<trackbot> Date: 25 November 2014

<jasnell> zakim?

<jasnell> sorry... how do I check to see if I'm on zakim again?

<cwebber2> dialing in

<cwebber2> I'm having trouble connecting

<cwebber2> trying again

<ShaneHudson> So am I

<cwebber2> I can connect but I get no prompt

<ShaneHudson> Same thing here, no one is saying "you have connected to.."

<cwebber2> I think SIP is screwed up

<cwebber2> is anyone else in on SIP succesfully?

<jessica_lily> I'm on sip

<elf-pavlik> cwebber2, me

<cwebber2> hm :\

<elf-pavlik> jessica_lily, no +

<jessica_lily> oh

<jessica_lily> every week >.<

<cwebber2> I can dial in to other services

<ShaneHudson> Still nothing here :(

<Loqi> *sniff*

<Loqi> harry: tantek left you a message on 11/21 at 12:08pm: I hear you're doing a good job of nudging WG mailing list discussions to be more on-topic and in-scope.

<bblfish> thanks Arnaud

<ShaneHudson> zakim@voip.w3.org doesn't seem to be responding

<elf-pavlik> ShaneHudson, it took me 2 tries

<ShaneHudson> elf-pavlik: I've tried about 20 so far lol

<Arnaud> ShaneHudson: are you joining?

<ShaneHudson> harry: I will scribe if I can get in. Currently can't join, not sure why

<harry> scribe: harry

<evanpro> Thanks harry

<ShaneHudson> harry: No, using the telephone app. Normally works fine

<ShaneHudson> It is called Telephone

<Arnaud> PROPOSED: approve minutes of 18 November 2014 https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/2014-11-18-minutes

<evanpro> +1

+1

<wilkie> +1

<elf-pavlik> +1

<ShaneHudson> +1

<jessica_lily> +1

<Arnaud> RESOLVED: approve minutes of 18 November 2014 https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/2014-11-18-minutes

<cwebber2> +1

Arnaud: Next meeting Dec 2nd
... a word about editing minutes
... I understand its painful
... RRSAgent generates minutes
... we'd always have to go through Team Contact to get raw text
... an ability to edit minutes via HTTP PUT might work
... still experimental

<elf-pavlik> https://www.w3.org/2014/data-shapes/wiki/Editing_Minutes

<dromasca> ??P14 is me

Arnaud: what we are doing now to generate minutes is too much hassle

<Loqi> Arnaud has 1 karma

Arnaud: re putting HTML to wiki-page
... but we must have to a proper record
... we need to clean, as scribe can't do a perfect job

<scribe> ... in process of handing geekiness

We could ask RRSagent to generate wikipages via PanDoc?

tantek: Wikis are pretty easy, might be easier than HTTP PUT
... that would allow anyone to fix small problems

pandoc is pretty good!

<cwebber2> last one is me

<ShaneHud_> Right I'm in. Had a VPN issue. Had to reconnect IRC too

<cwebber2> hm

Arnaud: But cutting and pasting
... the wikipage is too painful

<elf-pavlik> where do we find code for rrsagent?

How about using RRSAgent to produce native wiki-pages?

Arnaud: Systeam is busy, couldn't hurt

Actions

<Arnaud> http://www.w3.org/Social/track/actions/open

<ShaneHud_> harry: Yeah sure, do I just do scribe: shane?

<scribe> scribe: ShaneHud_

<scribe> scribenick: ShaneHud_

<AnnBassetti> Pandoc: http://johnmacfarlane.net/pandoc/

<harry> EvanPro: Done with mine

<harry> tantek: I'm done with mine

Arnaud: Actions 4 and 13 can be closed

<elf-pavlik> evanpro, can you add link to http://www.w3.org/Social/track/actions/13 ?

(Correct me if I get names wrong)

<jasnell> https://www.w3.org/wiki/Activity_Streams/Expanded_Vocabulary

jasnell: Can close once people have reviewed the draft, plan to review next week

<evanpro> elf-pavlik, you mean add a link to the Twitter API page?

<Arnaud> http://www.w3.org/Social/track/issues/raised

<elf-pavlik> yes, so everyone can just follow nose...

<jasnell> People can check out the extended vocabulary changes by cloning the repo from github and checking out the "extended-vocabulary" branch.

Arnaud: Issue 11 should not be currently raised, what needs to happen?

<harry> Yes, can probably do that

<elf-pavlik> +1 open

evanpro: Since we are working on the namespace, issue 11 should be opened

harry: Assign to me

<harry> No problem, just had issue re Content Negotiation

<harry> and serving the right headers etc last time I did this dance

<harry> so feel free to assign this issue to me and we'll see if we can make it happen.

Arnaud: The right thing to do may be to close issue 11 and create an action for harry to follow up

<elf-pavlik> sounds good!

<wilkie> rhiaro: :(

<AnnBassetti> Sandro advises that Harry does not need SysTeam to do that; rather, find someone who has done it before .. such as <who was it>

<elf-pavlik> rhiaro, i can give you access to skype account with some credits you could use (firend donated it to me)

<harry> ACTION: hhalpin to set up JSON-LD context for namespace [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/11/25-social-minutes.html#action01]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-14 - Set up json-ld context for namespace [on Harry Halpin - due 2014-12-02].

<harry> s/<who was it>/Greg Kellogg

<harry> Of course, I might add this whole dance with conneg and serving media types explains why no actual web developers do this sort of thing.

<harry> Which means, in general, making it normative is usually a bad idea IMHO

<evanpro> I can't do the 4th and 5th

<harry> but for consistency's sake it should be done

Dates for f2f

<bblfish> where is this meeting taking place?

<evanpro> Thanks, sorry about that

<AnnBassetti> /

<cwebber2> 4th and 5h of... march was it?

Arnaud: MIT will welcome us. March 10/11/12 may work?

<evanpro> Yes, great for me

<evanpro> It's SxSW that week

<cwebber2> works for me, the next week though

<cwebber2> is even better

The downsides of not working for a large company is not being able to simply fly to MIT haha

<cwebber2> week of march 15 is even better because it's the week before libreplanet

<cwebber2> then I don't have to head to boston twice :)

<wilkie> that would be good for me

Arnaud: Adding second week of March to Doodle poll

tantek: Add week after that?

<harry> How many Europeans would come to a f2f in MIT?

<rhiaro> I would!

<evanpro> https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/Social_API/Foursquare_API

Arnaud: evanpro will give us an update on Foursquare

<tantek> who just joined?

evanpro: Not taking good or bad lessons, just trying to understand the APIs
... Foursquare lets users develop relationships with places as well as people
... Uses OAuth2, partially based on Twitter's mechanism

<jessica_lily> harry: nope, costs too much to fly from UK to boston. I would if it was around the same time as another event (e.g. libreplanet)

evanpro: Concept of user and person, as well as venue and place. Business, restuarants. Outdoors areas, neighbourhoods, airport gates

<cwebber2> jessica_lily and I will probably be in boston for libreplanet, which is the 21-22 of march

<cwebber2> so if it was the previous week

<cwebber2> we could be in for both

evanpro: Users can create tips and lists of places
... Lists managed by individual users
... Mechanisms for special deals at venues
... Link events to venues, play at theatre

<cwebber2> it might be a lot harder us to attend then if the week of the 9th, but week of the 16th is much easier

evanpro: Events have specific time and place
... About 105 endpoints, broad API

<tantek> seems like a common problem - so many endpoints (Twitter, Foursquare)

evanpro: A lot of the same endpoints for different types. Content managed by create/read tips/checkins/lists
... Geographical vocab is created by users

<sandro> tantek, I wonder if they view it as a problem

<tantek> /me welcome back rhiaro

evanpro: Lots of endpoints for managing places
... Each user has a number of feed endpoints for each type of content

<tantek> sandro - as a *developer* - more endpoints = more complexity

<tantek> in both cases, the endpoints were likely accreted over time.

evanpro: Inbox where they can see checkins by friends and people they follow
... Social graph endpoints, partially because it is sensitive it is two way - requires approval between users. Contrast with Twitter's 1 way social graph

<tantek> still - perhaps there's an API design anti-pattern here we can learn from

<tantek> and learn to avoid

evanpro: Users can create responses to types of content, comments and likes on most types
... Little bit of resharing but not very common

<tantek> you can also follow humans that have over 1000 "friends"

<sandro> tantek, I agree it seems that way upfront, but it MIGHT be that funneling that complexity through fewer endpoints doesn't really simplify but just moves it around. (I'm exploring this idea -- I don't really believe it.)

evanpro: Some non-human things, such as following lists or multi venue brand pages like Starbucks or McDonalds

<tantek> or rather, Foursquare turns people into "brands" when they get 1000+ friends

evanpro: Some search endpoints for users and content
... Content reporting endpoints

<tantek> e.g. Scoble

<aaronpk> but Scoble *is* a brand :P

evanpro: Some endpoints for managing, reading and updating user profile
... Brand management endpoints
... Owner of venue can claim and manage venue information. Hours, contact, specials, events etc

<AdamB> there are a lot of diff use cases those end points are suporting

evanpro: Not quite finished looking at that
... Page is up on wiki and I would welcome any edits https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/Social_API/Foursquare_API

<cwebber2> I doubt we're going to need so many endpoints, since thsi looks like almost all of this probably would work with posting activities

evanpro: Any questions?

<cwebber2> but this is interesting for at least what vocabulary we need

tantek: Did you notice any patterns? So many duplicated endpoints for different content types

evanpro: Really good question, both Twitter and Foursquare API have hundreds of endpoints, some redundant. Suggestions, deprecation etc through APIs
... Version management in API

<elf-pavlik> we could also look at version management of verious APIs

evanpro: Design principle appears to be 85 endpoints makes it easy to just add another
... Instead of restructure entire mechansim

<AdamB> have to keep backwards compatibility if you make changes

<AdamB> so easier to add new ones

sandro: Continuing on, when I see these endpoints I see them as being very simple operations on a data. Each being like 3 lines of code.
... As I try to picture the database, I want to know what the fields are on each of the entities. Maybe not in scope of particular investigation.
... Bits of the data models are bubbling up as endpoints, so to speak
... Are they documented anywhere?

<elf-pavlik> sandro, i want to propose it for IG Vocabulary TF

sandro: Text, venue, date, list of feedback etc

Sorry, missed that bit

<evanpro> ACTION evanpro link to entity description in Foursquare API

<trackbot> Error finding 'evanpro'. You can review and register nicknames at <http://www.w3.org/Social/track/users>.

<AdamB> none of these systems have simple DBs at all

sandro: Are there any that aren't actually database operations?

evanpro: Yes, most are CRUD
... Relationship, reading, updating object in system
... Foursquare is not a general purpose API, it is for a very specific geographically oriented social networks. No groups or videos

<evanpro> Arnaud: thanks,s orry

<evanpro> ACTION eprodrom link to entity description in Foursquare API

<trackbot> Created ACTION-16 - Link to entity description in foursquare api [on Evan Prodromou - due 2014-12-02].

<sandro> Hmmm, venues/trending is likely more sophisticated than CRUD

bblfish: If you look at these and remove the CRUD things you may be able to reduce by a factor of 6 by a HTTP verb instead of endpoint for each object
... POST on every endpoint, could be using DELETE etc.

<Zakim> tantek, you wanted to note Foursquare API does cover "notes" (e.g. attached to a checkin, but used to allow self-standing as "shouts"), "photos" (also attached to a checkin), thus

bblfish: Better caching

<AnnBassetti> (bblfish = Henry Story)

tantek: In watching the evolution of foursquare, the trend is the evolve to be generic.
... Every photo posting service evolves to videos
... Foursquare might add videos
... Pretty clear they are growing their API

<cwebber2> btw, this brings up an important point

<bblfish> if I can summarise: there are a lot of repeating end points such as search, delete, add, search, etc.... This looks like a duplication of what HTTP verbs do. There is POST for create, DELETE for deleting a resource, PATCH for changing, PUT for replacing, and even WebDav SEARCH

tantek: So we should assume that's their path

<cwebber2> we haven't really spoken about how to post media

Arnaud: Start specialised then expand

<cwebber2> such as images/video

<bblfish> so one could reduce the endpoints by 5 or 6 probably just by using verbs

<elf-pavlik> https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/Social_API/Facebook_API

<cwebber2> whether or not that would be a separate submission from the activity post

elf-pavlik: Facebook API works in concept of social graph
... Provides HTTP client for explorer tool
... Requires authentication
... Nodes are entities - user, page etc.
... Some have screen names
... 12 digit id or username
... The nodes have edit
... User has events and different edges
... when you access graph api, you use id and each node has a link to the facebook url
... Reminds me of schema.org using id and url
... id could be endpoint api, and url could be CDN etc
... You can make requests and return a default set of fields, can define which fields you want
... Embed other resources, top 5 posts for example
... enumerations for vocab

<Loqi> it'll be ok

elf-pavlik: I didn't do much on collections and paging yet

<sandro> Oh, very interesting: backdated_time_granularity(photo): year, month, day, hour, min, none

elf-pavlik: HTTP verbs, GET POST and DELETE
... GET request to API for metadata

<aaronpk> flickr also supports the idea of date granularity https://www.flickr.com/services/api/misc.dates.html

elf-pavlik: Some mismatch between documentation and metadata

<aaronpk> but fewer options: "Y-m-d H:i:s", "Y-m", "Y" and "Circa"

elf-pavlik: Lots of entities, linked to pages
... subtypes
... Page categories have main categories and sub categories. Listed 6 groupings, some more details on IG
... A comment or post can have like, comment, share is UI but not API response.
... There is an actions array. Cannot make a POST to submit like
... Looks like an hypermedia attempt, but not fully implemented
... Graph search can let you say "My friends who live in Paris" but API doesn't provide that
... Examples on wiki such as two people being friends or liking a page
... Start with id of entity followed by the entity type
... Response to events allows POST event with maybe or decline or attending
... You can get edges in multiple ways such as /feed/links or /me/events etc. (did I get that right?)

<tantek> how does "interested" or "saved" show up in the Events API?

<sandro> so great, thank you very much elf-pavlik

<bblfish> Thanks Elf

Arnaud: Thank you Elf and Evan. Out of time now

<AnnBassetti> +1

<evanpro> +1 thanks Arnaud

<tantek> i.e. FB UI has ability to "save" an event, or indicate that you're interested. wondering how you do that with the API

Arnaud: Move on to Activity Streams

<tantek> jasnell: I'll try to get those pull-requests to fix the microformats examples etc. in the extended-vocab page sometime today

jasnell: Follow on from conversations about the common implementations of types and verbs

<Arnaud> http://rawgit.com/jasnell/w3c-socialwg-activitystreams/extended-vocabulary/activitystreams2.html

<Arnaud> http://rawgit.com/jasnell/w3c-socialwg-activitystreams/extended-vocabulary/activitystreams2-vocabulary.html

jasnell: I have created the drafts link on github repo
... Significant expansion of object types
... Need basic level of interoperbility
... At this point, does the group feel it is heading in the right direction?

evanpro: I feel it is moving down a great path. One comment regarding keeping synonyms. Does the structure of vocab need us to do that?

<tantek> hmm - people treat favorite & like differently sometimes - experience in IndieWebCamp and analysis of silos

evanpro: There may have been sense in AS1.0 but do we need to keep them for 2.0

<tantek> and sometimes fave & like are treated the same in by people's sites

evanpro: Posting a blog entry to my blog, the object is the entry and target is the blog
... Like and favourite are often synonyms but naunced differences
... 500px has likes and hearts
... Not clear whether we can collapse it

<Zakim> elf-pavlik, you wanted to discuss IG Vocabulary TF

<tantek> see http://indiewebcamp.com/like and http://indiewebcamp.com/favorite for some differences

<tantek> in particular: http://indiewebcamp.com/favorite#Differences_From_Like

<AdamB> we also support "Adam recommended the answer ....."

elf-pavlik: Coordinating with IG, like to work on mapping with alternatives

<oshepherd> While on the subject, As I've discussed with tantek (and will E-Mail the list), I'm in favor of dropping the "post" activity in favor of just putting the object there

<tantek> see silo examples here: http://indiewebcamp.com/like#Silo_Examples

cwebber2++

<Loqi> cwebber2 has 7 karma

<AdamB> well job on the examples james

jasnell: Microformat examples are currently sketchy. Loose some of the information

<cwebber2> rhiaro: :)

jasnell: Need folks to look at AS and map to Microformats

<AdamB> in addition to like/favorite

tantek: Thank you jasnell, will commit to reviewing the MF examples

<cwebber2> the examples are super nice

<cwebber2> tantek is fading out here

We've lost you tantek

<cwebber2> tantek got swallowed by a wave

<elf-pavlik> tantek, can you type it ?

tantek said something about MF not needing the extra info

<tantek> right, in some cases, there is no "loss" per se in converting to microformats, but rather, may be areas where indiewebcamp etc. found "YAGNI" in ActivityStreams - that is, features, properties, aspects that were just unnecessary in practice when posting to the social web.

<tantek> YAGNI: http://indiewebcamp.com/YAGNI

<cwebber2> great meeting!

<evanpro> Thanks Arnaud!

Arnaud: Closing call, thank you everybody for joining

<cwebber2> and yes thanks ShaneHud_ :)

You're welcome

<tantek> ShaneHudson++ for minuting!

<Loqi> ShaneHudson has 14 karma

<cwebber2> ShaneHud_: ++

<elf-pavlik> thanks Arnaud++ ShaneHud_++

<wilkie> thanks!

<cwebber2> oh ShaneHud_++

<tiborKatelbach> thanks bye

<tantek> thanks Arnaud!

Thanks. Can anyone point me towards how to sort out the minutes?

<tantek> Shane, pretty sure that's documented on our wiki page

<tantek> if not, let's start an FAQ :)

<elf-pavlik> https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg#Scribes ShaneHud_

<tantek> thanks elf-pavlik !

<Arnaud> trackbot, end meeting

elf-pavlik: cheers

This is scribe.perl Revision: 1.140  of Date: 2014-11-06 18:16:30  
Check for newer version at http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/

Guessing input format: RRSAgent_Text_Format (score 1.00)

Succeeded: s/rssagent/rrsagent/
FAILED: s/<who was it>/Greg Kellogg/
Succeeded: s/, Sandro?//
Succeeded: s/me no worries, Evan .. .life takes precedence//
Found Scribe: harry
Inferring ScribeNick: harry
WARNING: No scribe lines found matching previous ScribeNick pattern: <ShaneHud_> ...
Found Scribe: ShaneHud_
Found ScribeNick: ShaneHud_
Scribes: harry, ShaneHud_
ScribeNicks: ShaneHud_, harry
Default Present: jasnell, Arnaud, rhiaro, elf-pavlik, tantek, +1.514.554.aaaa, evanpro, +972.3.645.aabb, jessica_lily, Sandro, +1.314.705.aacc, wilkie, Lloyd_Fassett_, AdamB, +33.6.47.14.aadd, dromasca, bblfish, hhalpin, Ann, +1.773.614.aaee, ShaneHud_, aaronpk, +1.773.614.aaff, tiborKatelbach, Doug_Schepers
Present: jasnell Arnaud rhiaro elf-pavlik tantek +1.514.554.aaaa evanpro +972.3.645.aabb jessica_lily Sandro +1.314.705.aacc wilkie Lloyd_Fassett_ AdamB +33.6.47.14.aadd dromasca bblfish hhalpin Ann +1.773.614.aaee ShaneHud_ aaronpk +1.773.614.aaff tiborKatelbach Doug_Schepers
Agenda: https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/2014-11-25
Found Date: 25 Nov 2014
Guessing minutes URL: http://www.w3.org/2014/11/25-social-minutes.html
People with action items: hhalpin