edit

Provenance Working Group Teleconference

Minutes of 09 June 2011

Agenda
http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2011.06.09
Seen
Carl Reed, Christine Runnegar, Daniel Garijo, David Corsar, Ed Summers, Edoardo Pignotti, Eric Stephan, Graham Klyne, Helena Deus, James Myers, James Frew, James Cheney, Jun Zhao, Jörn Hees, Kai Eckert, Khalid Belhajjame, Luc Moreau, Olaf Hartig, Paolo Missier, Paul Groth, Paulo Pinheiro da Silva, Sam Coppens, Satya Sahoo, Simon Miles, Simon Dobson, Stephan Zednik, Stephen Cresswell, Thomas Francart, Timothy Lebo, Vinh Nguyen, Yogesh Simmhan, Yolanda Gil
Regrets
Yolanda Gil, Paulo Pinheiro da Silva, Kai Eckert, Carl Reed
Chair
Paul Groth
Scribe
Timothy Lebo
IRC Log
Original
Resolutions
  1. minutes link
  2. to define the necessary concepts that allow us to express the provenance of an invariant view or perspective on a thing link
  3. 1. there is a distinction between process execution and process specification/definition; 2. process specification/definition is referred to as recipe in the charter and is out of sope for this WG; 3. terminology (for process specification/definition, process execution, recipe) needs to be agreed on, if appropriate link
Topics
  1. Admin

    The last minutes were accepted; actions-10 and 11 are carried over, all other actions were completed. Invited expert issues are now all resolved by the W3C; new members of the group are invited to introduce themselves on the mailing list. All are again encouraged to sign up to be scribes for future meetings.

    1. Minutes from last week

    2. Coordinators of task forces

    3. Record vote that took place during the week

    4. open actions

    5. Invited experts have been invited.

    6. Scribes

  2. Plans from PAQ Task Force until Face-to-Face meeting

    Simon Miles and Yogesh presented the plans and timetable for the PAQ TF. A number of participants volunteered to contribute to this document.

  3. Plans for Connection Task Force until Face-to-face meeting

    Eric presented the plans drafted with Kai for the Connection TF. A timetable still needs to be produced. Group members have volunteered to contribute to the task force.

  4. Plans for Implementation and Test case Task Force until F2F1

    Helena and Stephan presented their plan for the task force. The focus of the discussion was on the scope of this TF. Actual plans until F2F1 still need to be formulated. It was agreed that the document had just been released and more time was needed to reflect on it. Plans for F2F1 will be written during the week.

  5. Model Task Force

    Three proposals were put forward in the agenda. The first one was approved. We began discussions on the second, but didn't have time to reach consensus. The third one was left for next week.

14:51:55 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/06/09-prov-irc

RRSAgent IRC Bot: logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/06/09-prov-irc

14:51:57 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world

Trackbot IRC Bot: RRSAgent, make logs world

14:51:59 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be

Trackbot IRC Bot: Zakim, this will be

14:51:59 <Zakim> I don't understand 'this will be', trackbot

Zakim IRC Bot: I don't understand 'this will be', trackbot

14:52:00 <trackbot> Meeting: Provenance Working Group Teleconference
14:52:00 <trackbot> Date: 09 June 2011
14:52:25 <pgroth> Zakim, this will be PROV

Paul Groth: Zakim, this will be PROV

14:52:25 <Zakim> ok, pgroth; I see SW_(PROV)11:00AM scheduled to start in 8 minutes

Zakim IRC Bot: ok, pgroth; I see SW_(PROV)11:00AM scheduled to start in 8 minutes

14:52:48 <pgroth> Agenda: http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2011.06.09
14:53:05 <pgroth> Chair: pgroth
14:53:26 <pgroth> rrsagent, make logs public

Paul Groth: rrsagent, make logs public

14:54:29 <Zakim> SW_(PROV)11:00AM has now started

Zakim IRC Bot: SW_(PROV)11:00AM has now started

14:54:36 <Zakim> +??P3

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P3

14:54:52 <Luc> zakim, ??P3 is me

Luc Moreau: zakim, ??P3 is me

14:54:52 <Zakim> +Luc; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +Luc; got it

14:55:12 <Zakim> -Luc

Zakim IRC Bot: -Luc

14:55:14 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]

Zakim IRC Bot: +[IPcaller]

14:55:27 <pgroth> Zakim, +[IPcaller] is me

Paul Groth: Zakim, +[IPcaller] is me

14:55:27 <Zakim> sorry, pgroth, I do not recognize a party named '+[IPcaller]'

Zakim IRC Bot: sorry, pgroth, I do not recognize a party named '+[IPcaller]'

14:55:37 <pgroth> Zakim, who is on the phone?

Paul Groth: Zakim, who is on the phone?

14:55:37 <Zakim> On the phone I see [IPcaller]

Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see [IPcaller]

14:55:54 <pgroth> zakim, [IPcaller] is me

Paul Groth: zakim, [IPcaller] is me

14:55:54 <Zakim> +pgroth; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +pgroth; got it

14:56:11 <Zakim> +??P3

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P3

14:56:52 <Zakim> +??P5

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P5

14:57:01 <pgroth> would someone be willing to scribe?

Paul Groth: would someone be willing to scribe?

14:57:32 <Zakim> -??P5

Zakim IRC Bot: -??P5

14:57:46 <Zakim> +??P5

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P5

14:57:52 <jorn> Zakim, ??p5 is me

Jörn Hees: Zakim, ??p5 is me

14:57:52 <Zakim> +jorn; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +jorn; got it

14:58:59 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]

Zakim IRC Bot: +[IPcaller]

14:59:00 <Zakim> + +1.315.723.aaaa

Zakim IRC Bot: + +1.315.723.aaaa

14:59:05 <tlebo> Zakim, aaaa is me

Timothy Lebo: Zakim, aaaa is me

14:59:05 <Zakim> +tlebo; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +tlebo; got it

14:59:16 <Zakim> +??P20

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P20

14:59:25 <Luc> zakim, who is on the phone?

Luc Moreau: zakim, who is on the phone?

14:59:25 <Zakim> On the phone I see pgroth, ??P3, jorn, [IPcaller], tlebo, ??P20

Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see pgroth, ??P3, jorn, [IPcaller], tlebo, ??P20

14:59:50 <Zakim> + +1.509.554.aabb

Zakim IRC Bot: + +1.509.554.aabb

14:59:51 <Luc> zakim, ??P3 is me

Luc Moreau: zakim, ??P3 is me

14:59:52 <Zakim> +Luc; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +Luc; got it

15:00:02 <Zakim> +??P31

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P31

15:00:21 <Zakim> +??P36

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P36

15:00:24 <dgarijo> Zakim, ??P31 is me

Daniel Garijo: Zakim, ??P31 is me

15:00:24 <Zakim> +dgarijo; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +dgarijo; got it

15:00:42 <Zakim> +??P38

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P38

15:01:00 <GK_> zakim, ??p38 is me

Graham Klyne: zakim, ??p38 is me

15:01:00 <Zakim> +GK_; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +GK_; got it

15:01:19 <Zakim> + +49.302.093.aacc

Zakim IRC Bot: + +49.302.093.aacc

15:01:38 <olaf> zakim, aacc is me

Olaf Hartig: zakim, aacc is me

15:01:38 <Zakim> +olaf; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +olaf; got it

15:01:49 <Zakim> +??P21

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P21

15:01:56 <smiles> zakim, ??P21 is me

Simon Miles: zakim, ??P21 is me

15:01:56 <Zakim> +smiles; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +smiles; got it

15:02:01 <GK_> (I need to leave promptly at the hour)

Graham Klyne: (I need to leave promptly at the hour)

15:02:08 <Zakim> + +1.832.386.aadd

Zakim IRC Bot: + +1.832.386.aadd

15:02:17 <Zakim> +??P2

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P2

15:02:30 <Zakim> +??P6

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P6

15:02:33 <Zakim> -??P2

Zakim IRC Bot: -??P2

15:02:59 <Zakim> +??P1

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P1

15:03:15 <Zakim> +??P7

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P7

15:03:16 <jorn> Zakim, who is on the phone?

Jörn Hees: Zakim, who is on the phone?

15:03:17 <Zakim> On the phone I see pgroth, Luc, jorn, [IPcaller], tlebo, ??P20, +1.509.554.aabb, dgarijo, ??P36, GK_, olaf, smiles, +1.832.386.aadd, ??P6, ??P1, ??P7

Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see pgroth, Luc, jorn, [IPcaller], tlebo, ??P20, +1.509.554.aabb, dgarijo, ??P36, GK_, olaf, smiles, +1.832.386.aadd, ??P6, ??P1, ??P7

15:03:23 <jcheney> zakim, ??P7 is me

James Cheney: zakim, ??P7 is me

15:03:23 <Zakim> +jcheney; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +jcheney; got it

15:03:31 <tlebo> :-)

Timothy Lebo: :-)

15:03:34 <tlebo> scribe: tlebo

(Scribe set to Timothy Lebo)

15:03:40 <Zakim> + +1.518.633.aaee

Zakim IRC Bot: + +1.518.633.aaee

15:03:40 <jcheney> AFK for a minute

James Cheney: AFK for a minute

15:03:51 <pgroth>  http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/meeting/2011-06-02

Paul Groth: http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/meeting/2011-06-02

<luc>Topic: Admin

1. Admin

Summary: The last minutes were accepted; actions-10 and 11 are carried over, all other actions were completed. Invited expert issues are now all resolved by the W3C; new members of the group are invited to introduce themselves on the mailing list. All are again encouraged to sign up to be scribes for future meetings.

<luc>Summary: The last minutes were accepted; actions-10 and 11 are carried over, all other actions were completed. Invited expert issues are now all resolved by the W3C; new members of the group are invited to introduce themselves on the mailing list. All are again encouraged to sign up to be scribes for future meetings.
15:03:59 <tlebo> subtopic: Minutes from last week

1.1. Minutes from last week

15:04:02 <dgarijo> +1

Daniel Garijo: +1

15:04:03 <smiles> +1

Simon Miles: +1

15:04:06 <estephan> +1

Eric Stephan: +1

15:04:06 <tlebo> proposed: accept minutes

PROPOSED: accept minutes

15:04:09 <frew> +1

James Frew: +1

15:04:11 <olaf> +1

Olaf Hartig: +1

15:04:11 <GK_> +1

Graham Klyne: +1

15:04:12 <simoninireland> +1

Simon Dobson: +1

15:04:14 <zednik> +1

Stephan Zednik: +1

15:04:22 <jorn> +1

Jörn Hees: +1

15:04:24 <StephenCresswell> +1

Stephen Cresswell: +1

15:04:24 <tlebo> +1

+1

15:04:44 <Zakim> + +329331aaff

Zakim IRC Bot: + +329331aaff

15:04:45 <tlebo> accepted: minutes

RESOLVED: minutes

15:04:53 <tlebo> subtopic: Coordinators of task forces

1.2. Coordinators of task forces

15:05:06 <Zakim> + +1.216.368.aagg

Zakim IRC Bot: + +1.216.368.aagg

15:05:14 <tlebo> pgroth: in addition to coordinators announced last week, Helene Deus and Stephan Zednik will coordinate the Implementation and Test Cases TF till F2F1

Paul Groth: in addition to coordinators announced last week, Helene Deus and Stephan Zednik will coordinate the Implementation and Test Cases TF till F2F1

15:05:17 <Zakim> +??P11

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P11

15:05:34 <tlebo> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/ProvenanceTaskForces

http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/ProvenanceTaskForces

15:06:00 <Zakim> +[IPcaller.a]

Zakim IRC Bot: +[IPcaller.a]

15:06:02 <SamCoppens> zakim, +329331aaff is me

Sam Coppens: zakim, +329331aaff is me

15:06:02 <Zakim> +SamCoppens; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +SamCoppens; got it

<luc>subtopic: Record vote that took place during the week

1.3. Record vote that took place during the week

<luc>pgroth: we take note of a vote made during the week

Paul Groth: we take note of a vote made during the week [ Scribe Assist by Luc Moreau ]

15:06:04 <pgroth> In a first instance, to define the necessary concepts that allow us to express the provenance of an invariant view or perspective on a thing

Paul Groth: In a first instance, to define the necessary concepts that allow us to express the provenance of an invariant view or perspective on a thing

15:06:20 <pgroth> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-prov-wg/2011Jun/0096.html

Paul Groth: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-prov-wg/2011Jun/0096.html

15:06:39 <tlebo> pgroth: is there objections to the proposal?

Paul Groth: is there objections to the proposal?

15:06:49 <tlebo> oops

oops

15:07:05 <tlebo> accepted: to define the necessary concepts that allow us to express the provenance of an invariant view or perspective on a thing

RESOLVED: to define the necessary concepts that allow us to express the provenance of an invariant view or perspective on a thing

15:07:15 <tlebo> subtopic: open actions

1.4. open actions

15:07:12 <pgroth> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/track/actions/open

Paul Groth: http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/track/actions/open

15:07:43 <tlebo> there were actions for Resource

there were actions for Resource

15:07:51 <dgarijo> @tlebo: definition for resource or agreement to use the IVPTs?

Daniel Garijo: @tlebo: definition for resource or agreement to use the IVPTs?

15:07:54 <tlebo> there were actions for the Task Forces - on way to being done.

there were actions for the Task Forces - on way to being done.

15:07:55 <Zakim> + +1.518.276.aahh

Zakim IRC Bot: + +1.518.276.aahh

15:08:09 <tlebo> subtopic: Invited experts have been invited.

1.5. Invited experts have been invited.

15:08:22 <Zakim> + +1.540.449.aaii

Zakim IRC Bot: + +1.540.449.aaii

15:08:36 <Zakim> +??P19

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P19

15:08:46 <Yogesh> zakim, + +1.540.449.aaii is Yogesh

Yogesh Simmhan: zakim, + +1.540.449.aaii is Yogesh

15:08:46 <Zakim> I don't understand '+ +1.540.449.aaii is Yogesh', Yogesh

Zakim IRC Bot: I don't understand '+ +1.540.449.aaii is Yogesh', Yogesh

15:08:48 <dgarijo> i get a lot of noise :(

Daniel Garijo: i get a lot of noise :(

15:08:49 <tlebo> invited expert #1. - (broken voice connection)

invited expert #1. - (broken voice connection)

15:08:59 <Luc> generally, people who have joined recently may want to send an introduction to the mailing list

Luc Moreau: generally, people who have joined recently may want to send an introduction to the mailing list

15:09:02 <paolo_> zakim, ??P19 is me

Paolo Missier: zakim, ??P19 is me

15:09:02 <Zakim> +paolo_; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +paolo_; got it

15:09:14 <jorn> Zakim, who is noisy?

Jörn Hees: Zakim, who is noisy?

15:09:25 <Zakim> jorn, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: pgroth (9%), ??P36 (13%)

Zakim IRC Bot: jorn, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: pgroth (9%), ??P36 (13%)

15:09:29 <Yogesh> zakim, +1.540.449 is Yogesh

Yogesh Simmhan: zakim, +1.540.449 is Yogesh

15:09:29 <Zakim> +Yogesh; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +Yogesh; got it

15:09:36 <pgroth> Zakim, mute ??P36

Paul Groth: Zakim, mute ??P36

15:09:36 <Zakim> ??P36 should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: ??P36 should now be muted

15:10:02 <Zakim> +??P24

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P24

15:10:07 <tlebo> any other intros on phone? please introduce yourselves on the mailing list.

any other intros on phone? please introduce yourselves on the mailing list.

15:10:19 <khalidbelhajjame> zakim, ??P24 is really me

Khalid Belhajjame: zakim, ??P24 is really me

15:10:19 <Zakim> +khalidbelhajjame; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +khalidbelhajjame; got it

15:10:22 <tlebo> subtopic: Scribes

1.6. Scribes

15:10:26 <tlebo> please sign up.

please sign up.

15:10:29 <pgroth> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/Scribes

Paul Groth: http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/Scribes

15:11:02 <tlebo> topic: Plans from PAQ Task Force until Face-to-Face meeting

2. Plans from PAQ Task Force until Face-to-Face meeting

Summary: Simon Miles and Yogesh presented the plans and timetable for the PAQ TF. A number of participants volunteered to contribute to this document.

<luc>Summary: Simon Miles and Yogesh presented the plans and timetable for the PAQ TF. A number of participants volunteered to contribute to this document.
15:11:09 <Zakim> -jorn

Zakim IRC Bot: -jorn

15:11:18 <pgroth> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-prov-wg/2011Jun/0068.html

Paul Groth: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-prov-wg/2011Jun/0068.html

15:11:24 <Zakim> +??P5

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P5

15:11:30 <jorn> Zakim, ??p5 is me

Jörn Hees: Zakim, ??p5 is me

15:11:30 <Zakim> +jorn; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +jorn; got it

15:11:56 <dgarijo> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/F2F1_Access_and_Query_Proposal

Daniel Garijo: http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/F2F1_Access_and_Query_Proposal

15:12:07 <tlebo> smiles: they proposed on mailing list, no objections yet. 2 questions - 1) identity and 2) location; how to obtain and embedding in HTML.

Simon Miles: they proposed on mailing list, no objections yet. 2 questions - 1) identity and 2) location; how to obtain and embedding in HTML.

15:12:30 <tlebo> smiles: inspired by incubator proposal in report.

Simon Miles: inspired by incubator proposal in report.

15:12:39 <Zakim> -??P6

Zakim IRC Bot: -??P6

15:12:56 <tlebo> smiles: want to start populating templates. feedback on templates welcome, too.

Simon Miles: want to start populating templates. feedback on templates welcome, too.

15:13:43 <tlebo> smiles: want to discover issues in next week so we have them to discuss at F2F.

Simon Miles: want to discover issues in next week so we have them to discuss at F2F.

15:13:48 <Zakim> +??P6

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P6

15:13:49 <pgroth> q?

Paul Groth: q?

15:14:32 <paolo_> q+

Paolo Missier: q+

15:14:57 <smiles> http://www.w3.org/TR/2009/REC-powder-dr-20090901/#httplink

Simon Miles: http://www.w3.org/TR/2009/REC-powder-dr-20090901/#httplink

15:15:04 <satya> http://www.w3.org/2007/powder/

Satya Sahoo: http://www.w3.org/2007/powder/

15:15:10 <tlebo> paolo_: what is powder? Can we have reference?

Paolo Missier: what is powder? Can we have reference?

15:15:44 <tlebo> paolo_: make sure powder link is obvious in the writeup.

Paolo Missier: make sure powder link is obvious in the writeup.

15:16:06 <tlebo> pgroth: timetable?

Paul Groth: timetable?

15:16:45 <tlebo> smiles: today - finish scope asap. by 23rd June finish questions. by 30tg draft for F2F.

Simon Miles: today - finish scope asap. by 23rd June finish questions. by 30tg draft for F2F.

15:17:31 <olaf> I will

Olaf Hartig: I will

15:17:43 <paolo_> q?

Paolo Missier: q?

15:17:43 <GK_> I intend to continue to help with proposals

Graham Klyne: I intend to continue to help with proposals

15:17:46 <paolo_> ack

Paolo Missier: ack

15:17:49 <tlebo> proposed: people self-select to provide proposals.

PROPOSED: people self-select to provide proposals.

15:17:53 <Yogesh> q+

Yogesh Simmhan: q+

15:17:56 <satya> volunteer

Satya Sahoo: volunteer

15:17:56 <Luc> I will point to the web protocol defined by sparql group as a way to access provenance

Luc Moreau: I will point to the web protocol defined by sparql group as a way to access provenance

15:18:00 <paolo_> q?

Paolo Missier: q?

15:18:03 <paolo_> q-

Paolo Missier: q-

15:18:04 <pgroth> ack paolo_

Paul Groth: ack paolo_

15:18:07 <pgroth> ack Yogesh

Paul Groth: ack Yogesh

15:18:29 <tlebo> []: please separate proposals into different sections based on who proposed them.

[]: please separate proposals into different sections based on who proposed them.

15:18:33 <Yogesh> q-

Yogesh Simmhan: q-

15:18:48 <SamCoppens> volunteer

Sam Coppens: volunteer

15:19:15 <olaf> q+

Olaf Hartig: q+

15:19:23 <pgroth> ack olaf

Paul Groth: ack olaf

15:19:49 <Luc> graham, why do you need a reference to the powder profile here? isn't it that <link/> is part of html and not POWDER?

Luc Moreau: graham, why do you need a reference to the powder profile here? isn't it that <link/> is part of html and not POWDER?

15:20:11 <tlebo> olaf: proposals first phase, THEN issues raised against proposal. what do issues mean? issues of proposals themselves or that are found when considering them.

Olaf Hartig: proposals first phase, THEN issues raised against proposal. what do issues mean? issues of proposals themselves or that are found when considering them.

15:20:21 <GK_> q+

Graham Klyne: q+

15:20:23 <tlebo> smiles: the former is intended.

Simon Miles: the former is intended.

15:20:24 <olaf> q-

Olaf Hartig: q-

15:20:52 <pgroth> ack GK_

Paul Groth: ack GK_

15:20:53 <GK_> q-

Graham Klyne: q-

15:21:03 <tlebo> smiles: we should distinguish between out of scope for F2F but sill within scope of prov-wg.

Simon Miles: we should distinguish between out of scope for F2F but sill within scope of prov-wg.

15:22:32 <tlebo> GK_: re POWDER. want to make distinction from access vs. determinign the URIs for access. not sure how to make that clear in current writeup sections.

Graham Klyne: re POWDER. want to make distinction from access vs. determinign the URIs for access. not sure how to make that clear in current writeup sections.

15:22:36 <Zakim> +[LC]

Zakim IRC Bot: +[LC]

15:22:52 <edsu> zakim, [LC] is edsu

Ed Summers: zakim, [LC] is edsu

15:22:52 <Zakim> +edsu; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +edsu; got it

15:23:27 <tlebo> provenance of document vs. its identity

provenance of document vs. its identity

15:23:54 <tlebo> topic: Plans for Connection Task Force until Face-to-face meeting

3. Plans for Connection Task Force until Face-to-face meeting

Summary: Eric presented the plans drafted with Kai for the Connection TF. A timetable still needs to be produced. Group members have volunteered to contribute to the task force.

<luc>Summary: Eric presented the plans drafted with Kai for the Connection TF. A timetable still needs to be produced. Group members have volunteered to contribute to the task force.
15:24:05 <pgroth> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/F2F1_Connection_Proposal

Paul Groth: http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/F2F1_Connection_Proposal

15:25:04 <Luc> yogesh and simon, could you add the timeline to the wiki page?

Luc Moreau: yogesh and simon, could you add the timeline to the wiki page?

15:25:35 <tlebo> ericstephan: for proposal, not timeline yet. Have initial proposed scope. Basing from incubator group; existing vocabularies. Domain-specific conventions need to be considered. 3) complementary concepts relating to provenance.

Eric Stephan: for proposal, not timeline yet. Have initial proposed scope. Basing from incubator group; existing vocabularies. Domain-specific conventions need to be considered. 3) complementary concepts relating to provenance.

15:25:53 <tlebo> ericstephan: e.g. visual analytics group interested in provenance.

Eric Stephan: e.g. visual analytics group interested in provenance.

15:26:25 <tlebo> ericstephan: considering scope; what to exclude/include.

Eric Stephan: considering scope; what to exclude/include.

15:26:42 <GK_> q+ to ask if there is a good example of a domain specific convention

Graham Klyne: q+ to ask if there is a good example of a domain specific convention

15:26:46 <Zakim> -jorn

Zakim IRC Bot: -jorn

15:26:49 <tlebo> ericstephan: Kai has example template to use when gathering connections.

Eric Stephan: Kai has example template to use when gathering connections.

15:27:14 <dgarijo> i think he refers to Kai

Daniel Garijo: i think he refers to Kai

15:27:15 <satya> @Eric - please clarify "complementary concepts relating to provenance"

Satya Sahoo: @Eric - please clarify "complementary concepts relating to provenance"

15:27:31 <Zakim> +??P5

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P5

15:27:40 <jorn> zakim, ??p5 is me

Jörn Hees: zakim, ??p5 is me

15:27:40 <Zakim> +jorn; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +jorn; got it

15:28:13 <satya> thanks!

Satya Sahoo: thanks!

15:28:19 <tlebo> ericstephan: w.r.t. data quality, uncertainty quantification. a lot of work in "knowledge provenance layer". -- what means by "complementary concepts"

Eric Stephan: w.r.t. data quality, uncertainty quantification. a lot of work in "knowledge provenance layer". -- what means by "complementary concepts"

15:28:23 <pgroth> ack GK_

Paul Groth: ack GK_

15:28:23 <Zakim> GK_, you wanted to ask if there is a good example of a domain specific convention

Zakim IRC Bot: GK_, you wanted to ask if there is a good example of a domain specific convention

15:28:34 <tlebo> GK_: examples for domain-specific conventions.

Graham Klyne: examples for domain-specific conventions.

15:29:09 <Yogesh> @Luc, F2F1 Access and Query Proposal plan has been posted to wiki

Yogesh Simmhan: @Luc, F2F1 Access and Query Proposal plan has been posted to wiki

15:29:29 <tlebo> ericstephan: currently trying to integrate disparate models with earth simulation, agriculture, power grid models. They want to capture and identify uncertainties from those results.

Eric Stephan: currently trying to integrate disparate models with earth simulation, agriculture, power grid models. They want to capture and identify uncertainties from those results.

15:29:42 <Luc> @Yogesh, thanks!

Luc Moreau: @Yogesh, thanks!

15:29:51 <Luc> q+

Luc Moreau: q+

15:29:51 <tlebo> ericstephan: this will need provenance to address the uncertainties.

Eric Stephan: this will need provenance to address the uncertainties.

15:30:07 <pgroth> ack Luc

Paul Groth: ack Luc

15:30:20 <pgroth> luc?

Paul Groth: luc?

15:30:32 <tlebo> luc: broken phone.

Luc Moreau: broken phone.

15:30:32 <Luc> it looks like you can't hear me, i'll type my comments

Luc Moreau: it looks like you can't hear me, i'll type my comments

15:31:03 <tlebo> pgroth: please add timeline soon for connection.

Paul Groth: please add timeline soon for connection.

15:31:07 <Luc> the scenario that Eric described looks more like an application, doesn't this belong to the last task force?

Luc Moreau: the scenario that Eric described looks more like an application, doesn't this belong to the last task force?

15:31:16 <ericstephan> okay

Eric Stephan: okay

15:31:29 <tlebo> pgroth: people should help with connection task force.

Paul Groth: people should help with connection task force.

15:31:37 <simoninireland> I'd be interested

Simon Dobson: I'd be interested

15:31:44 <Luc> For this task force, will we investigate opportunities for connecting with DC, Identity, Life Science, ....

Luc Moreau: For this task force, will we investigate opportunities for connecting with DC, Identity, Life Science, ....

15:31:45 <simoninireland> Sorry, keyboard malfunction :-)

Simon Dobson: Sorry, keyboard malfunction :-)

15:31:47 <ericstephan> Several people volunteered yesterday in email

Eric Stephan: Several people volunteered yesterday in email

15:31:50 <Lena> i am interested

Helena Deus: i am interested

15:32:02 <tlebo> pgroth: this is about connecting to existing provenance standards and domains and their use cases

Paul Groth: this is about connecting to existing provenance standards and domains and their use cases

15:32:04 <ericstephan> I believe Carl Reed?

Eric Stephan: I believe Carl Reed?

15:32:13 <Christine> Apologies. It is difficult for me to hear. But very happy to help progress this work.

Christine Runnegar: Apologies. It is difficult for me to hear. But very happy to help progress this work.

15:32:15 <edsu> i would be willing to try to help outreach w/ digital preservation community

Ed Summers: i would be willing to try to help outreach w/ digital preservation community

15:32:20 <ericstephan> Thank you

Eric Stephan: Thank you

15:32:23 <GK_> @luc @ericstephan I'm *guessing* that there's a reference here to provenence that's implicit in existing applications, and if there are conventions we can connect to.  But that's just my guess.

Graham Klyne: @luc @ericstephan I'm *guessing* that there's a reference here to provenence that's implicit in existing applications, and if there are conventions we can connect to. But that's just my guess.

15:32:26 <frew> very interested in connections to climate/earth science but will be offline for next ~3 weeks so can't help w/ F2F1

James Frew: very interested in connections to climate/earth science but will be offline for next ~3 weeks so can't help w/ F2F1

15:32:35 <tlebo> topic: Plans for Implementation and Test case Task Force until F2F1

4. Plans for Implementation and Test case Task Force until F2F1

Summary: Helena and Stephan presented their plan for the task force. The focus of the discussion was on the scope of this TF. Actual plans until F2F1 still need to be formulated. It was agreed that the document had just been released and more time was needed to reflect on it. Plans for F2F1 will be written during the week.

<luc>Summary: Helena and Stephan presented their plan for the task force.  The focus of the discussion was on the scope of this TF. Actual plans until F2F1 still need to be formulated. It was agreed that the document had just been released and more time was needed to reflect on it. Plans for F2F1 will be written during the week.
15:32:44 <Luc> @ericstephan, will you also write the timetable on the wiki?

Luc Moreau: @ericstephan, will you also write the timetable on the wiki?

15:32:47 <zednik> wiki page: http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/F2F1_Unit_Test_Proposal

Stephan Zednik: wiki page: http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/F2F1_Unit_Test_Proposal

15:33:16 <tlebo> lena: identified scope on wiki. listing series of deliverables.

Helena Deus: identified scope on wiki. listing series of deliverables.

15:33:30 <ericstephan> @Luc yes I will meet with Kai on the timeline and get this out asap

Eric Stephan: @Luc yes I will meet with Kai on the timeline and get this out asap

15:33:44 <tlebo> lena: engaging with stakeholders and connecting with other task forces. contacting those with provenance problems, so they can give overview and how it would be used.

Helena Deus: engaging with stakeholders and connecting with other task forces. contacting those with provenance problems, so they can give overview and how it would be used.

15:33:59 <Luc> q+

Luc Moreau: q+

15:34:28 <tlebo> GK_: wiki page indicates stakeholder-oriented. lower level test cases to help clarify details? e.g. RDF working group had small test cases.

Graham Klyne: wiki page indicates stakeholder-oriented. lower level test cases to help clarify details? e.g. RDF working group had small test cases.

15:34:44 <satya> @Lena/Stephan: would like to point to the use cases created by the Provenance XG, for example: http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/prov/wiki/Analysis_of_Disease_Outbreak_Scenario

Satya Sahoo: @Lena/Stephan: would like to point to the use cases created by the Provenance XG, for example: http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/prov/wiki/Analysis_of_Disease_Outbreak_Scenario

15:34:47 <dgarijo> +q

Daniel Garijo: +q

15:34:53 <tlebo> lena: develop use cases from interviewing stakeholders.

Helena Deus: develop use cases from interviewing stakeholders.

15:36:02 <tlebo> luc: to Helena, going to talk to stakeholders outside of working group or inside?

Luc Moreau: to Helena, going to talk to stakeholders outside of working group or inside?

15:36:32 <tlebo> lena:  Ideally outside. e.g. Stephan's Australia and Helena's. Invite them to present to us.

Helena Deus: Ideally outside. e.g. Stephan's Australia and Helena's. Invite them to present to us.

15:36:58 <tlebo> luc: remember those in working group. Would help to focus with them.

Luc Moreau: remember those in working group. Would help to focus with them.

15:37:22 <tlebo> luc: members of group interested in implementing standards.

Luc Moreau: members of group interested in implementing standards.

15:37:43 <jun> q+

Jun Zhao: q+

15:37:46 <tlebo> lena: by F2F, clarifying use cases and detailing them.

Helena Deus: by F2F, clarifying use cases and detailing them.

15:37:47 <smiles> q+

Simon Miles: q+

15:37:55 <Luc> q-

Luc Moreau: q-

15:37:59 <Zakim> -jorn

Zakim IRC Bot: -jorn

15:38:03 <dgarijo> http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/prov/wiki/Use_Cases#Original_Use_Cases_Proposed

Daniel Garijo: http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/prov/wiki/Use_Cases#Original_Use_Cases_Proposed

15:38:13 <Zakim> +??P2

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P2

15:38:16 <tlebo> dgarijo: in incubator group, 50 use cases. some of those can be reused.

Daniel Garijo: in incubator group, 50 use cases. some of those can be reused.

15:38:22 <jorn> zakim, ??p2 is me

Jörn Hees: zakim, ??p2 is me

15:38:22 <Zakim> +jorn; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +jorn; got it

15:38:29 <pgroth> q?

Paul Groth: q?

15:38:31 <tlebo> lena: started with those

Helena Deus: started with those

15:38:35 <pgroth> ack dgarijo

Paul Groth: ack dgarijo

15:38:46 <tlebo> dgarijo: please add link to those from the wiki page

Daniel Garijo: please add link to those from the wiki page

15:38:53 <pgroth> ack jun

Paul Groth: ack jun

15:39:08 <tlebo> action: use case wiki page point to the incubator use cases

ACTION: use case wiki page point to the incubator use cases

15:39:08 <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - use

Trackbot IRC Bot: Sorry, couldn't find user - use

15:39:57 <satya> +1 for Jun's point

Satya Sahoo: +1 for Jun's point

15:40:07 <dgarijo> yep, I agree too.

Daniel Garijo: yep, I agree too.

15:40:26 <tlebo> jun: worried about implementation vs. use cases - out of scope? 2) what to do with requirements? expand model based on use cases?

Jun Zhao: worried about implementation vs. use cases - out of scope? 2) what to do with requirements? expand model based on use cases?

15:41:02 <Luc> q+

Luc Moreau: q+

15:41:03 <tlebo> lena: idea is to help identify the requirements for the use cases and make sure it has a target audience.

Helena Deus: idea is to help identify the requirements for the use cases and make sure it has a target audience.

15:41:16 <pgroth> ack smiles

Paul Groth: ack smiles

15:41:21 <GK_> q+ to say but we are not (as a WG) creating a s/w implementation

Graham Klyne: q+ to say but we are not (as a WG) creating a s/w implementation

15:41:23 <tlebo> jun: suggest to restate the wiki page to reflect this.

Jun Zhao: suggest to restate the wiki page to reflect this.

15:41:56 <tlebo> smiles: objectives for F2F preparations?

Simon Miles: objectives for F2F preparations?

15:42:03 <dgarijo> @GK_ but we should at least provide some examples/guidelines if we want people to use the PIL

Daniel Garijo: @GK_ but we should at least provide some examples/guidelines if we want people to use the PIL

15:42:24 <tlebo> lena: identification of stakeholders both at F2F and outside.

Helena Deus: identification of stakeholders both at F2F and outside.

15:42:36 <GK_> @dgariji yes, no prob there, but wary of scope

Graham Klyne: @dgariji yes, no prob there, but wary of scope

15:42:45 <GK_> s/ware/wary/

Graham Klyne: s/ware/wary/ (warning: replacement failed)

15:42:54 <tlebo> zednik: still establishing scope for task force.

Stephan Zednik: still establishing scope for task force.

15:42:59 <pgroth> q?

Paul Groth: q?

15:43:07 <pgroth> ack Luc

Paul Groth: ack Luc

15:43:42 <tlebo> luc: concerned for amount of work. only 4 weeks to F2F.

Luc Moreau: concerned for amount of work. only 4 weeks to F2F.

15:43:48 <Zakim> + +1.937.708.aajj

Zakim IRC Bot: + +1.937.708.aajj

15:43:57 <tlebo> zednik: we are not doing work, but establishing scope of what TF will be doing.

Stephan Zednik: we are not doing work, but establishing scope of what TF will be doing.

15:44:54 <tlebo> lena: scope of TF

Helena Deus: scope of TF

15:45:03 <tlebo> luc: we need 2 independent implementations that interoperate.

Luc Moreau: we need 2 independent implementations that interoperate.

15:45:17 <tlebo> luc: we need to define what it means to interoperate.

Luc Moreau: we need to define what it means to interoperate.

15:45:53 <tlebo> luc: we need to find someone with a provenance problem willing to implement the standards.

Luc Moreau: we need to find someone with a provenance problem willing to implement the standards.

15:46:37 <tlebo> lena: TF will review the charter.

Helena Deus: TF will review the charter.

15:46:37 <SamCoppens> I am volunteer for reference impl

Sam Coppens: I am volunteer for reference impl

15:46:40 <GK_> q?

Graham Klyne: q?

15:47:51 <tlebo> lena: identification of stakeholders is primary objective for F2F.

Helena Deus: identification of stakeholders is primary objective for F2F.

15:48:18 <tlebo> luc: what kind of information to do want to obtain from stakeholders.

Luc Moreau: what kind of information to do want to obtain from stakeholders.

15:48:37 <Zakim> -??P1

Zakim IRC Bot: -??P1

15:48:58 <tlebo> pgroth: table to mailing list.

Paul Groth: table to mailing list.

15:49:10 <Luc> +1

Luc Moreau: +1

15:49:48 <dgarijo> I think it would be nice to try to model at least the news example with the current concepts.

Daniel Garijo: I think it would be nice to try to model at least the news example with the current concepts.

15:50:38 <tlebo> GK_: regarding wg's role in implementations and applications. That's not what's happening.

Graham Klyne: regarding wg's role in implementations and applications. That's not what's happening.

15:51:04 <tlebo> zednik: TF to coordinate implementation, but who would be DOING it?

Stephan Zednik: TF to coordinate implementation, but who would be DOING it?

15:51:09 <paolo_> @GK I think this is clear enough from the charter?

Paolo Missier: @GK I think this is clear enough from the charter?

15:51:19 <tlebo> pgroth: we find groups that are willing to adopt our standard - we don't do it ourselves.

Paul Groth: we find groups that are willing to adopt our standard - we don't do it ourselves.

15:51:40 <tlebo> zednik: we should provide documentation that allows another group to implement the recommendation.

Stephan Zednik: we should provide documentation that allows another group to implement the recommendation.

15:51:42 <dgarijo> +1 to the portotypes.

Daniel Garijo: +1 to the portotypes.

15:51:51 <GK_> @paolo, indeed.  http://www.w3.org/2011/01/prov-wg-charter makes no reference to ref implementation.

Graham Klyne: @paolo, indeed. http://www.w3.org/2011/01/prov-wg-charter makes no reference to ref implementation.

15:52:01 <tlebo> pgroth: more than one organization develops our recommendations.

Paul Groth: more than one organization develops our recommendations.

15:52:10 <estephan> it would seem like there is a relationship between the implementation and connection task force that we should explore at the f2f

Eric Stephan: it would seem like there is a relationship between the implementation and connection task force that we should explore at the f2f

15:52:11 <paolo_> q+

Paolo Missier: q+

15:52:19 <GK_> q-

Graham Klyne: q-

15:52:22 <pgroth> ack GK_

Paul Groth: ack GK_

15:52:25 <pgroth> ack paolo_

Paul Groth: ack paolo_

15:52:37 <satya> @GK - for the proposal of the WG to be a W3C recommendation, we need couple of example/prototype implementations

Satya Sahoo: @GK - for the proposal of the WG to be a W3C recommendation, we need couple of example/prototype implementations

15:53:03 <tlebo> paolo_: for modeling language vs. tooling. Implementation is not in scope, but tools need to support the new model.

Paolo Missier: for modeling language vs. tooling. Implementation is not in scope, but tools need to support the new model.

15:53:17 <GK_> @satya - sure we do, but the *implementation* itself isn't from the WG.  Convincing toolmakers is.

Graham Klyne: @satya - sure we do, but the *implementation* itself isn't from the WG. Convincing toolmakers is.

15:53:31 <paolo_> q-

Paolo Missier: q-

15:53:36 <Zakim> -jorn

Zakim IRC Bot: -jorn

15:53:43 <GK_> The point is to prove that NON-WG-MEMBERS can implement it.

Graham Klyne: The point is to prove that NON-WG-MEMBERS can implement it.

15:53:49 <tlebo> pgroth: scope of wg is not to create implementation, but to convince others to adopt it.

Paul Groth: scope of wg is not to create implementation, but to convince others to adopt it.

15:53:57 <Zakim> +??P1

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P1

15:54:01 <jorn> zakim, ??p1 is me

Jörn Hees: zakim, ??p1 is me

15:54:01 <Zakim> +jorn; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +jorn; got it

15:54:10 <satya> @GK - agree, I think Paolo put it precisely - example tools

Satya Sahoo: @GK - agree, I think Paolo put it precisely - example tools

<luc> TOPIC: Model Task Force

5. Model Task Force

Summary: Three proposals were put forward in the agenda. The first one was approved. We began discussions on the second, but didn't have time to reach consensus. The third one was left for next week.

<luc>Summary: Three proposals were put forward in the agenda. The first one was approved. We began discussions on the second, but didn't have time to reach consensus.  The third one was left for next week.
15:54:17 <pgroth> proposed: 1. there is a distinction between process execution and process specification/definition; 2. process specification/definition is referred to as recipe in the charter and is out of sope for this WG; 3. terminology (for process specification/definition, process execution, recipe) needs to be agreed on, if appropriate

PROPOSED: 1. there is a distinction between process execution and process specification/definition; 2. process specification/definition is referred to as recipe in the charter and is out of sope for this WG; 3. terminology (for process specification/definition, process execution, recipe) needs to be agreed on, if appropriate

15:54:18 <pgroth> there is a distinction between process execution and process specification/definition

Paul Groth: there is a distinction between process execution and process specification/definition

15:54:18 <pgroth> process specification/definition is referred to as recipe in the charter and is out of sope for this WG

Paul Groth: process specification/definition is referred to as recipe in the charter and is out of sope for this WG

15:54:18 <pgroth> terminology (for process specification/definition, process execution, recipe) needs to be agreed on, if appropriate

Paul Groth: terminology (for process specification/definition, process execution, recipe) needs to be agreed on, if appropriate

15:54:29 <tlebo> pgroth: Concepts discussions - process execution and process specification.

Paul Groth: Concepts discussions - process execution and process specification.

15:54:46 <khalidbelhajjame> How easy to convince people/organization that are non members of the WG to implement a model that they did not specify?

Khalid Belhajjame: How easy to convince people/organization that are non members of the WG to implement a model that they did not specify?

15:55:03 <tlebo> pgroth: process specification equates to "recipe" in prov-xg. we are not creating a specification language.

Paul Groth: process specification equates to "recipe" in prov-xg. we are not creating a specification language.

15:55:05 <satya> q+

Satya Sahoo: q+

15:55:18 <tlebo> pgroth: creating process specification language is out of scope.

Paul Groth: creating process specification language is out of scope.

15:55:21 <dgarijo> @khalid: true

Daniel Garijo: @khalid: true

15:55:44 <satya> q-

Satya Sahoo: q-

15:55:57 <satya> +1

Satya Sahoo: +1

15:55:57 <smiles> +1

Simon Miles: +1

15:55:58 <JamesMyers> +1

James Myers: +1

15:55:58 <jcheney> +1

James Cheney: +1

15:55:58 <khalidbelhajjame> +1

Khalid Belhajjame: +1

15:55:59 <dgarijo> +1

Daniel Garijo: +1

15:55:59 <Yogesh> +1

Yogesh Simmhan: +1

15:56:00 <GK_> +1 agree with distinction

Graham Klyne: +1 agree with distinction

15:56:00 <jun> +1

Jun Zhao: +1

15:56:00 <Edoardo> +1

Edoardo Pignotti: +1

15:56:00 <olaf> +1

Olaf Hartig: +1

15:56:01 <estephan> +1

Eric Stephan: +1

15:56:01 <frew> +1

James Frew: +1

15:56:01 <dcorsar> +1

David Corsar: +1

15:56:03 <paolo_> +1

Paolo Missier: +1

15:56:06 <zednik> +1

Stephan Zednik: +1

15:56:07 <tlebo> satya: we need to distinguish, but we are not defining what is actually used.

Satya Sahoo: we need to distinguish, but we are not defining what is actually used.

15:56:08 <tlebo> +1

+1

15:56:09 <GK_> -1 link to specific language

Graham Klyne: -1 link to specific language

15:56:11 <tlebo> (group can link to them, but are not defining them)

(group can link to them, but are not defining them)

15:56:12 <jcheney> and we could point to other such languages (XProc, BPEL, ...)

James Cheney: and we could point to other such languages (XProc, BPEL, ...)

15:56:15 <tfrancart> +1

Thomas Francart: +1

15:56:24 <SamCoppens> +1

Sam Coppens: +1

15:56:29 <tlebo> action: add xproc and BPEL to wiki page

ACTION: add xproc and BPEL to wiki page

15:56:29 <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - add

Trackbot IRC Bot: Sorry, couldn't find user - add

15:56:31 <satya> @James - agree

Satya Sahoo: @James - agree

15:56:41 <VinhNguyen> +1

Vinh Nguyen: +1

15:57:02 <tlebo> GK_: recognizing that there may be languages and they can be implemented

Graham Klyne: recognizing that there may be languages and they can be implemented

15:57:17 <JamesMyers> the only model question I have is whether we need process which has executions and a recipe or just the link between process execution and process recipe (w/o an independent thing called process)

James Myers: the only model question I have is whether we need process which has executions and a recipe or just the link between process execution and process recipe (w/o an independent thing called process)

15:57:18 <jcheney> "including, but not limited to language 1, language 2, language 3, ..."

James Cheney: "including, but not limited to language 1, language 2, language 3, ..."

15:57:21 <Lena> +1

Helena Deus: +1

15:57:37 <tlebo> accepted: 1. there is a distinction between process execution and process specification/definition; 2. process specification/definition is referred to as recipe in the charter and is out of sope for this WG; 3. terminology (for process specification/definition, process execution, recipe) needs to be agreed on, if appropriate

RESOLVED: 1. there is a distinction between process execution and process specification/definition; 2. process specification/definition is referred to as recipe in the charter and is out of sope for this WG; 3. terminology (for process specification/definition, process execution, recipe) needs to be agreed on, if appropriate

15:57:45 <tlebo> pgroth: Proposal 2: process execution

Paul Groth: Proposal 2: process execution

15:57:48 <pgroth> PROPOSED: A process execution has a duration, i.e. it spans a time interval

PROPOSED: A process execution has a duration, i.e. it spans a time interval

15:57:55 <tlebo> pgroth: process execution has time interval.

Paul Groth: process execution has time interval.

15:57:58 <satya> +1

Satya Sahoo: +1

15:57:59 <GK_> q+ to ask if the past constraint is necessary

Graham Klyne: q+ to ask if the past constraint is necessary

15:58:04 <dgarijo> +1

Daniel Garijo: +1

15:58:17 <satya> q+

Satya Sahoo: q+

15:58:18 <Christine> Apologies all. I will need to leave the call.

Christine Runnegar: Apologies all. I will need to leave the call.

15:58:21 <Luc> q+

Luc Moreau: q+

15:58:25 <Zakim> -??P6

Zakim IRC Bot: -??P6

15:58:25 <tlebo> GK_: does anything break if we don't require start of execution to be in past?

Graham Klyne: does anything break if we don't require start of execution to be in past?

15:59:05 <tlebo> satya: it is important that process has started in past. provenance metadata is w.r.t history. it is a defining criteria for provenance.

Satya Sahoo: it is important that process has started in past. provenance metadata is w.r.t history. it is a defining criteria for provenance.

15:59:08 <smiles> q+

Simon Miles: q+

15:59:13 <satya> q-

Satya Sahoo: q-

15:59:14 <pgroth> ack GK_

Paul Groth: ack GK_

15:59:15 <Zakim> GK_, you wanted to ask if the past constraint is necessary

Zakim IRC Bot: GK_, you wanted to ask if the past constraint is necessary

15:59:16 <GK_> q-

Graham Klyne: q-

15:59:20 <pgroth> ack Luc

Paul Groth: ack Luc

15:59:28 <paolo_> @GK provenance is based on observations... so yes, the process exec should have started before we can observe what it does

Paolo Missier: @GK provenance is based on observations... so yes, the process exec should have started before we can observe what it does

15:59:39 <tlebo> luc: +1 satya, we are not defining what will happen in future or predicting. not about specifying things in future. describing what has happened in the past.

Luc Moreau: +1 satya, we are not defining what will happen in future or predicting. not about specifying things in future. describing what has happened in the past.

15:59:41 <pgroth> ack smiles

Paul Groth: ack smiles

15:59:45 <JamesMyers> anticipated provenance is workflow :-)

James Myers: anticipated provenance is workflow :-)

16:00:08 <GK_> (I'm trying to think of examples ... best I can do is fiction)

Graham Klyne: (I'm trying to think of examples ... best I can do is fiction)

16:00:20 <GK_> What Simon said

Graham Klyne: What Simon said

16:00:35 <khalidbelhajjame> +q

Khalid Belhajjame: +q

16:00:44 <pgroth> proposed: process execution has a duration and A process execution has either completed (occurred in the past) or is occurring in present (partially complete). In other words, the start of a process execution is always in the past.

PROPOSED: process execution has a duration and A process execution has either completed (occurred in the past) or is occurring in present (partially complete). In other words, the start of a process execution is always in the past.

16:00:45 <paolo_> q+

Paolo Missier: q+

16:00:45 <JamesMyers> has a duration or can have a duration?

James Myers: has a duration or can have a duration?

16:00:57 <paolo_> duration?

Paolo Missier: duration?

16:01:00 <Luc> q+

Luc Moreau: q+

16:01:05 <tlebo> proposed: process execution has a duration and is in the past.

PROPOSED: process execution has a duration and is in the past.

16:01:17 <Zakim> -GK_

Zakim IRC Bot: -GK_

16:01:42 <pgroth> ack khalidbelhajjame

Paul Groth: ack khalidbelhajjame

16:01:47 <pgroth> ack paolo_

Paul Groth: ack paolo_

16:01:47 <JamesMyers> in OPM, time was 'optional'...

James Myers: in OPM, time was 'optional'...

16:01:58 <zednik> q+

Stephan Zednik: q+

16:02:00 <satya> @khalid - the definition of process incorporates time dimension

Satya Sahoo: @khalid - the definition of process incorporates time dimension

16:02:08 <smiles> 'non-instantaneous'?

Simon Miles: 'non-instantaneous'?

16:02:08 <tlebo> paolo_: starting time is enough to talk about provenance. no more is needed. duration may be ongoing. not necessary to get into it.

Paolo Missier: starting time is enough to talk about provenance. no more is needed. duration may be ongoing. not necessary to get into it.

16:02:09 <paolo_> q-

Paolo Missier: q-

16:02:30 <pgroth> ack Luc

Paul Groth: ack Luc

16:03:39 <khalidbelhajjame> +q

Khalid Belhajjame: +q

16:03:45 <paolo_> q+

Paolo Missier: q+

16:03:51 <tlebo> luc: disagrees with paolo.  We are creating a modeling language to help us describe what has happening in the past. We _could_ describe everything as being instantaneous. Processes do not necessarily have to a duration; they could be instantaneous. Instead, what we say is there is a start time and end time. Also, we should not merge proposals.

Luc Moreau: disagrees with paolo. We are creating a modeling language to help us describe what has happening in the past. We _could_ describe everything as being instantaneous. Processes do not necessarily have to a duration; they could be instantaneous. Instead, what we say is there is a start time and end time. Also, we should not merge proposals.

16:04:00 <pgroth> ack zednik

Paul Groth: ack zednik

16:04:13 <tlebo> zednik: agrees, but is time a required property or optional?

Stephan Zednik: agrees, but is time a required property or optional?

16:04:32 <tlebo> pgroth: it has a duration, not that you have to specify it. (open world?)

Paul Groth: it has a duration, not that you have to specify it. (open world?)

16:04:41 <satya> @Stephan - without time dimension, process cannot be distinguished from notion of resource

Satya Sahoo: @Stephan - without time dimension, process cannot be distinguished from notion of resource

16:04:43 <pgroth> ack khalidbelhajjame

Paul Groth: ack khalidbelhajjame

16:05:04 <Luc> how long did it last?

Luc Moreau: how long did it last?

16:05:18 <Zakim> -smiles

Zakim IRC Bot: -smiles

16:05:23 <pgroth> ack paolo_

Paul Groth: ack paolo_

16:05:28 <zednik> @Satya - not sure what you mean, perhaps follow-up in email

Stephan Zednik: @Satya - not sure what you mean, perhaps follow-up in email

16:05:51 <JamesMyers> OPM considered time stamps as a way to verify/challenge the processing claims (evidence that you should trust the provenance)

James Myers: OPM considered time stamps as a way to verify/challenge the processing claims (evidence that you should trust the provenance)

16:06:06 <pgroth> proposed: A process execution has a duration, i.e. it spans a time interval

PROPOSED: A process execution has a duration, i.e. it spans a time interval

16:06:10 <tlebo> paolo_: useful to have start time so can reason about events. end time is less important.

Paolo Missier: useful to have start time so can reason about events. end time is less important.

16:06:13 <dgarijo> +1

Daniel Garijo: +1

16:06:14 <satya> +1

Satya Sahoo: +1

16:06:14 <JamesMyers> +1

James Myers: +1

16:06:16 <frew> +1

James Frew: +1

16:06:17 <paolo_> q-

Paolo Missier: q-

16:06:17 <StephenCresswell> +1

Stephen Cresswell: +1

16:06:17 <zednik> +1

Stephan Zednik: +1

16:06:18 <paolo_> +1

Paolo Missier: +1

16:06:20 <jcheney> +1

James Cheney: +1

16:06:21 <olaf> +1 to duration

Olaf Hartig: +1 to duration

16:06:21 <SamCoppens> +1

Sam Coppens: +1

16:06:24 <dcorsar> +1

David Corsar: +1

16:06:25 <estephan> +1

Eric Stephan: +1

16:06:25 <Edoardo> +1

Edoardo Pignotti: +1

16:06:29 <jun> 0

Jun Zhao: 0

16:06:33 <Yogesh> +1

Yogesh Simmhan: +1

16:06:34 <khalidbelhajjame> 0

Khalid Belhajjame: 0

16:06:37 <jorn> +1 even though duration can be incredibly short

Jörn Hees: +1 even though duration can be incredibly short

16:06:37 <Lena> -1 to making duration a requirement

Helena Deus: -1 to making duration a requirement

16:06:39 <tlebo> 0

0

16:06:58 <paolo_> it's not that end time is less important, rather that process executions may not have a known end time

Paolo Missier: it's not that end time is less important, rather that process executions may not have a known end time

16:06:59 <zednik> -1 to make duration a requirement

Stephan Zednik: -1 to make duration a requirement

16:07:27 <estephan> agreed with Stephan

Eric Stephan: agreed with Stephan

16:07:28 <tlebo> (open world can help us here, no?)

(open world can help us here, no?)

16:07:41 <zednik> @tlebo - agreed

Stephan Zednik: @tlebo - agreed

16:07:43 <JamesMyers> process executions are not constrained to be instantaneous...

James Myers: process executions are not constrained to be instantaneous...

16:07:45 <paolo_> "process executions have a temporal characterisation" sounds trivially true...

Paolo Missier: "process executions have a temporal characterisation" sounds trivially true...

16:07:59 <satya> q+

Satya Sahoo: q+

16:08:20 <tlebo> pgroth: we need to finish this up on mailing list.

Paul Groth: we need to finish this up on mailing list.

16:08:49 <tlebo> satya: philosophy. execution occurs over time - essential. can be instantaneous or over time (depending on granularity).

Satya Sahoo: philosophy. execution occurs over time - essential. can be instantaneous or over time (depending on granularity).

16:08:57 <tlebo> satya: does not need to be explicitly noted, but is essential aspect.

Satya Sahoo: does not need to be explicitly noted, but is essential aspect.

16:08:58 <satya> q-

Satya Sahoo: q-

16:09:24 <Zakim> -jorn

Zakim IRC Bot: -jorn

16:09:24 <tlebo> pgroth: group to finish up process execution.

Paul Groth: group to finish up process execution.

16:09:31 <estephan> bye

Eric Stephan: bye

16:09:31 <Zakim> - +1.216.368.aagg

Zakim IRC Bot: - +1.216.368.aagg

16:09:32 <Zakim> -paolo_

Zakim IRC Bot: -paolo_

16:09:33 <Zakim> -edsu

Zakim IRC Bot: -edsu

16:09:34 <Zakim> -khalidbelhajjame

Zakim IRC Bot: -khalidbelhajjame

16:09:34 <Zakim> -Yogesh

Zakim IRC Bot: -Yogesh

16:09:34 <tlebo> SCRIBE HELP

SCRIBE HELP

16:09:35 <Zakim> -dgarijo

Zakim IRC Bot: -dgarijo

16:09:36 <Zakim> -jcheney

Zakim IRC Bot: -jcheney

16:09:36 <Zakim> - +1.509.554.aabb

Zakim IRC Bot: - +1.509.554.aabb

16:09:38 <Zakim> -[IPcaller]

Zakim IRC Bot: -[IPcaller]

16:09:40 <Zakim> -olaf

Zakim IRC Bot: -olaf

16:09:42 <Zakim> - +1.937.708.aajj

Zakim IRC Bot: - +1.937.708.aajj

16:09:44 <Zakim> -SamCoppens

Zakim IRC Bot: -SamCoppens

16:09:46 <Zakim> -[IPcaller.a]

Zakim IRC Bot: -[IPcaller.a]

16:09:48 <Zakim> - +1.518.276.aahh

Zakim IRC Bot: - +1.518.276.aahh

16:09:50 <Zakim> -??P20

Zakim IRC Bot: -??P20

16:09:52 <Zakim> +??P0

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P0

16:09:52 <tlebo> rrsagent, set log public

rrsagent, set log public

16:09:54 <Zakim> - +1.518.633.aaee

Zakim IRC Bot: - +1.518.633.aaee

16:09:56 <Zakim> - +1.832.386.aadd

Zakim IRC Bot: - +1.832.386.aadd

16:09:58 <Zakim> -??P11

Zakim IRC Bot: -??P11

16:09:58 <tlebo> rrsagent, draft minutes

rrsagent, draft minutes

16:09:58 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/06/09-prov-minutes.html tlebo

RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/06/09-prov-minutes.html tlebo

16:10:00 <Zakim> -??P36

Zakim IRC Bot: -??P36

16:10:02 <Zakim> -Luc

Zakim IRC Bot: -Luc

16:10:04 <Zakim> -??P0

Zakim IRC Bot: -??P0

16:10:12 <pgroth> Regrets: Yolanda Gil, Paulo Pinheiro da Silva, Kai Eckert, Carl Reed
16:10:53 <tlebo> trackbot, end telcon

trackbot, end telcon

16:10:53 <trackbot> Zakim, list attendees

Trackbot IRC Bot: Zakim, list attendees

16:10:53 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been Luc, pgroth, jorn, [IPcaller], +1.315.723.aaaa, tlebo, +1.509.554.aabb, dgarijo, GK_, +49.302.093.aacc, olaf, smiles, +1.832.386.aadd,

Zakim IRC Bot: As of this point the attendees have been Luc, pgroth, jorn, [IPcaller], +1.315.723.aaaa, tlebo, +1.509.554.aabb, dgarijo, GK_, +49.302.093.aacc, olaf, smiles, +1.832.386.aadd,

16:10:54 <trackbot> RRSAgent, please draft minutes

Trackbot IRC Bot: RRSAgent, please draft minutes

16:10:54 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/06/09-prov-minutes.html trackbot

RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/06/09-prov-minutes.html trackbot

16:10:55 <trackbot> RRSAgent, bye

Trackbot IRC Bot: RRSAgent, bye

16:10:55 <RRSAgent> I see 3 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2011/06/09-prov-actions.rdf :

RRSAgent IRC Bot: I see 3 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2011/06/09-prov-actions.rdf :

16:10:57 <Zakim> ... jcheney, +1.518.633.aaee, +1.216.368.aagg, SamCoppens, +1.518.276.aahh, +1.540.449.aaii, paolo_, Yogesh, khalidbelhajjame, edsu, +1.937.708.aajj

Zakim IRC Bot: ... jcheney, +1.518.633.aaee, +1.216.368.aagg, SamCoppens, +1.518.276.aahh, +1.540.449.aaii, paolo_, Yogesh, khalidbelhajjame, edsu, +1.937.708.aajj

16:11:09 <Zakim> -tlebo

Zakim IRC Bot: -tlebo

16:11:10 <Zakim> -pgroth

Zakim IRC Bot: -pgroth

16:11:10 <Zakim> SW_(PROV)11:00AM has ended

Zakim IRC Bot: SW_(PROV)11:00AM has ended



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