15:55:10 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #html-techs-tf
15:55:10 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/10/22-html-techs-tf-irc
15:55:15 <Joshue108> zakim, this will be 9224
15:55:15 <Zakim> ok, Joshue108; I see WAI_HTML TT()11:30AM scheduled to start 25 minutes ago
15:55:28 <Joshue108> rrsagent, make log world
15:56:04 <Joshue108> Meeting: HTML techniques TF
15:56:13 <Joshue108> Chair: Josh
15:56:18 <Joshue108> agenda + https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/22_10_2012/
15:58:09 <Zakim> WAI_HTML TT()11:30AM has now started
15:58:16 <Zakim> +??P0
15:58:22 <Joshue108> zakim, ??P0 is Joshue
15:58:22 <Zakim> +Joshue; got it
15:59:03 <Detlev> Detlev has joined #html-techs-tf
16:01:19 <Zakim> + +49.403.17.aaaa
16:02:01 <Joshue108> zakim, +*17.aaaa is Detlev
16:02:01 <Zakim> sorry, Joshue108, I do not recognize a party named '+*17.aaaa'
16:02:02 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
16:02:02 <Zakim> +Jon_Gunderson
16:02:19 <Joshue108> zakim, +49.403.17.aaaa is Detlev
16:02:19 <Zakim> +Detlev; got it
16:02:49 <Loretta> Loretta has joined #html-techs-tf
16:02:50 <Joshue108> zakim, +[IPcaller] is Loretta
16:02:50 <Zakim> sorry, Joshue108, I do not recognize a party named '+[IPcaller]'
16:02:59 <Joshue108> zakim, +IPcaller is Loretta
16:02:59 <Zakim> sorry, Joshue108, I do not recognize a party named '+IPcaller'
16:03:22 <Joshue108> zakim, [IPcaller] is Loretta
16:03:22 <Zakim> +Loretta; got it
16:03:29 <marcjohlic> marcjohlic has joined #html-techs-tf
16:03:49 <Zakim> +Marc_Johlic
16:07:54 <Joshue108> scribe: Josh
16:08:01 <Joshue108> zakim, take up item one
16:08:01 <Zakim> 'one' does not match any agenda item, Joshue108
16:08:04 <Joshue108> zakim, take up item 1
16:08:04 <Zakim> agendum 1. "https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/22_10_2012/" taken up [from Joshue108]
16:08:15 <Joshue108> <discussion on Jons technique>
16:08:41 <Joshue108> LGR: This could be another tech suitable for 1.3.1
16:08:57 <Joshue108> Jon: Do you want more detail? Event handlers etc?
16:09:19 <Joshue108> Loretta: We should be telling people to look at what they have implemented, and what the tech is describing.
16:09:36 <Joshue108> LGR: The functional tests can be problematic in use.
16:09:54 <Joshue108> JG: So you're more interested in how you add keyboard support to any kind of widget.
16:10:02 <Joshue108> LGR: Thats what I am wondering.
16:10:24 <Joshue108> LGR: You can add tabindex="0", you may or may not use activedescendent etc.
16:10:50 <Joshue108> JG: Do you really want to promote people doing tabindex="0" on everything?
16:11:15 <Joshue108> LGR: We want to indicate best practice. In some cases, this may be perfectly fine.
16:11:30 <Joshue108> JG: So something about adding event handlers to partciular widgets.
16:12:00 <Joshue108> JOC: We should have something somehwere.
16:12:44 <Joshue108> JOC: We should have examples of where using tabindex is best practice and other where using event handlers or whatever is preferable..
16:13:20 <Joshue108> DF: We do have people who may to expect to reach things by tabbing thru, which is the method in most manu type cases.
16:14:01 <Joshue108> DF: So this tech may be fine for some browser AT combos, but in some cases in can lead to a loss of context etc.
16:14:26 <Joshue108> DF: There should be a disclaimer about use where the user base is known where proper AT and browser combinations are used.
16:14:40 <Joshue108> LGR: A technique would be a good place to have that discussion.
16:16:34 <marcjohlic> JG:  I've seen companies use tab technique and felt that was a good technique - but let to thousands of tab stops
16:16:50 <marcjohlic> JG:  Other models for keyboard - but not an ARIA technique at that point
16:17:18 <marcjohlic> JG:  Big part of ARIA / ARIA techs would be to focus on authoring practices - because then when folks get to a menu, they know what behavior to expect
16:17:30 <marcjohlic> JG:  Otherwise they're left wondering how a widget may act
16:17:45 <Loretta> http://www.w3.org/TR/2012/NOTE-UNDERSTANDING-WCAG20-20120103/keyboard-operation-keyboard-operable.html
16:18:35 <marcjohlic> DF:  I wonder about those folks in install base that don't have latest browser / screenreader.  They would be badly served by a widget that don't tell them.  Perhaps tell users that will miss out on this that they need to use menu keys etc - how to operate
16:19:07 <Loretta> HTML non-ARIA technique: http://www.w3.org/TR/2012/NOTE-WCAG20-TECHS-20120103/SCR35
16:19:17 <marcjohlic> JG:  Menu bar and menu navigation are two separate things
16:20:08 <marcjohlic> JG:  In a menu instead of links you'll have menu items - you have to add event handlers.  You have to look at that because something looks like a menu, you may not want to use ARIA to make it a "menu".  If it's just a bunch of links there is already a bunch of built in AT support to navigate
16:21:32 <Loretta> q+
16:21:35 <marcjohlic> JG:  In general I see users overusing ARIA where they shouldn't use it.
16:22:07 <marcjohlic> JG:  Can often add to overcomplicated designs.  Menu is one of those items
16:22:28 <Joshue108> zakim, ack Loretta
16:22:28 <Zakim> I see no one on the speaker queue
16:22:33 <marcjohlic> DF:  Sounds like a clear case to make a differentiation between the techniques
16:22:40 <Loretta> q+
16:24:04 <Joshue108> zakim, ack Loretta
16:24:04 <Zakim> I see no one on the speaker queue
16:24:12 <Joshue108> zakim, mute me
16:24:12 <Zakim> Joshue should now be muted
16:24:47 <Joshue108> zakim, who is making noise?
16:24:59 <Zakim> Joshue108, listening for 11 seconds I heard sound from the following: Loretta (69%), Jon_Gunderson (16%)
16:25:28 <marcjohlic> LGR:  May be a 1.3.1 technique for menus where description tries to capture what instances you would use this markup for.
16:25:33 <Joshue108> +q
16:25:43 <Joshue108> zakim, unmute me
16:25:43 <Zakim> Joshue should no longer be muted
16:25:57 <marcjohlic> LGR:  Issue where people are using where it's not appropriate is 1.3.1 - where people are trying to expose semantics w/ ARIA
16:26:26 <marcjohlic> LGR:  There is an existing technique - pre-ARIA - for making actions keyboard accessible
16:26:34 <Joshue108> Here it is again:
16:26:44 <Joshue108> zakim, ack me
16:26:44 <Zakim> I see no one on the speaker queue
16:26:51 <Joshue108> -q
16:26:56 <marcjohlic> http://www.w3.org/TR/2012/NOTE-WCAG20-TECHS-20120103/SCR35
16:27:26 <marcjohlic> JOC:  Sounds like Jon has hit on several techniques that we need
16:27:49 <marcjohlic> LGR:  Willing to try to take existing keyboard technique and create a version that is an ARIA/HTML5 technique
16:27:57 <Joshue108> JOC: I'd like to help Loretta on that technique
16:29:11 <jongund> Uses tab or arrow keys for pull down lists of links: http://www.dhs.state.il.us/page.aspx?
16:29:37 <jongund> q+
16:30:30 <Joshue108> zakim, ack jongund
16:30:30 <Zakim> I see no one on the speaker queue
16:30:51 <Detlev> sounds good!
16:32:12 <marcjohlic> JG:  ARIA Authoring Practices outlines keyboard navigation - what different keystrokes should do for different widgets
16:33:06 <marcjohlic> LGR:  Would you consider writing up a 1.3.1 technique for menus where you capture your understanding under what circumstances ARIA techniques could be used for menus?
16:33:50 <marcjohlic> JG:  Yes.  I think most of the navigation is just listed links, then just landmark navigation role is fine.
16:34:04 <Joshue108> JOC: Thats great, thanks Jon.
16:34:10 <marcjohlic> JG:  I'll try writing it up and sending it.  Something about the different types of menus
16:35:05 <Joshue108> http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG20/#content-structure-separation-programmatic
16:36:26 <marcjohlic> JG:  So it would be a technique on when it's good to use an ARIA menu?  When it's good to use one - when not to use one?
16:36:53 <marcjohlic> LGR:  I'm trying to think of the parallel for the technique of when it's appropriate to use Headings
16:37:07 <marcjohlic> zakim, who is noisy
16:37:07 <Zakim> I don't understand 'who is noisy', marcjohlic
16:37:14 <marcjohlic> zakim, who is making noise
16:37:14 <Zakim> I don't understand 'who is making noise', marcjohlic
16:39:40 <marcjohlic> JOC:  Traditionally menus over the years have been Lists - but there is a disconnect on what these things may be and how you expect them to act
16:42:11 <marcjohlic> Agreement to write up draft and then discuss further when we have that draft
16:45:04 <marcjohlic> LGR:  Two techniques for Jon - 4.1.2 using specific menu roles and properties and 1.3.1 when to use menu, menubar roles
16:46:44 <Joshue108> agenda + ARIA Expandable
16:46:51 <Joshue108> zakim, take up item two
16:46:51 <Zakim> 'two' does not match any agenda item, Joshue108
16:46:54 <Joshue108> zakim, take up item 2
16:46:54 <Zakim> agendum 2. "ARIA Expandable" taken up [from Joshue108]
16:47:47 <Loretta> https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/htmltechs20121005/results#xtree
16:53:01 <marcjohlic> JG:  Don't believe ARIA has the concept of a static tree
16:53:09 <marcjohlic> LGR:  I pulled that example out of the ARIA spec
16:53:57 <marcjohlic> JG:  To me it's just a nested list - not sure why we should put ARIA on it.  I'll ask Rich S what the use case would be
16:54:13 <marcjohlic> LGR:  Certainly not interactive in the sense of expand or collapse
16:54:29 <jongund> I need to go
16:54:45 <Zakim> -Jon_Gunderson
16:55:15 <marcjohlic> JOC:  Will look at this expanded state in a tree widget technique next week
16:58:33 <Zakim> -Marc_Johlic
16:58:58 <Joshue108> rrsagent, make minutes
16:58:58 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/10/22-html-techs-tf-minutes.html Joshue108
16:59:07 <Loretta> zakim, who is her?
16:59:07 <Zakim> I don't understand your question, Loretta.
16:59:17 <Joshue108> zakim, who is here?
16:59:17 <Zakim> On the phone I see Joshue, Detlev, Loretta
16:59:19 <Zakim> On IRC I see marcjohlic, Loretta, RRSAgent, Zakim, Joshue108, jongund
17:00:04 <Zakim> -Detlev
17:04:12 <marcjohlic> marcjohlic has left #html-techs-tf
17:28:43 <Zakim> -Joshue
17:28:45 <Zakim> -Loretta
17:28:46 <Zakim> WAI_HTML TT()11:30AM has ended
17:28:46 <Zakim> Attendees were Joshue, Jon_Gunderson, Detlev, Loretta, Marc_Johlic
18:15:12 <Joshue108> Joshue108 has joined #html-techs-tf