See also: IRC log
<Joshue108> scribe: Josh
<Joshue108> <discussion on Jons technique>
<Joshue108> LGR: This could be another tech suitable for 1.3.1
<Joshue108> Jon: Do you want more detail? Event handlers etc?
<Joshue108> Loretta: We should be telling people to look at what they have implemented, and what the tech is describing.
<Joshue108> LGR: The functional tests can be problematic in use.
<Joshue108> JG: So you're more interested in how you add keyboard support to any kind of widget.
<Joshue108> LGR: Thats what I am wondering.
<Joshue108> LGR: You can add tabindex="0", you may or may not use activedescendent etc.
<Joshue108> JG: Do you really want to promote people doing tabindex="0" on everything?
<Joshue108> LGR: We want to indicate best practice. In some cases, this may be perfectly fine.
<Joshue108> JG: So something about adding event handlers to partciular widgets.
<Joshue108> JOC: We should have something somehwere.
<Joshue108> JOC: We should have examples of where using tabindex is best practice and other where using event handlers or whatever is preferable..
<Joshue108> DF: We do have people who may to expect to reach things by tabbing thru, which is the method in most manu type cases.
<Joshue108> DF: So this tech may be fine for some browser AT combos, but in some cases in can lead to a loss of context etc.
<Joshue108> DF: There should be a disclaimer about use where the user base is known where proper AT and browser combinations are used.
<Joshue108> LGR: A technique would be a good place to have that discussion.
JG: I've seen companies use tab
technique and felt that was a good technique - but let to
thousands of tab stops
... Other models for keyboard - but not an ARIA technique at
that point
... Big part of ARIA / ARIA techs would be to focus on
authoring practices - because then when folks get to a menu,
they know what behavior to expect
... Otherwise they're left wondering how a widget may act
DF: I wonder about those folks in install base that don't have latest browser / screenreader. They would be badly served by a widget that don't tell them. Perhaps tell users that will miss out on this that they need to use menu keys etc - how to operate
<Loretta> HTML non-ARIA technique: http://www.w3.org/TR/2012/NOTE-WCAG20-TECHS-20120103/SCR35
JG: Menu bar and menu navigation
are two separate things
... In a menu instead of links you'll have menu items - you
have to add event handlers. You have to look at that because
something looks like a menu, you may not want to use ARIA to
make it a "menu". If it's just a bunch of links there is
already a bunch of built in AT support to navigate
... In general I see users overusing ARIA where they shouldn't
use it.
... Can often add to overcomplicated designs. Menu is one of
those items
DF: Sounds like a clear case to make a differentiation between the techniques
LGR: May be a 1.3.1 technique for menus where description tries to capture what instances you would use this markup for.
<Joshue108> +q
LGR: Issue where people are using
where it's not appropriate is 1.3.1 - where people are trying
to expose semantics w/ ARIA
... There is an existing technique - pre-ARIA - for making
actions keyboard accessible
<Joshue108> Here it is again:
<Joshue108> -q
http://www.w3.org/TR/2012/NOTE-WCAG20-TECHS-20120103/SCR35
JOC: Sounds like Jon has hit on several techniques that we need
LGR: Willing to try to take existing keyboard technique and create a version that is an ARIA/HTML5 technique
<Joshue108> JOC: I'd like to help Loretta on that technique
<jongund> Uses tab or arrow keys for pull down lists of links: http://www.dhs.state.il.us/page.aspx?
<Detlev> sounds good!
JG: ARIA Authoring Practices outlines keyboard navigation - what different keystrokes should do for different widgets
LGR: Would you consider writing up a 1.3.1 technique for menus where you capture your understanding under what circumstances ARIA techniques could be used for menus?
JG: Yes. I think most of the navigation is just listed links, then just landmark navigation role is fine.
<Joshue108> JOC: Thats great, thanks Jon.
JG: I'll try writing it up and sending it. Something about the different types of menus
<Joshue108> http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG20/#content-structure-separation-programmatic
JG: So it would be a technique on when it's good to use an ARIA menu? When it's good to use one - when not to use one?
LGR: I'm trying to think of the parallel for the technique of when it's appropriate to use Headings
JOC: Traditionally menus over the years have been Lists - but there is a disconnect on what these things may be and how you expect them to act
Agreement to write up draft and then discuss further when we have that draft
LGR: Two techniques for Jon - 4.1.2 using specific menu roles and properties and 1.3.1 when to use menu, menubar roles
<Loretta> https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/htmltechs20121005/results#xtree
JG: Don't believe ARIA has the concept of a static tree
LGR: I pulled that example out of the ARIA spec
JG: To me it's just a nested list - not sure why we should put ARIA on it. I'll ask Rich S what the use case would be
LGR: Certainly not interactive in the sense of expand or collapse
<jongund> I need to go
JOC: Will look at this expanded state in a tree widget technique next week
This is scribe.perl Revision: 1.137 of Date: 2012/09/20 20:19:01 Check for newer version at http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/ Guessing input format: RRSAgent_Text_Format (score 1.00) No ScribeNick specified. Guessing ScribeNick: marcjohlic Found Scribe: Josh WARNING: No "Present: ... " found! Possibly Present: DF Detlev IPcaller JG JOC Jon Jon_Gunderson Joshue Joshue108 LGR Loretta Marc_Johlic P0 aaaa https inserted jongund You can indicate people for the Present list like this: <dbooth> Present: dbooth jonathan mary <dbooth> Present+ amy Got date from IRC log name: 22 Oct 2012 Guessing minutes URL: http://www.w3.org/2012/10/22-html-techs-tf-minutes.html People with action items: WARNING: Input appears to use implicit continuation lines. You may need the "-implicitContinuations" option.[End of scribe.perl diagnostic output]