Social Breakout TPAC 2012

31 Oct 2012

See also: IRC log


Melvin, Carvalho, Steven_Pemberton, FabGandon
Wendy Seltzer
abasset, AnnBassetti


<npdoty_> scribenick: abasset

<sandro> Nick_Doty, W3C, Privacy

<wseltzer_screen> npdoty: privacy in online social networking

<wseltzer_screen> dan_romascanu: Avaya. social on the web platform, business


<wseltzer_screen> Vivien_Conway: web accessibility, social

Vivian Conway, Aus .. how can social be more accessible

<dan_romascanu> a few speakers interested in connection between social and privacy

<tantek> hello, I'm Tantek Çelik, of Mozilla, and particularly interested in empowering individuals to own and control their identity and data on the social web. See: http://indiewebcamp.com/

<dan_romascanu> Dan Romascanu - AVAYA, interested in the connection between social, individuals using social Web over the open platform, how they connect and be useful to businesses

<sandro> Sandro_Hawke: W3C, Semantic Web, interested in decentralized multiuser software -- making social apps without having to build your own critical mass, or relying on someone else's

<jfmoy> Hello, I am Jean-Francois Moy, of France Telecom (London, United Kingdom), and I am particularly interested in knowing what a network carrier/telecommunication operator can bring to the social web, and how users can empower to have better control over their private life on the Internet.

<trueg> Sebastian Trueg (OpenLink Software) - insight on current state of the Social Web Standardization Process and its relation to Linked Data

<npdoty_> I count over 40 of us here

<christine_> Chirstine Runnegar, Internet Society, co-chair Privacy Interest Group (PING)

<shh> Good foresight with the room assignment Tantek

<tantek> shh, had a feeling this topic might be popular. ;)

<bblfish> Henry Story http://bblfish.net working on http://webid.info/

<dan_romascanu> back in Sophia we identified identity as the key issue to be solved in a standardized manner in order to make progress on social web

<kunio> Kunio Numabe , Fuji Televison Network, Japan

<bblfish> thanks dan :-)

<tantek> dan_romascanu - isn't identity a solved problem? I have my URL identity: http://tantek.com/ :)

<Ryladog> Working with WAI and Indie UI, and interested in ensuring accessible social networks and media

<Steven> Steven Pemberton, CWI Amsterdam, chair of XForms, once chair of HTML WG; interested in making social web less walled garden, and more real web. http://homepages.cwi.nl/~steven/vandf/2008.03-website.html

<bblfish> IT is solved for those in the know Tatek

<bblfish> here is my id http://bblfish.net/people/card/henry#me

<FabGandon> Fabien Gandon, in charge of Wimmics Lab at Inria, http://wimmics.inria.fr interested in reconciling social semantics and formal semantics in web applications.

<tantek> bblfish: "Not Found // The requested URL /people/card/henry was not found on this server."

<npdoty_> bblfish, I get a 404 there

<Yanagiuchi> Keiji Yanagiuchi, Tokyo Broadcasting System Television, Japan

<Ryladog> Ryladog is Katie Haritos-Shea

<bblfish> ah sorry

<bblfish> http://bblfish.net/people/henry/card#me type :-)

<Takahiro> Takahiro Sakai from WOWOW in Japan

<sangrae> sangrae cho from ETRI, interested in social web with related to identity management

<jfmoy> tantek: More and more people use URL pointing to their social network profile such as linked in and co.

<tantek> bblfish - my browser doesn't understand that content-type (text/turtle) and asks me to download it.

<jin> Seung-Hun Jin from ETRI in Korea, and interested in identity management in connected world

<Ruinan> Ruinan Sun, Huawei, we have interesting in mobile social WEB related topics.

<npdoty_> proposed: glowing NFC chip with identity information that would automatically make IRC introductions

<bblfish> yes, Tantek I have a shorter version here: http://bblfish.net/#hjs

<sandro> +1 steve holbrook. it'd be nice to have some social standard better than 1988's IRC.

<tantek> jfmoy - sure, you can sharecrop your identity on some social network silo, or you can own your own domain and link to your other profiles with rel="me" to join them together.

<Steven> Need a better browser, Tantek? :-)

<bblfish> that one uses RDFa to mark me up

<SteveS> Hello, I'm Steve Speicher with IBM and Linked Data Platform WG, interested in social web as key use case of http://LinkedDataPlatform.org

<JohnS> John S Lee - Interest, Mobile/pervasive aspects of social web and distributed and ad hoc creation of social web.

<ArnaudLH> Arnaud Le Hors, IBM, chair of the LDP WG, interested in figuring out what role Linked Data might play in the social web space

<wei> Wei Wu, RITT, I'm interested in trusted web infrastructure and cross-platform technologies.

<melvster> Hello, I'm Melvin Carvalho, I'm with the W3C Read Write Web Community Group, I'm interested in using standards to read and write in the social web, my id on the Web is http://melvincarvalho.com/#me

<jfmoy> tantek: I do agree that having a domain name is an excellent web identity. However it is not as accessible as a social network platform (which is unfortunately a silo.

<tantek> Steven - my browser does a decent job at browsing HTML :)

Ann Bassetti: at Boeing we have a large internal social network which we are using for expertise location, sharing of ideas, improved collaboration

<Steven> And that's only the first of its problems, eh Tantek?

<vivienne> I am Vivienne Conway in Western Australia. My interests are how social media can be made more accessible for people with disabilities.

<tantek> Steven, I see HTML as a solution, not a problem :)

<develD> Hey, i am Norman Richter from the univerity of Halle / Leipzig, Germany. I'm doing resarch on webid, web access control, pubsubhubbub. I'm still a student and planning to start with my final thesis on this subject within the next weeks/months. It's about delivering Linked Data over a PubHub with WebAccessControl / ACL to subscribers who should authentify with webid.

*wishes shh would put his comment into the record, rather than as a "/me" aside

<Steven> And I see freedom choice as a positive value :-)

<melvster> tantek: you might want to look at the tabulator extension which allows browsing turtle ... https://github.com/linkeddata/tabulator ... bblfish you can also use the mashlib library on your site to display turtle for those browsers that cant read it

<tantek> jfmoy - I agree that we need to make acquiring a domain name and setting up an identity on the social web much easier.

<tantek> that's one of the goals of the indiewebcamp.com community.

<tantek> we've started documenting some approaches here: http://indiewebcamp.com/Getting_Started

Wendy: typed many of peoples' ideas into wiki

<npdoty_> I'm also curious about what is necessary to lower the bar on getting your own domain name / email address / etc.

Wendy: also seeking to figure out how W3C could or should contribute in social area

<jfmoy> tantek: Acquisition, and building a website that reflects properly your identity as well. Also, if you have a common name, it can be tricky to buy an easy to remember domain name.

<jfuller> Jim Fuller - Senior Engineer MarkLogic - interested in latest definition of 'social web', mature stds ... interested in seeing where things are going

Wendy: are there standards that are lacking?

<tantek> btw - there is a semi-persistent discussion on owning your own domain / data / identity in irc:///irc.freenode.net/indiewebcamp in case you want to join/lurk even after this suession

<npdoty_> ... so +1 for indieweb, I want to know what I can do to get my non-techie friends doing it too

<tantek> npdoty_ - agreed with getting non-techie friends on the indieweb. what a lot of us "techie" folks have discovered is that even for us it is non-trivial, and current solutions don't solve the problems we want solved.

<tantek> so we're first trying to solve them for ourselves, self-dogfooding as it were

<tantek> and then generalizing to more people

<jfmoy> tantek: I see that you advise people to create a blog on wordpress/tumblr and link it to their domain name. Good introduction I think.


What are we trying to do with social?

<tantek> jfmoy - it's a start, not ideal, but easier than setting up a CMS.

<npdoty_> tantek, yeah, absolutely, switching to an email address on my own domain has been non-trivial, so I'm not sure I can ask my friends to try it yet

<SteveH_> I just logged in from my laptop so I can type better. I'm also on as "shh" on my iPad.

<tantek> re: What are we trying to do with social [on the web]? A: 1. own your own identity on the web, 2. own your own data on the web, 3. help others do 1 & 2.

<SteveH_> @Steven, I agree re: on the record. Reintroducing myself again.

<sandro> sb: key thing is we are deciding who we want to talk to, not the whole web

<SteveH_> I'm Steve Holbrook, W3C AB, IBM, I'm interested in a Freedom of Choice (a.k.a. *not* walled garden) approach to social---implying open standards and interoperable implementations, especially for the enterprise.

<ArnaudLH> ldp= linked data platform

<tantek> curious how many people here have their own (domain) identity on the web.

<sandro> betehess: identity, a URI, is important for access control, etc.

Vivienne: reads that people are having problems with accessbility of Facebook, Twitter, LinkedIn ...

<inserted> scribenick: AnnBassetti

<tantek> is this just the javascript apps are not accessible problem?

<sandro> seems like it.

<bblfish> so to summarise what I said ( forgot irc : in order ot have a social web ( which Steve Holbrook spoke about ) where more resources are made interactable ( eg, writeable by larger groups of trusted members ) one needs global identity, access controls and semantics to allow interaction on the web.

<tantek> that is orthogonal to social

<npdoty_> I'm also curious about that, it seems like a Twitter feed should be exactly the kind of thing that a screen-reader could handle, short snippets of text

Steven: need a set of standards that define a 'non-walled garden' that is the social web

<tantek> npdoty_ - it's called m.twitter.com. next!

<npdoty_> wseltzer: who is waiting to build something if only there were a standard?

Dave Rogers: suggests that Twitter has also given more access to disabled people

SteveH: the market leaders (e.g., Facebook, Twitter, LinkedIn) are not in the room here ... they do not seem motivated to open their tools up

<sandro> wondering how that compares to eg OpenSocial

<npdoty_> SteveH: a common JavaScript API to navigate a social network might be a way to start

<tantek> is anyone still working on OpenSocial?

<ArnaudLH> IBM is

Dan Romascanu: agrees with SteveH's point; observes we had similar discussion at W3C AC meeting in Sophia, May 2012

<bblfish> the IETF is doing work on system for cross domain identity management SCIM IETF

<vivienne> My comments regarding accessibility of social media are not that it isn't helping people with disabilities participate, but that there are many people with disabilities are still not able to use these applications - like Facebook, Twitter, LinkedIn etc. I think they can do so much better.

<dan_romascanu> the IETF SCIM WG - http://datatracker.ietf.org/wg/scim/

<tantek> btw, speaking of social silos like Twitter, Linkedin, etc., plenty of such social sites *do* support open standards, such as hCard for marking up people: http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard-supporting-user-profiles

DavidSinger: does not like when an online content resource (e.g., newspaper) makes you sign in with your Facebook / etc identity

<sandro> dsinger: websites that need your fb identity to be used, and which have social share buttons

+1 from me on that

<Zakim> tantek, you wanted to say standards come from things people build, not vice versa.

<dan_romascanu> my other point is that we should relate to social networking platform vendors not only as users but also as corporate customers via other business relations

Tantek: experience is that people should implement first, and THEN make standards (rather than to try to define the standards first)

<Steven> LinkedIn are not even a member

<npdoty_> several hands on people who are actively building something for social, but tantek suggests we need more to get this moving

<tantek> is disappointed in the lack of implementers of social interactivity on their websites would would be interested in interoperability.

<tantek> I question the "get industry leaders in the room" methodology.

<tantek> email didn't get opened up / successful / distributed because AOL was in the room.

JeffJaffe: W3C kind of stuck on issue of trying to get the big social vendors 'in the room'

<sandro> +1 Jeff: maybe folks can get their companies to encourage the Social Network providers to come a W3C workshop on interoperability....

<tantek> the BigCo social networks have no incentives to work on this

<sandro> avaya, ibm, boeing

<tantek> we have to build it inspite

<tantek> of

<Steven> Hold the workshop, they will come; they won't dare miss it.

<sandro> alex: decouple data from service

<bblfish> Alex is speaking about ldp Linked Data Platform

<bblfish> http://www.w3.org/2012/ldp/hg/ldp.html

<tantek> FWIW - there was a Federated Social Web Summit just last week

<hhalpin> Also, we ran a XG for a full year

<hhalpin> and have held workshops previously

I'd like to know more about that Summit, Tantek

<npdoty_> tantek, I was sorry I couldn't attend that after all, can you give a quick summary of that?

<hhalpin> http://www.w3.org/2008/09/msnws/

<bblfish> thanks for the correction :-)

<hhalpin> http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/socialweb/XGR-socialweb-20101206/

<vivienne> My expertise is in testing for accessibility and if I could help in any way with testing and advise, I am more than willing.

<tantek> Federated Social Web Summit 2012 was held last Friday 2012-10-26

<tantek> https://plus.google.com/events/cfrq5ndlkfh29dd9gqh3b5pg5hs

<tantek> notes from FSWS: https://etherpad.mozilla.org/fsw

<hhalpin> There are also a number of specs in this space and working open-source software

<tantek> wiki page: http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/federatedsocialweb/wiki/Federated_Social_Web_Summit_2012

<hhalpin> The notes's from FSWS are probably a good snapshot

<hhalpin> of current landscape, yet the real problem the economic drivers for a single group of specs

<bblfish> yes, the w3c had one year of work on the players in the Social Web field

<Steven> i/Steven: need a set of standards that define a/scribenick: AnnBassetti

<hhalpin> And W3C hosted a non-invited version last year of the Federated Social Web Summit:

<hhalpin> http://d-cent.org/fsw2011/

Tantek: Federated SW Summit was invite only, but 'knockable'

AnnB: how does one get on mailing list, or some such, to find out far enough in advance to know it's even happening

(hard to knock, if you don't know it's occurring)

<npdoty_> tantek: rather than wait for people to build tools for us, build our own (indiewebcamp)

Tantek: beating FB (etc) over the head in a workshop is not likely to succeed

<sandro> +1 tantek rather than beating market leaders over the head and asking them to attend, make a std succeed without them and then they'll join

Tantek: IndieWeb trying to make open social web happening

HarryHalpin: W3C interested in this space for quite awhile
... (lists various previous events/ groups)
... been discussing this for quite awhile .. .

<sandro> A Standards-based, Open and Privacy-aware Social Web, W3C Incubator Group Report 6th December 2010

HarryHalpin: Tantek correct, problem is not that we do not have specs .. maybe we have too many specs
... what are economic drivers that require 'social' to open up?
... what are the business niches?

<npdoty_> does anyone here have insight into tent.io?

<npdoty_> (I know Harry's point is beyond just building these cool decentralized protocols, but I'm still curious about this one)

<wseltzer1> We're reaching time to wrap up

Harry: dumping all your private data on the open web is not a good idea

<tantek> drat

<tantek> "discussing for some time" is the problem. too much discussing, not enough coding.

<tantek> and especially not enough self-dogfooding.

what about, Tantek, people like me who aren't coders?

<tantek> at some point frankly, I gave up on purely workshop/discussion/meeting only efforts

<tantek> if you're not creating (code/UI/UX/design) or not self-dogfooding what you create on your own domain, you're not helping the social web move forward.

<ArnaudLH> linked data profile == linked data platform

(although I agree, TC, with the spirit of your point)

<tantek> AnnBassetti - sorry to say, but no amount of non-creators speaking to each other will result in anything being created.

<hhalpin> Any particular use-cases and drivers from people I'd love to see that in IRC

<npdoty_> tantek, I'd like to think our strategy can be more than just telling people more loudly that they need to code/dogfood

<melvster> +1

<tantek> no number of customers in a restaurant discussing a menu will cause a meal to be created

<hhalpin> I in general agree, but I do think there's quite a lot of "creators" in this space, the problem has been adoption.

<sandro> henry: business case: police, firefighters, etc, all need social, they need access control. facebook market cap was high; if we could reach everyone, the value would be much higher.

<tantek> hhalpin - there are many creators, but fewer creator self-dogfooders

<tantek> so I no longer hold any hope for even creators who are not self-dogfooding their own creations

<bblfish> si me: build it, use it, build communities

<Steven> W3C isn't a restaurant, it's a kitchen Tantek.

<sandro> vivienne: Use case -- taking your medical data, as you switch medical providers

<tantek> Steven, saying you're not a creator is like saying you can't cook

<bblfish> "W3C isn't a restaurant, it's a kitchen" +1

<tantek> doesn't matter whether you're in a restaurant or a kitchen, if you can't cook, you're not going to be able to make a meal except by purchasing what others have prepared

<SteveH_> the next session == lunch

<jeff_> How about W3C is a French restaurant

<bblfish> ah sorry

<bblfish> forgot. Time flies

<sandro> tantek, people can contribute a lot by saying what kind of food they're ready to pay for, right now.

<hhalpin> Next session is on "Privacy and Identity" so lots will come up

<hhalpin> that may be relevant for people here, in the same room.

<npdoty_> wseltzer: thanks everybody, really thinking hard about this area where this consortium can bring these people together, bringing companies together or bringing coders together, please get in touch

<npdoty_> ... hoping to put together a workshop that can help us take this to the next stage

<tantek> sandro - I've seen too many social sites / solutions built for people who are asking for things they'll pay for, then get flipped into an acquisition by a larger company and shut down.

<tantek> I no longer hold any hope for such ventures.

<Steven> W3C is full of cooks. We must make sure we don't try to make any broth.

<tantek> it's an unsustainable model

<sandro> excellent point, tantek

<jeff_> Thanks Wendy for getting us out in time for lunch.

<SteveH_> wendy just mentioned a (pre)program committee for a workshop... who would be interested in being on it?

<tantek> Steven, few W3C cooks actually cook for themselves first and foremost

THANKS EVERYONE!! Help us plan a workshop!

<tantek> cooks should have to live on their own creations first before claiming they can feed others.

<SteveH_> I, or another IBM colleague, would very much like to volunteer to be on the program committee.

<Steven> I am happy to help too

Summary of Action Items

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