Social Web Working Group Teleconference

16 Sep 2014


See also: IRC log


elf-pavlik, +972.3.645.aaaa, dromasca, +1.503.342.aabb, Arnaud, +1.559.707.aacc, aaronpk, Sandro, +1.412.370.aadd, +1.303.204.aaee, jasnell, wilkie, dskiba, deiu, jtauber, Shane, barnabywalters, markus, akuckartz_, oshepherd, +26226234aaff, bret, tiborKatelbach


<trackbot> Date: 16 September 2014

<hhalpin> does anyone believe their invited expert application is still not accepted?

<hhalpin> KevinMarks, I'm talkin to you :)

<hhalpin> [not accepted because we haven't received it - again, there was an error in SysTeams when setting up the WG with cc'ing chairs and me with IE applications, so missing things is quite probable right now]

<Shane> I am not on my usual machine today, is it fine for me to just stick to IRC for this meeting?

<hhalpin> yep, you can lurk in IRC

<tantek> Shane, I am only on IRC for this meeting

<tantek> because I'm in a different W3C meeting in person

<Shane> Excellent :) saves a lot of hassle!

<elf-pavlik> hi Shane, hhalpin, tantek :)

<tantek> hello elf-pavlik !

<Shane> elf-pavlik: Hi :)

<wilkie> hello

<elf-pavlik> hi wilkie!

<wilkie> elf-pavlik: hi! great work on the comparisons wiki pages

<wilkie> I've been following intently

<elf-pavlik> wilkie, thanks! i think of using something like SFW for side to side comparison http://fed.wiki.org/view/welcome-visitors/plugins.fed.wiki.org/about-plugins/plugins.fed.wiki.org/core-plugins

<elf-pavlik> preferably each page could live on a wiki of particular working group, but for now i just need better way to compare things

<wilkie> hey, sounds good. I'll follow your lead. If you get a reasonable boilerplate up it will be more obvious where somebody can contribute.

<wilkie> my 2c would be to do what is easiest

<wilkie> and then delegate some tasks to me to fill out stuff because I will gladly do that if I know I won't step on your toes

<rhiaro> Hi, I'm also going to have to stick to irc for this one

<elf-pavlik> hi rhiaro :) check out what i worked on during remoteStorage hack day last saturday - http://rshackday.hackdash.org/ :D

<Arnaud> the call is in 11mn!

<Arnaud> 10 now

<rhiaro> elf-pavlick amaaaaaaazing

<rhiaro> Don't calm down!

<Arnaud> lol

<rhiaro> Your intense productivity is inspiring

<rhiaro> I watch mailing lists with awe

<Arnaud> I agree it's great

<Arnaud> my only concern is that you expect everyone else to have as much time to dedicate to this

<Arnaud> I hope you realize that it's not going to be the case

<rhiaro> And as soon as I stop with having an actual job and go back to PhD I hope to be able to contribute a fraction as much

<rhiaro> (2.5 weeks!)

<Arnaud> I don't mean to discourage you, by any means, but know that for most people this is just one of the many things they work on and we can only expect so much from them

<elf-pavlik> Arnaud, I should calibrate my expectations to capacity of everyone else very soon ...

<tantek> elf-pavlik: what's your personal site?

<elf-pavlik> http://wwelves.org/perpetual-tripper

<elf-pavlik> server got offline yesterday thoug :( -- you can try it locally from https://github.com/elf-pavlik/webprofiled

<tantek> oh dear - yeah was just trying http://wwelves.org/ and not getting any response

<elf-pavlik> i need to contact friends from https://as250.net/ again about fixing it!

<tantek> is that your hosting company?

<Arnaud> trackbot, start meeting

<trackbot> Meeting: Social Web Working Group Teleconference

<trackbot> Date: 16 September 2014

<barnabywalters> I just joined


<hhalpin> Apologies, wil have to be in IRC rather than phone.

<hhalpin> having a separate meeting at same time.

<aaronpk_> You've got to be kidding. Who plugged in a modem to the call?

<barnabywalters> wow such noises

<Shane> That may have been me, sorry

<barnabywalters> huh it might have been me somehow

<Shane> I will not be able to use microphone but have managed to get onto the call to listen

can anybody hear me


<Shane> akuckartz_: No

<elf-pavlik> http://www.w3.org/2006/tools/wiki/Zakim_Tips

<barnabywalters> P9 is me

then P10 seems to be me...

<barnabywalters> the 41# tip is handy

I seem to be muted but I can try to scribe

yes, but I am muted

Ok, I will try

<Arnaud> scribe: akuckartz_

<deiu> scribenick: akuckartz_

<Shane> I tend to have SIP drop out 30 mins in, but just requires reconnecting

searching for the tpics

Approval of Minutes of 9 September 2014 Teleconf

<hhalpin> https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/2014-09-16

<Arnaud> https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/2014-09-09-minutes

<hhalpin> https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/2014-09-09-minutes

<elf-pavlik> i made one small edit to minutes today: https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?title=Socialwg/2014-09-09-minutes&diff=prev&oldid=76918

Tracking of Actions and Issues

Difficult without beeing able to speak...

<Arnaud> https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/Scribes

action 1 closed.

<trackbot> Error finding '1'. You can review and register nicknames at <http://www.w3.org/Social/track/users>.

close action 1

<elf-pavlik> https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/2014-09-16#Social_data_syntax

next action will be closed by end of week.

close action 3.


Reminder: Registration required to participate in TPAC

<elf-pavlik> https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/2014-10-27

<elf-pavlik> https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/2014-10-28

See https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/2014-09-16#TPAC for details

<hhalpin> Note if you reigster quickly you get a discount on price! Register by Oct 1st - 75 USD vs. 150 USD I think..

Members are asked to provide input for agenda.

<Shane> I've added myself as a remote (depending on times, I'm UK based)

<elf-pavlik> https://www.w3.org/wiki/Talk:Socialwg/2014-10-27

<bret> i just joined the call

<tantek> I propose we use at least 50% of the time of the socialwg TPAC f2f for Barcamp-style sessions.

<Arnaud> ack ??P9

For participants see https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/2014-10-27


We need to finish the list of use-cases at some point. F2F should be used to finish this.

<barnabywalters> huh

<tiborKatelbach> sorry

<barnabywalters> I’m actually dropping out in a sec

<barnabywalters> so you can have my ID :(

<barnabywalters> :)

<tantek> I don't think " finish the list of use-cases" makes sense

<Loqi> it'll be ok

<tantek> I'd rather see the list of use-cases grow over time

<barnabywalters> tiborKatelbach: dial 41# and see what Zakim says

<tiborKatelbach> 41#

<Shane> I agree with tantek, we don't want to limit it too much but just make sure we are working within the scope of the charter

<wilkie> tiborKatelbach: was that you that 41#?

<tiborKatelbach> yep

<tiborKatelbach> sorry

<elf-pavlik> wiki down? http://isup.me/https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg

<elf-pavlik> https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg#Use_Cases

<tiborKatelbach> please repeat the type of use cases your looking for ?

<elf-pavlik> I'll work in next days on https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/Check-In_Use_Case

I try

<tantek> elf-pavlik: before working on the use-case I'd suggest getting your site working!

<elf-pavlik> tantek, of course but friends who host it need to fix their server, i'll sort it out in next days!

Question discussed: Will we create a "final" use case document or one in parallel to the work of the WG?

<tantek> akuckartz_: I don't think any such "final" document makes sense.

<tantek> dated snapshots maybe

<tantek> but we should assuming living use-cases documentation

<rhiaro> +1 to living use case document

Requirements will be based on the use-cases

Members invited to seriously look at the use cases

<rhiaro> People find new crazy things to do with social technology all the time [citation needed]

<Shane> Why is check-in a different page to the other use-cases?

Who will take ownership of the use case document ? Should be more than one person.

<wilkie> with social systems, I believe you are as close to human creativity as possible, so you have to be flexible and use-cases will be surprising and develop as you go

<tantek> why does there need to be "ownership" of the use case document?

<elf-pavlik> I suggested that for group collaboration use cases we can just make sure that we cover our needs for W3 groups

<rhiaro> +1 wilkie

Social Syntax

<elf-pavlik> i didn't create it :) i think james?

This page was created: https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/Social_syntax

<elf-pavlik> akuckartz_, did you capture it?

Members should look at that page. Google invited to join this WG.

especially regarding schema.org

<sandro> elf-pavlik, and everyone else, feel free to scribe your own words

<Shane> I do like the idea of being interoperable across syntaxes if possible

Question discussed: do we need to select one vocabulary or can we be more open ?

<tantek> we should document existing vocabularies *in use* with *actual examples* of URLs of usage

Minimum vocabulary subset should be specified

<markus> do we have a list of what is currently missing in schema.org?

<tantek> why frame it as "missing in schema.org"?

<tantek> why use schema.org as a starting point at all?

<markus> because someone just said some things are missing in schema.org

<tantek> it's shown to be badly overdesigned, e.g. /Volcano has faxmachine

<markus> I'm wondering what those things are

<elf-pavlik> tantek, strong incentive for people to use it - Google, Yahoo, Bing, Yandex supporting it

<tantek> what's missing in schema.org is any sense of minimal design

<wilkie> I agree with having a standard and reasonable subset and then allow graceful extensibility of vocab.

<tantek> elf-pavlik: they claim to use it - actual support is unknown

<wilkie> a minimal base that is

<tantek> schema.org is a horrible starting point

<tantek> elf-pavlik: could you document actual evidence of Google, Yahoo, Bing, Yandex supporting it beyond validation tools?

<tantek> which objects? which properties?

<tantek> not only do I think that's futile, but a waste of time

<markus> why tantek? bad design? too complex? ...?

<tantek> both

<sandro> tantek, http://blog.sgo.to/2014/09/schemaorg-actions-implementations.html

There is no consensus regarding schema.org

<elf-pavlik> https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/Collection_Comparison

<tantek> and frankly, out of order for this working group, since we're working on *openly developed* vocabularies

<tantek> and schema has been developed by an oligopoly at best

<markus> what hasn't? :-)

<tantek> markus - nearly everything else

<tantek> e.g. vCard, hCard, h-card etc.

<tantek> everything in microformats, ActivityStreams etc. was developed fully openly

<tiborKatelbach> as James said it is important to try to pull someone from schema.org into our discussions

<elf-pavlik> Arnaud, -- suggests to fucs on what we need and then based on that look at vocabularies

<tantek> so no, I see no reason to include any use of schema unless there is a member here who feels they need it

We first need to identify and define the information we want to exchange. Then we have a basis for the vocabularies.

<tantek> how about documenting the information we *are* exchanging?

<elf-pavlik> oshepherd, can you add you point to https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/Collection_Comparison

<tantek> as opposed to *want to*

<elf-pavlik> +1 tantek

<tantek> I'd rather make this *real world usage* based

<bret> sandro thats a nice list, but its search centric. any use in a social applicaiton?

<tantek> rather than *arm chair wishlist* based

<rhiaro> I've looked at schema.org wrt connecting humans with creative media they publish in the web (which is in scope for social I reckon) and found it hit and miss, generally not a lot of use

<bret> i guess the email thing is social, but limited to gmail

<tantek> right

<wilkie> microformats and activitystreams > schema.org for everything tantek has said about openness in particular

<markus> +1000 to start with use cases and requirements

<elf-pavlik> Arnaud, -- emphasizes importance of gathering USE CASES and agreeing on them

<wilkie> real world usage and use cases should drive the minimal base vocab/actions

<sandro> bret, I have no idea, sorry. I just was handed that list this morning, when I asked someone at Google about this work.

<bret> ill keep my eyes out too

AcivityStreams 2.0

<tantek> I'm going to point out that "search" and "email" and "app linking" are not among the use-cases / scope that we're looking at in this WG - so EVERY example shown in http://blog.sgo.to/2014/09/schemaorg-actions-implementations.html is out of scope for this working group

<bret> ack! sorry

<tantek> NONE of those are social

Where do we stand? Are there any issues?

<aaronpk> the only example there that's social is the RSVP example in gmail

<tantek> so yes, there is a thing called schema, created by an oligopoly, used for use-cases *specific* to those in the oligopoly, and *none* of it related to anything social (person to person)

<tantek> I'm going to keep pushing back on this - I see no actual *social* use of schema on the *web* from any of the examples given.

Members asked to look at the document and provide feedback. Use GitHub issue tracker.

<tantek> gmail-specific proprietary extensions does not count as social web, sorry to say.

<wilkie> +1 tantek


<aaronpk> +1 tantek

<tantek> also as noted in the comments on that page: "confusing that the screenshots don't match the examples"

<Shane> I have to head out now, sorry. I agree with the points tantek is making.

<tantek> so basically, I don't believe that "schemaorg-actions-implementations" page at all

<tiborKatelbach> +1 tantek

<wilkie> schema, from that list especially, seems to not have social-web implementations but rather corporate opportunistic uses that will likely be thrown away

<tantek> we can safely ignore schema

<tantek> for purposes of this wg

We should clarifiy the role of WG, IG and CG. Volunteer?

<tiborKatelbach> all this should be shared outside of this group, unless I missed them out there

<tantek> akuckartz_: please rephrase that as a question about the charters

<Loqi> tantek meant to say: akuckartz_: please rephrase that as a question about the charters

<tantek> of WG and IG

<tantek> roles are defined in the charters

<elf-pavlik> Arnaud: community groups - free form, can produce documents but binding only to members of group

Rephrased as suggested by elf-pavlk and others

<elf-pavlik> Arnaud: working groups - in charge of producing actual specifications and have set time to deliver

<elf-pavlik> Arnaud: overlap in WG and IG and we rely on it

<elf-pavlik> overlap in membership

WG is limited in time, Chairs of WG and IG are in contact

I will do the rest tomorrow!


<tantek> ACTION: Arnaud to Add "What is the role of Social WG, IG and CG?" as an FAQ to https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg#FAQ [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/09/16-social-minutes.html#action01]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-4 - Add "what is the role of social wg, ig and cg?" as an faq to https://www.w3.org/wiki/socialwg#faq [on Arnaud Le Hors - due 2014-09-23].

<sandro> http://blog.sgo.to/2014/09/schemaorg-actions-implementations.html

<bret> sorry about the noise

<elf-pavlik> sandro, what about this post?

<tiborKatelbach> tantek I think you should write and share your thoughts about comparing the 2 vocabularies , it could be usefull for newcommers out there

<tantek> tiborKatelbach: there are too many secondary vocabularies to bother with

<tantek> schema is a non-openly developed bloated vocabulary used for very specific big-company vertical uses

<tiborKatelbach> at least to put away the ones from an oligopoly

<elf-pavlik> tantek, i don't disagree but at the same time has some advantages - eg. learning materials https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KB94dIamAQc

<tantek> I'm going to ignore it until someone in this WG actually decides to publish it on their own site (in all seriousness, not just as a test)

<tiborKatelbach> I'm undersstanding this now but was looking for such info a while back and found nothing of the kind

<tantek> tiborKatelbach: what info are you looking for?

<elf-pavlik> tantek, my website ATM uses mostly schema.org + others when needed https://github.com/elf-pavlik/webprofiled/blob/master/test/fixtures/perpetual-tripper/index.json

<tiborKatelbach> before starting working I was looking around

<elf-pavlik> i know, i know i need to ask friendly hosts to fix their service ASAP ;)

<aaronpk> elf-pavlik: your home page is a JSON file?

<rhiaro> Not looked into it deeply, but would publish schema.org for seo purposes.. That's all though

<tiborKatelbach> for critics about schema being oushed by the big players

<Arnaud> trackbot, end meeting

<tantek> elf-pavlik: for testing or ?

<tiborKatelbach> I wanted to know why I shouldn't use it

<tantek> what actual use-case are you solving with it?

<elf-pavlik> i would prefer use other web search engines but for now most people uses big ones, so them understanding data i publish seems to me an advantage

<tiborKatelbach> I build for example a event ticketing system , Json-ld based on schema.org

<tantek> elf-pavlik: those search engines also all support open microformats

<tantek> so there is no need to do the extra work for schema

<Arnaud> tantek: for the record, I don't think it's very polite to give people actions without their consent :)

<tiborKatelbach> what ever I'm building from now on, I'm structuring based on a common vocab

<tantek> Arnaud: I gave you a clerical action - you already answered the question in the minutes :)

<tiborKatelbach> which I thought was schema untill I joined SWG

<elf-pavlik> or stuff like: Getting your events into the Knowledge Graph http://youtu.be/XXw8g-FbemI

<tantek> I figured since you were chair that wasn't too much of an ask :)

<tantek> so a lot of this is "how to get your stuff into Google's proprietary aggregation"

<tantek> none of it is social

<aaronpk> SEO is not a social use case

<elf-pavlik> +1 Arnaud (on not assigning tasks to others!)

<tantek> right, we should document that explicitly as a non-use-case for the WG

<Arnaud> tiborKatelbach: are you officially a member of the WG?

<elf-pavlik> tantek, how about self hosted community hubs aggregating events

<tantek> elf-pavlik: URL?

<elf-pavlik> and why to force people to - you either show up in indie hub OR google/yahoo/bing/yandex results

<tiborKatelbach> only requested for the moment

<tantek> elf-pavlik: not true - as google/yahoo/bing/yandex results support indexing microformats as well

<elf-pavlik> next 3 days we will work on http://directory.open-steps.org/

<Arnaud> you requested an Invited Expert status?

<tiborKatelbach> I made the request but got no responses

<elf-pavlik> we already have prove of concept where people can publish their profiles for examle using http://remotestorage.io instead of filling up google form

<Arnaud> yeah, something went wrong with the Invited Expert application system

<tiborKatelbach> I follow the form

<tiborKatelbach> oh ok

<Arnaud> are you affiliated with a W3C member organization?

<aaronpk> http://calagator.org/ is a community event aggregator, all events are marked up with the h-event microformats2 vocab

<tiborKatelbach> should I try again ?

<tiborKatelbach> yes

<tantek> tiborKatelbach: I see your entry here https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg#Applied_for_Membership

<Arnaud> which organization?

<bret> aaronpk, do the #social loqi logs have a homescreen shortcut?

<elf-pavlik> tantek, can you maybe add links to support of microformats by 'big players' to https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/Vocabulary_Comparison

<tiborKatelbach> NGO Open Atlas, or company O.R.D

<aaronpk> bret: yes http://socialwg.indiewebcamp.com/irc/social/today?bookmark

<tantek> elf-pavlik: see http://microformats.org/wiki/search

<elf-pavlik> tantek, thx!

<Arnaud> wait, open atla isn't a member of w3c, is it?

<tiborKatelbach> we are a small NGO

<elf-pavlik> tiborKatelbach, http://www.w3.org/Consortium/Member/List

<tiborKatelbach> I'm registered personnaly and represent them , I didn't think it was necessary , but I can go ahead if yo like

<Arnaud> the W3C is a member organization

<Arnaud> organizations that want to participate have to become a member

<Arnaud> and pay the associated membership due

<tiborKatelbach> it's non profit and doesnt have much funds for the moment

<Arnaud> as an effort to be as inclusive as possible the w3c also allows limited participation of invited experts

<tiborKatelbach> when it will , we'll suport

<Arnaud> for the latter, you need to apply - which I guess you did

<tiborKatelbach> yes I did

<Arnaud> invited expert status is granted at the discretion of the chairs and w3c staff

<tiborKatelbach> and I'm registered in several groups

<Arnaud> well, you're not registered on this group :)

<tiborKatelbach> does that mean I wont be ?

<tiborKatelbach> I don't undestand ?

<Arnaud> what do you not understand? I'm happy to explain

<deiu> tiborKatelbach: you can only participate in this group if you are either a member of an affiliated organization (with W3C membership) or you have been approved as an invited expert

<tiborKatelbach> as I received no response I don't know the status of the registration , will it be discussed ?

<Arnaud> ok, I understand

<Arnaud> your application is pending

<tiborKatelbach> ok that's fine

<tiborKatelbach> thanks

<Arnaud> as I said, it's a bit messy unfortunately because we have had problems with the invited expert application system

<Arnaud> normally the chairs are notified automatically, we haven't been

<tiborKatelbach> so now you've found my lost request , right ?

<Arnaud> yes :)

<tiborKatelbach> :)

<tiborKatelbach> that's the begining of the good news

<Arnaud> ok, gotta go

<Arnaud> ttyl

<tantek> good night!

<tiborKatelbach> bye everyone !

Summary of Action Items

[NEW] ACTION: Arnaud to Add "What is the role of Social WG, IG and CG?" as an FAQ to https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg#FAQ [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/09/16-social-minutes.html#action01]
[End of minutes]

Minutes formatted by David Booth's scribe.perl version 1.138 (CVS log)
$Date: 2014-09-16 18:30:41 $

Scribe.perl diagnostic output

[Delete this section before finalizing the minutes.]
This is scribe.perl Revision: 1.138  of Date: 2013-04-25 13:59:11  
Check for newer version at http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/

Guessing input format: RRSAgent_Text_Format (score 1.00)

Succeeded: s/charter/charters/
Found Scribe: akuckartz_
Found ScribeNick: akuckartz_
Default Present: elf-pavlik, +972.3.645.aaaa, dromasca, +1.503.342.aabb, Arnaud, +1.559.707.aacc, aaronpk, Sandro, +1.412.370.aadd, +1.303.204.aaee, jasnell, wilkie, dskiba, deiu, jtauber, Shane, barnabywalters, markus, akuckartz_, oshepherd, +26226234aaff, bret, tiborKatelbach
Present: elf-pavlik +972.3.645.aaaa dromasca +1.503.342.aabb Arnaud +1.559.707.aacc aaronpk Sandro +1.412.370.aadd +1.303.204.aaee jasnell wilkie dskiba deiu jtauber Shane barnabywalters markus akuckartz_ oshepherd +26226234aaff bret tiborKatelbach
Agenda: https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/2014-09-16
Found Date: 16 Sep 2014
Guessing minutes URL: http://www.w3.org/2014/09/16-social-minutes.html
People with action items: arnaud

WARNING: Input appears to use implicit continuation lines.
You may need the "-implicitContinuations" option.

[End of scribe.perl diagnostic output]