuth 2.0, with a nonn-normative recommendation for use of rel="me" w/i IndieWeb

hhalpin: indieauth is oauth2 so ...
... I feel like you should normatively require oath2 and suggest indieauth

<tantek> +1 to hhalpin

hhalpin: How do you do the REST call where you get X from Y

<hhalpin> Like without re-polling everything

<hhalpin> That is something Objective8 from D-CENT hit

<hhalpin> We can normatively refer to OAuth 2.0 - its an IETF rec

<hhalpin> In fact, OAuth 2.0 does more or less give interop

<hhalpin> OAuth 2.0 is Authorization

<tantek> agreed that interop is the goal

<tantek> reference something if it helps interop

sandro: oauth2 doesn't tell you what you need to make this work

<hhalpin> +1 OAuth 2.0 and Bearer Token spec

<tantek> +1 to that as well

<dmitriz> bearer tokens in a federated context is not that easy

<hhalpin> Authentication should be left out (WebAuth + password stuff)

aaronpk: Use oatuh2 and bearer-tokens, but that still leaves stuff underspecified

<dmitriz> (this is something we've been struggling with in Solid, as well)

<wilkie> identity in a federated context is not the easy

<hhalpin> Identity, well, it's tough. There's some takeup of OpenID Connect (OAuth 2.0 profile)

aaronpk: Identity is what's really useful here

<hhalpin> But it's not as universal in takeup as OAuth 2.0

aaronpk: So "just use oauth" doesn't sove the problems

eprodrom: So Use Auth2 with Bearer-Tokens, that's clear enough, but...

cwebber2: "This is a stub to be expanded"

<hhalpin> JSON Web Signatures is just a way to sign the bearer token if bearer token is JWT

cwebber2: This was left in there as a to-be-worked-on

eprodrom: We keep saying don't do this :-)

<hhalpin> I'm happy to take an action to review/edit that piece. We could make it non-normative but no guidance is kinda crazy

cwebber2: Is the right thing to do to say that Auth and Ident are left as an open question

sandro: Leave it out of the spec, and put a best practice in a Note

dmitriz: In Solid, we've been looking at this, and IndieAuth is one of the things we considered.
... but because of all the redirects, it's nice in a browser, but not so clear in an API
... Facebook and others solve that by giving an API token, but that's non-trivial
... So lets get something working, but yeah, leave it not in the spec for now

eprodrom: My feeling is, if you need to, Auth2+BearerTokens, but I can see lots of other ways to do this, unauth, basic auth, client certs, etc
... Telling me I have to use a certain kind of auth messes things up for me.

tsyesika: So we should say "folks SHOULD use OAuth2 + BT" ?

eprodrom: Pump.io isn't going to bother with indieauth. We'll stick with username and password.
... we'll just generate our own tokens
... so it's okay as a SHOULD or a best-practice. Don't require more than you can.

cwebber2: Implementations will probably do what the others do.

tantek: tsyesika said goal should be interop
... we can't normatively refer to indieauth, in part because of charter, but we can do an informative non-normative reference
... one way would be to ask if there are any implementations that have an intent

<cwebber2> aaronpk, is specification of indieauth as informative / non-normative currently the state in your standards?

<aaronpk> in micropub?

<cwebber2> aaronpk: yes

tantek: if no intends to implement both, then don't bother

<aaronpk> http://micropub.net/draft/#authentication-and-authorization

amy: my site uses indieauth, but it delegates the work to indieauth.com

aaronpk: The interesting part here is starting from your URL and ending up getting a bearer token

tantek: So you have an implementation to compare against ( rhiaro's )
... Just style it in a spec as NOTE

hhalpin: A total stub then that's not going to work because no-one is going to read it.
... So say O2 + BT and NOTE: try IndieAuth

<tantek> BT = bearer token

hhalpin: But obviously it's not going to be usef by everyone

<Loqi> Open issues for Webmention

<Loqi> Countdown set by tantek on 3/17/16 at 12:05pm

hhalpin: "SHOULD Oauth2 + Brearer-Token"
... Happy to have relevant experts look over this text

eprodrom: Does IndieAuth work in non-browser applications?

dmitriz: RIght, that's a problem

eprodrom: Also, not in server-to-server

<hhalpin> I would also keep authentication out of scope, server to server is OAuth

eprodrom: We should define server-to-server method

<hhalpin> in terms of authorization

<hhalpin> happy to review that text

aaronpk: So I just say use Bearer-Token

<aaronpk> http://micropub.net/draft/#authentication-and-authorization

aaronpk: MIcroPub has text like this

tantek: How do private webmentions work?

cwebber2: Let's aim for the same text between micropub and activitypub

cwebber2 reads micropub spec parts aloud

sandro: that wouldn't allow client-certs that evan wants

eprodrom: Ah yes, I wouldn't want MUST

aaronpk: I definetely want multiple ways to get the token, so I leave that open.
... I like the requirement of Bearer-Tokens, because it's what everyone does anyway.
... Separate out authentication from authorization
... Separate how you get the bearer token from how you use it.

eprodrom: Make the Bearer-Token a SHOULD

aaronpk: yep

<melvster> you have to separate THREE parts not TWO : 1. identity 2. authentication 3. authorization

aaronpk: SHOULD use bearer-token, SHOULD use oauth2 to get it

sandro: let's go for MAY use oauth2 to get it
... since there are other perfectly legit ways

<melvster> this is why oauth is not a good fit for the social web, it doesnt do identity (or doesnt do it very well at least)

cwebber2, probably down to about 22 issues, and several more we can deal with among the editors

<rhiaro> scribe: rhiaro

Webmention open issues

<Loqi> Tantekelik made 1 edit to [[Socialwg/2016-03-16]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=97783&oldid=97781


aaronpk: Source and target form parameters are not URIs, how can we convert them to URIs because it's important for some people
... My thoughts are it has not caused any issues with any implementations that these are not URIs, so unless anyone has a single sentence they can describe a solution right now we can do it, but if not I propose we close

sandro: prefix with http://.....#
... When people want to represent their data for archival or to pass to other systems they want to make unambiguous the notion of source and target
... These notions are things that reasonably could have URIs
... if they were in IANA we could use that, but they're not, so currently everyone has to make up their own uris for these
... It's a trivial problem to solve, and it's a problem some people have

tantek: an alternative is a registry for form encoded parameters, like rel values, which are not uris

sandro: there's no conjecture that people should use the same form encoded parameter

aaronpk: what is the easy solution?

eprodrom: the solution is, if you want this to be a URI, prefix them with http://w3c.org/ns/webmention#

tantek: isn't this an implementation detail?

sandro: not if you want interoperability with some protocol that isn't webmention
... people might in theory want to see where webmentions are

aaronpk: there's no definition of get on a webmention endpoint

sandro: you should get back webmentions you're allowed to see

tantek: if you were to publish an activity stream of webmentions, what would that look like

aaronpk: implementations currently just drop webmentions on the floor after they're processed

<sandro> say that webmention source is equivalent to 'http://www.w3.org/ns/webmention#source'

aaronpk: there is an idea of status urls, which can be GET to see status, so the webmention itself has url

<KevinMarks_> an activity stream of webmentions would look like http://mention-tech.appspot.com/

aaronpk: Implementations treat these as temporary and drop them. THere are so many that are spam that come in so they aren't kept
... but that's the resource
... but status is the description fo the webmention source and target and maybe what happened to it

tantek: if your implementation wishes to treat these terms as uris then it may use the following: http://www.w3.org/ns/webmention#
... anyone who wants to use that can
... anyone who doesn't can skip it

aaronpk: what section does that go in?

tantek: appendix?

aaronpk: it's own section?

tantek: anyone who wants a uri for this you can point them to that section, don't bury it

aaronpk: okay, I'll comment and close the issue when it's added

<sandro> "URIs for form-encoding properties"

<sandro> +1


aaronpk: I've summarised my position at the bottom
... This is a description of an attack where somebody can send a webmention to a system, and if the system can cause actions to happen on a GET request, I can cause that system to make another GET request somewhere which might have undesireable requests

eprodrom: so I could use it for probing security holes in wordpress servers?

aaronpk: except the attacker doesnt' actually get a response

tantek: you could cause a side effect, not get information

aaronpk: all you can do is make the webmention receiver make a get request
... which is unfortunately possible but also something that is bad practice no matter what you're doing
... so it's not really something for the webmention spec: don't make your system vulnterable to get requests

sandro: Never install webmention if you're behind a firewall? You are endangering everything esle behind the firewall

aaronpk: only if yoru system has access to both sides of the firewall

tantek: we should call this out in the security and privacy?

aaronpk: what am I calling out? dont' put insecure systems on the internet?
... what am I supposed to say?

<KevinMarks_> refer to https://www.w3.org/Protocols/rfc2616/rfc2616-sec9.html 9.1.1

sandro: this is putting a system that is perfectly secure in a .. behind a firewall which may seem reasonable because it can't do anythign except webmention, but people might not realise that a putting a blog tha timplements webmention behind a firewall in a way that it has access to the internet

aaronpk: it has to have server access to the internet in order to receive a webmention in the firs tplace
... you'd have to put an http server inside your firewall that also listens publicly

<KevinMarks_> "In particular, the convention has been established that the GET and HEAD methods SHOULD NOT have the significance of taking an action other than retrieval. These methods ought to be considered "safe""

sandro: behind the firewall you have a simple blog and the blog does a post that happens to mention something else behind the firewall and does the webmention processing, dereferences the url that the user put in the post, and that thing out there says go to this url as my webmention endpoint, does that, that was behind the firewall..

aaronpk: oh okay

hhalpin: why is this not a problem for any system that lets you put arbitrary urls as input? not just webmention

aaronpk: sandro described the actual attack vector
... blog inside firewall does not listen on internet, has no public endpoint

<KevinMarks_> how is this different from a hyperlink in the browser that you click inside the firewall?

aaronpk: a person behind firewall writes a post with a linkt o the attacker
... blog makes request to attacker
... attacker can then cause the internal system to make a request to another internal system, if the webmention endpoint of the attacker is inside the firewall
... when I was addressing this it sounded like I was describing really basic security practices and didnt' want to sound condescending

cwebber2: would it be possible to post to localhost? cos that sounds like the biggest risk

aaronpk: it could make the software that is verifying the webmention post to itself

cwebber2: can't post to anythign else on a different port on localhost?

aaronpk: the attackers url can advertise a webmention endpoint, which can be anything including localhost, a port,

cwebber2: there are definitely security things with servers that allow you to access..

aaronpk: it's only ever going to post source and target
... I would be willing to add an exception that says if it encounters localhost or 127.* then drop it
... I'd be happy to put that in security considerations
... Maybe not obvoius, definitely specific to webmention

eprodrom: and don't repeat failures?

<hhalpin> This seems to be a generic problem for any spec that has an 1) input and then 2) takes URLs from that input and GETs them.

eprodrom: could be DOS
... do exponential backoff if you need to

aaronpk: definitely will put in about not sending to localhost

<hhalpin> I mean, not sending webmention to localhost makes sense

sandro: I'm thinking of basically saying don't allow a webmention system to cross the firewall

eprodrom: firewall is a loose term

tantek: someone can publish an html document that has img src="localhost.../dosomething" you load that and it accesses your localhost
... or you can check the html spec and see what it says about image loading and how they treat that problem
... because cross domain images obviously work
... so that's one analogous example
... Also, rel=stylesheet
... well defined, interoperable, well hardened
... Those are two places you could look to see how they solve this and copy taht

<sandro> +1 tantek this is like the browser fetching an image or stylesheet

tantek: if it's good enough for a browser it's good enough for webmention

<ben_thatmustbeme> +1

aaronpk: okay

<Zakim> annbass, you wanted to ask same question that KevinMarks asked

<hhalpin> +1 (but worth further thinking about)

annbass: KM asked the same question - how is this different than a regular hyperlink going out through the firewall

aaronpk: a hyperlink a person has to click on

<hhalpin> The trick is that the link is automatically ran

<hhalpin> by the webmention spec

aaronpk: this is a side effect of writing a blog post that links to an attackers url, but the person doesn't have to click the link

<tantek> hhalpin, just like an image is automatically loaded

annbass: i see

<hhalpin> although lots of other possible apps outside webmention could do this

<tantek> image, iframes, scripts, stylesheets

<tantek> etc.

aaronpk: but similar to receiving a phishing email and having a person click the link
... The result then is I'm going to find that language and it should clear it up

<wilkie> even sandboxed iframes can do cross-domain GETs for stylesheets and scripts


scribe: bengo had suggestion of discovery steps addition of having a 4th step checking a .well-known to find the webmention endpoint
... which lets you delegate an entire domain to a webmention endopint without having to add it as a link header
... Question is, is this worth it or is a http link header enough to support whole domain delegation

<Loqi> Tantekelik made 1 edit to [[Socialwg/2016-03-16]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=97784&oldid=97783

scribe: One path forward is say: the http link header can be configured at the server level so that's enough to support server-wide delegation
... You're a large orgnaisation with many different subsystems, which is pretty common, wanting to have a single webmention endpoint across the whole thing
... the http link header can be configured at the server, not the software, so maybe that's enough
... Other option is to add this well-known and add it at-risk since ther eare no implementations right now
... See if anyone implements, and if not drop it

tantek: last time this came up we resolved to stick with follow your nose
... which this is not

aaronpk: I think bengos' arguement that this was new information is a use case that many different kinds of software installed that we hadn't considered when making that resolution
... My proposal to clos ethis with no action is justified by an http link header can be configured server wise

<rhiaro> DIdn't he also say something about not being able to configure the http header?

aaronpk: I think it's the same amount of work organisationally to add the .well-known path as it would to configure the link header

eprodrom: the link rel is registered and defined right? So since there is host-meta, the link is already there in http
... if someone wants to go sniffing around and wants to try some bottom of the barrel ways to try it, there are ways for them to do it already with the link-rel
... The worst would be to say if you still can't find it try other ways of turning a link-rel into an endpoint

aaronpk: I'd rather not recommend another way for senders to find endpoints, there are already 3 and they have to do ALL of them
... And if you add a 4th they'll have to do that also and it's a very different mechanism
... Now you're dealing with parsing link headers (already non trivial), parsing html, then you'd have to also parse xml, also parse json

hhalpin: what are the current ones?

aaronpk: http link header, html link tag and html a tag

hhalpin: not being able to modify the link header is common if you don't have full control
... but then the a tag should work

aaronpk: if you do have full control you're in the same position to add .well-known as to create link header

hhalpin: but if you can create directoreis and put files in you can't add a link header
... but then the a tag should be fine
... In the normal web development world, lots of people don't even know link headers exist
... but almost everyone knows how to parse html
... As long as there's a way of putting it in without link headers

aaronpk: totally

sandro: my question si do you ever want to be able to do webmention on a jpeg withotu a link header
... I think that's not worth worryign about, but I can see that someone might think it is

<hhalpin> I'm going to note that this came up with Objective8 and D-CENT

<hhalpin> I.e. problems with Link headers (i.e. their developers didn't know HTTP Link headers existed)

aaronpk: sounds like we're okay with slight limitations with current discovery
... Which support vast majority of use cases

<hhalpin> However, it was easy to get folks to add to the HTML

sandro: anything about how you have to parse html?

aaronpk: I think it just says to look for the rel

sandro: html5?

aaronpk: normatively references http link header 5988 and also says ... no doesn't reference html in discovery

sandro: so test suite should have corner cases about how it appears in html
... and how they differ in closing angle bracket missing etc

aaronpk: I have a ton of that test data already


scribe: waiting on IANA to accept
... paragraph added to spec


scribe: Just need to add, tried to do last night, didnt' get to it, but tantek threw some ideas my way so I should be able to do that now
... And done.

tantek: so you have all issues with a resolution, outstanding editing to do

aaronpk: these three require editing that we agreed to already that I need to do
... And then conformance requiremetns sectiion I don't have anything we can review right now but we're not going to cr so

tantek: add by when?

aaronpk: if we can agree to publish a new draft I can add it in that process

tantek: if you commit to adding one we can say publish it with the edits we've agreed to

aaronpk: yep

tantek: do you have a path forward on all issues?

aaronpk: yes

Resolutions to publish

tantek: we already resolved to publish new AS2 drafts with edits in the pipeline
... So any of the others things that editors want to publish new drafts of?

aaronpk: yes webmention
... I do have a change on micropub to register with iana, queued up, however not a lot of other changes, so I still would like to publish but it's not a huge change

eprodrom: activitypub?
... Does it make sense to make a resolution right now to publish with discussed edits?

tantek: do you want to give the group a chacne to review your changes before doing another resolution to publish, or are there enough changes the group already agreed to that you can publish once you make them
... Or do you want more time for those changes plus any others?

cwebber2: Okay we'll make those changes first that the group agreed to
... Then do more after that

tsyesika: we fix the bugs the group agreed to and publish

cwebber2: right, yes

tantek: one proposal?

PROPOSAL: Resolve to publish webmention, micropub and activitypub pending changes agreed by the wg this face-to-face

<ben_thatmustbeme> +1

<eprodrom> +1


<aaronpk> +1

<tantek> +1

<cwebber2> ~1

<cwebber2> wait

<cwebber2> +1

<hhalpin> +1

<tsyesika> +1

<wilkie> +1

<sandro> +1

RESOLUTION: Resolve to publish webmention, micropub and activitypub pending changes agreed by the wg this face-to-face

<KevinMarks_> +1

any other business

eprodrom: we have spare time, so anything else for next 25 minutes?

sandro: hopefully quick..
... I thought more about github spec labels yesterday and cut down to 10
... from 16

<sandro> https://github.com/sandhawke/spec-labels-min

<sandro> https://github.com/sandhawke/spec-labels-min/labels?sort=name-asc

sandro: It has its own issues

<hhalpin> Quick notes, we have assembled a group of security/privacy experts to look at decentralization https://nextleap.eu

<hhalpin> And the W3C WebAuth group is likely to have one-factor cryptographic authentication in browsers end of this-year, early-next year

<hhalpin> https://www.w3.org/Webauthn/

<KevinMarks_> does the editor apply these or the commenter?

<hhalpin> No changes needed by specs, but just resources and new W3C work

sandro: Editor, or someone with write access to repo

eprodrom: is there an action we can take now?
... Review them and deicde if we're going to apply them to our spec repos?

tantek: first 6 seems self explanatory
... What's process communiyt?

sandro: Where someone says "I don't understand how this group works"
... Not for the editors, but they come up
... "Let me speak to your manager"

<Loqi> Tantekelik made 1 edit to [[Socialwg/2016-03-16]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=97785&oldid=97784

tantek: I think we might need something stronger
... Like 'needs chair input' or something

cwebber2: what if it's just like "I'm not sure if this has somethign to do with it" and the editor doesn't know either

tantek: this is for the editor to say "this is not about my spec, this is a group issue, sending to chairs"

sandro: I like this being able to used by groups that aren't w3c, that's why I said 'process community' not chair, to generalise

annbass: but... your example where you said there were issues that were people saying they were being ignored, I was takign that to mean there's been some discomfort of different technical positions proposed and feeling like they're blown off
... THat's in a different category than waiting for management approval

tantek: that's "commentors are unsatisfied by response", that's there
... The director will look at each one of these and see if the commetnor has merit

hhalpin: Do we need to note this unless there's a formal objection?

sandro: the director does like to knwo who is satisfied and who is unsatisfied

hhalpin: I've always just listed formal objections

sandro: talked to Philippe about this

eprodrom: are we comfortable with these labels?

tantek: "waiting for commentor" could mean two different things

sandro: ther'es not a lot o you can do until you hear back

tantek: could be differnet for open vs closed

sandro: if it's closed you might be waiting to see if they're satisfied or not

tantek: 'waiting for group input' -> 'needs group input'

<hhalpin> I think we should note that people were unhappy, but if someone (unsatisfied commenter) proposes a technical solution and it doesn't meet the group's requirements (i.e. its not implemented, has no interest from more than one implementer, or has known technical flaws) then the group can argue simply than the unsatisfied commenter did not satisfiy the groups requirement.

tantek: Do we really need the last one?

sandro: james used that tag sometimes
... on as2
... standard github one
... ('help')

tantek: is that pr requested?

aaronpk: 'happy to have this in there but I'm not gonna do it'

sandro: so, needs volunteer?

tantek: stronger than that

wilkie: point of entry for new people too

tantek: I like that
... If we can phrase it in a way that makes it welcoming for new folks

sandro: 'needs volunteer'

everyone: k

tantek: can we collapse the first two? commentor needs no response and satisfied by response

sandro: just 'commentor satsified'

*bikeshedding about colours of labels*

<KevinMarks_> as opposed to Commenter Generally Unsatisified With Life?

tantek: do the editors understand these

aaronpk: what's the rule on timeout?

annbass: will there be a definition documented?

aaronpk: are there some I can't use without group consensus?

sandro: talk the group before doing a commentor timeout
... And expect that director will look at commentor satisifed and commentor not satisfied

aaronpk: and waiting for commentor?

sandro: before timeout, or waiting for more information before you can address the issue

<tsyesika> https://github.com/w3c-social/activitypub/labels :)

eprodrom: resolved that, 3 minutes left
... AOB?

ben_thatmustbeme: if anyone wants to help co-write jf2 who knows more about writing specs?

<KevinMarks_> I am happy to help

ben_thatmustbeme: Kevin had offered to help with it I think

<KevinMarks_> yes

<KevinMarks_> jolly good

PROPOSED: make KevinMarks a coeditor of jf2

RESOLVED (by chairs): make KevinMarks a coeditor of jf2

eprodrom: no telecon next tuesday
... Next telecon 29th March
... Next f2f in Portland
... Any plans to do something social this evening?

<KevinMarks_> good luck finding a quiet place tonight

<wilkie> lol true

eprodrom: End!

RRSAgent end meeting

<ben_thatmustbeme> trackbot end meeting

Summary of Action Items

Summary of Resolutions

  1. reserve Thursday/Friday for meeting at TPAC in Lisbon
  2. Drop Action Handlers Editor's Draft from our list of working group drafts, without prejudice
  3. publish new AS2 working drafts with outstanding (agreed, reviewed) edits completed
  4. Resolve to publish webmention, micropub and activitypub pending changes agreed by the wg this face-to-face
[End of minutes]

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$Date: 2016/03/17 21:43:12 $

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Succeeded: s/taking/looking at what is needed next for taking/
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Succeeded: s/I think this should still be a community effort./My suggestion is to move the IG to be a Community Group (CG), so that anyone in the world can participate, without being a W3C member or Invited Expert./
Succeeded: s/I've met and talked to Syrian people who were caught and tortured and I've asked them what they use for social tools and communication and they say "whatever we can find"/I suggest the main goal of the CG might be to collect additional social use cases that we haven't thought of, especially from people who haven't participated before, or who are from cultural environments we personally haven't experienced./
Succeeded: s/our interest in the consortium/Also, I am now co-chairing the W3C Positive Work Environment Task Force (PWET) with Amy van der Hiel. Our interest in the consortium/
Succeeded: s/yeah, and how/how/
Succeeded: s/yeah. but we've all seen that. and what can we do./I'm not sure about that. But we've all seen it in various situations. What can we do to improve?/
Succeeded: s/has not/has/
Succeeded: s/people don't realize even if you call it out /people don't realize THEY have behaved that way, even when you call it out; /
Succeeded: s/or date/or boolean/
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Found Scribe: ben_thatmustbeme
Inferring ScribeNick: ben_thatmustbeme
Found ScribeNick: ben_thatmustbeme
Found Scribe: Ben Roberts
Found ScribeNick: aaronpk
Found ScribeNick: ben_thatmust
Found Scribe: cwebber2
Found ScribeNick: cwebber2
Found Scribe: rhiaro
Found ScribeNick: rhiaro
Found Scribe: wilkie
Inferring ScribeNick: wilkie
Found ScribeNick: ben_thatmustbeme
Found Scribe: sandro
Inferring ScribeNick: sandro
Found Scribe: rhiaro
Inferring ScribeNick: rhiaro
Scribes: ben_thatmustbeme, Ben Roberts, cwebber2, rhiaro, wilkie, sandro
ScribeNicks: ben_thatmustbeme, aaronpk, ben_thatmust, cwebber2, rhiaro, wilkie, sandro
Default Present: tantek, wilkie, dmitriz, rhiaro, aaronpk, shevski, ben_thatmustbeme, cwebber, tsyesika, sandro, Karli, AnnBass
Present: tantek wilkie dmitriz rhiaro aaronpk shevski ben_thatmustbeme cwebber tsyesika sandro Karli AnnBass
Agenda: https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/2016-03-16#Agenda
Found Date: 16 Mar 2016
Guessing minutes URL: http://www.w3.org/2016/03/16-social-minutes.html
People with action items: 

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