The last minutes were accepted; actions-10 and 11 are carried over, all other actions were completed. Invited expert issues are now all resolved by the W3C; new members of the group are invited to introduce themselves on the mailing list. All are again encouraged to sign up to be scribes for future meetings.
Plans from PAQ Task Force until Face-to-Face meeting
Simon Miles and Yogesh presented the plans and timetable for the PAQ TF. A number of participants volunteered to contribute to this document.
Plans for Connection Task Force until Face-to-face meeting
Eric presented the plans drafted with Kai for the Connection TF. A timetable still needs to be produced. Group members have volunteered to contribute to the task force.
Plans for Implementation and Test case Task Force until F2F1
Helena and Stephan presented their plan for the task force. The focus of the discussion was on the scope of this TF. Actual plans until F2F1 still need to be formulated. It was agreed that the document had just been released and more time was needed to reflect on it. Plans for F2F1 will be written during the week.
Three proposals were put forward in the agenda. The first one was approved. We began discussions on the second, but didn't have time to reach consensus. The third one was left for next week.
14:51:55 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/06/09-prov-irc
RRSAgent IRC Bot: logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/06/09-prov-irc ←
14:51:57 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
Trackbot IRC Bot: RRSAgent, make logs world ←
14:51:59 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be
Trackbot IRC Bot: Zakim, this will be ←
14:51:59 <Zakim> I don't understand 'this will be', trackbot
Zakim IRC Bot: I don't understand 'this will be', trackbot ←
14:52:00 <trackbot> Meeting: Provenance Working Group Teleconference
14:52:00 <trackbot> Date: 09 June 2011
14:52:25 <pgroth> Zakim, this will be PROV
Paul Groth: Zakim, this will be PROV ←
14:52:25 <Zakim> ok, pgroth; I see SW_(PROV)11:00AM scheduled to start in 8 minutes
Zakim IRC Bot: ok, pgroth; I see SW_(PROV)11:00AM scheduled to start in 8 minutes ←
14:52:48 <pgroth> Agenda: http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2011.06.09
14:53:05 <pgroth> Chair: pgroth
14:53:26 <pgroth> rrsagent, make logs public
Paul Groth: rrsagent, make logs public ←
14:54:29 <Zakim> SW_(PROV)11:00AM has now started
Zakim IRC Bot: SW_(PROV)11:00AM has now started ←
14:54:36 <Zakim> +??P3
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P3 ←
14:54:52 <Luc> zakim, ??P3 is me
Luc Moreau: zakim, ??P3 is me ←
14:54:52 <Zakim> +Luc; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +Luc; got it ←
14:55:12 <Zakim> -Luc
Zakim IRC Bot: -Luc ←
14:55:14 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
Zakim IRC Bot: +[IPcaller] ←
14:55:27 <pgroth> Zakim, +[IPcaller] is me
Paul Groth: Zakim, +[IPcaller] is me ←
14:55:27 <Zakim> sorry, pgroth, I do not recognize a party named '+[IPcaller]'
Zakim IRC Bot: sorry, pgroth, I do not recognize a party named '+[IPcaller]' ←
14:55:37 <pgroth> Zakim, who is on the phone?
Paul Groth: Zakim, who is on the phone? ←
14:55:37 <Zakim> On the phone I see [IPcaller]
Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see [IPcaller] ←
14:55:54 <pgroth> zakim, [IPcaller] is me
Paul Groth: zakim, [IPcaller] is me ←
14:55:54 <Zakim> +pgroth; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +pgroth; got it ←
14:56:11 <Zakim> +??P3
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P3 ←
14:56:52 <Zakim> +??P5
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P5 ←
14:57:01 <pgroth> would someone be willing to scribe?
Paul Groth: would someone be willing to scribe? ←
14:57:32 <Zakim> -??P5
Zakim IRC Bot: -??P5 ←
14:57:46 <Zakim> +??P5
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P5 ←
14:57:52 <jorn> Zakim, ??p5 is me
Jörn Hees: Zakim, ??p5 is me ←
14:57:52 <Zakim> +jorn; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +jorn; got it ←
14:58:59 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
Zakim IRC Bot: +[IPcaller] ←
14:59:00 <Zakim> + +1.315.723.aaaa
Zakim IRC Bot: + +1.315.723.aaaa ←
14:59:05 <tlebo> Zakim, aaaa is me
Timothy Lebo: Zakim, aaaa is me ←
14:59:05 <Zakim> +tlebo; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +tlebo; got it ←
14:59:16 <Zakim> +??P20
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P20 ←
14:59:25 <Luc> zakim, who is on the phone?
Luc Moreau: zakim, who is on the phone? ←
14:59:25 <Zakim> On the phone I see pgroth, ??P3, jorn, [IPcaller], tlebo, ??P20
Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see pgroth, ??P3, jorn, [IPcaller], tlebo, ??P20 ←
14:59:50 <Zakim> + +1.509.554.aabb
Zakim IRC Bot: + +1.509.554.aabb ←
14:59:51 <Luc> zakim, ??P3 is me
Luc Moreau: zakim, ??P3 is me ←
14:59:52 <Zakim> +Luc; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +Luc; got it ←
15:00:02 <Zakim> +??P31
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P31 ←
15:00:21 <Zakim> +??P36
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P36 ←
15:00:24 <dgarijo> Zakim, ??P31 is me
Daniel Garijo: Zakim, ??P31 is me ←
15:00:24 <Zakim> +dgarijo; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +dgarijo; got it ←
15:00:42 <Zakim> +??P38
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P38 ←
15:01:00 <GK_> zakim, ??p38 is me
Graham Klyne: zakim, ??p38 is me ←
15:01:00 <Zakim> +GK_; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +GK_; got it ←
15:01:19 <Zakim> + +49.302.093.aacc
Zakim IRC Bot: + +49.302.093.aacc ←
15:01:38 <olaf> zakim, aacc is me
Olaf Hartig: zakim, aacc is me ←
15:01:38 <Zakim> +olaf; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +olaf; got it ←
15:01:49 <Zakim> +??P21
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P21 ←
15:01:56 <smiles> zakim, ??P21 is me
Simon Miles: zakim, ??P21 is me ←
15:01:56 <Zakim> +smiles; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +smiles; got it ←
15:02:01 <GK_> (I need to leave promptly at the hour)
Graham Klyne: (I need to leave promptly at the hour) ←
15:02:08 <Zakim> + +1.832.386.aadd
Zakim IRC Bot: + +1.832.386.aadd ←
15:02:17 <Zakim> +??P2
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P2 ←
15:02:30 <Zakim> +??P6
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P6 ←
15:02:33 <Zakim> -??P2
Zakim IRC Bot: -??P2 ←
15:02:59 <Zakim> +??P1
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P1 ←
15:03:15 <Zakim> +??P7
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P7 ←
15:03:16 <jorn> Zakim, who is on the phone?
Jörn Hees: Zakim, who is on the phone? ←
15:03:17 <Zakim> On the phone I see pgroth, Luc, jorn, [IPcaller], tlebo, ??P20, +1.509.554.aabb, dgarijo, ??P36, GK_, olaf, smiles, +1.832.386.aadd, ??P6, ??P1, ??P7
Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see pgroth, Luc, jorn, [IPcaller], tlebo, ??P20, +1.509.554.aabb, dgarijo, ??P36, GK_, olaf, smiles, +1.832.386.aadd, ??P6, ??P1, ??P7 ←
15:03:23 <jcheney> zakim, ??P7 is me
James Cheney: zakim, ??P7 is me ←
15:03:23 <Zakim> +jcheney; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +jcheney; got it ←
15:03:31 <tlebo> :-)
Timothy Lebo: :-) ←
15:03:34 <tlebo> scribe: tlebo
(Scribe set to Timothy Lebo)
15:03:40 <Zakim> + +1.518.633.aaee
Zakim IRC Bot: + +1.518.633.aaee ←
15:03:40 <jcheney> AFK for a minute
James Cheney: AFK for a minute ←
15:03:51 <pgroth> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/meeting/2011-06-02
Paul Groth: http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/meeting/2011-06-02 ←
<luc>Topic: Admin
Summary: The last minutes were accepted; actions-10 and 11 are carried over, all other actions were completed. Invited expert issues are now all resolved by the W3C; new members of the group are invited to introduce themselves on the mailing list. All are again encouraged to sign up to be scribes for future meetings.
<luc>Summary: The last minutes were accepted; actions-10 and 11 are carried over, all other actions were completed. Invited expert issues are now all resolved by the W3C; new members of the group are invited to introduce themselves on the mailing list. All are again encouraged to sign up to be scribes for future meetings.
15:03:59 <tlebo> subtopic: Minutes from last week
15:04:02 <dgarijo> +1
Daniel Garijo: +1 ←
15:04:03 <smiles> +1
Simon Miles: +1 ←
15:04:06 <estephan> +1
Eric Stephan: +1 ←
15:04:06 <tlebo> proposed: accept minutes
PROPOSED: accept minutes ←
15:04:09 <frew> +1
James Frew: +1 ←
15:04:11 <olaf> +1
Olaf Hartig: +1 ←
15:04:11 <GK_> +1
Graham Klyne: +1 ←
15:04:12 <simoninireland> +1
Simon Dobson: +1 ←
15:04:14 <zednik> +1
Stephan Zednik: +1 ←
15:04:22 <jorn> +1
15:04:24 <StephenCresswell> +1
Stephen Cresswell: +1 ←
15:04:24 <tlebo> +1
+1 ←
15:04:44 <Zakim> + +329331aaff
Zakim IRC Bot: + +329331aaff ←
15:04:45 <tlebo> accepted: minutes
RESOLVED: minutes ←
15:04:53 <tlebo> subtopic: Coordinators of task forces
15:05:06 <Zakim> + +1.216.368.aagg
Zakim IRC Bot: + +1.216.368.aagg ←
15:05:14 <tlebo> pgroth: in addition to coordinators announced last week, Helene Deus and Stephan Zednik will coordinate the Implementation and Test Cases TF till F2F1
Paul Groth: in addition to coordinators announced last week, Helene Deus and Stephan Zednik will coordinate the Implementation and Test Cases TF till F2F1 ←
15:05:17 <Zakim> +??P11
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P11 ←
15:05:34 <tlebo> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/ProvenanceTaskForces
http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/ProvenanceTaskForces ←
15:06:00 <Zakim> +[IPcaller.a]
Zakim IRC Bot: +[IPcaller.a] ←
15:06:02 <SamCoppens> zakim, +329331aaff is me
Sam Coppens: zakim, +329331aaff is me ←
15:06:02 <Zakim> +SamCoppens; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +SamCoppens; got it ←
<luc>subtopic: Record vote that took place during the week
<luc>pgroth: we take note of a vote made during the week
Paul Groth: we take note of a vote made during the week [ Scribe Assist by Luc Moreau ] ←
15:06:04 <pgroth> In a first instance, to define the necessary concepts that allow us to express the provenance of an invariant view or perspective on a thing
Paul Groth: In a first instance, to define the necessary concepts that allow us to express the provenance of an invariant view or perspective on a thing ←
15:06:20 <pgroth> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-prov-wg/2011Jun/0096.html
Paul Groth: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-prov-wg/2011Jun/0096.html ←
15:06:39 <tlebo> pgroth: is there objections to the proposal?
Paul Groth: is there objections to the proposal? ←
15:06:49 <tlebo> oops
oops ←
15:07:05 <tlebo> accepted: to define the necessary concepts that allow us to express the provenance of an invariant view or perspective on a thing
RESOLVED: to define the necessary concepts that allow us to express the provenance of an invariant view or perspective on a thing ←
15:07:15 <tlebo> subtopic: open actions
15:07:12 <pgroth> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/track/actions/open
Paul Groth: http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/track/actions/open ←
15:07:43 <tlebo> there were actions for Resource
there were actions for Resource ←
15:07:51 <dgarijo> @tlebo: definition for resource or agreement to use the IVPTs?
Daniel Garijo: @tlebo: definition for resource or agreement to use the IVPTs? ←
15:07:54 <tlebo> there were actions for the Task Forces - on way to being done.
there were actions for the Task Forces - on way to being done. ←
15:07:55 <Zakim> + +1.518.276.aahh
Zakim IRC Bot: + +1.518.276.aahh ←
15:08:09 <tlebo> subtopic: Invited experts have been invited.
15:08:22 <Zakim> + +1.540.449.aaii
Zakim IRC Bot: + +1.540.449.aaii ←
15:08:36 <Zakim> +??P19
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P19 ←
15:08:46 <Yogesh> zakim, + +1.540.449.aaii is Yogesh
Yogesh Simmhan: zakim, + +1.540.449.aaii is Yogesh ←
15:08:46 <Zakim> I don't understand '+ +1.540.449.aaii is Yogesh', Yogesh
Zakim IRC Bot: I don't understand '+ +1.540.449.aaii is Yogesh', Yogesh ←
15:08:48 <dgarijo> i get a lot of noise :(
Daniel Garijo: i get a lot of noise :( ←
15:08:49 <tlebo> invited expert #1. - (broken voice connection)
invited expert #1. - (broken voice connection) ←
15:08:59 <Luc> generally, people who have joined recently may want to send an introduction to the mailing list
Luc Moreau: generally, people who have joined recently may want to send an introduction to the mailing list ←
15:09:02 <paolo_> zakim, ??P19 is me
Paolo Missier: zakim, ??P19 is me ←
15:09:02 <Zakim> +paolo_; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +paolo_; got it ←
15:09:14 <jorn> Zakim, who is noisy?
Jörn Hees: Zakim, who is noisy? ←
15:09:25 <Zakim> jorn, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: pgroth (9%), ??P36 (13%)
Zakim IRC Bot: jorn, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: pgroth (9%), ??P36 (13%) ←
15:09:29 <Yogesh> zakim, +1.540.449 is Yogesh
Yogesh Simmhan: zakim, +1.540.449 is Yogesh ←
15:09:29 <Zakim> +Yogesh; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +Yogesh; got it ←
15:09:36 <pgroth> Zakim, mute ??P36
Paul Groth: Zakim, mute ??P36 ←
15:09:36 <Zakim> ??P36 should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: ??P36 should now be muted ←
15:10:02 <Zakim> +??P24
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P24 ←
15:10:07 <tlebo> any other intros on phone? please introduce yourselves on the mailing list.
any other intros on phone? please introduce yourselves on the mailing list. ←
15:10:19 <khalidbelhajjame> zakim, ??P24 is really me
Khalid Belhajjame: zakim, ??P24 is really me ←
15:10:19 <Zakim> +khalidbelhajjame; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +khalidbelhajjame; got it ←
15:10:22 <tlebo> subtopic: Scribes
15:10:26 <tlebo> please sign up.
please sign up. ←
15:10:29 <pgroth> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/Scribes
Paul Groth: http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/Scribes ←
15:11:02 <tlebo> topic: Plans from PAQ Task Force until Face-to-Face meeting
Summary: Simon Miles and Yogesh presented the plans and timetable for the PAQ TF. A number of participants volunteered to contribute to this document.
<luc>Summary: Simon Miles and Yogesh presented the plans and timetable for the PAQ TF. A number of participants volunteered to contribute to this document.
15:11:09 <Zakim> -jorn
Zakim IRC Bot: -jorn ←
15:11:18 <pgroth> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-prov-wg/2011Jun/0068.html
Paul Groth: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-prov-wg/2011Jun/0068.html ←
15:11:24 <Zakim> +??P5
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P5 ←
15:11:30 <jorn> Zakim, ??p5 is me
Jörn Hees: Zakim, ??p5 is me ←
15:11:30 <Zakim> +jorn; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +jorn; got it ←
15:11:56 <dgarijo> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/F2F1_Access_and_Query_Proposal
Daniel Garijo: http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/F2F1_Access_and_Query_Proposal ←
15:12:07 <tlebo> smiles: they proposed on mailing list, no objections yet. 2 questions - 1) identity and 2) location; how to obtain and embedding in HTML.
Simon Miles: they proposed on mailing list, no objections yet. 2 questions - 1) identity and 2) location; how to obtain and embedding in HTML. ←
15:12:30 <tlebo> smiles: inspired by incubator proposal in report.
Simon Miles: inspired by incubator proposal in report. ←
15:12:39 <Zakim> -??P6
Zakim IRC Bot: -??P6 ←
15:12:56 <tlebo> smiles: want to start populating templates. feedback on templates welcome, too.
Simon Miles: want to start populating templates. feedback on templates welcome, too. ←
15:13:43 <tlebo> smiles: want to discover issues in next week so we have them to discuss at F2F.
Simon Miles: want to discover issues in next week so we have them to discuss at F2F. ←
15:13:48 <Zakim> +??P6
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P6 ←
15:13:49 <pgroth> q?
Paul Groth: q? ←
15:14:32 <paolo_> q+
Paolo Missier: q+ ←
15:14:57 <smiles> http://www.w3.org/TR/2009/REC-powder-dr-20090901/#httplink
Simon Miles: http://www.w3.org/TR/2009/REC-powder-dr-20090901/#httplink ←
15:15:04 <satya> http://www.w3.org/2007/powder/
Satya Sahoo: http://www.w3.org/2007/powder/ ←
15:15:10 <tlebo> paolo_: what is powder? Can we have reference?
Paolo Missier: what is powder? Can we have reference? ←
15:15:44 <tlebo> paolo_: make sure powder link is obvious in the writeup.
Paolo Missier: make sure powder link is obvious in the writeup. ←
15:16:06 <tlebo> pgroth: timetable?
Paul Groth: timetable? ←
15:16:45 <tlebo> smiles: today - finish scope asap. by 23rd June finish questions. by 30tg draft for F2F.
Simon Miles: today - finish scope asap. by 23rd June finish questions. by 30tg draft for F2F. ←
15:17:31 <olaf> I will
Olaf Hartig: I will ←
15:17:43 <paolo_> q?
Paolo Missier: q? ←
15:17:43 <GK_> I intend to continue to help with proposals
Graham Klyne: I intend to continue to help with proposals ←
15:17:46 <paolo_> ack
Paolo Missier: ack ←
15:17:49 <tlebo> proposed: people self-select to provide proposals.
PROPOSED: people self-select to provide proposals. ←
15:17:53 <Yogesh> q+
Yogesh Simmhan: q+ ←
15:17:56 <satya> volunteer
Satya Sahoo: volunteer ←
15:17:56 <Luc> I will point to the web protocol defined by sparql group as a way to access provenance
Luc Moreau: I will point to the web protocol defined by sparql group as a way to access provenance ←
15:18:00 <paolo_> q?
Paolo Missier: q? ←
15:18:03 <paolo_> q-
Paolo Missier: q- ←
15:18:04 <pgroth> ack paolo_
Paul Groth: ack paolo_ ←
15:18:07 <pgroth> ack Yogesh
Paul Groth: ack Yogesh ←
15:18:29 <tlebo> []: please separate proposals into different sections based on who proposed them.
[]: please separate proposals into different sections based on who proposed them. ←
15:18:33 <Yogesh> q-
Yogesh Simmhan: q- ←
15:18:48 <SamCoppens> volunteer
Sam Coppens: volunteer ←
15:19:15 <olaf> q+
Olaf Hartig: q+ ←
15:19:23 <pgroth> ack olaf
Paul Groth: ack olaf ←
15:19:49 <Luc> graham, why do you need a reference to the powder profile here? isn't it that <link/> is part of html and not POWDER?
Luc Moreau: graham, why do you need a reference to the powder profile here? isn't it that <link/> is part of html and not POWDER? ←
15:20:11 <tlebo> olaf: proposals first phase, THEN issues raised against proposal. what do issues mean? issues of proposals themselves or that are found when considering them.
Olaf Hartig: proposals first phase, THEN issues raised against proposal. what do issues mean? issues of proposals themselves or that are found when considering them. ←
15:20:21 <GK_> q+
Graham Klyne: q+ ←
15:20:23 <tlebo> smiles: the former is intended.
Simon Miles: the former is intended. ←
15:20:24 <olaf> q-
Olaf Hartig: q- ←
15:20:52 <pgroth> ack GK_
Paul Groth: ack GK_ ←
15:20:53 <GK_> q-
Graham Klyne: q- ←
15:21:03 <tlebo> smiles: we should distinguish between out of scope for F2F but sill within scope of prov-wg.
Simon Miles: we should distinguish between out of scope for F2F but sill within scope of prov-wg. ←
15:22:32 <tlebo> GK_: re POWDER. want to make distinction from access vs. determinign the URIs for access. not sure how to make that clear in current writeup sections.
Graham Klyne: re POWDER. want to make distinction from access vs. determinign the URIs for access. not sure how to make that clear in current writeup sections. ←
15:22:36 <Zakim> +[LC]
Zakim IRC Bot: +[LC] ←
15:22:52 <edsu> zakim, [LC] is edsu
Ed Summers: zakim, [LC] is edsu ←
15:22:52 <Zakim> +edsu; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +edsu; got it ←
15:23:27 <tlebo> provenance of document vs. its identity
provenance of document vs. its identity ←
15:23:54 <tlebo> topic: Plans for Connection Task Force until Face-to-face meeting
Summary: Eric presented the plans drafted with Kai for the Connection TF. A timetable still needs to be produced. Group members have volunteered to contribute to the task force.
<luc>Summary: Eric presented the plans drafted with Kai for the Connection TF. A timetable still needs to be produced. Group members have volunteered to contribute to the task force.
15:24:05 <pgroth> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/F2F1_Connection_Proposal
Paul Groth: http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/F2F1_Connection_Proposal ←
15:25:04 <Luc> yogesh and simon, could you add the timeline to the wiki page?
Luc Moreau: yogesh and simon, could you add the timeline to the wiki page? ←
15:25:35 <tlebo> ericstephan: for proposal, not timeline yet. Have initial proposed scope. Basing from incubator group; existing vocabularies. Domain-specific conventions need to be considered. 3) complementary concepts relating to provenance.
Eric Stephan: for proposal, not timeline yet. Have initial proposed scope. Basing from incubator group; existing vocabularies. Domain-specific conventions need to be considered. 3) complementary concepts relating to provenance. ←
15:25:53 <tlebo> ericstephan: e.g. visual analytics group interested in provenance.
Eric Stephan: e.g. visual analytics group interested in provenance. ←
15:26:25 <tlebo> ericstephan: considering scope; what to exclude/include.
Eric Stephan: considering scope; what to exclude/include. ←
15:26:42 <GK_> q+ to ask if there is a good example of a domain specific convention
Graham Klyne: q+ to ask if there is a good example of a domain specific convention ←
15:26:46 <Zakim> -jorn
Zakim IRC Bot: -jorn ←
15:26:49 <tlebo> ericstephan: Kai has example template to use when gathering connections.
Eric Stephan: Kai has example template to use when gathering connections. ←
15:27:14 <dgarijo> i think he refers to Kai
Daniel Garijo: i think he refers to Kai ←
15:27:15 <satya> @Eric - please clarify "complementary concepts relating to provenance"
Satya Sahoo: @Eric - please clarify "complementary concepts relating to provenance" ←
15:27:31 <Zakim> +??P5
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P5 ←
15:27:40 <jorn> zakim, ??p5 is me
Jörn Hees: zakim, ??p5 is me ←
15:27:40 <Zakim> +jorn; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +jorn; got it ←
15:28:13 <satya> thanks!
Satya Sahoo: thanks! ←
15:28:19 <tlebo> ericstephan: w.r.t. data quality, uncertainty quantification. a lot of work in "knowledge provenance layer". -- what means by "complementary concepts"
Eric Stephan: w.r.t. data quality, uncertainty quantification. a lot of work in "knowledge provenance layer". -- what means by "complementary concepts" ←
15:28:23 <pgroth> ack GK_
Paul Groth: ack GK_ ←
15:28:23 <Zakim> GK_, you wanted to ask if there is a good example of a domain specific convention
Zakim IRC Bot: GK_, you wanted to ask if there is a good example of a domain specific convention ←
15:28:34 <tlebo> GK_: examples for domain-specific conventions.
Graham Klyne: examples for domain-specific conventions. ←
15:29:09 <Yogesh> @Luc, F2F1 Access and Query Proposal plan has been posted to wiki
Yogesh Simmhan: @Luc, F2F1 Access and Query Proposal plan has been posted to wiki ←
15:29:29 <tlebo> ericstephan: currently trying to integrate disparate models with earth simulation, agriculture, power grid models. They want to capture and identify uncertainties from those results.
Eric Stephan: currently trying to integrate disparate models with earth simulation, agriculture, power grid models. They want to capture and identify uncertainties from those results. ←
15:29:42 <Luc> @Yogesh, thanks!
Luc Moreau: @Yogesh, thanks! ←
15:29:51 <Luc> q+
Luc Moreau: q+ ←
15:29:51 <tlebo> ericstephan: this will need provenance to address the uncertainties.
Eric Stephan: this will need provenance to address the uncertainties. ←
15:30:07 <pgroth> ack Luc
Paul Groth: ack Luc ←
15:30:20 <pgroth> luc?
Paul Groth: luc? ←
15:30:32 <tlebo> luc: broken phone.
Luc Moreau: broken phone. ←
15:30:32 <Luc> it looks like you can't hear me, i'll type my comments
Luc Moreau: it looks like you can't hear me, i'll type my comments ←
15:31:03 <tlebo> pgroth: please add timeline soon for connection.
Paul Groth: please add timeline soon for connection. ←
15:31:07 <Luc> the scenario that Eric described looks more like an application, doesn't this belong to the last task force?
Luc Moreau: the scenario that Eric described looks more like an application, doesn't this belong to the last task force? ←
15:31:16 <ericstephan> okay
Eric Stephan: okay ←
15:31:29 <tlebo> pgroth: people should help with connection task force.
Paul Groth: people should help with connection task force. ←
15:31:37 <simoninireland> I'd be interested
Simon Dobson: I'd be interested ←
15:31:44 <Luc> For this task force, will we investigate opportunities for connecting with DC, Identity, Life Science, ....
Luc Moreau: For this task force, will we investigate opportunities for connecting with DC, Identity, Life Science, .... ←
15:31:45 <simoninireland> Sorry, keyboard malfunction :-)
Simon Dobson: Sorry, keyboard malfunction :-) ←
15:31:47 <ericstephan> Several people volunteered yesterday in email
Eric Stephan: Several people volunteered yesterday in email ←
15:31:50 <Lena> i am interested
Helena Deus: i am interested ←
15:32:02 <tlebo> pgroth: this is about connecting to existing provenance standards and domains and their use cases
Paul Groth: this is about connecting to existing provenance standards and domains and their use cases ←
15:32:04 <ericstephan> I believe Carl Reed?
Eric Stephan: I believe Carl Reed? ←
15:32:13 <Christine> Apologies. It is difficult for me to hear. But very happy to help progress this work.
Christine Runnegar: Apologies. It is difficult for me to hear. But very happy to help progress this work. ←
15:32:15 <edsu> i would be willing to try to help outreach w/ digital preservation community
Ed Summers: i would be willing to try to help outreach w/ digital preservation community ←
15:32:20 <ericstephan> Thank you
Eric Stephan: Thank you ←
15:32:23 <GK_> @luc @ericstephan I'm *guessing* that there's a reference here to provenence that's implicit in existing applications, and if there are conventions we can connect to. But that's just my guess.
Graham Klyne: @luc @ericstephan I'm *guessing* that there's a reference here to provenence that's implicit in existing applications, and if there are conventions we can connect to. But that's just my guess. ←
15:32:26 <frew> very interested in connections to climate/earth science but will be offline for next ~3 weeks so can't help w/ F2F1
James Frew: very interested in connections to climate/earth science but will be offline for next ~3 weeks so can't help w/ F2F1 ←
15:32:35 <tlebo> topic: Plans for Implementation and Test case Task Force until F2F1
Summary: Helena and Stephan presented their plan for the task force. The focus of the discussion was on the scope of this TF. Actual plans until F2F1 still need to be formulated. It was agreed that the document had just been released and more time was needed to reflect on it. Plans for F2F1 will be written during the week.
<luc>Summary: Helena and Stephan presented their plan for the task force. The focus of the discussion was on the scope of this TF. Actual plans until F2F1 still need to be formulated. It was agreed that the document had just been released and more time was needed to reflect on it. Plans for F2F1 will be written during the week.
15:32:44 <Luc> @ericstephan, will you also write the timetable on the wiki?
Luc Moreau: @ericstephan, will you also write the timetable on the wiki? ←
15:32:47 <zednik> wiki page: http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/F2F1_Unit_Test_Proposal
Stephan Zednik: wiki page: http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/F2F1_Unit_Test_Proposal ←
15:33:16 <tlebo> lena: identified scope on wiki. listing series of deliverables.
Helena Deus: identified scope on wiki. listing series of deliverables. ←
15:33:30 <ericstephan> @Luc yes I will meet with Kai on the timeline and get this out asap
Eric Stephan: @Luc yes I will meet with Kai on the timeline and get this out asap ←
15:33:44 <tlebo> lena: engaging with stakeholders and connecting with other task forces. contacting those with provenance problems, so they can give overview and how it would be used.
Helena Deus: engaging with stakeholders and connecting with other task forces. contacting those with provenance problems, so they can give overview and how it would be used. ←
15:33:59 <Luc> q+
Luc Moreau: q+ ←
15:34:28 <tlebo> GK_: wiki page indicates stakeholder-oriented. lower level test cases to help clarify details? e.g. RDF working group had small test cases.
Graham Klyne: wiki page indicates stakeholder-oriented. lower level test cases to help clarify details? e.g. RDF working group had small test cases. ←
15:34:44 <satya> @Lena/Stephan: would like to point to the use cases created by the Provenance XG, for example: http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/prov/wiki/Analysis_of_Disease_Outbreak_Scenario
Satya Sahoo: @Lena/Stephan: would like to point to the use cases created by the Provenance XG, for example: http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/prov/wiki/Analysis_of_Disease_Outbreak_Scenario ←
15:34:47 <dgarijo> +q
Daniel Garijo: +q ←
15:34:53 <tlebo> lena: develop use cases from interviewing stakeholders.
Helena Deus: develop use cases from interviewing stakeholders. ←
15:36:02 <tlebo> luc: to Helena, going to talk to stakeholders outside of working group or inside?
Luc Moreau: to Helena, going to talk to stakeholders outside of working group or inside? ←
15:36:32 <tlebo> lena: Ideally outside. e.g. Stephan's Australia and Helena's. Invite them to present to us.
Helena Deus: Ideally outside. e.g. Stephan's Australia and Helena's. Invite them to present to us. ←
15:36:58 <tlebo> luc: remember those in working group. Would help to focus with them.
Luc Moreau: remember those in working group. Would help to focus with them. ←
15:37:22 <tlebo> luc: members of group interested in implementing standards.
Luc Moreau: members of group interested in implementing standards. ←
15:37:43 <jun> q+
15:37:46 <tlebo> lena: by F2F, clarifying use cases and detailing them.
Helena Deus: by F2F, clarifying use cases and detailing them. ←
15:37:47 <smiles> q+
Simon Miles: q+ ←
15:37:55 <Luc> q-
Luc Moreau: q- ←
15:37:59 <Zakim> -jorn
Zakim IRC Bot: -jorn ←
15:38:03 <dgarijo> http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/prov/wiki/Use_Cases#Original_Use_Cases_Proposed
Daniel Garijo: http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/prov/wiki/Use_Cases#Original_Use_Cases_Proposed ←
15:38:13 <Zakim> +??P2
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P2 ←
15:38:16 <tlebo> dgarijo: in incubator group, 50 use cases. some of those can be reused.
Daniel Garijo: in incubator group, 50 use cases. some of those can be reused. ←
15:38:22 <jorn> zakim, ??p2 is me
Jörn Hees: zakim, ??p2 is me ←
15:38:22 <Zakim> +jorn; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +jorn; got it ←
15:38:29 <pgroth> q?
Paul Groth: q? ←
15:38:31 <tlebo> lena: started with those
Helena Deus: started with those ←
15:38:35 <pgroth> ack dgarijo
Paul Groth: ack dgarijo ←
15:38:46 <tlebo> dgarijo: please add link to those from the wiki page
Daniel Garijo: please add link to those from the wiki page ←
15:38:53 <pgroth> ack jun
Paul Groth: ack jun ←
15:39:08 <tlebo> action: use case wiki page point to the incubator use cases
ACTION: use case wiki page point to the incubator use cases ←
15:39:08 <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - use
Trackbot IRC Bot: Sorry, couldn't find user - use ←
15:39:57 <satya> +1 for Jun's point
Satya Sahoo: +1 for Jun's point ←
15:40:07 <dgarijo> yep, I agree too.
Daniel Garijo: yep, I agree too. ←
15:40:26 <tlebo> jun: worried about implementation vs. use cases - out of scope? 2) what to do with requirements? expand model based on use cases?
Jun Zhao: worried about implementation vs. use cases - out of scope? 2) what to do with requirements? expand model based on use cases? ←
15:41:02 <Luc> q+
Luc Moreau: q+ ←
15:41:03 <tlebo> lena: idea is to help identify the requirements for the use cases and make sure it has a target audience.
Helena Deus: idea is to help identify the requirements for the use cases and make sure it has a target audience. ←
15:41:16 <pgroth> ack smiles
Paul Groth: ack smiles ←
15:41:21 <GK_> q+ to say but we are not (as a WG) creating a s/w implementation
Graham Klyne: q+ to say but we are not (as a WG) creating a s/w implementation ←
15:41:23 <tlebo> jun: suggest to restate the wiki page to reflect this.
Jun Zhao: suggest to restate the wiki page to reflect this. ←
15:41:56 <tlebo> smiles: objectives for F2F preparations?
Simon Miles: objectives for F2F preparations? ←
15:42:03 <dgarijo> @GK_ but we should at least provide some examples/guidelines if we want people to use the PIL
Daniel Garijo: @GK_ but we should at least provide some examples/guidelines if we want people to use the PIL ←
15:42:24 <tlebo> lena: identification of stakeholders both at F2F and outside.
Helena Deus: identification of stakeholders both at F2F and outside. ←
15:42:36 <GK_> @dgariji yes, no prob there, but wary of scope
Graham Klyne: @dgariji yes, no prob there, but wary of scope ←
15:42:45 <GK_> s/ware/wary/
Graham Klyne: s/ware/wary/ (warning: replacement failed) ←
15:42:54 <tlebo> zednik: still establishing scope for task force.
Stephan Zednik: still establishing scope for task force. ←
15:42:59 <pgroth> q?
Paul Groth: q? ←
15:43:07 <pgroth> ack Luc
Paul Groth: ack Luc ←
15:43:42 <tlebo> luc: concerned for amount of work. only 4 weeks to F2F.
Luc Moreau: concerned for amount of work. only 4 weeks to F2F. ←
15:43:48 <Zakim> + +1.937.708.aajj
Zakim IRC Bot: + +1.937.708.aajj ←
15:43:57 <tlebo> zednik: we are not doing work, but establishing scope of what TF will be doing.
Stephan Zednik: we are not doing work, but establishing scope of what TF will be doing. ←
15:44:54 <tlebo> lena: scope of TF
Helena Deus: scope of TF ←
15:45:03 <tlebo> luc: we need 2 independent implementations that interoperate.
Luc Moreau: we need 2 independent implementations that interoperate. ←
15:45:17 <tlebo> luc: we need to define what it means to interoperate.
Luc Moreau: we need to define what it means to interoperate. ←
15:45:53 <tlebo> luc: we need to find someone with a provenance problem willing to implement the standards.
Luc Moreau: we need to find someone with a provenance problem willing to implement the standards. ←
15:46:37 <tlebo> lena: TF will review the charter.
Helena Deus: TF will review the charter. ←
15:46:37 <SamCoppens> I am volunteer for reference impl
Sam Coppens: I am volunteer for reference impl ←
15:46:40 <GK_> q?
Graham Klyne: q? ←
15:47:51 <tlebo> lena: identification of stakeholders is primary objective for F2F.
Helena Deus: identification of stakeholders is primary objective for F2F. ←
15:48:18 <tlebo> luc: what kind of information to do want to obtain from stakeholders.
Luc Moreau: what kind of information to do want to obtain from stakeholders. ←
15:48:37 <Zakim> -??P1
Zakim IRC Bot: -??P1 ←
15:48:58 <tlebo> pgroth: table to mailing list.
Paul Groth: table to mailing list. ←
15:49:10 <Luc> +1
Luc Moreau: +1 ←
15:49:48 <dgarijo> I think it would be nice to try to model at least the news example with the current concepts.
Daniel Garijo: I think it would be nice to try to model at least the news example with the current concepts. ←
15:50:38 <tlebo> GK_: regarding wg's role in implementations and applications. That's not what's happening.
Graham Klyne: regarding wg's role in implementations and applications. That's not what's happening. ←
15:51:04 <tlebo> zednik: TF to coordinate implementation, but who would be DOING it?
Stephan Zednik: TF to coordinate implementation, but who would be DOING it? ←
15:51:09 <paolo_> @GK I think this is clear enough from the charter?
Paolo Missier: @GK I think this is clear enough from the charter? ←
15:51:19 <tlebo> pgroth: we find groups that are willing to adopt our standard - we don't do it ourselves.
Paul Groth: we find groups that are willing to adopt our standard - we don't do it ourselves. ←
15:51:40 <tlebo> zednik: we should provide documentation that allows another group to implement the recommendation.
Stephan Zednik: we should provide documentation that allows another group to implement the recommendation. ←
15:51:42 <dgarijo> +1 to the portotypes.
Daniel Garijo: +1 to the portotypes. ←
15:51:51 <GK_> @paolo, indeed. http://www.w3.org/2011/01/prov-wg-charter makes no reference to ref implementation.
Graham Klyne: @paolo, indeed. http://www.w3.org/2011/01/prov-wg-charter makes no reference to ref implementation. ←
15:52:01 <tlebo> pgroth: more than one organization develops our recommendations.
Paul Groth: more than one organization develops our recommendations. ←
15:52:10 <estephan> it would seem like there is a relationship between the implementation and connection task force that we should explore at the f2f
Eric Stephan: it would seem like there is a relationship between the implementation and connection task force that we should explore at the f2f ←
15:52:11 <paolo_> q+
Paolo Missier: q+ ←
15:52:19 <GK_> q-
Graham Klyne: q- ←
15:52:22 <pgroth> ack GK_
Paul Groth: ack GK_ ←
15:52:25 <pgroth> ack paolo_
Paul Groth: ack paolo_ ←
15:52:37 <satya> @GK - for the proposal of the WG to be a W3C recommendation, we need couple of example/prototype implementations
Satya Sahoo: @GK - for the proposal of the WG to be a W3C recommendation, we need couple of example/prototype implementations ←
15:53:03 <tlebo> paolo_: for modeling language vs. tooling. Implementation is not in scope, but tools need to support the new model.
Paolo Missier: for modeling language vs. tooling. Implementation is not in scope, but tools need to support the new model. ←
15:53:17 <GK_> @satya - sure we do, but the *implementation* itself isn't from the WG. Convincing toolmakers is.
Graham Klyne: @satya - sure we do, but the *implementation* itself isn't from the WG. Convincing toolmakers is. ←
15:53:31 <paolo_> q-
Paolo Missier: q- ←
15:53:36 <Zakim> -jorn
Zakim IRC Bot: -jorn ←
15:53:43 <GK_> The point is to prove that NON-WG-MEMBERS can implement it.
Graham Klyne: The point is to prove that NON-WG-MEMBERS can implement it. ←
15:53:49 <tlebo> pgroth: scope of wg is not to create implementation, but to convince others to adopt it.
Paul Groth: scope of wg is not to create implementation, but to convince others to adopt it. ←
15:53:57 <Zakim> +??P1
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P1 ←
15:54:01 <jorn> zakim, ??p1 is me
Jörn Hees: zakim, ??p1 is me ←
15:54:01 <Zakim> +jorn; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +jorn; got it ←
15:54:10 <satya> @GK - agree, I think Paolo put it precisely - example tools
Satya Sahoo: @GK - agree, I think Paolo put it precisely - example tools ←
<luc> TOPIC: Model Task Force
Summary: Three proposals were put forward in the agenda. The first one was approved. We began discussions on the second, but didn't have time to reach consensus. The third one was left for next week.
<luc>Summary: Three proposals were put forward in the agenda. The first one was approved. We began discussions on the second, but didn't have time to reach consensus. The third one was left for next week.
15:54:17 <pgroth> proposed: 1. there is a distinction between process execution and process specification/definition; 2. process specification/definition is referred to as recipe in the charter and is out of sope for this WG; 3. terminology (for process specification/definition, process execution, recipe) needs to be agreed on, if appropriate
PROPOSED: 1. there is a distinction between process execution and process specification/definition; 2. process specification/definition is referred to as recipe in the charter and is out of sope for this WG; 3. terminology (for process specification/definition, process execution, recipe) needs to be agreed on, if appropriate ←
15:54:18 <pgroth> there is a distinction between process execution and process specification/definition
Paul Groth: there is a distinction between process execution and process specification/definition ←
15:54:18 <pgroth> process specification/definition is referred to as recipe in the charter and is out of sope for this WG
Paul Groth: process specification/definition is referred to as recipe in the charter and is out of sope for this WG ←
15:54:18 <pgroth> terminology (for process specification/definition, process execution, recipe) needs to be agreed on, if appropriate
Paul Groth: terminology (for process specification/definition, process execution, recipe) needs to be agreed on, if appropriate ←
15:54:29 <tlebo> pgroth: Concepts discussions - process execution and process specification.
Paul Groth: Concepts discussions - process execution and process specification. ←
15:54:46 <khalidbelhajjame> How easy to convince people/organization that are non members of the WG to implement a model that they did not specify?
Khalid Belhajjame: How easy to convince people/organization that are non members of the WG to implement a model that they did not specify? ←
15:55:03 <tlebo> pgroth: process specification equates to "recipe" in prov-xg. we are not creating a specification language.
Paul Groth: process specification equates to "recipe" in prov-xg. we are not creating a specification language. ←
15:55:05 <satya> q+
Satya Sahoo: q+ ←
15:55:18 <tlebo> pgroth: creating process specification language is out of scope.
Paul Groth: creating process specification language is out of scope. ←
15:55:21 <dgarijo> @khalid: true
Daniel Garijo: @khalid: true ←
15:55:44 <satya> q-
Satya Sahoo: q- ←
15:55:57 <satya> +1
Satya Sahoo: +1 ←
15:55:57 <smiles> +1
Simon Miles: +1 ←
15:55:58 <JamesMyers> +1
James Myers: +1 ←
15:55:58 <jcheney> +1
James Cheney: +1 ←
15:55:58 <khalidbelhajjame> +1
Khalid Belhajjame: +1 ←
15:55:59 <dgarijo> +1
Daniel Garijo: +1 ←
15:55:59 <Yogesh> +1
Yogesh Simmhan: +1 ←
15:56:00 <GK_> +1 agree with distinction
Graham Klyne: +1 agree with distinction ←
15:56:00 <jun> +1
15:56:00 <Edoardo> +1
Edoardo Pignotti: +1 ←
15:56:00 <olaf> +1
Olaf Hartig: +1 ←
15:56:01 <estephan> +1
Eric Stephan: +1 ←
15:56:01 <frew> +1
James Frew: +1 ←
15:56:01 <dcorsar> +1
David Corsar: +1 ←
15:56:03 <paolo_> +1
Paolo Missier: +1 ←
15:56:06 <zednik> +1
Stephan Zednik: +1 ←
15:56:07 <tlebo> satya: we need to distinguish, but we are not defining what is actually used.
Satya Sahoo: we need to distinguish, but we are not defining what is actually used. ←
15:56:08 <tlebo> +1
+1 ←
15:56:09 <GK_> -1 link to specific language
Graham Klyne: -1 link to specific language ←
15:56:11 <tlebo> (group can link to them, but are not defining them)
(group can link to them, but are not defining them) ←
15:56:12 <jcheney> and we could point to other such languages (XProc, BPEL, ...)
James Cheney: and we could point to other such languages (XProc, BPEL, ...) ←
15:56:15 <tfrancart> +1
Thomas Francart: +1 ←
15:56:24 <SamCoppens> +1
Sam Coppens: +1 ←
15:56:29 <tlebo> action: add xproc and BPEL to wiki page
ACTION: add xproc and BPEL to wiki page ←
15:56:29 <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - add
Trackbot IRC Bot: Sorry, couldn't find user - add ←
15:56:31 <satya> @James - agree
Satya Sahoo: @James - agree ←
15:56:41 <VinhNguyen> +1
Vinh Nguyen: +1 ←
15:57:02 <tlebo> GK_: recognizing that there may be languages and they can be implemented
Graham Klyne: recognizing that there may be languages and they can be implemented ←
15:57:17 <JamesMyers> the only model question I have is whether we need process which has executions and a recipe or just the link between process execution and process recipe (w/o an independent thing called process)
James Myers: the only model question I have is whether we need process which has executions and a recipe or just the link between process execution and process recipe (w/o an independent thing called process) ←
15:57:18 <jcheney> "including, but not limited to language 1, language 2, language 3, ..."
James Cheney: "including, but not limited to language 1, language 2, language 3, ..." ←
15:57:21 <Lena> +1
Helena Deus: +1 ←
15:57:37 <tlebo> accepted: 1. there is a distinction between process execution and process specification/definition; 2. process specification/definition is referred to as recipe in the charter and is out of sope for this WG; 3. terminology (for process specification/definition, process execution, recipe) needs to be agreed on, if appropriate
RESOLVED: 1. there is a distinction between process execution and process specification/definition; 2. process specification/definition is referred to as recipe in the charter and is out of sope for this WG; 3. terminology (for process specification/definition, process execution, recipe) needs to be agreed on, if appropriate ←
15:57:45 <tlebo> pgroth: Proposal 2: process execution
Paul Groth: Proposal 2: process execution ←
15:57:48 <pgroth> PROPOSED: A process execution has a duration, i.e. it spans a time interval
PROPOSED: A process execution has a duration, i.e. it spans a time interval ←
15:57:55 <tlebo> pgroth: process execution has time interval.
Paul Groth: process execution has time interval. ←
15:57:58 <satya> +1
Satya Sahoo: +1 ←
15:57:59 <GK_> q+ to ask if the past constraint is necessary
Graham Klyne: q+ to ask if the past constraint is necessary ←
15:58:04 <dgarijo> +1
Daniel Garijo: +1 ←
15:58:17 <satya> q+
Satya Sahoo: q+ ←
15:58:18 <Christine> Apologies all. I will need to leave the call.
Christine Runnegar: Apologies all. I will need to leave the call. ←
15:58:21 <Luc> q+
Luc Moreau: q+ ←
15:58:25 <Zakim> -??P6
Zakim IRC Bot: -??P6 ←
15:58:25 <tlebo> GK_: does anything break if we don't require start of execution to be in past?
Graham Klyne: does anything break if we don't require start of execution to be in past? ←
15:59:05 <tlebo> satya: it is important that process has started in past. provenance metadata is w.r.t history. it is a defining criteria for provenance.
Satya Sahoo: it is important that process has started in past. provenance metadata is w.r.t history. it is a defining criteria for provenance. ←
15:59:08 <smiles> q+
Simon Miles: q+ ←
15:59:13 <satya> q-
Satya Sahoo: q- ←
15:59:14 <pgroth> ack GK_
Paul Groth: ack GK_ ←
15:59:15 <Zakim> GK_, you wanted to ask if the past constraint is necessary
Zakim IRC Bot: GK_, you wanted to ask if the past constraint is necessary ←
15:59:16 <GK_> q-
Graham Klyne: q- ←
15:59:20 <pgroth> ack Luc
Paul Groth: ack Luc ←
15:59:28 <paolo_> @GK provenance is based on observations... so yes, the process exec should have started before we can observe what it does
Paolo Missier: @GK provenance is based on observations... so yes, the process exec should have started before we can observe what it does ←
15:59:39 <tlebo> luc: +1 satya, we are not defining what will happen in future or predicting. not about specifying things in future. describing what has happened in the past.
Luc Moreau: +1 satya, we are not defining what will happen in future or predicting. not about specifying things in future. describing what has happened in the past. ←
15:59:41 <pgroth> ack smiles
Paul Groth: ack smiles ←
15:59:45 <JamesMyers> anticipated provenance is workflow :-)
James Myers: anticipated provenance is workflow :-) ←
16:00:08 <GK_> (I'm trying to think of examples ... best I can do is fiction)
Graham Klyne: (I'm trying to think of examples ... best I can do is fiction) ←
16:00:20 <GK_> What Simon said
Graham Klyne: What Simon said ←
16:00:35 <khalidbelhajjame> +q
Khalid Belhajjame: +q ←
16:00:44 <pgroth> proposed: process execution has a duration and A process execution has either completed (occurred in the past) or is occurring in present (partially complete). In other words, the start of a process execution is always in the past.
PROPOSED: process execution has a duration and A process execution has either completed (occurred in the past) or is occurring in present (partially complete). In other words, the start of a process execution is always in the past. ←
16:00:45 <paolo_> q+
Paolo Missier: q+ ←
16:00:45 <JamesMyers> has a duration or can have a duration?
James Myers: has a duration or can have a duration? ←
16:00:57 <paolo_> duration?
Paolo Missier: duration? ←
16:01:00 <Luc> q+
Luc Moreau: q+ ←
16:01:05 <tlebo> proposed: process execution has a duration and is in the past.
PROPOSED: process execution has a duration and is in the past. ←
16:01:17 <Zakim> -GK_
Zakim IRC Bot: -GK_ ←
16:01:42 <pgroth> ack khalidbelhajjame
Paul Groth: ack khalidbelhajjame ←
16:01:47 <pgroth> ack paolo_
Paul Groth: ack paolo_ ←
16:01:47 <JamesMyers> in OPM, time was 'optional'...
James Myers: in OPM, time was 'optional'... ←
16:01:58 <zednik> q+
Stephan Zednik: q+ ←
16:02:00 <satya> @khalid - the definition of process incorporates time dimension
Satya Sahoo: @khalid - the definition of process incorporates time dimension ←
16:02:08 <smiles> 'non-instantaneous'?
Simon Miles: 'non-instantaneous'? ←
16:02:08 <tlebo> paolo_: starting time is enough to talk about provenance. no more is needed. duration may be ongoing. not necessary to get into it.
Paolo Missier: starting time is enough to talk about provenance. no more is needed. duration may be ongoing. not necessary to get into it. ←
16:02:09 <paolo_> q-
Paolo Missier: q- ←
16:02:30 <pgroth> ack Luc
Paul Groth: ack Luc ←
16:03:39 <khalidbelhajjame> +q
Khalid Belhajjame: +q ←
16:03:45 <paolo_> q+
Paolo Missier: q+ ←
16:03:51 <tlebo> luc: disagrees with paolo. We are creating a modeling language to help us describe what has happening in the past. We _could_ describe everything as being instantaneous. Processes do not necessarily have to a duration; they could be instantaneous. Instead, what we say is there is a start time and end time. Also, we should not merge proposals.
Luc Moreau: disagrees with paolo. We are creating a modeling language to help us describe what has happening in the past. We _could_ describe everything as being instantaneous. Processes do not necessarily have to a duration; they could be instantaneous. Instead, what we say is there is a start time and end time. Also, we should not merge proposals. ←
16:04:00 <pgroth> ack zednik
Paul Groth: ack zednik ←
16:04:13 <tlebo> zednik: agrees, but is time a required property or optional?
Stephan Zednik: agrees, but is time a required property or optional? ←
16:04:32 <tlebo> pgroth: it has a duration, not that you have to specify it. (open world?)
Paul Groth: it has a duration, not that you have to specify it. (open world?) ←
16:04:41 <satya> @Stephan - without time dimension, process cannot be distinguished from notion of resource
Satya Sahoo: @Stephan - without time dimension, process cannot be distinguished from notion of resource ←
16:04:43 <pgroth> ack khalidbelhajjame
Paul Groth: ack khalidbelhajjame ←
16:05:04 <Luc> how long did it last?
Luc Moreau: how long did it last? ←
16:05:18 <Zakim> -smiles
Zakim IRC Bot: -smiles ←
16:05:23 <pgroth> ack paolo_
Paul Groth: ack paolo_ ←
16:05:28 <zednik> @Satya - not sure what you mean, perhaps follow-up in email
Stephan Zednik: @Satya - not sure what you mean, perhaps follow-up in email ←
16:05:51 <JamesMyers> OPM considered time stamps as a way to verify/challenge the processing claims (evidence that you should trust the provenance)
James Myers: OPM considered time stamps as a way to verify/challenge the processing claims (evidence that you should trust the provenance) ←
16:06:06 <pgroth> proposed: A process execution has a duration, i.e. it spans a time interval
PROPOSED: A process execution has a duration, i.e. it spans a time interval ←
16:06:10 <tlebo> paolo_: useful to have start time so can reason about events. end time is less important.
Paolo Missier: useful to have start time so can reason about events. end time is less important. ←
16:06:13 <dgarijo> +1
Daniel Garijo: +1 ←
16:06:14 <satya> +1
Satya Sahoo: +1 ←
16:06:14 <JamesMyers> +1
James Myers: +1 ←
16:06:16 <frew> +1
James Frew: +1 ←
16:06:17 <paolo_> q-
Paolo Missier: q- ←
16:06:17 <StephenCresswell> +1
Stephen Cresswell: +1 ←
16:06:17 <zednik> +1
Stephan Zednik: +1 ←
16:06:18 <paolo_> +1
Paolo Missier: +1 ←
16:06:20 <jcheney> +1
James Cheney: +1 ←
16:06:21 <olaf> +1 to duration
Olaf Hartig: +1 to duration ←
16:06:21 <SamCoppens> +1
Sam Coppens: +1 ←
16:06:24 <dcorsar> +1
David Corsar: +1 ←
16:06:25 <estephan> +1
Eric Stephan: +1 ←
16:06:25 <Edoardo> +1
Edoardo Pignotti: +1 ←
16:06:29 <jun> 0
16:06:33 <Yogesh> +1
Yogesh Simmhan: +1 ←
16:06:34 <khalidbelhajjame> 0
16:06:37 <jorn> +1 even though duration can be incredibly short
Jörn Hees: +1 even though duration can be incredibly short ←
16:06:37 <Lena> -1 to making duration a requirement
Helena Deus: -1 to making duration a requirement ←
16:06:39 <tlebo> 0
0 ←
16:06:58 <paolo_> it's not that end time is less important, rather that process executions may not have a known end time
Paolo Missier: it's not that end time is less important, rather that process executions may not have a known end time ←
16:06:59 <zednik> -1 to make duration a requirement
Stephan Zednik: -1 to make duration a requirement ←
16:07:27 <estephan> agreed with Stephan
Eric Stephan: agreed with Stephan ←
16:07:28 <tlebo> (open world can help us here, no?)
(open world can help us here, no?) ←
16:07:41 <zednik> @tlebo - agreed
Stephan Zednik: @tlebo - agreed ←
16:07:43 <JamesMyers> process executions are not constrained to be instantaneous...
James Myers: process executions are not constrained to be instantaneous... ←
16:07:45 <paolo_> "process executions have a temporal characterisation" sounds trivially true...
Paolo Missier: "process executions have a temporal characterisation" sounds trivially true... ←
16:07:59 <satya> q+
Satya Sahoo: q+ ←
16:08:20 <tlebo> pgroth: we need to finish this up on mailing list.
Paul Groth: we need to finish this up on mailing list. ←
16:08:49 <tlebo> satya: philosophy. execution occurs over time - essential. can be instantaneous or over time (depending on granularity).
Satya Sahoo: philosophy. execution occurs over time - essential. can be instantaneous or over time (depending on granularity). ←
16:08:57 <tlebo> satya: does not need to be explicitly noted, but is essential aspect.
Satya Sahoo: does not need to be explicitly noted, but is essential aspect. ←
16:08:58 <satya> q-
Satya Sahoo: q- ←
16:09:24 <Zakim> -jorn
Zakim IRC Bot: -jorn ←
16:09:24 <tlebo> pgroth: group to finish up process execution.
Paul Groth: group to finish up process execution. ←
16:09:31 <estephan> bye
Eric Stephan: bye ←
16:09:31 <Zakim> - +1.216.368.aagg
Zakim IRC Bot: - +1.216.368.aagg ←
16:09:32 <Zakim> -paolo_
Zakim IRC Bot: -paolo_ ←
16:09:33 <Zakim> -edsu
Zakim IRC Bot: -edsu ←
16:09:34 <Zakim> -khalidbelhajjame
Zakim IRC Bot: -khalidbelhajjame ←
16:09:34 <Zakim> -Yogesh
Zakim IRC Bot: -Yogesh ←
16:09:34 <tlebo> SCRIBE HELP
SCRIBE HELP ←
16:09:35 <Zakim> -dgarijo
Zakim IRC Bot: -dgarijo ←
16:09:36 <Zakim> -jcheney
Zakim IRC Bot: -jcheney ←
16:09:36 <Zakim> - +1.509.554.aabb
Zakim IRC Bot: - +1.509.554.aabb ←
16:09:38 <Zakim> -[IPcaller]
Zakim IRC Bot: -[IPcaller] ←
16:09:40 <Zakim> -olaf
Zakim IRC Bot: -olaf ←
16:09:42 <Zakim> - +1.937.708.aajj
Zakim IRC Bot: - +1.937.708.aajj ←
16:09:44 <Zakim> -SamCoppens
Zakim IRC Bot: -SamCoppens ←
16:09:46 <Zakim> -[IPcaller.a]
Zakim IRC Bot: -[IPcaller.a] ←
16:09:48 <Zakim> - +1.518.276.aahh
Zakim IRC Bot: - +1.518.276.aahh ←
16:09:50 <Zakim> -??P20
Zakim IRC Bot: -??P20 ←
16:09:52 <Zakim> +??P0
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P0 ←
16:09:52 <tlebo> rrsagent, set log public
rrsagent, set log public ←
16:09:54 <Zakim> - +1.518.633.aaee
Zakim IRC Bot: - +1.518.633.aaee ←
16:09:56 <Zakim> - +1.832.386.aadd
Zakim IRC Bot: - +1.832.386.aadd ←
16:09:58 <Zakim> -??P11
Zakim IRC Bot: -??P11 ←
16:09:58 <tlebo> rrsagent, draft minutes
rrsagent, draft minutes ←
16:09:58 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/06/09-prov-minutes.html tlebo
RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/06/09-prov-minutes.html tlebo ←
16:10:00 <Zakim> -??P36
Zakim IRC Bot: -??P36 ←
16:10:02 <Zakim> -Luc
Zakim IRC Bot: -Luc ←
16:10:04 <Zakim> -??P0
Zakim IRC Bot: -??P0 ←
16:10:12 <pgroth> Regrets: Yolanda Gil, Paulo Pinheiro da Silva, Kai Eckert, Carl Reed
16:10:53 <tlebo> trackbot, end telcon
trackbot, end telcon ←
16:10:53 <trackbot> Zakim, list attendees
Trackbot IRC Bot: Zakim, list attendees ←
16:10:53 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been Luc, pgroth, jorn, [IPcaller], +1.315.723.aaaa, tlebo, +1.509.554.aabb, dgarijo, GK_, +49.302.093.aacc, olaf, smiles, +1.832.386.aadd,
Zakim IRC Bot: As of this point the attendees have been Luc, pgroth, jorn, [IPcaller], +1.315.723.aaaa, tlebo, +1.509.554.aabb, dgarijo, GK_, +49.302.093.aacc, olaf, smiles, +1.832.386.aadd, ←
16:10:54 <trackbot> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
Trackbot IRC Bot: RRSAgent, please draft minutes ←
16:10:54 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/06/09-prov-minutes.html trackbot
RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/06/09-prov-minutes.html trackbot ←
16:10:55 <trackbot> RRSAgent, bye
Trackbot IRC Bot: RRSAgent, bye ←
16:10:55 <RRSAgent> I see 3 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2011/06/09-prov-actions.rdf :
RRSAgent IRC Bot: I see 3 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2011/06/09-prov-actions.rdf : ←
16:10:57 <Zakim> ... jcheney, +1.518.633.aaee, +1.216.368.aagg, SamCoppens, +1.518.276.aahh, +1.540.449.aaii, paolo_, Yogesh, khalidbelhajjame, edsu, +1.937.708.aajj
Zakim IRC Bot: ... jcheney, +1.518.633.aaee, +1.216.368.aagg, SamCoppens, +1.518.276.aahh, +1.540.449.aaii, paolo_, Yogesh, khalidbelhajjame, edsu, +1.937.708.aajj ←
16:11:09 <Zakim> -tlebo
Zakim IRC Bot: -tlebo ←
16:11:10 <Zakim> -pgroth
Zakim IRC Bot: -pgroth ←
16:11:10 <Zakim> SW_(PROV)11:00AM has ended
Zakim IRC Bot: SW_(PROV)11:00AM has ended ←
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