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<sandro> Guest: Paul Groth
<sandro> Present: Ivan, Mischa, Dan_Brickley, Matheus, Peter, Jan, Baget, Humfrey, Yves, Cygri, Champin, Fabien, Steve, Matteo, Sandro, Wood, Guus
<sandro> Remote: AZ, Gavin, Steiner, Zhe, Corby, ww
07:56:20 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/04/13-rdf-wg-irc
RRSAgent IRC Bot: logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/04/13-rdf-wg-irc ←
07:56:25 <gavinc> Mmm... 1 am is in fact morning I guess ;)
Gavin Carothers: Mmm... 1 am is in fact morning I guess ;) ←
07:56:27 <ivan> rrsagent, set log public
Ivan Herman: rrsagent, set log public ←
07:56:44 <ivan> gavinc: just a minute, we will dial in soonish
Gavin Carothers: just a minute, we will dial in soonish [ Scribe Assist by Ivan Herman ] ←
07:56:50 <Zakim> + +1.404.978.aabb
Zakim IRC Bot: + +1.404.978.aabb ←
07:57:19 <tomayac> zakim, aabb is me
Thomas Steiner: zakim, aabb is me ←
07:57:19 <Zakim> +tomayac; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +tomayac; got it ←
08:05:31 <Zakim> + +31.20.592.aacc
(No events recorded for 8 minutes)
Zakim IRC Bot: + +31.20.592.aacc ←
08:05:54 <pfps> zakim, who is here?
Peter Patel-Schneider: zakim, who is here? ←
08:05:54 <Zakim> On the phone I see gavinc, tomayac, +31.20.592.aacc
Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see gavinc, tomayac, +31.20.592.aacc ←
08:05:55 <sandro> zakim, who is on the call?
Sandro Hawke: zakim, who is on the call? ←
08:05:56 <Zakim> On the phone I see gavinc, tomayac, +31.20.592.aacc
Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see gavinc, tomayac, +31.20.592.aacc ←
08:06:35 <AZ> Hello
Antoine Zimmermann: Hello ←
<sandro> Topic: Introductions (Around the Table)
<sandro> Ivan Herman
Sandro Hawke: Ivan Herman ←
<sandro> Mischa Tuffield
Sandro Hawke: Mischa Tuffield ←
<sandro> Dan Brickley
Sandro Hawke: Dan Brickley ←
<sandro> Christopher Matheus
Sandro Hawke: Christopher Matheus ←
<sandro> Peter Patel-Schneider
Sandro Hawke: Peter Patel-Schneider ←
<sandro> Jan Wielemaker
Sandro Hawke: Jan Wielemaker ←
<sandro> Jean-François Baget
Sandro Hawke: Jean-François Baget ←
<sandro> Nicholas Humfrey
Sandro Hawke: Nicholas Humfrey ←
<sandro> Yves Raimond
Sandro Hawke: Yves Raimond ←
<sandro> Richard Cyganiak
Sandro Hawke: Richard Cyganiak ←
<sandro> Pierre-Antoine Champin
Sandro Hawke: Pierre-Antoine Champin ←
<sandro> Fabien Gandon
Sandro Hawke: Fabien Gandon ←
<sandro> Steve Harris
Sandro Hawke: Steve Harris ←
<sandro> Matteo Brunati
Sandro Hawke: Matteo Brunati ←
<sandro> Sandro Hawke
Sandro Hawke: Sandro Hawke ←
<sandro> David Wood
Sandro Hawke: David Wood ←
<sandro> Guus Schreiber
Sandro Hawke: Guus Schreiber ←
08:09:13 <Zakim> + +1.760.705.aaee
Zakim IRC Bot: + +1.760.705.aaee ←
08:09:24 <AZ> zakim, +1.760.705.aaee is me
Antoine Zimmermann: zakim, +1.760.705.aaee is me ←
08:09:24 <Zakim> +AZ; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +AZ; got it ←
08:09:28 <ivan> zakim, who is here?
Ivan Herman: zakim, who is here? ←
08:09:28 <Zakim> On the phone I see gavinc, tomayac, +31.20.592.aacc, OlivierCorby, AZ
Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see gavinc, tomayac, +31.20.592.aacc, OlivierCorby, AZ ←
08:09:55 <AZ> zakim, mute me
Antoine Zimmermann: zakim, mute me ←
08:09:55 <Zakim> AZ should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: AZ should now be muted ←
08:10:01 <ivan> zakim, aacc is ivan
Ivan Herman: zakim, aacc is ivan ←
08:10:01 <Zakim> +ivan; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +ivan; got it ←
08:10:03 <pfps> zakim, aacc is CWI
Peter Patel-Schneider: zakim, aacc is CWI ←
08:10:03 <Zakim> sorry, pfps, I do not recognize a party named 'aacc'
Zakim IRC Bot: sorry, pfps, I do not recognize a party named 'aacc' ←
08:10:25 <sandro> zakim, ivan is Meeting_Room
Sandro Hawke: zakim, ivan is Meeting_Room ←
08:10:25 <Zakim> +Meeting_Room; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +Meeting_Room; got it ←
08:10:53 <SteveH> Scribe: mischat
(Scribe set to Mischa Tuffield)
08:11:00 <mischat> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/F2F1
http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/F2F1 ←
08:11:27 <FabGandon> zakim, who is here?
Fabien Gandon: zakim, who is here? ←
08:11:27 <Zakim> On the phone I see gavinc, tomayac, Meeting_Room, OlivierCorby, AZ (muted)
Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see gavinc, tomayac, Meeting_Room, OlivierCorby, AZ (muted) ←
<sandro> Topic: Agenda Review
08:11:55 <mischat> Guus: are we happy with the agenda ?
Guus Schreiber: are we happy with the agenda ? ←
08:12:11 <mischat> Guus: does anything need to be amended?
Guus Schreiber: does anything need to be amended? ←
08:12:46 <mischat> as thomas is not here so matteo will be giving the json roundup
as thomas is not here so matteo will be giving the json roundup ←
08:13:38 <mischat> thanks
thanks ←
08:18:23 <mischat> is everyone physically at CWI turning up to dinner tonight ?
is everyone physically at CWI turning up to dinner tonight ? ←
08:18:26 <mischat> if not shout ...
if not shout ... ←
08:19:02 <mischat> anyone for agenda changes ?
anyone for agenda changes ? ←
08:19:16 <mischat> we are looking at this now
we are looking at this now ←
08:19:16 <mischat> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/F2F1-objectives
http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/F2F1-objectives ←
08:19:26 <mischat> ^^ are the objectives for this f2f
^^ are the objectives for this f2f ←
08:19:57 <mischat> Guus: this f2f to move us from an open discussion to a more targeted effort
Guus Schreiber: this f2f to move us from an open discussion to a more targeted effort ←
08:20:24 <mischat> we are looking to get documents in place
we are looking to get documents in place ←
08:21:02 <mischat> from now on we should have our long threads turn into something tangible and useful for the process
from now on we should have our long threads turn into something tangible and useful for the process ←
08:21:33 <mischat> we are now looking to identify starting documents for the various tasks
we are now looking to identify starting documents for the various tasks ←
08:21:50 <mischat> Guus: would like to have names against the various documents, so that we can push work forward
Guus Schreiber: would like to have names against the various documents, so that we can push work forward ←
08:21:59 <mischat> Graph's tasks force
Graph's tasks force ←
08:22:40 <mischat> we have some standard terminology now in terms of GraphTerminology
we have some standard terminology now in terms of GraphTerminology ←
08:23:11 <mischat> Guus: another issues is the alignment with the SPARQL work
Guus Schreiber: another issues is the alignment with the SPARQL work ←
08:23:26 <NickH> http://plixi.com/p/92009392
Nicholas Humfrey: http://plixi.com/p/92009392 ←
08:24:03 <mischat> Guus: so what will be the starting document for the GRaphs TF, should it be the RDF concepts
Guus Schreiber: so what will be the starting document for the GRaphs TF, should it be the RDF concepts ←
08:24:05 <mischat> ?
? ←
08:24:19 <mischat> that is the current feeling, and these are things which we need to discuss
that is the current feeling, and these are things which we need to discuss ←
08:24:38 <tomayac> thanks, NickH for the photo :-)
Thomas Steiner: thanks, NickH for the photo :-) ←
08:25:18 <mischat> Guus: we have some cleanup tasks, and there are discussions needed to identify what changes need to happen to the various RDF documents
Guus Schreiber: we have some cleanup tasks, and there are discussions needed to identify what changes need to happen to the various RDF documents ←
08:25:48 <mischat> Guus: we seem to have a good grasp of the issues, re: a good issue list has been developed
Guus Schreiber: we seem to have a good grasp of the issues, re: a good issue list has been developed ←
08:25:59 <mischat> Guus: do people think we have a good grasp of the problem domain ?
Guus Schreiber: do people think we have a good grasp of the problem domain ? ←
08:26:04 <mischat> question for the room ^^
question for the room ^^ ←
08:26:30 <FabGandon> for ecah identifier we define (e.g. g-box identifiers) we should also discuss what happens when we dereference that identifier (e.g. what do I get when I dereference the IRI of g-box? triples in the g-box? triples about g-box? both)
Fabien Gandon: for ecah identifier we define (e.g. g-box identifiers) we should also discuss what happens when we dereference that identifier (e.g. what do I get when I dereference the IRI of g-box? triples in the g-box? triples about g-box? both) ←
08:27:57 <pgroth> - moving on to discussing turtle
Paul Groth: - moving on to discussing turtle ←
08:28:03 <FabGandon> Guus: for TURTLE starting point is the doc from team submission
Guus Schreiber: for TURTLE starting point is the doc from team submission [ Scribe Assist by Fabien Gandon ] ←
08:28:56 <FabGandon> Guus: N-triple considered as a limited sub-set of Turtle
Guus Schreiber: N-triple considered as a limited sub-set of Turtle [ Scribe Assist by Fabien Gandon ] ←
08:29:07 <ivan> zakim, who is here?
Ivan Herman: zakim, who is here? ←
08:29:07 <Zakim> On the phone I see gavinc, tomayac, Meeting_Room, OlivierCorby, AZ (muted)
Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see gavinc, tomayac, Meeting_Room, OlivierCorby, AZ (muted) ←
08:29:22 <NickH> pchampin: very impressive!
Pierre-Antoine Champin: very impressive! [ Scribe Assist by Nicholas Humfrey ] ←
08:30:16 <ivan> zakim, Meeting_Room has David Wood, Sandro, Mateo, Steve Harris, Fabien, Pierre Antoine, Cygri, Yves, Nick, Jean-François, Jan, PFPS, Paul Groth, Chris Matheus, Dan Brickley, Misha Tuffield, Ivan
Ivan Herman: zakim, Meeting_Room has David Wood, Sandro, Mateo, Steve Harris, Fabien, Pierre Antoine, Cygri, Yves, Nick, Jean-François, Jan, PFPS, Paul Groth, Chris Matheus, Dan Brickley, Misha Tuffield, Ivan ←
08:30:16 <Zakim> +David, Wood, Sandro, Mateo, Steve, Harris, Fabien, Pierre, Antoine, Cygri, Yves, Nick, Jean-François, Jan, PFPS, Paul, Groth, Chris, Matheus, Dan, Brickley, Misha, Tuffield,
Zakim IRC Bot: +David, Wood, Sandro, Mateo, Steve, Harris, Fabien, Pierre, Antoine, Cygri, Yves, Nick, Jean-François, Jan, PFPS, Paul, Groth, Chris, Matheus, Dan, Brickley, Misha, Tuffield, ←
08:30:20 <Zakim> ... Ivan; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: ... Ivan; got it ←
08:30:35 <mischat> JSON, we have documents to start from, in terms of the Talis submission
JSON, we have documents to start from, in terms of the Talis submission ←
08:30:47 <yvesr> if we're not able to standardise object-based json, can we at least standardise a canonical mapping from an rdf graph to some straight-fw json?
Yves Raimond: if we're not able to standardise object-based json, can we at least standardise a canonical mapping from an rdf graph to some straight-fw json? ←
08:31:14 <mischat> davidWood: just asked about Talis submitting a member submission
David Wood: just asked about Talis submitting a member submission ←
08:31:48 <mischat> Guus: it is important to figure out what is achievable in terms of work in the JSON TF
Guus Schreiber: it is important to figure out what is achievable in terms of work in the JSON TF ←
08:32:31 <mischat> danbri: JSON developers learn new formats all the time
Dan Brickley: JSON developers learn new formats all the time ←
08:33:04 <mischat> danbri: we can get it wrong, and push out three syntaxes, and we will get it right eventually
Dan Brickley: we can get it wrong, and push out three syntaxes, and we will get it right eventually ←
08:33:47 <mischat> in the JSON TF, we need to elicit what our objectives should be
in the JSON TF, we need to elicit what our objectives should be ←
08:34:07 <mischat> if we develop more than one syntax then we will have doubled the work
if we develop more than one syntax then we will have doubled the work ←
08:34:18 <mischat> ivan: asked about cleanup related actions
Ivan Herman: asked about cleanup related actions ←
08:34:26 <mischat> Guus: there is time set aside for that tomorrow
Guus Schreiber: there is time set aside for that tomorrow ←
08:34:51 <mischat> Guus: has no idea how much work the cleanup will be
Guus Schreiber: has no idea how much work the cleanup will be ←
08:35:35 <mischat> ivan there are a bunch of small issues, URIRef vs IRI
ivan there are a bunch of small issues, URIRef vs IRI ←
08:35:42 <pchampin> ivan: following discussion on the ML, we need to agree on what 'deprecation' means for this WG
Ivan Herman: following discussion on the ML, we need to agree on what 'deprecation' means for this WG [ Scribe Assist by Pierre-Antoine Champin ] ←
08:36:00 <tomayac> (audio no longer understandable on the US no. anyone else on the phone have this issue, too?)
Thomas Steiner: (audio no longer understandable on the US no. anyone else on the phone have this issue, too?) ←
08:36:04 <mischat> ivan: the meta-issue regarding "deprecation" should be discussed and sorted out here at the f2f
Ivan Herman: the meta-issue regarding "deprecation" should be discussed and sorted out here at the f2f ←
08:36:33 <mischat> the issue will be tackled tomorrow, but we are going to try and touch upon it now
the issue will be tackled tomorrow, but we are going to try and touch upon it now ←
08:36:34 <mischat> for 20 mins
for 20 mins ←
08:37:12 <ivan> q?
Ivan Herman: q? ←
08:37:17 <mischat> so lunch at somepoint between 12:30-13:00 central european summer time
so lunch at somepoint between 12:30-13:00 central european summer time ←
08:37:46 <mischat> davidwood: re: turtle, dave wants to know what standardised will be developed by tthe WG
David Wood: re: turtle, dave wants to know what standardised will be developed by tthe WG ←
08:37:56 <tomayac> (audio back to normal. phew)
Thomas Steiner: (audio back to normal. phew) ←
08:38:27 <mischat> i.e. we will have turtle, will we have qturtle, trig, or what combination of serialisations will we develop
i.e. we will have turtle, will we have qturtle, trig, or what combination of serialisations will we develop ←
08:39:12 <tomayac> sandro FTW! thanks!
Thomas Steiner: sandro FTW! thanks! ←
08:39:15 <mischat> peter: question should we have Qturtle, or turtle, should one be a superset ?
Peter Patel-Schneider: question should we have Qturtle, or turtle, should one be a superset ? ←
08:39:37 <mischat> so dave would like to see issue sorted out
so dave would like to see issue sorted out ←
08:40:00 <mischat> SteveH: said we could have one document which lists all of the turtle(related) serialisations
Steve Harris: said we could have one document which lists all of the turtle(related) serialisations ←
08:40:16 <pchampin> sounds like a great idea to me
Pierre-Antoine Champin: sounds like a great idea to me ←
08:40:31 <mischat> Dave's goal for the f2f is to nail the turtle work
Dave's goal for the f2f is to nail the turtle work ←
08:40:48 <mischat> so we have clear goals, turtle work seems to be the most advanced
so we have clear goals, turtle work seems to be the most advanced ←
08:41:27 <mischat> danbri, we have a big archive "www rdf comments", will someone go through the archives
danbri, we have a big archive "www rdf comments", will someone go through the archives ←
08:41:38 <mischat> where we have had lots of feedback from people about RDF
where we have had lots of feedback from people about RDF ←
08:42:27 <tomayac> sandro, i up-scale it client-side, works perfect for me. thanks!
Thomas Steiner: sandro, i up-scale it client-side, works perfect for me. thanks! ←
08:43:24 <davidwood> http://www.w3.org/2000/03/rdf-tracking/#/%23futures - historical RDF issues
David Wood: http://www.w3.org/2000/03/rdf-tracking/#/%23futures - historical RDF issues ←
<pfps> Topic: Graphs Task Force
08:43:35 <mischat> we are going to move on to the Graph's discussion, if we are happy with the objectives ?
we are going to move on to the Graph's discussion, if we are happy with the objectives ? ←
08:43:59 <mischat> Richard is about to give some slides summarising the graphs work
Richard is about to give some slides summarising the graphs work ←
08:44:52 <mischat> there are some slides on the wiki for richard's talk
there are some slides on the wiki for richard's talk ←
08:44:56 <cygri> slides: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/images/3/3b/Rdfwg-graphs-tf-report.pdf
Richard Cyganiak: slides: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/images/3/3b/Rdfwg-graphs-tf-report.pdf ←
08:45:48 <mischat> cygri: will talk about the "problem", the "open issues", and will give us a view of other potential issues
Richard Cyganiak: will talk about the "problem", the "open issues", and will give us a view of other potential issues ←
08:46:17 <mischat> the charter says we must standardising a model for multiple graphs
the charter says we must standardising a model for multiple graphs ←
08:47:06 <mischat> the charter also states that we must standardise turtle and a something similar with multi graph support
the charter also states that we must standardise turtle and a something similar with multi graph support ←
08:47:34 <mischat> a decision was made for the turtle to focus on syntax and the graphs tf can look at extending turtle
a decision was made for the turtle to focus on syntax and the graphs tf can look at extending turtle ←
08:48:16 <pfps> It's *turqle*!!!
Peter Patel-Schneider: It's *turqle*!!! ←
08:48:21 <mischat> davidwood: missed the call where the work of putting in mutlli graph support to turtle should be a task for the graphs tf
David Wood: missed the call where the work of putting in mutlli graph support to turtle should be a task for the graphs tf ←
08:49:01 <mischat> Guus: turtle tf can talk about the syntax, but the graphs tf will inform what the multi graph syntax should represent
Guus Schreiber: turtle tf can talk about the syntax, but the graphs tf will inform what the multi graph syntax should represent ←
08:49:21 <mischat> cygri: is listing inputs to the graphs tf
Richard Cyganiak: is listing inputs to the graphs tf ←
08:49:37 <mischat> sparql's rdf dataset: ( and sparql update's graph store)
sparql's rdf dataset: ( and sparql update's graph store) ←
08:49:42 <mischat> being one
being one ←
08:49:50 <mischat> Carroll et al " Named Graphs
Carroll et al " Named Graphs ←
08:49:56 <mischat> Notation3: quoted graphs
Notation3: quoted graphs ←
08:50:36 <FabGandon> I disagree with the idea that "named graphs" in RDF/XML should be only "if time permits", for me it's a must
Fabien Gandon: I disagree with the idea that "named graphs" in RDF/XML should be only "if time permits", for me it's a must ←
08:50:49 <mischat> n3 allows for nesting, and quoting graphs, the n3 work should definitely inform the named graphs tf
n3 allows for nesting, and quoting graphs, the n3 work should definitely inform the named graphs tf ←
08:51:10 <ivan> FabGandon: any modification to RDF/XML is time permitting
Fabien Gandon: any modification to RDF/XML is time permitting [ Scribe Assist by Ivan Herman ] ←
08:51:15 <mischat> Trig, and Nquads should help inform any syntax discussions
Trig, and Nquads should help inform any syntax discussions ←
08:51:48 <mischat> cygri: also FabGandon has request to add named graph support to RDF/XML (like trix)
Richard Cyganiak: also FabGandon has request to add named graph support to RDF/XML (like trix) ←
08:52:06 <mischat> Reification was mentioned as an input
Reification was mentioned as an input ←
08:52:14 <mischat> and finally Typed graph literals
and finally Typed graph literals ←
08:53:05 <mischat> cygri: is pointing to a wiki page which has the named graph use-cases
Richard Cyganiak: is pointing to a wiki page which has the named graph use-cases ←
08:53:13 <sandro> david: Can we just view Reificiation as a way to address named graphs, and once we do that, we can more cleanly deprecate reification?
David Wood: Can we just view Reificiation as a way to address named graphs, and once we do that, we can more cleanly deprecate reification? [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
08:53:48 <mischat> which is broken down into the following : 5 storage use cases, 2 query use cases, 8 provenance, 4 use for standard foundation for w3c specs, 2 advanced annotations use case
which is broken down into the following : 5 storage use cases, 2 query use cases, 8 provenance, 4 use for standard foundation for w3c specs, 2 advanced annotations use case ←
08:54:17 <mischat> cygri: stated how we dont seem to be using the use-case we have in many of the discussion
Richard Cyganiak: stated how we dont seem to be using the use-case we have in many of the discussion ←
08:54:25 <mischat> we have lots of use-cases, they should be used
we have lots of use-cases, they should be used ←
08:54:33 <mischat> we have a bunch of proposals in this space
we have a bunch of proposals in this space ←
08:55:06 <mischat> we have 2 concrete proposal in this space so far
we have 2 concrete proposal in this space so far ←
08:55:10 <tomayac> sandro, small is good enough for me.
Thomas Steiner: sandro, small is good enough for me. ←
08:55:25 <mischat> cygri: there are implied proposals
Richard Cyganiak: there are implied proposals ←
08:55:50 <mischat> i.e. that n3's style quoted graphs may be more useful than the RDF dataset stuff
i.e. that n3's style quoted graphs may be more useful than the RDF dataset stuff ←
08:56:07 <mischat> cygri: is walking through the issues
Richard Cyganiak: is walking through the issues ←
08:56:15 <mischat> issue-5 : graph literals
08:56:32 <mischat> issue-5 asks whether we should have graph literals
ISSUE-5 asks whether we should have graph literals ←
08:57:16 <mischat> issue-14 : what is a named graph and what should we call it ?
ISSUE-14 : what is a named graph and what should we call it ? ←
08:57:43 <mischat> these include : Named Graph, named g-box ?, g-pair, or even IRI-graph-binding
these include : Named Graph, named g-box ?, g-pair, or even IRI-graph-binding ←
08:58:27 <mischat> ivan: would have liked to have seen a slide on "g-*" syntax
Ivan Herman: would have liked to have seen a slide on "g-*" syntax ←
08:58:47 <mischat> so that we can have agreement on what the terms are
so that we can have agreement on what the terms are ←
08:59:26 <gavinc> depends on how we quoted it ;)
Gavin Carothers: depends on how we quoted it ;) ←
08:59:56 <mischat> Guus: we need to come up with decent names for the g-* terminology, Guus personal opinion is that we need to make sure we dont use the overloaded term "graph" without qualifying it
Guus Schreiber: we need to come up with decent names for the g-* terminology, Guus personal opinion is that we need to make sure we dont use the overloaded term "graph" without qualifying it ←
09:00:18 <mischat> we need to make sure that we all agree on what the various g-* terminology is
we need to make sure that we all agree on what the various g-* terminology is ←
09:01:17 <mischat> pgroth: said that Luc Moreau Provenance WG has given feedback on the g-* syntax
Paul Groth: said that Luc Moreau Provenance WG has given feedback on the g-* syntax ←
09:01:24 <mischat> see mischat's email to the list ^^
see mischat's email to the list ^^ ←
09:01:38 <mischat> issue-15 : "g-pair" semantics
ISSUE-15 : "g-pair" semantics ←
09:01:53 <mischat> we have a couple of options re: this issue
we have a couple of options re: this issue ←
09:02:06 <mischat> 1: Leave it undefined (abstract syntax only)
1: Leave it undefined (abstract syntax only) ←
09:02:13 <Zakim> + +1.408.642.aaff
Zakim IRC Bot: + +1.408.642.aaff ←
09:02:14 <mischat> 2: or we could define it
2: or we could define it ←
09:02:25 <davidwood> q?
David Wood: q? ←
09:02:44 <davidwood> q?
David Wood: q? ←
09:02:59 <yvesr> cygri: "is a person a g-box?"
Richard Cyganiak: "is a person a g-box?" [ Scribe Assist by Yves Raimond ] ←
09:03:06 <mischat> there are issues there re: scoping the terminologies used
there are issues there re: scoping the terminologies used ←
09:03:10 <zwu2> zakim, mute me
09:03:10 <Zakim> sorry, zwu2, I do not know which phone connection belongs to you
Zakim IRC Bot: sorry, zwu2, I do not know which phone connection belongs to you ←
09:03:50 <zwu2> zakim, +408.642.aaff is zwu2
Zhe Wu: zakim, +408.642.aaff is zwu2 ←
09:03:50 <Zakim> sorry, zwu2, I do not recognize a party named '+408.642.aaff'
Zakim IRC Bot: sorry, zwu2, I do not recognize a party named '+408.642.aaff' ←
09:03:57 <Zakim> +OlivierCorby.a
Zakim IRC Bot: +OlivierCorby.a ←
09:04:04 <ivan> zakim, aaff is zwu2
Ivan Herman: zakim, aaff is zwu2 ←
09:04:04 <Zakim> +zwu2; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +zwu2; got it ←
09:04:10 <zwu2> thanks ivan
09:04:14 <mischat> issue-17: graph merging
09:04:14 <trackbot> ISSUE-17 How are RDF datasets to be merged? notes added
Trackbot IRC Bot: ISSUE-17 How are RDF datasets to be merged? notes added ←
09:04:18 <zwu2> zakim, mute me
09:04:18 <Zakim> zwu2 should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: zwu2 should now be muted ←
09:04:20 <yvesr> in n3, there is a property in between the graph and the IRI, which makes that relationship explicit
Yves Raimond: in n3, there is a property in between the graph and the IRI, which makes that relationship explicit ←
09:04:24 <mischat> there are issues re: blank nodes and merging
there are issues re: blank nodes and merging ←
09:04:34 <mischat> and what would happen when merging graph datasets
and what would happen when merging graph datasets ←
09:05:20 <mischat> Guus: thinks that the main issue with extending RDF Semantics will be re: RDF merge, and posed as a question to peter
Guus Schreiber: thinks that the main issue with extending RDF Semantics will be re: RDF merge, and posed as a question to peter ←
09:05:47 <mischat> peter doesn't know what exactly what is needed, sparql has a notion of graph merge
peter doesn't know what exactly what is needed, sparql has a notion of graph merge ←
09:06:00 <mischat> ivan: we are informally bound by what sparql does
Ivan Herman: we are informally bound by what sparql does ←
09:06:25 <mischat> Guus: we should make sure that sparql and rdf align
Guus Schreiber: we should make sure that sparql and rdf align ←
09:06:47 <mischat> issue-21 : sharing Node IDs
09:07:06 <mischat> nodeId being bnode identifer
nodeId being bnode identifer ←
09:08:12 <mischat> cygri: the issue talks about the same bnode identifier in a quad based a trig file, how are the bnodes to be scoped ?
Richard Cyganiak: the issue talks about the same bnode identifier in a quad based a trig file, how are the bnodes to be scoped ? ←
09:10:14 <mischat> davidwood: thinks that we are going to be making strong statements about scoping bnodes and pushing it up to the RDF standards, but we should make sure that what we do doesn't break implementations
David Wood: thinks that we are going to be making strong statements about scoping bnodes and pushing it up to the RDF standards, but we should make sure that what we do doesn't break implementations ←
09:11:23 <mischat> issue-22 (empty graph)
09:11:53 <mischat> the issue is asking what we should be doing in terms of multi-graph support and empty graphs
the issue is asking what we should be doing in terms of multi-graph support and empty graphs ←
09:12:05 <mischat> trig, nquads, and sparql all do something different
trig, nquads, and sparql all do something different ←
09:12:13 <mischat> issue-23 (multigraph media types)
ISSUE-23 (multigraph media types) ←
09:13:00 <mischat> the issue asks whether we should change mime-types if we add graphs to existing serialisations
the issue asks whether we should change mime-types if we add graphs to existing serialisations ←
09:13:16 <Danbri> q+ to ask (no rush) re graph literal datatypes, whether a media types-as-Uris would be better than just defining our own for rdf syntaxes
Dan Brickley: q+ to ask (no rush) re graph literal datatypes, whether a media types-as-Uris would be better than just defining our own for rdf syntaxes ←
09:13:43 <mischat> issues: discussion volume : Graph Literals was the most talked about issue in the named graph tf
issues: discussion volume : Graph Literals was the most talked about issue in the named graph tf ←
09:14:00 <mischat> davidwood: asked about consensus re: graph literals
David Wood: asked about consensus re: graph literals ←
09:14:47 <mischat> cygri: candidate issues : Do we need nesting of graphs ?
Richard Cyganiak: candidate issues : Do we need nesting of graphs ? ←
09:15:16 <mischat> what is "nesting of graphs" ?
what is "nesting of graphs" ? ←
09:15:22 <mischat> could we have an example
could we have an example ←
09:15:42 <mischat> cygri: thinks that is would be hard to do without the graph literals
Richard Cyganiak: thinks that is would be hard to do without the graph literals ←
09:15:56 <mischat> ivan: essentially this is a syntax issue
Ivan Herman: essentially this is a syntax issue ←
09:17:04 <mischat> in the nested graph, or graph literals dont need to have a named graph
in the nested graph, or graph literals dont need to have a named graph ←
09:17:59 <mischat> we are about to create a new issue
we are about to create a new issue ←
09:18:32 <mischat> cygri: we don't know that the question is right now
Richard Cyganiak: we don't know that the question is right now ←
09:19:07 <Zakim> +OlivierCorby.aa
Zakim IRC Bot: +OlivierCorby.aa ←
09:19:10 <mischat> yvesr: states we need to have use-cases for the "nesting of graphs"
Yves Raimond: states we need to have use-cases for the "nesting of graphs" ←
09:19:37 <mischat> danbri: wonders whether it is a syntax question
Dan Brickley: wonders whether it is a syntax question ←
09:20:17 <sandro> ISSUE: Do we need syntactic nesting of graphs (g-texts) as in N3?
ISSUE: Do we need syntactic nesting of graphs (g-texts) as in N3? ←
09:20:18 <trackbot> Created ISSUE-28 - Do we need syntactic nesting of graphs (g-texts) as in N3? ; please complete additional details at http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/issues/28/edit .
Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ISSUE-28 - Do we need syntactic nesting of graphs (g-texts) as in N3? ; please complete additional details at http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/issues/28/edit . ←
09:20:25 <mischat> SteveH: thinks that it would be a syntax issue only if graphs with nesting could be serialised into some non-nesting serialisation such as turtle
Steve Harris: thinks that it would be a syntax issue only if graphs with nesting could be serialised into some non-nesting serialisation such as turtle ←
09:21:15 <mischat> davidwood: an open-issue re: how do we refer to graphs
David Wood: an open-issue re: how do we refer to graphs ←
09:21:38 <mischat> cygri: asked how do you name a graph
Richard Cyganiak: asked how do you name a graph ←
09:21:40 <Danbri> Of course we could nest multiple-graphs too ("here are the quads I downloaded from .... Yesterday")
Dan Brickley: Of course we could nest multiple-graphs too ("here are the quads I downloaded from .... Yesterday") ←
09:22:07 <mischat> cygri: goes back to issue-15 and asks whether that covers dave's issue
Richard Cyganiak: goes back to ISSUE-15 and asks whether that covers dave's issue ←
09:22:43 <mischat> cygri: next proposed issue, do we need a "default graph" ?
Richard Cyganiak: next proposed issue, do we need a "default graph" ? ←
09:23:02 <mischat> do we need to align with sparql, but we definitely need to define what a default graph is
do we need to align with sparql, but we definitely need to define what a default graph is ←
09:23:33 <Danbri> (default graph for The Web? :)
Dan Brickley: (default graph for The Web? :) ←
09:24:20 <mischat> davidwood: believes that AndyS's point re: "default graph" is that we should not be throwing away early thinking in terms of allowing people to define their own notion of default graph
David Wood: believes that AndyS's point re: "default graph" is that we should not be throwing away early thinking in terms of allowing people to define their own notion of default graph ←
09:25:19 <mischat> Guus: two important alignment issues with SPARQL, how do RDF datasets related to g-boxes and more specifically what is the relation between SPARQL's default graph and default graphs in RDF
Guus Schreiber: two important alignment issues with SPARQL, how do RDF datasets related to g-boxes and more specifically what is the relation between SPARQL's default graph and default graphs in RDF ←
09:26:06 <mischat> Guus and cygri would like an issue with alignment default graph from sparql
Guus and cygri would like an issue with alignment default graph from sparql ←
09:26:24 <mischat> peter would argue against the default graph
peter would argue against the default graph ←
09:26:49 <davidwood> q?
David Wood: q? ←
09:26:56 <davidwood> ack Danbri
David Wood: ack Danbri ←
09:26:56 <Zakim> Danbri, you wanted to ask (no rush) re graph literal datatypes, whether a media types-as-Uris would be better than just defining our own for rdf syntaxes
Zakim IRC Bot: Danbri, you wanted to ask (no rush) re graph literal datatypes, whether a media types-as-Uris would be better than just defining our own for rdf syntaxes ←
09:27:14 <mischat> danbri: what would count towards to qualifying a triplestore dump in terms of default graph
Dan Brickley: what would count towards to qualifying a triplestore dump in terms of default graph ←
09:27:41 <sandro> steve: the SPARQL WG has backed itself into a corner wrt defaults.
Steve Harris: the SPARQL WG has backed itself into a corner wrt defaults. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
09:27:56 <sandro> pfps: give it a name, but throw the name away when you're done
Peter Patel-Schneider: give it a name, but throw the name away when you're done [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
09:27:57 <mischat> SteveH: says that the sparql group doesn't have a set resolution for this stuff
Steve Harris: says that the sparql group doesn't have a set resolution for this stuff ←
09:28:35 <pgroth> hey sandro, after the end of this discussion am I allowed to raise issues as an observer?
Paul Groth: hey sandro, after the end of this discussion am I allowed to raise issues as an observer? ←
09:28:40 <pgroth> or anybody
Paul Groth: or anybody ←
09:28:43 <Danbri> q?
Dan Brickley: q? ←
09:28:48 <mischat> cygri thinks there should be a relation between sparql's dataset, default graph
cygri thinks there should be a relation between sparql's dataset, default graph ←
09:29:00 <sandro> ISSUE: Do we support SPARQL's notion of "default graph"?
ISSUE: Do we support SPARQL's notion of "default graph"? ←
09:29:00 <trackbot> Created ISSUE-29 - Do we support SPARQL's notion of "default graph"? ; please complete additional details at http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/issues/29/edit .
Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ISSUE-29 - Do we support SPARQL's notion of "default graph"? ; please complete additional details at http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/issues/29/edit . ←
09:29:26 <sandro> ISSUE: How does SPARQL's notion of RDF dataset relate our notion of multiple graphs?
ISSUE: How does SPARQL's notion of RDF dataset relate our notion of multiple graphs? ←
09:29:27 <trackbot> Created ISSUE-30 - How does SPARQL's notion of RDF dataset relate our notion of multiple graphs? ; please complete additional details at http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/issues/30/edit .
Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ISSUE-30 - How does SPARQL's notion of RDF dataset relate our notion of multiple graphs? ; please complete additional details at http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/issues/30/edit . ←
09:29:46 <Danbri> Davidwood, zakim had an earlier q queued from me re graph literals - happy to defer if this is wrong point for it
Dan Brickley: Davidwood, zakim had an earlier q queued from me re graph literals - happy to defer if this is wrong point for it ←
09:29:47 <mischat> two separate issues : 'Do we support SPARQL's notion of "default graph"', and how does 'How does SPARQL's notion of RDF dataset relate our notion of multiple graphs'?
two separate issues : 'Do we support SPARQL's notion of "default graph"', and how does 'How does SPARQL's notion of RDF dataset relate our notion of multiple graphs'? ←
09:30:02 <mischat> cygri: asks do we NEED a concrete syntax for multi-graphs
Richard Cyganiak: asks do we NEED a concrete syntax for multi-graphs ←
09:30:41 <mischat> cygri: says that the charter talks about lots of syntax related work, does this need to be pushed upstream and do we need to standardise this concrete syntax
Richard Cyganiak: says that the charter talks about lots of syntax related work, does this need to be pushed upstream and do we need to standardise this concrete syntax ←
09:30:47 <Zakim> +OlivierCorby.aaa
Zakim IRC Bot: +OlivierCorby.aaa ←
09:30:58 <davidwood> Danbri: Please cover that when the list of candidate issues has been cleared, but before we move onto a new topic.
Dan Brickley: Please cover that when the list of candidate issues has been cleared, but before we move onto a new topic. [ Scribe Assist by David Wood ] ←
09:31:24 <Danbri> Fx
Dan Brickley: Fx ←
09:31:27 <Danbri> Er
Dan Brickley: Er ←
09:31:29 <Danbri> Tx
Dan Brickley: Tx ←
09:31:46 <sandro> ISSUE: Do we produce a standard (REC) syntax for conveying multiple graphs?
ISSUE: Do we produce a standard (REC) syntax for conveying multiple graphs? ←
09:31:46 <trackbot> Created ISSUE-31 - Do we produce a standard (REC) syntax for conveying multiple graphs? ; please complete additional details at http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/issues/31/edit .
Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ISSUE-31 - Do we produce a standard (REC) syntax for conveying multiple graphs? ; please complete additional details at http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/issues/31/edit . ←
09:31:52 <mischat> SteveH: asks where should this work be standardised
Steve Harris: asks where should this work be standardised ←
09:32:54 <mischat> cygri: asks whether the potential Reification deprecation should live in the cleanup tasks, or should it be in the graph's TF
Richard Cyganiak: asks whether the potential Reification deprecation should live in the cleanup tasks, or should it be in the graph's TF ←
09:33:42 <mischat> ivan: and sandro think that the reification cleanup will be scoped out properly depending on the outcomes of the graphs tf
Ivan Herman: and sandro think that the reification cleanup will be scoped out properly depending on the outcomes of the graphs tf ←
09:34:00 <mischat> cygri: now lists the minimal work to get to what the charter states
Richard Cyganiak: now lists the minimal work to get to what the charter states ←
09:34:26 <mischat> 1. Lift SPARQL's RDF Dataset into RDF Concepts and Abstract Syntax
1. Lift SPARQL's RDF Dataset into RDF Concepts and Abstract Syntax ←
09:34:48 <mischat> 2. Evaluate additional possible features based on use cases
2. Evaluate additional possible features based on use cases ←
09:35:02 <mischat> 3 Do not define a concrete syntax
3 Do not define a concrete syntax ←
09:35:18 <mischat> 4 If we MUST have a concrete syntax standardize N-Quads
4 If we MUST have a concrete syntax standardize N-Quads ←
09:35:33 <mischat> 5 Avoid multigraphs in RDF/XML, JSON, Turtle, and rdfa
5 Avoid multigraphs in RDF/XML, JSON, Turtle, and rdfa ←
09:35:42 <pgroth> I would like to raise the following three issues, if I'm allowed:
Paul Groth: I would like to raise the following three issues, if I'm allowed: ←
09:36:08 <pgroth> 1) Can g-snaps be identified?
Paul Groth: 1) Can g-snaps be identified? ←
09:36:19 <zwu2> like the N-quad idea
Zhe Wu: like the N-quad idea ←
09:37:13 <pgroth> 2) can the working group define which kinds of graphs are considered a resource
Paul Groth: 2) can the working group define which kinds of graphs are considered a resource ←
09:38:11 <mischat> danbri: has a question re: graph literals, maintenance, and what you would have to do. Would you require to mint a new URI for each media-type to support graph literals, danbri wonders whether we would just be recreating the mime-type registry
Dan Brickley: has a question re: graph literals, maintenance, and what you would have to do. Would you require to mint a new URI for each media-type to support graph literals, danbri wonders whether we would just be recreating the mime-type registry ←
09:39:11 <danbri> q+ to ask what form of advice we ought to be offering to http://www.w3.org/2011/01/rdfa-wg-charter.html
Dan Brickley: q+ to ask what form of advice we ought to be offering to http://www.w3.org/2011/01/rdfa-wg-charter.html ←
09:39:17 <pfps> Scribe: pfps
(Scribe set to Peter Patel-Schneider)
09:39:57 <pfps> Guus: can we work in the issue list?
Guus Schreiber: can we work in the issue list? ←
09:40:00 <sandro> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/products/1
Sandro Hawke: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/products/1 ←
09:40:36 <pfps> pgroth: what about identification of all the various g-strings?
Paul Groth: what about identification of all the various g-strings? ←
09:40:41 <sandro> pgroth: Can g-snaps be identifies or just g-boxes?
Paul Groth: Can g-snaps be identifies or just g-boxes? [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
09:40:43 <FabGandon> q+ to talk about concrete syntax and use cases and RDF/XML
Fabien Gandon: q+ to talk about concrete syntax and use cases and RDF/XML ←
09:40:53 <mischat> pgroth: is talking about this issue, which i forwared to the list : http://www.w3.org/mid/26C7BD9A-B3D9-45BD-984F-8D302C52F164@garlik.com
Paul Groth: is talking about this issue, which i forwared to the list : http://www.w3.org/mid/26C7BD9A-B3D9-45BD-984F-8D302C52F164@garlik.com [ Scribe Assist by Mischa Tuffield ] ←
09:41:39 <pfps> cygri: this depends on the relationship between an IRI and the "graph"
Richard Cyganiak: this depends on the relationship between an IRI and the "graph" ←
09:41:46 <danbri> (re URIs for mediatypes, see prev discussion http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/uri/2011Mar/0006.html http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/uri/2011Mar/0002.html )
Dan Brickley: (re URIs for mediatypes, see prev discussion http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/uri/2011Mar/0006.html http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/uri/2011Mar/0002.html ) ←
09:41:53 <sandro> cygri: graph literal is one way to do that. another is that maybe with named graphs is iris identifiy g-snaos. another is immutable g-boxes.
Richard Cyganiak: graph literal is one way to do that. another is that maybe with named graphs is iris identifiy g-snaos. another is immutable g-boxes. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
09:41:58 <pfps> cygri: does the IRI refer to the g-box or the g-snap, or whatever
Richard Cyganiak: does the IRI refer to the g-box or the g-snap, or whatever ←
09:42:38 <pfps> pgroth: Provenance WG happy to defer to the RDF WG for a solution, but we want something
Paul Groth: Provenance WG happy to defer to the RDF WG for a solution, but we want something ←
09:42:49 <mischat> sorry pchampin 1 sec
Mischa Tuffield: sorry pchampin 1 sec ←
09:42:51 <sandro> ISSUE: Can we identify both g-boxes and g-snaps?
ISSUE: Can we identify both g-boxes and g-snaps? ←
09:42:51 <trackbot> Created ISSUE-32 - Can we identify both g-boxes and g-snaps? ; please complete additional details at http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/issues/32/edit .
Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ISSUE-32 - Can we identify both g-boxes and g-snaps? ; please complete additional details at http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/issues/32/edit . ←
09:43:09 <pfps> davidwood: what about using timestamps to fix the value of a changing g-box
David Wood: what about using timestamps to fix the value of a changing g-box ←
09:43:23 <mischat> q+ on the provenance WG
Mischa Tuffield: q+ on the provenance WG ←
09:43:44 <pfps> pgroth: Provenance needs a language for the provenance of resources
Paul Groth: Provenance needs a language for the provenance of resources ←
09:44:02 <ww> suggestion: uuid for fixing value of changing g-box rather than timestamp
William Waites: suggestion: uuid for fixing value of changing g-box rather than timestamp ←
09:44:10 <mischat> pchampin: i sent an email to the list today, my mail headers claim this is the URI, but it 404's for me too : http://www.w3.org/mid/26C7BD9A-B3D9-45BD-984F-8D302C52F164@garlik.com <-- sorry
Pierre-Antoine Champin: i sent an email to the list today, my mail headers claim this is the URI, but it 404's for me too : http://www.w3.org/mid/26C7BD9A-B3D9-45BD-984F-8D302C52F164@garlik.com <-- sorry [ Scribe Assist by Mischa Tuffield ] ←
09:45:35 <pchampin> pchampin: not sure I understand what "provenance of a resource" means...
Pierre-Antoine Champin: not sure I understand what "provenance of a resource" means... [ Scribe Assist by Pierre-Antoine Champin ] ←
09:46:15 <Zakim> +OlivierCorby.aaaa
Zakim IRC Bot: +OlivierCorby.aaaa ←
09:46:18 <pfps> scribe note: provenance of resources -> provenance of resources that are graphs
scribe note: provenance of resources -> provenance of resources that are graphs ←
09:46:37 <mischat> http://www.w3.org/2011/01/prov-wg-charter <-- provenance WG charter
Mischa Tuffield: http://www.w3.org/2011/01/prov-wg-charter <-- provenance WG charter ←
09:46:54 <ww> provenance of a document makes sense... provenance of a resource is harder to pin down i think
William Waites: provenance of a document makes sense... provenance of a resource is harder to pin down i think ←
09:47:27 <ww> a g-snap being a certain kind of resource more like a document where it also makes sense...
William Waites: a g-snap being a certain kind of resource more like a document where it also makes sense... ←
09:47:43 <pfps> pgroth: provenance graphs can be relative to a particular viewpoint - which might involve part of a particular g-snap
Paul Groth: provenance graphs can be relative to a particular viewpoint - which might involve part of a particular g-snap ←
09:48:04 <ww> provenance of the resource that is my cup of coffee is more complicated and probably out of scope
William Waites: provenance of the resource that is my cup of coffee is more complicated and probably out of scope ←
09:48:06 <sandro> pgroth: Is there a way to select and refer to a subset of a g-snap?
Paul Groth: Is there a way to select and refer to a subset of a g-snap? [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
09:48:16 <sandro> mischat: ... or individual triples.
Mischa Tuffield: ... or individual triples. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
09:48:28 <pfps> mischat: also from provenance - want to talk about particular triples
Mischa Tuffield: also from provenance - want to talk about particular triples ←
09:48:52 <ww> to talk about a particular triple is to talk about a graph of size 1, no?
William Waites: to talk about a particular triple is to talk about a graph of size 1, no? ←
09:48:56 <pfps> davidwood: provenance issues can result in very many graphs (e.g., hundreds of thousands)
David Wood: provenance issues can result in very many graphs (e.g., hundreds of thousands) ←
09:49:01 <ww> or is there a salient difference?
William Waites: or is there a salient difference? ←
09:49:14 <danbri> eg. https://github.com/tinkerpop/blueprints/wiki/ has per-triple annotation in a graph API
Dan Brickley: eg. https://github.com/tinkerpop/blueprints/wiki/ has per-triple annotation in a graph API ←
09:49:19 <pfps> pgroth: yes, e.g., creating a named graph for each triple
Paul Groth: yes, e.g., creating a named graph for each triple ←
09:50:07 <sandro> ISSUE: Do we provide a way to refer to sub-graphs and/or individual triples?
ISSUE: Do we provide a way to refer to sub-graphs and/or individual triples? ←
09:50:07 <trackbot> Created ISSUE-33 - Do we provide a way to refer to sub-graphs and/or individual triples? ; please complete additional details at http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/issues/33/edit .
Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ISSUE-33 - Do we provide a way to refer to sub-graphs and/or individual triples? ; please complete additional details at http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/issues/33/edit . ←
09:50:26 <ww> need some kind of inhertance - don't need to materialise graphs for each triple, just imply them, and they inherit the provenance information that makes sense from their super-graph
William Waites: need some kind of inhertance - don't need to materialise graphs for each triple, just imply them, and they inherit the provenance information that makes sense from their super-graph ←
09:50:36 <pfps> danbri: some (many?) graph stores allow access to things like individual triples (as graphs)
Dan Brickley: some (many?) graph stores allow access to things like individual triples (as graphs) ←
09:51:41 <danbri> the example I give is https://github.com/tinkerpop/blueprints/wiki/Property-Graph-Model ...they have written adaptors for a number of graph stores- https://github.com/tinkerpop/blueprints/wiki/Implementations
Dan Brickley: the example I give is https://github.com/tinkerpop/blueprints/wiki/Property-Graph-Model ...they have written adaptors for a number of graph stores- https://github.com/tinkerpop/blueprints/wiki/Implementations ←
09:51:53 <pfps> pgroth: does the WG need an issue about individual triples as graphs, etc.
Paul Groth: does the WG need an issue about individual triples as graphs, etc. ←
09:52:06 <pfps> guus: let's wait until we determine whether it is needed
Guus Schreiber: let's wait until we determine whether it is needed ←
09:52:34 <pfps> mischat: there are many other related issues, like signatures
Mischa Tuffield: there are many other related issues, like signatures ←
09:52:39 <pfps> ivan: signatures are out of scope
Ivan Herman: signatures are out of scope ←
09:53:01 <pfps> mischat: what about ordering of triples in a graph
Mischa Tuffield: what about ordering of triples in a graph ←
09:53:21 <pfps> ivan: syntax may provide an answer
Ivan Herman: syntax may provide an answer ←
09:53:23 <danbri> graph stores that have per-edge annotation: https://github.com/tinkerpop/blueprints/wiki/Neo4j-Implementation https://github.com/tinkerpop/blueprints/wiki/OrientDB-Implementation https://github.com/tinkerpop/blueprints/wiki/Dex-Implementation
Dan Brickley: graph stores that have per-edge annotation: https://github.com/tinkerpop/blueprints/wiki/Neo4j-Implementation https://github.com/tinkerpop/blueprints/wiki/OrientDB-Implementation https://github.com/tinkerpop/blueprints/wiki/Dex-Implementation ←
09:53:49 <ww> if signatures were in scope, defining an ordering to compute the signature would make sense, but generally there is no ordering, right?
William Waites: if signatures were in scope, defining an ordering to compute the signature would make sense, but generally there is no ordering, right? ←
09:54:06 <pfps> sandro: the SPARQL construct can (and often does) create small graphs, including individual triples
Sandro Hawke: the SPARQL construct can (and often does) create small graphs, including individual triples ←
09:54:07 <danbri> rrsagent, pointer?
Dan Brickley: rrsagent, pointer? ←
09:54:07 <RRSAgent> See http://www.w3.org/2011/04/13-rdf-wg-irc#T09-54-07
RRSAgent IRC Bot: See http://www.w3.org/2011/04/13-rdf-wg-irc#T09-54-07 ←
09:54:15 <sandro> agreed, ww
Sandro Hawke: agreed, ww ←
09:54:31 <Guus> q?
Guus Schreiber: q? ←
09:54:48 <Guus> q?
Guus Schreiber: q? ←
09:54:52 <pfps> davidwood: we may need to worry about distinguishing between the various g-* when naming
David Wood: we may need to worry about distinguishing between the various g-* when naming ←
09:54:57 <mischat> q-
Mischa Tuffield: q- ←
09:55:08 <pfps> zakim, who is here?
zakim, who is here? ←
09:55:08 <Zakim> On the phone I see gavinc, tomayac, Meeting_Room, OlivierCorby, AZ (muted), zwu2 (muted), OlivierCorby.a, OlivierCorby.aa, OlivierCorby.aaa, OlivierCorby.aaaa
Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see gavinc, tomayac, Meeting_Room, OlivierCorby, AZ (muted), zwu2 (muted), OlivierCorby.a, OlivierCorby.aa, OlivierCorby.aaa, OlivierCorby.aaaa ←
09:55:11 <Zakim> Meeting_Room has David, Wood, Sandro, Mateo, Steve, Harris, Fabien, Pierre, Antoine, Cygri, Yves, Nick, Jean-François, Jan, PFPS, Paul, Groth, Chris, Matheus, Dan, Brickley,
Zakim IRC Bot: Meeting_Room has David, Wood, Sandro, Mateo, Steve, Harris, Fabien, Pierre, Antoine, Cygri, Yves, Nick, Jean-François, Jan, PFPS, Paul, Groth, Chris, Matheus, Dan, Brickley, ←
09:55:13 <Zakim> ... Misha, Tuffield, Ivan
Zakim IRC Bot: ... Misha, Tuffield, Ivan ←
09:55:21 <ww> per-edge annotation: actually the annotation is the predicate i think. two nodes make an edge (s,o), and the predicate labels the edge
William Waites: per-edge annotation: actually the annotation is the predicate i think. two nodes make an edge (s,o), and the predicate labels the edge ←
09:55:49 <ww> maybe the graph is a second lable for the edge
William Waites: maybe the graph is a second lable for the edge ←
09:55:59 <danbri> ivan, http://www.w3.org/2011/01/rdfa-wg-charter.html has ' The proposal for the group has now been accepted and the group operates under its final charter' but that link 404s
Dan Brickley: ivan, http://www.w3.org/2011/01/rdfa-wg-charter.html has ' The proposal for the group has now been accepted and the group operates under its final charter' but that link 404s ←
09:56:23 <ivan> danbri, reload
Ivan Herman: danbri, reload ←
09:56:39 <danbri> ack danbri
Dan Brickley: ack danbri ←
09:56:39 <Zakim> danbri, you wanted to ask what form of advice we ought to be offering to http://www.w3.org/2011/01/rdfa-wg-charter.html
Zakim IRC Bot: danbri, you wanted to ask what form of advice we ought to be offering to http://www.w3.org/2011/01/rdfa-wg-charter.html ←
09:56:39 <pfps> pchampin: SPARQL construct returns a g-text (sort of)
Pierre-Antoine Champin: SPARQL construct returns a g-text (sort of) ←
09:57:10 <sandro> davidwood: If you do a GET on an IRI and get a gtext, isnt that IRI naming a g-box? Well, if that IRI happens to be a SPARLQ-end-point plus SPARQL Construct Query, then you've just given a URI to a subgraph....
David Wood: If you do a GET on an IRI and get a gtext, isnt that IRI naming a g-box? Well, if that IRI happens to be a SPARLQ-end-point plus SPARQL Construct Query, then you've just given a URI to a subgraph.... [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
09:57:28 <pfps> danbri: what about RDF Web Applications group - they will make an API for RDF - what is the relationship to this WG?
Dan Brickley: what about RDF Web Applications group - they will make an API for RDF - what is the relationship to this WG? ←
09:57:42 <ww> davidwood, what about the same sparql operation with POST?
William Waites: davidwood, what about the same sparql operation with POST? ←
09:57:49 <pfps> cygri: This hasn't been discussed yet
Richard Cyganiak: This hasn't been discussed yet ←
09:58:17 <pchampin> @david: I have no problem with considering http://../sparql@construct... as identifying a g-box
Pierre-Antoine Champin: @david: I have no problem with considering http://../sparql@construct... as identifying a g-box ←
09:58:36 <pfps> ivan: the API may be just a simple as "IRIs can be used to retrieve a graph"
Ivan Herman: the API may be just a simple as "IRIs can be used to retrieve a graph" ←
09:58:54 <pfps> ivan: RDFa has no syntactic sugar for named graphs, and probably won't go there
Ivan Herman: RDFa has no syntactic sugar for named graphs, and probably won't go there ←
09:59:50 <pfps> danbri: does this WG need to provide something to the RDF Applications group
Dan Brickley: does this WG need to provide something to the RDF Applications group ←
09:59:56 <pfps> ivan: not necessarily
Ivan Herman: not necessarily ←
10:00:29 <FabGandon> ack FabGandon
Fabien Gandon: ack FabGandon ←
10:00:29 <Zakim> FabGandon, you wanted to talk about concrete syntax and use cases and RDF/XML
Zakim IRC Bot: FabGandon, you wanted to talk about concrete syntax and use cases and RDF/XML ←
10:00:42 <pfps> fabien: three questions
Fabien Gandon: three questions ←
10:00:54 <pfps> fabien: 1/ I want a concrete syntax - for provenance,
Fabien Gandon: 1/ I want a concrete syntax - for provenance, ←
10:01:14 <pfps> fabien: 2/ in many applications we use RDF/XML so we want named graphs in there
Fabien Gandon: 2/ in many applications we use RDF/XML so we want named graphs in there ←
10:01:44 <danbri> Guus/Davidwood, cygri ... I guess implicitly we resolve something like "this group does not believe it has specific items to deliver around RDF-Graph that impact the ability of the new RDF Web apps API group to make progress"
Dan Brickley: Guus/Davidwood, cygri ... I guess implicitly we resolve something like "this group does not believe it has specific items to deliver around RDF-Graph that impact the ability of the new RDF Web apps API group to make progress" ←
10:02:11 <pfps> guus: at Shanghai there was discussion on this, which lead to changes to the charter
Guus Schreiber: at Shanghai there was discussion on this, which lead to changes to the charter ←
10:02:51 <pfps> ivan: this WG can decide whether (or not) to touch RDF/XML (probably to create a new, superset)
Ivan Herman: this WG can decide whether (or not) to touch RDF/XML (probably to create a new, superset) ←
10:02:59 <danbri> RDFAPI charter = http://www.w3.org/2011/03/rdfwa-wg-charter "RDF API, Recommendation: This document will define a generic API for managing RDF data. "
Dan Brickley: RDFAPI charter = http://www.w3.org/2011/03/rdfwa-wg-charter "RDF API, Recommendation: This document will define a generic API for managing RDF data. " ←
10:03:02 <pfps> ivan: I don't know whether this is needed
Ivan Herman: I don't know whether this is needed ←
10:03:11 <pfps> guus: this might become a general issue
Guus Schreiber: this might become a general issue ←
10:03:57 <pfps> cygri: issue 23 talks to this, at least in a general sense
Richard Cyganiak: ISSUE-23 talks to this, at least in a general sense ←
10:04:38 <pfps> ivan: there might be other changes for RDF/XML, e.g., a schema-friendly version
Ivan Herman: there might be other changes for RDF/XML, e.g., a schema-friendly version ←
10:05:18 <pfps> ivan: I am afraid that changing RDF/XML would end up being a lot of effort
Ivan Herman: I am afraid that changing RDF/XML would end up being a lot of effort ←
10:05:33 <danbri> +1
Dan Brickley: +1 ←
10:05:48 <pfps> guus: we have to consider these issues
Guus Schreiber: we have to consider these issues ←
10:06:26 <zwu2> fabien, can n-quad satisfy your provenance requirements?
Zhe Wu: fabien, can n-quad satisfy your provenance requirements? ←
10:06:54 <danbri> Re XML -- we've had 13 or so years for the community to come up with a more beautiful XML notation for RDF. Nothing has emerged. Does anyone really think attempting that work in committee would improve things?
Dan Brickley: Re XML -- we've had 13 or so years for the community to come up with a more beautiful XML notation for RDF. Nothing has emerged. Does anyone really think attempting that work in committee would improve things? ←
10:06:57 <pfps> fabien: 3/ link to SPARQL construct - which produces RDF/XML, so augmenting RDF/XML might involve a link to the SPARQL WG
Fabien Gandon: 3/ link to SPARQL construct - which produces RDF/XML, so augmenting RDF/XML might involve a link to the SPARQL WG ←
10:07:10 <danbri> closest attempt http://www.w3.org/DesignIssues/Syntax.html "You can think of this syntax as Notation 2. A later syntax, Notation 3, was much more successful."
Dan Brickley: closest attempt http://www.w3.org/DesignIssues/Syntax.html "You can think of this syntax as Notation 2. A later syntax, Notation 3, was much more successful." ←
10:07:18 <pfps> cygri: I don't think that there would be a link here
Richard Cyganiak: I don't think that there would be a link here ←
10:07:43 <pfps> fabien: this might argue against extending RDF/XML
Fabien Gandon: this might argue against extending RDF/XML ←
10:08:01 <gavinc> The original named graph paper Jeremy Carroll, et al... had a method of describing named graphs in RDF/XML
Gavin Carothers: The original named graph paper Jeremy Carroll, et al... had a method of describing named graphs in RDF/XML ←
10:08:12 <danbri> + we had a *whole wg* creating GRDDL to map from idiomatic XML into RDF (anyone using GRRDL?)
Dan Brickley: + we had a *whole wg* creating GRDDL to map from idiomatic XML into RDF (anyone using GRRDL?) ←
10:08:14 <pfps> davidwood: if we want to change RDF/XML we need XML experts, and there are lots of other things that would end up on the table
David Wood: if we want to change RDF/XML we need XML experts, and there are lots of other things that would end up on the table ←
10:08:43 <pfps> ivan: there are also no proposals for any change in this area
Ivan Herman: there are also no proposals for any change in this area ←
10:08:54 <Zakim> -AZ
Zakim IRC Bot: -AZ ←
10:09:25 <pfps> pfps: no proposals for extending RDF/XML indicates that there is little need
Peter Patel-Schneider: no proposals for extending RDF/XML indicates that there is little need ←
10:09:39 <Zakim> +AZ
Zakim IRC Bot: +AZ ←
10:09:42 <pfps> guus: subsume changes to RDF/XML under Issue 23
Guus Schreiber: subsume changes to RDF/XML under ISSUE-23 ←
10:09:42 <danbri> (imho RDF/XML is a pain because RDF is a pain, not because RDF/XML is particularly poorly defined)
Dan Brickley: (imho RDF/XML is a pain because RDF is a pain, not because RDF/XML is particularly poorly defined) ←
10:11:13 <pfps> mischat: what is the relationship between quad syntaxes and SPARQL's (construct) view of the world
Mischa Tuffield: what is the relationship between quad syntaxes and SPARQL's (construct) view of the world ←
10:11:35 <pfps> guus: let's put this in as a note on some issue
Guus Schreiber: let's put this in as a note on some issue ←
10:11:39 <mischat> zakim.�, who is making noise ?
Mischa Tuffield: zakim.�, who is making noise ? ←
10:11:41 <ivan> zakim, who is noisy?
Ivan Herman: zakim, who is noisy? ←
10:11:52 <Zakim> ivan, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Meeting_Room (48%)
Zakim IRC Bot: ivan, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Meeting_Room (48%) ←
10:11:59 <danbri> zakim, who else is noisy?
Dan Brickley: zakim, who else is noisy? ←
10:11:59 <Zakim> I don't understand your question, danbri.
Zakim IRC Bot: I don't understand your question, danbri. ←
10:12:11 <Guus> q?
Guus Schreiber: q? ←
10:12:13 <pchampin> zakim, mute AZ
Pierre-Antoine Champin: zakim, mute AZ ←
10:12:13 <Zakim> AZ should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: AZ should now be muted ←
10:12:41 <pfps> cygri: note on issue 30
Richard Cyganiak: note on ISSUE-30 ←
10:12:58 <mischat> i will annotate issue-30
Mischa Tuffield: i will annotate ISSUE-30 ←
10:13:32 <pfps> guus: we appear to have a reasonable list of issues for graphs
Guus Schreiber: we appear to have a reasonable list of issues for graphs ←
10:13:48 <tomayac> gavinc: same here :-( back to normal now, though :-)
Gavin Carothers: same here :-( back to normal now, though :-) [ Scribe Assist by Thomas Steiner ] ←
10:14:00 <pfps> guus: what should we work on first?
Guus Schreiber: what should we work on first? ←
10:15:15 <NickH> wi4
Nicholas Humfrey: wi4 ←
10:15:59 <ww> re issue-33 - maybe there is something to be learned from the evopat work out of leipzig. given a graph and a sparql query, produce a sub-graph. that process in some sense identifies the sub-graph.
William Waites: re ISSUE-33 - maybe there is something to be learned from the evopat work out of leipzig. given a graph and a sparql query, produce a sub-graph. that process in some sense identifies the sub-graph. ←
10:16:02 <pfps> ivan: what are the notions that we want to standardize?
Ivan Herman: what are the notions that we want to standardize? ←
10:16:28 <pfps> ivan: let's start with Richard's minimum solution and then critique it
Ivan Herman: let's start with Richard's minimum solution and then critique it ←
10:18:18 <pfps> guus: the minimum solution has syntax considerations so let's start there - this is issue 31
Guus Schreiber: the minimum solution has syntax considerations so let's start there - this is ISSUE-31 ←
10:19:08 <pfps> guus: Richard had a solution for what to put in to Concepts to handle named graphs
Guus Schreiber: Richard had a solution for what to put in to Concepts to handle named graphs ←
10:19:11 <mischat> I added a note to http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/issues/30 re: construct and quads davidwood
Mischa Tuffield: I added a note to http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/issues/30 re: construct and quads davidwood ←
10:19:16 <pfps> cygri: there were comments on that
Richard Cyganiak: there were comments on that ←
10:20:03 <pfps> sandro: my biggest issue is 15 - what is the relationship between IRI and a graph, i.e., what is the basics for semantics of named graphs?
Sandro Hawke: my biggest issue is 15 - what is the relationship between IRI and a graph, i.e., what is the basics for semantics of named graphs? ←
10:20:19 <pfps> guus is writing down a list of important issues
guus is writing down a list of important issues ←
10:21:50 <ww> is it a common convention to name graphs with the uri of their "main" subject? doing so helps dereferencing...
William Waites: is it a common convention to name graphs with the uri of their "main" subject? doing so helps dereferencing... ←
10:21:55 <pfps> issue list - 30: SPARQL dataset; 5: graph literals; 31: syntax; 23: media types; 15: semantics
issue list - 30: SPARQL dataset; 5: graph literals; 31: syntax; 23: media types; 15: semantics ←
10:22:37 <pfps> sandro: we could also try to pick out a small number of motivating use cases
Sandro Hawke: we could also try to pick out a small number of motivating use cases ←
10:22:59 <zwu2> could not hear anything
Zhe Wu: could not hear anything ←
10:23:02 <pfps> guus: do we have all the critical issues
Guus Schreiber: do we have all the critical issues ←
10:23:19 <pfps> fabien: what about terminology?
Fabien Gandon: what about terminology? ←
10:23:38 <zwu2> Can somebody please check the phone?
Zhe Wu: Can somebody please check the phone? ←
10:23:52 <pfps> guus: we all agree that the concepts are OK, but the names (g-*) are temporary
Guus Schreiber: we all agree that the concepts are OK, but the names (g-*) are temporary ←
10:24:00 <Zakim> -tomayac
Zakim IRC Bot: -tomayac ←
10:24:03 <danbri> zakim, who is on the phone?
Dan Brickley: zakim, who is on the phone? ←
10:24:03 <Zakim> On the phone I see gavinc, Meeting_Room, OlivierCorby, zwu2 (muted), OlivierCorby.a, OlivierCorby.aa, OlivierCorby.aaa, OlivierCorby.aaaa, AZ (muted)
Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see gavinc, Meeting_Room, OlivierCorby, zwu2 (muted), OlivierCorby.a, OlivierCorby.aa, OlivierCorby.aaa, OlivierCorby.aaaa, AZ (muted) ←
10:24:06 <Zakim> Meeting_Room has David, Wood, Sandro, Mateo, Steve, Harris, Fabien, Pierre, Antoine, Cygri, Yves, Nick, Jean-François, Jan, PFPS, Paul, Groth, Chris, Matheus, Dan, Brickley,
Zakim IRC Bot: Meeting_Room has David, Wood, Sandro, Mateo, Steve, Harris, Fabien, Pierre, Antoine, Cygri, Yves, Nick, Jean-François, Jan, PFPS, Paul, Groth, Chris, Matheus, Dan, Brickley, ←
10:24:09 <Zakim> ... Misha, Tuffield, Ivan
Zakim IRC Bot: ... Misha, Tuffield, Ivan ←
10:24:13 <tomayac> (gavinc and tomayac got disconnected)
Thomas Steiner: (gavinc and tomayac got disconnected) ←
10:24:18 <Zakim> -zwu2
Zakim IRC Bot: -zwu2 ←
10:24:26 <danbri> anyone else on the phone that hears us?
Dan Brickley: anyone else on the phone that hears us? ←
10:24:36 <AZ> I can't hear anything now
Antoine Zimmermann: I can't hear anything now ←
10:24:37 <Zakim> +tomayac
Zakim IRC Bot: +tomayac ←
10:24:38 <mischat> can anyone hear us
Mischa Tuffield: can anyone hear us ←
10:24:38 <Zakim> -gavinc
Zakim IRC Bot: -gavinc ←
10:24:55 <Zakim> +zwu2
Zakim IRC Bot: +zwu2 ←
10:25:03 <tomayac> (dialed in again, but silence)
Thomas Steiner: (dialed in again, but silence) ←
10:25:12 <zwu2> silence for me too
10:25:34 <danbri> we won't be able to fix it immediately, it seems - sorry
Dan Brickley: we won't be able to fix it immediately, it seems - sorry ←
10:25:41 <Zakim> +gavinc
Zakim IRC Bot: +gavinc ←
10:26:09 <pfps> davidwood: can we close 14 now as being subsumed
David Wood: can we close 14 now as being subsumed ←
10:26:26 <pfps> guus: let's not do this just now - in any case it may not be completely subsumed
Guus Schreiber: let's not do this just now - in any case it may not be completely subsumed ←
10:26:36 <tomayac> ivan: thanks. i'll be around till about 13:30 CEST, then need to leave (you know why, feel free to let people know)
Ivan Herman: thanks. i'll be around till about 13:30 CEST, then need to leave (you know why, feel free to let people know) [ Scribe Assist by Thomas Steiner ] ←
10:26:45 <pfps> cygri: other actions all appear to be less major
Richard Cyganiak: other actions all appear to be less major ←
10:26:56 <pfps> guus: action 31 may also be less major
Guus Schreiber: ACTION-31 may also be less major ←
10:27:10 <Zakim> -Meeting_Room
Zakim IRC Bot: -Meeting_Room ←
10:28:19 <pfps> cygri: issue 28 appear to be subservient to issue 5
Richard Cyganiak: ISSUE-28 appear to be subservient to ISSUE-5 ←
10:28:22 <Zakim> +??P2
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P2 ←
10:28:31 <mischat> zakim, ??P2 is me
Mischa Tuffield: zakim, ??P2 is me ←
10:28:31 <Zakim> +mischat; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +mischat; got it ←
10:28:51 <zwu2> thanks
10:28:57 <pfps> cygri: issue 32 appears to be dependent on important one
Richard Cyganiak: ISSUE-32 appears to be dependent on important one ←
10:30:04 <pfps> guus: getting the issues out is an important goal
Guus Schreiber: getting the issues out is an important goal ←
10:30:32 <pfps> guus: the breakout should look at at least some of these issues and try to come up with potential solutions
Guus Schreiber: the breakout should look at at least some of these issues and try to come up with potential solutions ←
10:30:55 <pfps> guus: the breakout group should progress on
Guus Schreiber: the breakout group should progress on ←
10:32:32 <danbri> re graphs, ... http://www.w3.org/TR/swbp-n-aryRelations/#general Issue 1: If property instances can link only two individuals, how do we deal with cases where we need to describe the instances of relations, such as its certainty, strength, etc? ... do we expect to improve that situation?
Dan Brickley: re graphs, ... http://www.w3.org/TR/swbp-n-aryRelations/#general ISSUE-1: If property instances can link only two individuals, how do we deal with cases where we need to describe the instances of relations, such as its certainty, strength, etc? ... do we expect to improve that situation? ←
10:32:58 <tomayac> i'll be off for the whole afternoon :-( see you tomorrow. sorry to miss out.
Thomas Steiner: i'll be off for the whole afternoon :-( see you tomorrow. sorry to miss out. ←
10:33:19 <Zakim> -AZ
Zakim IRC Bot: -AZ ←
10:33:20 <Zakim> -OlivierCorby.aaaa
Zakim IRC Bot: -OlivierCorby.aaaa ←
10:33:48 <Zakim> -tomayac
Zakim IRC Bot: -tomayac ←
10:34:12 <Zakim> -zwu2
Zakim IRC Bot: -zwu2 ←
10:43:12 <ww> bon apetit everyone!
(No events recorded for 9 minutes)
William Waites: bon apetit everyone! ←
11:37:28 <mischat> can you guys still here us ?
(No events recorded for 54 minutes)
Mischa Tuffield: can you guys still here us ? ←
11:37:41 <mischat> i think the room is about to dial in now before we start
Mischa Tuffield: i think the room is about to dial in now before we start ←
11:37:41 <sandro> webcam running again.
Sandro Hawke: webcam running again. ←
11:38:16 <Zakim> +OlivierCorby.aaaa
Zakim IRC Bot: +OlivierCorby.aaaa ←
11:38:19 <Zakim> +Meeting_Room
Zakim IRC Bot: +Meeting_Room ←
11:38:27 <Zakim> -mischat
Zakim IRC Bot: -mischat ←
11:38:37 <mischat> gavinc: can you hear properly ?
Gavin Carothers: can you hear properly ? [ Scribe Assist by Mischa Tuffield ] ←
11:39:06 <pchampin> sandro: now speaking about deprecation
Sandro Hawke: now speaking about deprecation [ Scribe Assist by Pierre-Antoine Champin ] ←
11:39:36 <pchampin> in a computer contexte: recommend not to use something that WILL eventually be replaced
Pierre-Antoine Champin: in a computer contexte: recommend not to use something that WILL eventually be replaced ←
11:40:02 <pchampin> danbri proposed to use the word 'archaic' instead
Pierre-Antoine Champin: danbri proposed to use the word 'archaic' instead ←
11:40:08 <mischat> +1 to dan's language on this topic
Mischa Tuffield: +1 to dan's language on this topic ←
11:40:11 <pchampin> which does not imply replacement
Pierre-Antoine Champin: which does not imply replacement ←
11:40:27 <pchampin> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/ArchaicFeatures
Pierre-Antoine Champin: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/ArchaicFeatures ←
11:40:46 <danbri> (I proposed it mainly for vocabulary items; haven't thought about it so much for language-builtin / syntax / grammar aspects)
Dan Brickley: (I proposed it mainly for vocabulary items; haven't thought about it so much for language-builtin / syntax / grammar aspects) ←
11:41:19 <pchampin> ivan: what are the criteria to turn something into archaic' ?
Ivan Herman: what are the criteria to turn something into archaic' ? [ Scribe Assist by Pierre-Antoine Champin ] ←
11:41:23 <pchampin> (and what is the verb meaning 'turning something into archaic' ?)
Pierre-Antoine Champin: (and what is the verb meaning 'turning something into archaic' ?) ←
11:42:05 <pchampin> sandro : [quoting the proposed text of issue 10]
Pierre-Antoine Champin: sandro : [quoting the proposed text of ISSUE-10] ←
11:42:26 <pchampin> ivan: it does not answer my question
Ivan Herman: it does not answer my question [ Scribe Assist by Pierre-Antoine Champin ] ←
11:43:12 <gavinc> +1
Gavin Carothers: +1 ←
11:43:20 <pchampin> sandro: who likes proposal on issue-12?
Sandro Hawke: who likes proposal on ISSUE-12? [ Scribe Assist by Pierre-Antoine Champin ] ←
11:43:39 <pchampin> peter: there might be consequences with the semantics
Peter Patel-Schneider: there might be consequences with the semantics [ Scribe Assist by Pierre-Antoine Champin ] ←
11:43:53 <sandro> unanmous support
Sandro Hawke: unanymous support ←
11:44:01 <pchampin> s/unanmous/unanymous/
11:44:09 <pchampin> s/unanymous/unanimous/
11:46:02 <gavinc> PROPOSED: Mark xs:string as archaic for use in RDF, recommending use of plain literals instead. Recommend that systems silently convert xs:string data to plain literals.
PROPOSED: Mark xs:string as archaic for use in RDF, recommending use of plain literals instead. Recommend that systems silently convert xs:string data to plain literals. ←
11:46:03 <pchampin> sandro: maybe we should not settle on this right now given the short notice
Sandro Hawke: maybe we should not settle on this right now given the short notice [ Scribe Assist by Pierre-Antoine Champin ] ←
11:46:13 <sandro> +1
Sandro Hawke: +1 ←
11:46:19 <ivan> +1
Ivan Herman: +1 ←
11:46:25 <gavinc> +1
Gavin Carothers: +1 ←
11:46:25 <mischat> there was a straw-poll in the room asking if anyone objects to making the xs:string archaic
Mischa Tuffield: there was a straw-poll in the room asking if anyone objects to making the xs:string archaic ←
11:46:26 <pchampin> guss: we can make a resolution and change it if there are objections
Scribe problem: the name 'guss' does not match any of the 27 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Ivan Herman Mischa Tuffield Dan Brickley Christopher Matheus Peter Patel-Schneider Jan Wielemaker Jean-François Baget Nicholas Humfrey Yves Raimond Richard Cyganiak Pierre-Antoine Champin Fabien Gandon Steve Harris Matteo Brunati Sandro Hawke David Wood Guus Schreiber Antoine Zimmermann Gavin Carothers Thomas Steiner Zhe Wu Olivier Corby William Waites Paul Groth Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot
Unknown guss: we can make a resolution and change it if there are objections [ Scribe Assist by Pierre-Antoine Champin ] ←
11:46:26 <cygri> +1
Richard Cyganiak: +1 ←
11:46:27 <cmatheus> +1
Christopher Matheus: +1 ←
11:46:27 <NickH> +1
Nicholas Humfrey: +1 ←
11:46:28 <danbri> +1
Dan Brickley: +1 ←
11:46:28 <FabGandon> +1
Fabien Gandon: +1 ←
11:46:28 <mischat> +1
Mischa Tuffield: +1 ←
11:46:29 <pfps> +1
+1 ←
11:46:29 <davidwood> +1
David Wood: +1 ←
11:46:30 <pchampin> pchampin: +1
Pierre-Antoine Champin: +1 [ Scribe Assist by Pierre-Antoine Champin ] ←
11:46:50 <mischat> any objections ?
Mischa Tuffield: any objections ? ←
11:47:00 <sandro> RESOLVED: Mark xs:string as archaic for use in RDF, recommending use of plain literals instead. Recommend that systems silently convert xs:string data to plain literals.
RESOLVED: Mark xs:string as archaic for use in RDF, recommending use of plain literals instead. Recommend that systems silently convert xs:string data to plain literals. ←
11:47:07 <yvesr> +1
Yves Raimond: +1 ←
11:47:37 <davidwood> Yvesr: It is still minuted :)
Yves Raimond: It is still minuted :) [ Scribe Assist by David Wood ] ←
11:47:51 <SteveH> I was +1 too for hte record
Steve Harris: I was +1 too for hte record ←
11:48:00 <pchampin> peter: to do it right, we need to check whether it requires some check in the Semantics document
Peter Patel-Schneider: to do it right, we need to check whether it requires some check in the Semantics document [ Scribe Assist by Pierre-Antoine Champin ] ←
11:48:02 <sandro> action: peter to make sure the resolution to issue-12 gets into semantics document
ACTION: peter to make sure the resolution to ISSUE-12 gets into semantics document ←
11:48:03 <trackbot> Created ACTION-27 - Make sure the resolution to issue-12 gets into semantics document [on Peter Patel-Schneider - due 2011-04-20].
Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-27 - Make sure the resolution to ISSUE-12 gets into semantics document [on Peter Patel-Schneider - due 2011-04-20]. ←
11:48:30 <sandro> action: steve make sure issue-12 resolution gets to SPARQL
ACTION: steve make sure ISSUE-12 resolution gets to SPARQL ←
11:48:30 <trackbot> Created ACTION-28 - Make sure issue-12 resolution gets to SPARQL [on Steve Harris - due 2011-04-20].
Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-28 - Make sure ISSUE-12 resolution gets to SPARQL [on Steve Harris - due 2011-04-20]. ←
11:48:54 <pchampin> sandro: now talking about issue-13
Sandro Hawke: now talking about ISSUE-13 [ Scribe Assist by Pierre-Antoine Champin ] ←
11:49:24 <sandro> subtopic: issue-13
11:49:32 <gavinc> +q talk about rdf:XMLLiteral support in Jena, Raptor, 4Store, etc
Gavin Carothers: +q talk about rdf:XMLLiteral support in Jena, Raptor, 4Store, etc ←
11:49:44 <gavinc> +q to talk about rdf:XMLLiteral support in Jena, Raptor, 4Store, etc
Gavin Carothers: +q to talk about rdf:XMLLiteral support in Jena, Raptor, 4Store, etc ←
11:49:45 <pchampin> ivan: I hate XMLLiterals, but there are valid use cases (e.g. RSS)
Ivan Herman: I hate XMLLiterals, but there are valid use cases (e.g. RSS) [ Scribe Assist by Pierre-Antoine Champin ] ←
11:49:47 <sandro> q?
Sandro Hawke: q? ←
11:50:37 <SteveH> q+ to talk about canonicalisation
Steve Harris: q+ to talk about canonicalisation ←
11:51:31 <SteveH> q-
Steve Harris: q- ←
11:51:51 <sandro> cygri: Maybe just change the canonicalization
Richard Cyganiak: Maybe just change the canonicalization [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
11:51:55 <pchampin> jean-françois: back on issue 12, why not make it the other way? considering plain litteral as a shortcut for xsd:string?
Pierre-Antoine Champin: jean-françois: back on ISSUE-12, why not make it the other way? considering plain litteral as a shortcut for xsd:string? ←
11:52:17 <Zakim> +zwu2
Zakim IRC Bot: +zwu2 ←
11:53:05 <mischat> q?
Mischa Tuffield: q? ←
11:53:06 <pchampin> sandro: I'm surprised about RSS; I only occasionally looked at RSS, but I saw quoted XML, not XMLLiteral
Sandro Hawke: I'm surprised about RSS; I only occasionally looked at RSS, but I saw quoted XML, not XMLLiteral [ Scribe Assist by Pierre-Antoine Champin ] ←
11:53:20 <davidwood> ack gavinc
David Wood: ack gavinc ←
11:53:20 <Zakim> gavinc, you wanted to talk about rdf:XMLLiteral support in Jena, Raptor, 4Store, etc
Zakim IRC Bot: gavinc, you wanted to talk about rdf:XMLLiteral support in Jena, Raptor, 4Store, etc ←
11:53:38 <sandro> sandro: on reason to MAA xmlliteral is that they're often/usually broken
Sandro Hawke: on reason to MAA xmlliteral is that they're often/usually broken [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
11:53:41 <danbri> I'm not convinced by the RSS case; RSS1 preceeded xml:Literal by 4 years, and had lost out to RSS2 and Atom by time of RDFCore. Most RSS/Atom feeds are not RDF/XML these days.
Dan Brickley: I'm not convinced by the RSS case; RSS1 preceeded xml:Literal by 4 years, and had lost out to RSS2 and Atom by time of RDFCore. Most RSS/Atom feeds are not RDF/XML these days. ←
11:54:13 <pchampin> gavinc: are there any implementation that use XMLLiterals properly?
Gavin Carothers: are there any implementation that use XMLLiterals properly? [ Scribe Assist by Pierre-Antoine Champin ] ←
11:54:19 <sandro> gavin: I'm not convinced XMLLiterals will get any better.
Gavin Carothers: I'm not convinced XMLLiterals will get any better. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
11:55:04 <sandro> ivan: I'd rather we try to fix rdf:XMLLiteral
Ivan Herman: I'd rather we try to fix rdf:XMLLiteral [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
11:55:04 <pchampin> ivan: at the moment, I would prefer to postpone that and see whether the ambiguities of XMLLiteral, relative to canonicalization, can be fixed
Ivan Herman: at the moment, I would prefer to postpone that and see whether the ambiguities of XMLLiteral, relative to canonicalization, can be fixed [ Scribe Assist by Pierre-Antoine Champin ] ←
11:55:10 <sandro> q?
Sandro Hawke: q? ←
11:55:30 <pchampin> the current canonicalization are not clear on who must do what
Pierre-Antoine Champin: the current canonicalization are not clear on who must do what ←
11:56:05 <pchampin> I would be in favor or doing something cleaner IF we can
Pierre-Antoine Champin: I would be in favor or doing something cleaner IF we can ←
11:56:34 <pchampin> sandro: we can do a straw poll about either trying to fix XMLLiteral or dropping them
Sandro Hawke: we can do a straw poll about either trying to fix XMLLiteral or dropping them [ Scribe Assist by Pierre-Antoine Champin ] ←
11:56:43 <gavinc> in favor of archaic
Gavin Carothers: in favor of archaic ←
11:56:49 <sandro> sense of room --- try to fix it.
Sandro Hawke: sense of room --- try to fix it. ←
11:57:20 <pchampin> david: why would you mark it as archaic, peter
David Wood: why would you mark it as archaic, peter [ Scribe Assist by Pierre-Antoine Champin ] ←
11:57:29 <sandro> peter: MAA because it's implemented sooo badly. EG in interacting with OWL.
Peter Patel-Schneider: MAA because it's implemented sooo badly. EG in interacting with OWL. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
11:58:14 <pchampin> peter: requires any OWL parser to have a *working* XML canonicalizer
Peter Patel-Schneider: requires any OWL parser to have a *working* XML canonicalizer [ Scribe Assist by Pierre-Antoine Champin ] ←
11:58:30 <pchampin> subtopic: issue-24 Containers
11:58:35 <gavinc> also, HTML5 isn't XML ;) so droping it into RDF can't use XMLLiteral
Gavin Carothers: also, HTML5 isn't XML ;) so droping it into RDF can't use XMLLiteral ←
11:58:51 <mischat> do we want this : http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-rdf-syntax/#section-Syntax-list-elements
Mischa Tuffield: do we want this : http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-rdf-syntax/#section-Syntax-list-elements ←
11:59:11 <sandro> danbri: Bag is useless, Alt is incoherent, Seq doesn't bother me the same way.
Dan Brickley: Bag is useless, Alt is incoherent, Seq doesn't bother me the same way. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
11:59:32 <pchampin> ivan: there is a huge lot of RDF data out there that use containers
Ivan Herman: there is a huge lot of RDF data out there that use containers [ Scribe Assist by Pierre-Antoine Champin ] ←
11:59:34 <sandro> ivan: Lots of data using this, but that's okay.
Ivan Herman: Lots of data using this, but that's okay. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
11:59:53 <pchampin> david: we are not including lists, here
David Wood: we are not including lists, here [ Scribe Assist by Pierre-Antoine Champin ] ←
12:00:17 <sandro> steve: if rdf Collections were better, I'd be more okay with this.
Steve Harris: if rdf Collections were better, I'd be more okay with this. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
12:00:21 <sandro> q?
Sandro Hawke: q? ←
12:01:16 <pchampin> jean-françois: part of the problem is that they have no defined semantics
Pierre-Antoine Champin: jean-françois: part of the problem is that they have no defined semantics ←
12:01:36 <Zakim> + +1.617.553.aagg
Zakim IRC Bot: + +1.617.553.aagg ←
12:01:38 <LeeF> zakim, aagg is me
Scribe problem: the name 'LeeF' does not match any of the 27 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Ivan Herman Mischa Tuffield Dan Brickley Christopher Matheus Peter Patel-Schneider Jan Wielemaker Jean-François Baget Nicholas Humfrey Yves Raimond Richard Cyganiak Pierre-Antoine Champin Fabien Gandon Steve Harris Matteo Brunati Sandro Hawke David Wood Guus Schreiber Antoine Zimmermann Gavin Carothers Thomas Steiner Zhe Wu Olivier Corby William Waites Paul Groth Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot
Scribe problem: the name 'LeeF' does not match any of the 27 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Ivan Herman Mischa Tuffield Dan Brickley Christopher Matheus Peter Patel-Schneider Jan Wielemaker Jean-François Baget Nicholas Humfrey Yves Raimond Richard Cyganiak Pierre-Antoine Champin Fabien Gandon Steve Harris Matteo Brunati Sandro Hawke David Wood Guus Schreiber Antoine Zimmermann Gavin Carothers Thomas Steiner Zhe Wu Olivier Corby William Waites Paul Groth Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot
Unknown LeeF: zakim, aagg is me ←
12:01:38 <Zakim> +LeeF; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +LeeF; got it ←
12:01:40 <pchampin> it was planned for the future, but never done
Pierre-Antoine Champin: it was planned for the future, but never done ←
12:02:43 <pchampin> ivan: the container vocabulary contains all the rdf:_i terms, which are in infinite number
Ivan Herman: the container vocabulary contains all the rdf:_i terms, which are in infinite number [ Scribe Assist by Pierre-Antoine Champin ] ←
12:02:54 <pchampin> which causes trouble in the semantics
Pierre-Antoine Champin: which causes trouble in the semantics ←
12:03:21 <LeeF> RRSAgent, pointer?
Scribe problem: the name 'LeeF' does not match any of the 27 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Ivan Herman Mischa Tuffield Dan Brickley Christopher Matheus Peter Patel-Schneider Jan Wielemaker Jean-François Baget Nicholas Humfrey Yves Raimond Richard Cyganiak Pierre-Antoine Champin Fabien Gandon Steve Harris Matteo Brunati Sandro Hawke David Wood Guus Schreiber Antoine Zimmermann Gavin Carothers Thomas Steiner Zhe Wu Olivier Corby William Waites Paul Groth Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot
Scribe problem: the name 'LeeF' does not match any of the 27 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Ivan Herman Mischa Tuffield Dan Brickley Christopher Matheus Peter Patel-Schneider Jan Wielemaker Jean-François Baget Nicholas Humfrey Yves Raimond Richard Cyganiak Pierre-Antoine Champin Fabien Gandon Steve Harris Matteo Brunati Sandro Hawke David Wood Guus Schreiber Antoine Zimmermann Gavin Carothers Thomas Steiner Zhe Wu Olivier Corby William Waites Paul Groth Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot
Unknown LeeF: RRSAgent, pointer? ←
12:03:21 <RRSAgent> See http://www.w3.org/2011/04/13-rdf-wg-irc#T12-03-21
RRSAgent IRC Bot: See http://www.w3.org/2011/04/13-rdf-wg-irc#T12-03-21 ←
12:03:23 <pchampin> If we MAA (mark as archaic) them, we can simplify the semantics
Pierre-Antoine Champin: If we MAA (mark as archaic) them, we can simplify the semantics ←
12:03:25 <ericP> Zakim, please dial ericP-office
Scribe problem: the name 'ericP' does not match any of the 27 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Ivan Herman Mischa Tuffield Dan Brickley Christopher Matheus Peter Patel-Schneider Jan Wielemaker Jean-François Baget Nicholas Humfrey Yves Raimond Richard Cyganiak Pierre-Antoine Champin Fabien Gandon Steve Harris Matteo Brunati Sandro Hawke David Wood Guus Schreiber Antoine Zimmermann Gavin Carothers Thomas Steiner Zhe Wu Olivier Corby William Waites Paul Groth Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot
Scribe problem: the name 'ericP' does not match any of the 27 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Ivan Herman Mischa Tuffield Dan Brickley Christopher Matheus Peter Patel-Schneider Jan Wielemaker Jean-François Baget Nicholas Humfrey Yves Raimond Richard Cyganiak Pierre-Antoine Champin Fabien Gandon Steve Harris Matteo Brunati Sandro Hawke David Wood Guus Schreiber Antoine Zimmermann Gavin Carothers Thomas Steiner Zhe Wu Olivier Corby William Waites Paul Groth Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot
Unknown ericP: Zakim, please dial ericP-office ←
12:03:25 <Zakim> ok, ericP; the call is being made
Zakim IRC Bot: ok, ericP; the call is being made ←
12:03:27 <Zakim> +EricP
Zakim IRC Bot: +EricP ←
12:03:33 <ericP> Zakim, please disconnect ericP
Scribe problem: the name 'ericP' does not match any of the 27 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Ivan Herman Mischa Tuffield Dan Brickley Christopher Matheus Peter Patel-Schneider Jan Wielemaker Jean-François Baget Nicholas Humfrey Yves Raimond Richard Cyganiak Pierre-Antoine Champin Fabien Gandon Steve Harris Matteo Brunati Sandro Hawke David Wood Guus Schreiber Antoine Zimmermann Gavin Carothers Thomas Steiner Zhe Wu Olivier Corby William Waites Paul Groth Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot
Scribe problem: the name 'ericP' does not match any of the 27 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Ivan Herman Mischa Tuffield Dan Brickley Christopher Matheus Peter Patel-Schneider Jan Wielemaker Jean-François Baget Nicholas Humfrey Yves Raimond Richard Cyganiak Pierre-Antoine Champin Fabien Gandon Steve Harris Matteo Brunati Sandro Hawke David Wood Guus Schreiber Antoine Zimmermann Gavin Carothers Thomas Steiner Zhe Wu Olivier Corby William Waites Paul Groth Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot
Unknown ericP: Zakim, please disconnect ericP ←
12:03:33 <Zakim> EricP is being disconnected
Zakim IRC Bot: EricP is being disconnected ←
12:03:34 <Zakim> -EricP
Zakim IRC Bot: -EricP ←
12:04:04 <Zakim> +EricP
Zakim IRC Bot: +EricP ←
12:04:08 <pchampin> steve: there are several problems with them
Steve Harris: there are several problems with them [ Scribe Assist by Pierre-Antoine Champin ] ←
12:04:12 <pchampin> serializing them in turtle
Pierre-Antoine Champin: serializing them in turtle ←
12:04:19 <pchampin> no way to close them
Pierre-Antoine Champin: no way to close them ←
12:04:47 <pchampin> guus: is there a way to fix some of them?
Guus Schreiber: is there a way to fix some of them? [ Scribe Assist by Pierre-Antoine Champin ] ←
12:05:08 <danbri> soemthing like: "The originally specified meanings of rdf:Alt and rdf:Bag constructs have not proved generally useful; rdf:Seq has more utility, but shares some formal problems with the others. They are all considered archaic constructs."
Dan Brickley: soemthing like: "The originally specified meanings of rdf:Alt and rdf:Bag constructs have not proved generally useful; rdf:Seq has more utility, but shares some formal problems with the others. They are all considered archaic constructs." ←
12:05:25 <pchampin> sandro: on the other hand, they are handy with SPARQL
Sandro Hawke: on the other hand, they are handy with SPARQL [ Scribe Assist by Pierre-Antoine Champin ] ←
12:05:28 <mischat> does anyone want to keep rdf alt and rdf bag ?
Mischa Tuffield: does anyone want to keep rdf alt and rdf bag ? ←
12:05:38 <sandro> every want to bag Alt and Bag.
Sandro Hawke: every want to bag Alt and Bag. ←
12:06:26 <danbri> steveh, that list-as-datatype ... written up somewhere?
Dan Brickley: steveh, that list-as-datatype ... written up somewhere? ←
12:06:41 <SteveH> danbri, no
Steve Harris: danbri, no ←
12:06:42 <pchampin> ivan: we have to be careful vis a vis Adobe how we mention that alt is now archaic
Ivan Herman: we have to be careful vis a vis Adobe how we mention that alt is now archaic [ Scribe Assist by Pierre-Antoine Champin ] ←
12:07:24 <pchampin> XMP uses Alt and Seq
Pierre-Antoine Champin: XMP uses Alt and Seq ←
12:07:56 <danbri> q+ to suggest an action on ivan to blog this
Dan Brickley: q+ to suggest an action on ivan to blog this ←
12:08:10 <danbri> q-
Dan Brickley: q- ←
12:08:49 <pchampin> sandro: if we found a better way to do it, would you be ok to get rid of Seq?
Sandro Hawke: if we found a better way to do it, would you be ok to get rid of Seq? [ Scribe Assist by Pierre-Antoine Champin ] ←
12:09:16 <sandro> general sense that we should MAA rdf:Seq *if* we have a sensible alternative.
Sandro Hawke: general sense that we should MAA rdf:Seq *if* we have a sensible alternative. ←
12:09:23 <pchampin> [a majority of hands raised]
Pierre-Antoine Champin: [a majority of hands raised] ←
12:10:10 <danbri> q?
Dan Brickley: q? ←
12:10:13 <sandro> zakim, who is on the call?
Sandro Hawke: zakim, who is on the call? ←
12:10:13 <Zakim> On the phone I see OlivierCorby, OlivierCorby.a, OlivierCorby.aa, OlivierCorby.aaa, gavinc, OlivierCorby.aaaa, Meeting_Room, zwu2, LeeF, EricP
Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see OlivierCorby, OlivierCorby.a, OlivierCorby.aa, OlivierCorby.aaa, gavinc, OlivierCorby.aaaa, Meeting_Room, zwu2, LeeF, EricP ←
12:10:25 <pchampin> topic: Turtle TF
12:11:37 <pchampin> steve: Level of SPARQL compatibility (issue-1)
Steve Harris: Level of SPARQL compatibility (ISSUE-1) [ Scribe Assist by Pierre-Antoine Champin ] ←
12:11:52 <pchampin> keywords (prefix, base)
Pierre-Antoine Champin: keywords (prefix, base) ←
12:11:55 <pchampin> number handling
Pierre-Antoine Champin: number handling ←
12:12:30 <pchampin> (issue-18 what does "18." mean)
Pierre-Antoine Champin: (ISSUE-18 what does "18." mean) ←
12:12:47 <pchampin> yves: lots of parsers will return different things in Turtle
Yves Raimond: lots of parsers will return different things in Turtle [ Scribe Assist by Pierre-Antoine Champin ] ←
12:13:11 <pchampin> steve: the SPARQL solution is that "18." is a decimal
Steve Harris: the SPARQL solution is that "18." is a decimal [ Scribe Assist by Pierre-Antoine Champin ] ←
12:13:33 <pchampin> you need a space to put a dot after 18 as an int
Pierre-Antoine Champin: you need a space to put a dot after 18 as an int ←
12:14:04 <pchampin> sandro: I feel that the space before the dot is making it hard for people to adopt Turtle
Sandro Hawke: I feel that the space before the dot is making it hard for people to adopt Turtle [ Scribe Assist by Pierre-Antoine Champin ] ←
12:14:20 <pchampin> ivan: it makes it hard for me :) I always forget it
Ivan Herman: it makes it hard for me :) I always forget it [ Scribe Assist by Pierre-Antoine Champin ] ←
12:14:55 <pchampin> sandro: why not require a zero after the dot if you want a decimal?
Sandro Hawke: why not require a zero after the dot if you want a decimal? [ Scribe Assist by Pierre-Antoine Champin ] ←
12:15:03 <pchampin> steve: having SPARQL change that is not an issue
Steve Harris: having SPARQL change that is not an issue [ Scribe Assist by Pierre-Antoine Champin ] ←
12:15:30 <pchampin> david: it's a purely syntactical point that some people feel religious about
David Wood: it's a purely syntactical point that some people feel religious about [ Scribe Assist by Pierre-Antoine Champin ] ←
12:15:35 <pchampin> possibly for no good reason
Pierre-Antoine Champin: possibly for no good reason ←
12:16:00 <gavinc> Why the heck is 18. a decimal in the first place?
Gavin Carothers: Why the heck is 18. a decimal in the first place? ←
12:16:16 <mischat> because of the xml spec iirc gavinc
Mischa Tuffield: because of the xml spec iirc gavinc ←
12:16:28 <gavinc> xsd?
Gavin Carothers: xsd? ←
12:16:33 <ericP> i think there's a lot of precedent for that in existing programming langs
Scribe problem: the name 'ericP' does not match any of the 27 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Ivan Herman Mischa Tuffield Dan Brickley Christopher Matheus Peter Patel-Schneider Jan Wielemaker Jean-François Baget Nicholas Humfrey Yves Raimond Richard Cyganiak Pierre-Antoine Champin Fabien Gandon Steve Harris Matteo Brunati Sandro Hawke David Wood Guus Schreiber Antoine Zimmermann Gavin Carothers Thomas Steiner Zhe Wu Olivier Corby William Waites Paul Groth Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot
Scribe problem: the name 'ericP' does not match any of the 27 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Ivan Herman Mischa Tuffield Dan Brickley Christopher Matheus Peter Patel-Schneider Jan Wielemaker Jean-François Baget Nicholas Humfrey Yves Raimond Richard Cyganiak Pierre-Antoine Champin Fabien Gandon Steve Harris Matteo Brunati Sandro Hawke David Wood Guus Schreiber Antoine Zimmermann Gavin Carothers Thomas Steiner Zhe Wu Olivier Corby William Waites Paul Groth Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot
Unknown ericP: i think there's a lot of precedent for that in existing programming langs ←
12:16:48 <mischat> gavinc: http://www.w3.org/TR/xmlschema-2/#decimal
Gavin Carothers: http://www.w3.org/TR/xmlschema-2/#decimal [ Scribe Assist by Mischa Tuffield ] ←
12:16:51 <pchampin> jan: this is linked to another problem: local name ending with a dot
Jan Wielemaker: this is linked to another problem: local name ending with a dot [ Scribe Assist by Pierre-Antoine Champin ] ←
12:17:02 <pchampin> steve: this is in a further slide
Steve Harris: this is in a further slide [ Scribe Assist by Pierre-Antoine Champin ] ←
12:17:10 <sandro> cygri: Can't you tell from the grammar?
Richard Cyganiak: Can't you tell from the grammar? [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
12:17:26 <pchampin> steve: it makes the grammar more compocated to implement
Steve Harris: it makes the grammar more complicated to implement [ Scribe Assist by Pierre-Antoine Champin ] ←
12:17:31 <pchampin> s/compocated/complicated/
12:17:32 <sandro> SteveH: It's hard, it might be like lookahead 2 or something.
Steve Harris: It's hard, it might be like lookahead 2 or something. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
12:17:50 <sandro> +1 steve: require the zero, and the SPARQL folks to fix it, it was a bug.
Sandro Hawke: +1 steve: require the zero, and the SPARQL folks to fix it, it was a bug. ←
12:18:07 <gavinc> I don't think 18. is vaild in XQuery... if it is... I sure as heck never saw it
Gavin Carothers: I don't think 18. is vaild in XQuery... if it is... I sure as heck never saw it ←
12:18:21 <sandro> (and note that SPARQL folks can stull use the .0 )
Sandro Hawke: (and note that SPARQL folks can still use the .0 ) ←
12:18:32 <pchampin> s/stull/still/
12:18:46 <ericP> +1 to steve's "just fix it in turtle" proposal
Scribe problem: the name 'ericP' does not match any of the 27 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Ivan Herman Mischa Tuffield Dan Brickley Christopher Matheus Peter Patel-Schneider Jan Wielemaker Jean-François Baget Nicholas Humfrey Yves Raimond Richard Cyganiak Pierre-Antoine Champin Fabien Gandon Steve Harris Matteo Brunati Sandro Hawke David Wood Guus Schreiber Antoine Zimmermann Gavin Carothers Thomas Steiner Zhe Wu Olivier Corby William Waites Paul Groth Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot
Scribe problem: the name 'ericP' does not match any of the 27 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Ivan Herman Mischa Tuffield Dan Brickley Christopher Matheus Peter Patel-Schneider Jan Wielemaker Jean-François Baget Nicholas Humfrey Yves Raimond Richard Cyganiak Pierre-Antoine Champin Fabien Gandon Steve Harris Matteo Brunati Sandro Hawke David Wood Guus Schreiber Antoine Zimmermann Gavin Carothers Thomas Steiner Zhe Wu Olivier Corby William Waites Paul Groth Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot
Unknown ericP: +1 to steve's "just fix it in turtle" proposal ←
12:19:35 <gavinc> +1 to just fix it in turtle
Gavin Carothers: +1 to just fix it in turtle ←
12:19:41 <mischat> it is being proposed that removing the trailing "." at the end of turtle statements (via jaan) would be an easier fix
Mischa Tuffield: it is being proposed that removing the trailing "." at the end of turtle statements (via jan) would be an easier fix ←
12:20:10 <ivan> s/jaan/jan/
12:20:37 <sandro> PROPOSED: close ISSUE-18 by requiring digits after the decimal point, as in "18.0".
PROPOSED: close ISSUE-18 by requiring digits after the decimal point, as in "18.0". ←
12:20:38 <sandro> +1
Sandro Hawke: +1 ←
12:20:48 <mischat> +1
Mischa Tuffield: +1 ←
12:20:48 <sandro> steve: +1
Steve Harris: +1 [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
12:20:49 <ivan> +1
Ivan Herman: +1 ←
12:20:51 <gavinc> +1
Gavin Carothers: +1 ←
12:20:53 <mischat> +1 from steveH
Mischa Tuffield: +1 from steveH ←
12:20:57 <davidwood> +1
David Wood: +1 ←
12:20:57 <NickH> +1
Nicholas Humfrey: +1 ←
12:20:59 <zwu2> +1
12:21:02 <pchampin> pchampin: +1
Pierre-Antoine Champin: +1 [ Scribe Assist by Pierre-Antoine Champin ] ←
12:21:09 <FabGandon> +1
Fabien Gandon: +1 ←
12:21:12 <cygri> +1
Richard Cyganiak: +1 ←
12:21:28 <gavinc> YES
Gavin Carothers: YES ←
12:21:34 <gavinc> There is a whitespace in turtle issue ;)
Gavin Carothers: There is a whitespace in turtle issue ;) ←
12:21:44 <ericP> 。
Scribe problem: the name 'ericP' does not match any of the 27 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Ivan Herman Mischa Tuffield Dan Brickley Christopher Matheus Peter Patel-Schneider Jan Wielemaker Jean-François Baget Nicholas Humfrey Yves Raimond Richard Cyganiak Pierre-Antoine Champin Fabien Gandon Steve Harris Matteo Brunati Sandro Hawke David Wood Guus Schreiber Antoine Zimmermann Gavin Carothers Thomas Steiner Zhe Wu Olivier Corby William Waites Paul Groth Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot
Scribe problem: the name 'ericP' does not match any of the 27 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Ivan Herman Mischa Tuffield Dan Brickley Christopher Matheus Peter Patel-Schneider Jan Wielemaker Jean-François Baget Nicholas Humfrey Yves Raimond Richard Cyganiak Pierre-Antoine Champin Fabien Gandon Steve Harris Matteo Brunati Sandro Hawke David Wood Guus Schreiber Antoine Zimmermann Gavin Carothers Thomas Steiner Zhe Wu Olivier Corby William Waites Paul Groth Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot
Unknown ericP: 。 ←
12:21:51 <sandro> RESOLVED: close ISSUE-18 by requiring digits after the decimal point, as in "18.0"
RESOLVED: close ISSUE-18 by requiring digits after the decimal point, as in "18.0" ←
12:22:07 <LeeF> OK
Scribe problem: the name 'LeeF' does not match any of the 27 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Ivan Herman Mischa Tuffield Dan Brickley Christopher Matheus Peter Patel-Schneider Jan Wielemaker Jean-François Baget Nicholas Humfrey Yves Raimond Richard Cyganiak Pierre-Antoine Champin Fabien Gandon Steve Harris Matteo Brunati Sandro Hawke David Wood Guus Schreiber Antoine Zimmermann Gavin Carothers Thomas Steiner Zhe Wu Olivier Corby William Waites Paul Groth Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot
Scribe problem: the name 'LeeF' does not match any of the 27 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Ivan Herman Mischa Tuffield Dan Brickley Christopher Matheus Peter Patel-Schneider Jan Wielemaker Jean-François Baget Nicholas Humfrey Yves Raimond Richard Cyganiak Pierre-Antoine Champin Fabien Gandon Steve Harris Matteo Brunati Sandro Hawke David Wood Guus Schreiber Antoine Zimmermann Gavin Carothers Thomas Steiner Zhe Wu Olivier Corby William Waites Paul Groth Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot
Unknown LeeF: OK ←
12:22:08 <cmatheus> +1
Christopher Matheus: +1 ←
12:22:14 <danbri> (aside: I was just thinking: lifetime of average Turtle document is likely somewhat longer than lifetime of average SPARQL query)
Dan Brickley: (aside: I was just thinking: lifetime of average Turtle document is likely somewhat longer than lifetime of average SPARQL query) ←
12:22:24 <sandro> ACTION: Lee to convey our resoltuon on ISSUE-18 to SPARQL WG
ACTION: Lee to convey our resoltuon on ISSUE-18 to SPARQL WG ←
12:22:24 <trackbot> Created ACTION-29 - Convey our resoltuon on ISSUE-18 to SPARQL WG [on Lee Feigenbaum - due 2011-04-20].
Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-29 - Convey our resoltuon on ISSUE-18 to SPARQL WG [on Lee Feigenbaum - due 2011-04-20]. ←
12:22:48 <pchampin> steve: issue-1 qnames
Steve Harris: ISSUE-1 qnames [ Scribe Assist by Pierre-Antoine Champin ] ←
12:23:06 <pchampin> legal in SPARQL: ns:123 ns:1.2 ns:aaa.bbb
Pierre-Antoine Champin: legal in SPARQL: ns:123 ns:1.2 ns:aaa.bbb ←
12:23:11 <davidwood> Danbri: Perhaps not with SPARQL stored procedures.
Dan Brickley: Perhaps not with SPARQL stored procedures. [ Scribe Assist by David Wood ] ←
12:23:12 <pchampin> not legal: ns:aaa.
Pierre-Antoine Champin: not legal: ns:aaa. ←
12:23:40 <mischat> this was motivated due to dots in filenames
Mischa Tuffield: this was motivated due to dots in filenames ←
12:23:52 <pchampin> not sure about what turtle exactly saus
Pierre-Antoine Champin: not sure about what turtle exactly says ←
12:23:56 <pchampin> s/saus/says/
12:24:23 <ericP> http://www.w3.org/2010/01/Turtle/#prod-turtle2-PNAME_LN
Scribe problem: the name 'ericP' does not match any of the 27 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Ivan Herman Mischa Tuffield Dan Brickley Christopher Matheus Peter Patel-Schneider Jan Wielemaker Jean-François Baget Nicholas Humfrey Yves Raimond Richard Cyganiak Pierre-Antoine Champin Fabien Gandon Steve Harris Matteo Brunati Sandro Hawke David Wood Guus Schreiber Antoine Zimmermann Gavin Carothers Thomas Steiner Zhe Wu Olivier Corby William Waites Paul Groth Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot
Scribe problem: the name 'ericP' does not match any of the 27 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Ivan Herman Mischa Tuffield Dan Brickley Christopher Matheus Peter Patel-Schneider Jan Wielemaker Jean-François Baget Nicholas Humfrey Yves Raimond Richard Cyganiak Pierre-Antoine Champin Fabien Gandon Steve Harris Matteo Brunati Sandro Hawke David Wood Guus Schreiber Antoine Zimmermann Gavin Carothers Thomas Steiner Zhe Wu Olivier Corby William Waites Paul Groth Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot
Unknown ericP: http://www.w3.org/2010/01/Turtle/#prod-turtle2-PNAME_LN ←
12:24:40 <ericP> http://www.w3.org/2010/01/Turtle/#prod-turtle2-PN_LOCAL
Scribe problem: the name 'ericP' does not match any of the 27 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Ivan Herman Mischa Tuffield Dan Brickley Christopher Matheus Peter Patel-Schneider Jan Wielemaker Jean-François Baget Nicholas Humfrey Yves Raimond Richard Cyganiak Pierre-Antoine Champin Fabien Gandon Steve Harris Matteo Brunati Sandro Hawke David Wood Guus Schreiber Antoine Zimmermann Gavin Carothers Thomas Steiner Zhe Wu Olivier Corby William Waites Paul Groth Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot
Scribe problem: the name 'ericP' does not match any of the 27 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Ivan Herman Mischa Tuffield Dan Brickley Christopher Matheus Peter Patel-Schneider Jan Wielemaker Jean-François Baget Nicholas Humfrey Yves Raimond Richard Cyganiak Pierre-Antoine Champin Fabien Gandon Steve Harris Matteo Brunati Sandro Hawke David Wood Guus Schreiber Antoine Zimmermann Gavin Carothers Thomas Steiner Zhe Wu Olivier Corby William Waites Paul Groth Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot
Unknown ericP: http://www.w3.org/2010/01/Turtle/#prod-turtle2-PN_LOCAL ←
12:24:49 <ericP> ( PN_CHARS_U | [0-9] ) ( ( PN_CHARS | "." )* PN_CHARS )?
Scribe problem: the name 'ericP' does not match any of the 27 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Ivan Herman Mischa Tuffield Dan Brickley Christopher Matheus Peter Patel-Schneider Jan Wielemaker Jean-François Baget Nicholas Humfrey Yves Raimond Richard Cyganiak Pierre-Antoine Champin Fabien Gandon Steve Harris Matteo Brunati Sandro Hawke David Wood Guus Schreiber Antoine Zimmermann Gavin Carothers Thomas Steiner Zhe Wu Olivier Corby William Waites Paul Groth Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot
Scribe problem: the name 'ericP' does not match any of the 27 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Ivan Herman Mischa Tuffield Dan Brickley Christopher Matheus Peter Patel-Schneider Jan Wielemaker Jean-François Baget Nicholas Humfrey Yves Raimond Richard Cyganiak Pierre-Antoine Champin Fabien Gandon Steve Harris Matteo Brunati Sandro Hawke David Wood Guus Schreiber Antoine Zimmermann Gavin Carothers Thomas Steiner Zhe Wu Olivier Corby William Waites Paul Groth Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot
Unknown ericP: ( PN_CHARS_U | [0-9] ) ( ( PN_CHARS | "." )* PN_CHARS )? ←
12:25:29 <gavinc> doesn't sparql/turtle also allow digits where NCName doesn't?
Gavin Carothers: doesn't sparql/turtle also allow digits where NCName doesn't? ←
12:25:48 <pchampin> peter: [detailed account of the differences btw SPARQL and Turtle re qnames]
Peter Patel-Schneider: [detailed account of the differences btw SPARQL and Turtle re qnames] [ Scribe Assist by Pierre-Antoine Champin ] ←
12:26:19 <ericP> gavinc, yes it does. NCName prohibits leading digits in the localname
Scribe problem: the name 'ericP' does not match any of the 27 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Ivan Herman Mischa Tuffield Dan Brickley Christopher Matheus Peter Patel-Schneider Jan Wielemaker Jean-François Baget Nicholas Humfrey Yves Raimond Richard Cyganiak Pierre-Antoine Champin Fabien Gandon Steve Harris Matteo Brunati Sandro Hawke David Wood Guus Schreiber Antoine Zimmermann Gavin Carothers Thomas Steiner Zhe Wu Olivier Corby William Waites Paul Groth Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot
Scribe problem: the name 'ericP' does not match any of the 27 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Ivan Herman Mischa Tuffield Dan Brickley Christopher Matheus Peter Patel-Schneider Jan Wielemaker Jean-François Baget Nicholas Humfrey Yves Raimond Richard Cyganiak Pierre-Antoine Champin Fabien Gandon Steve Harris Matteo Brunati Sandro Hawke David Wood Guus Schreiber Antoine Zimmermann Gavin Carothers Thomas Steiner Zhe Wu Olivier Corby William Waites Paul Groth Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot
Unknown ericP: gavinc, yes it does. NCName prohibits leading digits in the localname ←
12:26:58 <pchampin> david: remark that neither SPARQL nor Turtle refere to the definition of QNames
David Wood: remark that neither SPARQL nor Turtle refere to the definition of QNames [ Scribe Assist by Pierre-Antoine Champin ] ←
12:27:12 <pchampin> which is restricted by the XML syntax
Pierre-Antoine Champin: which is restricted by the XML syntax ←
12:27:52 <pchampin> guus: who objects to copying the SPARQL definition into turtle?
Guus Schreiber: who objects to copying the SPARQL definition into turtle? [ Scribe Assist by Pierre-Antoine Champin ] ←
12:28:12 <pchampin> ivan: bringing them as close as possible is a good thing
Ivan Herman: bringing them as close as possible is a good thing [ Scribe Assist by Pierre-Antoine Champin ] ←
12:28:24 <zwu2> keep things consistent is good
Zhe Wu: keep things consistent is good ←
12:28:32 <LeeF> We got very strong comments from life sciences folks before we made this change in SPARQL 1.0
Scribe problem: the name 'LeeF' does not match any of the 27 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Ivan Herman Mischa Tuffield Dan Brickley Christopher Matheus Peter Patel-Schneider Jan Wielemaker Jean-François Baget Nicholas Humfrey Yves Raimond Richard Cyganiak Pierre-Antoine Champin Fabien Gandon Steve Harris Matteo Brunati Sandro Hawke David Wood Guus Schreiber Antoine Zimmermann Gavin Carothers Thomas Steiner Zhe Wu Olivier Corby William Waites Paul Groth Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot
Scribe problem: the name 'LeeF' does not match any of the 27 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Ivan Herman Mischa Tuffield Dan Brickley Christopher Matheus Peter Patel-Schneider Jan Wielemaker Jean-François Baget Nicholas Humfrey Yves Raimond Richard Cyganiak Pierre-Antoine Champin Fabien Gandon Steve Harris Matteo Brunati Sandro Hawke David Wood Guus Schreiber Antoine Zimmermann Gavin Carothers Thomas Steiner Zhe Wu Olivier Corby William Waites Paul Groth Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot
Unknown LeeF: We got very strong comments from life sciences folks before we made this change in SPARQL 1.0 ←
12:28:37 <pchampin> sandro: I'm not fond of SPARQL identifiers, which are too persmissive re programming language identifiers
Sandro Hawke: I'm not fond of SPARQL identifiers, which are too persmissive re programming language identifiers [ Scribe Assist by Pierre-Antoine Champin ] ←
12:28:39 <danbri> q+ to ask i18n/l18n concerns
Dan Brickley: q+ to ask i18n/l18n concerns ←
12:28:43 <LeeF> I can find those comments if that would be useful to anyone
Scribe problem: the name 'LeeF' does not match any of the 27 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Ivan Herman Mischa Tuffield Dan Brickley Christopher Matheus Peter Patel-Schneider Jan Wielemaker Jean-François Baget Nicholas Humfrey Yves Raimond Richard Cyganiak Pierre-Antoine Champin Fabien Gandon Steve Harris Matteo Brunati Sandro Hawke David Wood Guus Schreiber Antoine Zimmermann Gavin Carothers Thomas Steiner Zhe Wu Olivier Corby William Waites Paul Groth Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot
Scribe problem: the name 'LeeF' does not match any of the 27 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Ivan Herman Mischa Tuffield Dan Brickley Christopher Matheus Peter Patel-Schneider Jan Wielemaker Jean-François Baget Nicholas Humfrey Yves Raimond Richard Cyganiak Pierre-Antoine Champin Fabien Gandon Steve Harris Matteo Brunati Sandro Hawke David Wood Guus Schreiber Antoine Zimmermann Gavin Carothers Thomas Steiner Zhe Wu Olivier Corby William Waites Paul Groth Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot
Unknown LeeF: I can find those comments if that would be useful to anyone ←
12:28:51 <gavinc> so does RDF/XML
Gavin Carothers: so does RDF/XML ←
12:28:53 <pchampin> s/persimissive/permissive/
Pierre-Antoine Champin: s/persimissive/permissive/ (warning: replacement failed) ←
12:28:59 <gavinc> Javascript doesn't
Gavin Carothers: Javascript doesn't ←
12:29:21 <Guus> q?
Guus Schreiber: q? ←
12:29:27 <pchampin> peter: anyway, SPARQL and Turtle accept unicode characters, so most programming languages are waaay behind already
Peter Patel-Schneider: anyway, SPARQL and Turtle accept unicode characters, so most programming languages are waaay behind already [ Scribe Assist by Pierre-Antoine Champin ] ←
12:29:53 <pchampin> @prefix ☃: <http://crazy.snowmen.com/>
Pierre-Antoine Champin: @prefix ☃: <http://crazy.snowmen.com/> ←
12:29:56 <danbri> http://ko.wikipedia.org/wiki/%EC%95%94%EC%8A%A4%ED%85%8C%EB%A5%B4%EB%8B%B4
Dan Brickley: http://ko.wikipedia.org/wiki/%EC%95%94%EC%8A%A4%ED%85%8C%EB%A5%B4%EB%8B%B4 ←
12:29:57 <LeeF> ACTION-29: See http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2011AprJun/0044.html
Scribe problem: the name 'LeeF' does not match any of the 27 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Ivan Herman Mischa Tuffield Dan Brickley Christopher Matheus Peter Patel-Schneider Jan Wielemaker Jean-François Baget Nicholas Humfrey Yves Raimond Richard Cyganiak Pierre-Antoine Champin Fabien Gandon Steve Harris Matteo Brunati Sandro Hawke David Wood Guus Schreiber Antoine Zimmermann Gavin Carothers Thomas Steiner Zhe Wu Olivier Corby William Waites Paul Groth Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot
Scribe problem: the name 'ACTION-29' does not match any of the 27 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Ivan Herman Mischa Tuffield Dan Brickley Christopher Matheus Peter Patel-Schneider Jan Wielemaker Jean-François Baget Nicholas Humfrey Yves Raimond Richard Cyganiak Pierre-Antoine Champin Fabien Gandon Steve Harris Matteo Brunati Sandro Hawke David Wood Guus Schreiber Antoine Zimmermann Gavin Carothers Thomas Steiner Zhe Wu Olivier Corby William Waites Paul Groth Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot
Unknown ACTION-29: See http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2011AprJun/0044.html [ Scribe Assist by Unknown LeeF ] ←
12:29:58 <trackbot> ACTION-29 Convey our resoltuon on ISSUE-18 to SPARQL WG notes added
Trackbot IRC Bot: ACTION-29 Convey our resoltuon on ISSUE-18 to SPARQL WG notes added ←
12:30:14 <danbri> vs http://ko.wikipedia.org/wiki/암스테르담
Dan Brickley: vs http://ko.wikipedia.org/wiki/암스테르담 ←
12:30:26 <danbri> vs kowiki:암스테르담
Dan Brickley: vs kowiki:암스테르담 ←
12:30:33 <gavinc> heh, yeah, don't do that.
Gavin Carothers: heh, yeah, don't do that. ←
12:31:01 <pchampin> cygri: I would not be surprised that programming language have different restrictions, anyway
Richard Cyganiak: I would not be surprised that programming language have different restrictions, anyway [ Scribe Assist by Pierre-Antoine Champin ] ←
12:31:01 <gavinc> having just written a python library it ended badly. Way better off using object['blah'] notation for RDF
Gavin Carothers: having just written a python library it ended badly. Way better off using object['blah'] notation for RDF ←
12:31:38 <pchampin> danbri: aren't we hindering i18n here?
Dan Brickley: aren't we hindering i18n here? [ Scribe Assist by Pierre-Antoine Champin ] ←
12:31:39 <danbri> q-
Dan Brickley: q- ←
12:31:47 <pchampin> ivan: no, we are extending the space of legal things
Ivan Herman: no, we are extending the space of legal things [ Scribe Assist by Pierre-Antoine Champin ] ←
12:32:28 <davidwood> LeeF: right. Thanks.
Scribe problem: the name 'LeeF' does not match any of the 27 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Ivan Herman Mischa Tuffield Dan Brickley Christopher Matheus Peter Patel-Schneider Jan Wielemaker Jean-François Baget Nicholas Humfrey Yves Raimond Richard Cyganiak Pierre-Antoine Champin Fabien Gandon Steve Harris Matteo Brunati Sandro Hawke David Wood Guus Schreiber Antoine Zimmermann Gavin Carothers Thomas Steiner Zhe Wu Olivier Corby William Waites Paul Groth Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot
Unknown LeeF: right. Thanks. [ Scribe Assist by David Wood ] ←
12:32:31 <sandro> PROPOSED: Allow dots inside local part of qnames in Turtle, aligning with SPARQL syntax
PROPOSED: Allow dots inside local part of qnames in Turtle, aligning with SPARQL syntax ←
12:33:32 <davidwood> [99] PN_PREFIX ::= PN_CHARS_BASE ((PN_CHARS|'.')* PN_CHARS)?
David Wood: [99] PN_PREFIX ::= PN_CHARS_BASE ((PN_CHARS|'.')* PN_CHARS)? ←
12:33:49 <davidwood> (from SPARQL)
David Wood: (from SPARQL) ←
12:33:50 <sandro> +0 (I like having qnames line up with legal field names in programming languages)
Sandro Hawke: +0 (I like having qnames line up with legal field names in programming languages) ←
12:34:01 <LeeF> +1
Scribe problem: the name 'LeeF' does not match any of the 27 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Ivan Herman Mischa Tuffield Dan Brickley Christopher Matheus Peter Patel-Schneider Jan Wielemaker Jean-François Baget Nicholas Humfrey Yves Raimond Richard Cyganiak Pierre-Antoine Champin Fabien Gandon Steve Harris Matteo Brunati Sandro Hawke David Wood Guus Schreiber Antoine Zimmermann Gavin Carothers Thomas Steiner Zhe Wu Olivier Corby William Waites Paul Groth Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot
Scribe problem: the name 'LeeF' does not match any of the 27 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Ivan Herman Mischa Tuffield Dan Brickley Christopher Matheus Peter Patel-Schneider Jan Wielemaker Jean-François Baget Nicholas Humfrey Yves Raimond Richard Cyganiak Pierre-Antoine Champin Fabien Gandon Steve Harris Matteo Brunati Sandro Hawke David Wood Guus Schreiber Antoine Zimmermann Gavin Carothers Thomas Steiner Zhe Wu Olivier Corby William Waites Paul Groth Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot
Unknown LeeF: +1 ←
12:34:03 <cygri> +1 to do what sparql does
Richard Cyganiak: +1 to do what sparql does ←
12:34:04 <ericP> +1 (i've given up)
Scribe problem: the name 'ericP' does not match any of the 27 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Ivan Herman Mischa Tuffield Dan Brickley Christopher Matheus Peter Patel-Schneider Jan Wielemaker Jean-François Baget Nicholas Humfrey Yves Raimond Richard Cyganiak Pierre-Antoine Champin Fabien Gandon Steve Harris Matteo Brunati Sandro Hawke David Wood Guus Schreiber Antoine Zimmermann Gavin Carothers Thomas Steiner Zhe Wu Olivier Corby William Waites Paul Groth Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot
Scribe problem: the name 'ericP' does not match any of the 27 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Ivan Herman Mischa Tuffield Dan Brickley Christopher Matheus Peter Patel-Schneider Jan Wielemaker Jean-François Baget Nicholas Humfrey Yves Raimond Richard Cyganiak Pierre-Antoine Champin Fabien Gandon Steve Harris Matteo Brunati Sandro Hawke David Wood Guus Schreiber Antoine Zimmermann Gavin Carothers Thomas Steiner Zhe Wu Olivier Corby William Waites Paul Groth Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot
Unknown ericP: +1 (i've given up) ←
12:34:05 <cmatheus> +1
Christopher Matheus: +1 ←
12:34:07 <sandro> PROPOSED: Allow dots inside local part and namespace part of qnames in Turtle, aligning with SPARQL syntax
PROPOSED: Allow dots inside local part and namespace part of qnames in Turtle, aligning with SPARQL syntax ←
12:34:07 <zwu2> +1
12:34:08 <gavinc> +1
Gavin Carothers: +1 ←
12:34:16 <pfps> +1
+1 ←
12:34:18 <mbrunati> +1
Matteo Brunati: +1 ←
12:34:19 <ivan> +1
Ivan Herman: +1 ←
12:34:19 <pchampin> pchampin: +1
Pierre-Antoine Champin: +1 [ Scribe Assist by Pierre-Antoine Champin ] ←
12:34:20 <NickH> 0 (as a ruby user)
Nicholas Humfrey: 0 (as a ruby user) ←
12:34:24 <sandro> +0 (I like having qnames line up with legal field names in programming languages)
Sandro Hawke: +0 (I like having qnames line up with legal field names in programming languages) ←
12:34:29 <FabGandon> +1
Fabien Gandon: +1 ←
12:35:03 <davidwood> +1
David Wood: +1 ←
12:35:07 <yvesr> +1
Yves Raimond: +1 ←
12:35:16 <sandro> RESOLVED: Allow dots inside local part and namespace part of qnames in Turtle, aligning with SPARQL syntax
RESOLVED: Allow dots inside local part and namespace part of qnames in Turtle, aligning with SPARQL syntax ←
12:35:31 <danbri> (so kowiki:암스테르담 is ok?)
Dan Brickley: (so kowiki:암스테르담 is ok?) ←
12:35:41 <gavinc> Yes.
Gavin Carothers: Yes. ←
12:35:41 <ericP> ✔
Scribe problem: the name 'ericP' does not match any of the 27 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Ivan Herman Mischa Tuffield Dan Brickley Christopher Matheus Peter Patel-Schneider Jan Wielemaker Jean-François Baget Nicholas Humfrey Yves Raimond Richard Cyganiak Pierre-Antoine Champin Fabien Gandon Steve Harris Matteo Brunati Sandro Hawke David Wood Guus Schreiber Antoine Zimmermann Gavin Carothers Thomas Steiner Zhe Wu Olivier Corby William Waites Paul Groth Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot
Scribe problem: the name 'ericP' does not match any of the 27 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Ivan Herman Mischa Tuffield Dan Brickley Christopher Matheus Peter Patel-Schneider Jan Wielemaker Jean-François Baget Nicholas Humfrey Yves Raimond Richard Cyganiak Pierre-Antoine Champin Fabien Gandon Steve Harris Matteo Brunati Sandro Hawke David Wood Guus Schreiber Antoine Zimmermann Gavin Carothers Thomas Steiner Zhe Wu Olivier Corby William Waites Paul Groth Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot
Unknown ericP: ✔ ←
12:36:15 <pchampin> steve: continuing on issue-1: features
Steve Harris: continuing on ISSUE-1: features [ Scribe Assist by Pierre-Antoine Champin ] ←
12:36:19 <ww> +0.5 belatedly
William Waites: +0.5 belatedly ←
12:36:21 <mischat> who wants to add more features to turtle ?
Mischa Tuffield: who wants to add more features to turtle ? ←
12:36:32 <pchampin> stick to the feature-set in submission?
Pierre-Antoine Champin: stick to the feature-set in submission? ←
12:36:47 <LeeF> I think these ought to be different discussions.
Scribe problem: the name 'LeeF' does not match any of the 27 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Ivan Herman Mischa Tuffield Dan Brickley Christopher Matheus Peter Patel-Schneider Jan Wielemaker Jean-François Baget Nicholas Humfrey Yves Raimond Richard Cyganiak Pierre-Antoine Champin Fabien Gandon Steve Harris Matteo Brunati Sandro Hawke David Wood Guus Schreiber Antoine Zimmermann Gavin Carothers Thomas Steiner Zhe Wu Olivier Corby William Waites Paul Groth Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot
Scribe problem: the name 'LeeF' does not match any of the 27 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Ivan Herman Mischa Tuffield Dan Brickley Christopher Matheus Peter Patel-Schneider Jan Wielemaker Jean-François Baget Nicholas Humfrey Yves Raimond Richard Cyganiak Pierre-Antoine Champin Fabien Gandon Steve Harris Matteo Brunati Sandro Hawke David Wood Guus Schreiber Antoine Zimmermann Gavin Carothers Thomas Steiner Zhe Wu Olivier Corby William Waites Paul Groth Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot
Unknown LeeF: I think these ought to be different discussions. ←
12:36:50 <gavinc> -1 to adding features +0 to TriG as part of Turtle
Gavin Carothers: -1 to adding features +0 to TriG as part of Turtle ←
12:36:54 <pchampin> or add more: quads? inverse paths? equals? more sugar?
Pierre-Antoine Champin: or add more: quads? inverse paths? equals? more sugar? ←
12:37:03 <LeeF> Discussion #1: Is Turtle extended to handle named graphs?
Scribe problem: the name 'LeeF' does not match any of the 27 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Ivan Herman Mischa Tuffield Dan Brickley Christopher Matheus Peter Patel-Schneider Jan Wielemaker Jean-François Baget Nicholas Humfrey Yves Raimond Richard Cyganiak Pierre-Antoine Champin Fabien Gandon Steve Harris Matteo Brunati Sandro Hawke David Wood Guus Schreiber Antoine Zimmermann Gavin Carothers Thomas Steiner Zhe Wu Olivier Corby William Waites Paul Groth Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot
Scribe problem: the name 'LeeF' does not match any of the 27 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Ivan Herman Mischa Tuffield Dan Brickley Christopher Matheus Peter Patel-Schneider Jan Wielemaker Jean-François Baget Nicholas Humfrey Yves Raimond Richard Cyganiak Pierre-Antoine Champin Fabien Gandon Steve Harris Matteo Brunati Sandro Hawke David Wood Guus Schreiber Antoine Zimmermann Gavin Carothers Thomas Steiner Zhe Wu Olivier Corby William Waites Paul Groth Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot
Unknown LeeF: Discussion #1: Is Turtle extended to handle named graphs? ←
12:37:07 <mischat> http://www.w3.org/DesignIssues/diagrams/n3/venn for visual purposes
Mischa Tuffield: http://www.w3.org/DesignIssues/diagrams/n3/venn for visual purposes ←
12:37:15 <LeeF> Discussion #2: Does Turtle have other features from N3, elsewhere?
Scribe problem: the name 'LeeF' does not match any of the 27 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Ivan Herman Mischa Tuffield Dan Brickley Christopher Matheus Peter Patel-Schneider Jan Wielemaker Jean-François Baget Nicholas Humfrey Yves Raimond Richard Cyganiak Pierre-Antoine Champin Fabien Gandon Steve Harris Matteo Brunati Sandro Hawke David Wood Guus Schreiber Antoine Zimmermann Gavin Carothers Thomas Steiner Zhe Wu Olivier Corby William Waites Paul Groth Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot
Scribe problem: the name 'LeeF' does not match any of the 27 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Ivan Herman Mischa Tuffield Dan Brickley Christopher Matheus Peter Patel-Schneider Jan Wielemaker Jean-François Baget Nicholas Humfrey Yves Raimond Richard Cyganiak Pierre-Antoine Champin Fabien Gandon Steve Harris Matteo Brunati Sandro Hawke David Wood Guus Schreiber Antoine Zimmermann Gavin Carothers Thomas Steiner Zhe Wu Olivier Corby William Waites Paul Groth Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot
Unknown LeeF: Discussion #2: Does Turtle have other features from N3, elsewhere? ←
12:37:47 <pchampin> yves: does this have implications like property paths?
Yves Raimond: does this have implications like property paths? [ Scribe Assist by Pierre-Antoine Champin ] ←
12:37:53 <davidwood> gavinc: "-1" is a formal objection. Is that your intent?
Gavin Carothers: "-1" is a formal objection. Is that your intent? [ Scribe Assist by David Wood ] ←
12:37:57 <LeeF> mischat, that diagram is great, thanks.
Scribe problem: the name 'LeeF' does not match any of the 27 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Ivan Herman Mischa Tuffield Dan Brickley Christopher Matheus Peter Patel-Schneider Jan Wielemaker Jean-François Baget Nicholas Humfrey Yves Raimond Richard Cyganiak Pierre-Antoine Champin Fabien Gandon Steve Harris Matteo Brunati Sandro Hawke David Wood Guus Schreiber Antoine Zimmermann Gavin Carothers Thomas Steiner Zhe Wu Olivier Corby William Waites Paul Groth Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot
Scribe problem: the name 'LeeF' does not match any of the 27 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Ivan Herman Mischa Tuffield Dan Brickley Christopher Matheus Peter Patel-Schneider Jan Wielemaker Jean-François Baget Nicholas Humfrey Yves Raimond Richard Cyganiak Pierre-Antoine Champin Fabien Gandon Steve Harris Matteo Brunati Sandro Hawke David Wood Guus Schreiber Antoine Zimmermann Gavin Carothers Thomas Steiner Zhe Wu Olivier Corby William Waites Paul Groth Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot
Unknown LeeF: mischat, that diagram is great, thanks. ←
12:37:58 <gavinc> mmm
Gavin Carothers: mmm ←
12:38:08 <gavinc> No.
Gavin Carothers: No. ←
12:38:09 <pchampin> ivan: I'm scared by these questions
Ivan Herman: I'm scared by these questions [ Scribe Assist by Pierre-Antoine Champin ] ←
12:38:11 <LeeF> mischat, It's missing "is ... of ... ", right?
Scribe problem: the name 'LeeF' does not match any of the 27 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Ivan Herman Mischa Tuffield Dan Brickley Christopher Matheus Peter Patel-Schneider Jan Wielemaker Jean-François Baget Nicholas Humfrey Yves Raimond Richard Cyganiak Pierre-Antoine Champin Fabien Gandon Steve Harris Matteo Brunati Sandro Hawke David Wood Guus Schreiber Antoine Zimmermann Gavin Carothers Thomas Steiner Zhe Wu Olivier Corby William Waites Paul Groth Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot
Scribe problem: the name 'LeeF' does not match any of the 27 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Ivan Herman Mischa Tuffield Dan Brickley Christopher Matheus Peter Patel-Schneider Jan Wielemaker Jean-François Baget Nicholas Humfrey Yves Raimond Richard Cyganiak Pierre-Antoine Champin Fabien Gandon Steve Harris Matteo Brunati Sandro Hawke David Wood Guus Schreiber Antoine Zimmermann Gavin Carothers Thomas Steiner Zhe Wu Olivier Corby William Waites Paul Groth Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot
Unknown LeeF: mischat, It's missing "is ... of ... ", right? ←
12:38:11 <gavinc> -0?
Gavin Carothers: -0? ←
12:38:25 <Guus> q+
Guus Schreiber: q+ ←
12:38:26 <sandro> yeah, gavinc
Sandro Hawke: yeah, gavinc ←
12:38:27 <pchampin> would require a lot of rewriting in deployed parsers
Pierre-Antoine Champin: would require a lot of rewriting in deployed parsers ←
12:38:27 <NickH> has anyone implemented any extra features in their turtle parser?
Nicholas Humfrey: has anyone implemented any extra features in their turtle parser? ←
12:38:38 <yvesr> i was thinking of :a foaf:knows/foaf:lnows :b <=> :a foaf:knows _:c . _:c foaf:knows :b
Yves Raimond: i was thinking of :a foaf:knows/foaf:lnows :b <=> :a foaf:knows _:c . _:c foaf:knows :b ←
12:38:38 <ww> i would like to see in turtle, = shorthand for owl:sameAs and trig means <graph> = { ... } where the = can be omitted for brevity
William Waites: i would like to see in turtle, = shorthand for owl:sameAs and trig means <graph> = { ... } where the = can be omitted for brevity ←
12:39:04 <ww> this preserves compatibility with trig and gives a path towards n3
William Waites: this preserves compatibility with trig and gives a path towards n3 ←
12:39:06 <sandro> zakim, who is on the call?
Sandro Hawke: zakim, who is on the call? ←
12:39:06 <Zakim> On the phone I see OlivierCorby, OlivierCorby.a, OlivierCorby.aa, OlivierCorby.aaa, gavinc, OlivierCorby.aaaa, Meeting_Room, zwu2, LeeF, EricP
Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see OlivierCorby, OlivierCorby.a, OlivierCorby.aa, OlivierCorby.aaa, gavinc, OlivierCorby.aaaa, Meeting_Room, zwu2, LeeF, EricP ←
12:39:14 <mischat> q?
Mischa Tuffield: q? ←
12:39:32 <pchampin> guus: we are likely to include a separate media type that extend turtle with named graphs
Guus Schreiber: we are likely to include a separate media type that extend turtle with named graphs [ Scribe Assist by Pierre-Antoine Champin ] ←
12:39:41 <davidwood> ack Guus
David Wood: ack Guus ←
12:39:46 <pchampin> what if we include any new feature in this new media type?
Pierre-Antoine Champin: what if we include any new feature in this new media type? ←
12:39:53 <danbri> q+ to suggest we structure the HTML of the document to encourage re-use of productions from the turtle grammar
Dan Brickley: q+ to suggest we structure the HTML of the document to encourage re-use of productions from the turtle grammar ←
12:40:16 <pchampin> cygri: if we do that, this will drive most people to the multi-graph format just for the benefit of the other features
Richard Cyganiak: if we do that, this will drive most people to the multi-graph format just for the benefit of the other features [ Scribe Assist by Pierre-Antoine Champin ] ←
12:40:24 <pchampin> pchampin: +1 cygri
Pierre-Antoine Champin: +1 cygri [ Scribe Assist by Pierre-Antoine Champin ] ←
12:41:00 <sandro> steve: no requests for this stuff from 4store users
Steve Harris: no requests for this stuff from 4store users [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
12:42:05 <pchampin> mischa: people will have to rewrite turtle parsers anyway, re changes in prefix
Mischa Tuffield: people will have to rewrite turtle parsers anyway, re changes in prefix [ Scribe Assist by Pierre-Antoine Champin ] ←
12:42:22 <pchampin> ivan: but inverse paths are a much deeper change in the parser
Ivan Herman: but inverse paths are a much deeper change in the parser [ Scribe Assist by Pierre-Antoine Champin ] ←
12:43:32 <pchampin> danbri: sugar for inverse path is also in RDFa
Dan Brickley: sugar for inverse path is also in RDFa [ Scribe Assist by Pierre-Antoine Champin ] ←
12:43:35 <davidwood> q?
David Wood: q? ←
12:43:43 <danbri> ack q?
Dan Brickley: ack q? ←
12:43:50 <danbri> ack danbri
Dan Brickley: ack danbri ←
12:43:50 <Zakim> danbri, you wanted to suggest we structure the HTML of the document to encourage re-use of productions from the turtle grammar
Zakim IRC Bot: danbri, you wanted to suggest we structure the HTML of the document to encourage re-use of productions from the turtle grammar ←
12:43:53 <davidwood> ack danbri
David Wood: ack danbri ←
12:44:37 <pchampin> danbri: basically SPARQL and Turtle are the same
Dan Brickley: basically SPARQL and Turtle are the same [ Scribe Assist by Pierre-Antoine Champin ] ←
12:44:50 <sandro> danbri: I'd like to see these features, but I don't think they need to be this Turtle spec.
Dan Brickley: I'd like to see these features, but I don't think they need to be this Turtle spec. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
12:45:59 <pchampin> guus: points out that the quad extension is a separate issue
Guus Schreiber: points out that the quad extension is a separate issue [ Scribe Assist by Pierre-Antoine Champin ] ←
12:46:36 <pchampin> it is a shame Nathan is not here to discuss the matter
Pierre-Antoine Champin: it is a shame Nathan is not here to discuss the matter ←
12:46:48 <pchampin> we can phrase a resolution and put it on the agenda of the next telecon
Pierre-Antoine Champin: we can phrase a resolution and put it on the agenda of the next telecon ←
12:47:28 <mischat> FabGandon: sorry, i don't know why that got in the diagram, and I don't really parse the "x!y^z paths", and i don't know much about n3 either
Fabien Gandon: sorry, i don't know why that got in the diagram, and I don't really parse the "x!y^z paths", and i don't know much about n3 either [ Scribe Assist by Mischa Tuffield ] ←
12:47:33 <sandro> PROPOSED: Our turtle will have the same feature-set as the submission (leaving out inverse paths, leaving out "=", and other N3 things)
PROPOSED: Our turtle will have the same feature-set as the submission (leaving out inverse paths, leaving out "=", and other N3 things) ←
12:48:59 <sandro> ISSUE: Do we need to add features to turtle, beyond what's in the Submission (such as inverse paths and =)?
ISSUE: Do we need to add features to turtle, beyond what's in the Submission (such as inverse paths and =)? ←
12:49:06 <trackbot> Created ISSUE-34 - Do we need to add features to turtle, beyond what's in the Submission (such as inverse paths and =)? ; please complete additional details at http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/issues/34/edit .
Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ISSUE-34 - Do we need to add features to turtle, beyond what's in the Submission (such as inverse paths and =)? ; please complete additional details at http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/issues/34/edit . ←
12:49:33 <sandro> Guus: This is NOT pre-judge solution to GRAPHs.
Guus Schreiber: This is NOT pre-judge solution to GRAPHs. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
12:49:52 <cygri> LeeF, I count 11 macs and 6 others in the room. scary!
Richard Cyganiak: LeeF, I count 11 macs and 6 others in the room. scary! ←
12:51:04 <sandro> action: guus put issue-34 on agenda for next time, proposed resolution "No"
ACTION: guus put ISSUE-34 on agenda for next time, proposed resolution "No" ←
12:51:04 <trackbot> Created ACTION-30 - Put issue-34 on agenda for next time, proposed resolution "No" [on Guus Schreiber - due 2011-04-20].
Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-30 - Put ISSUE-34 on agenda for next time, proposed resolution "No" [on Guus Schreiber - due 2011-04-20]. ←
12:51:37 <pchampin> steve: syntaxes (issue4, 31etc)
Steve Harris: syntaxes (ISSUE-4, 31etc) [ Scribe Assist by Pierre-Antoine Champin ] ←
12:51:54 <mischat> sandro: perhaps moving the webcam to face the screen
Sandro Hawke: perhaps moving the webcam to face the screen [ Scribe Assist by Mischa Tuffield ] ←
12:52:08 <pchampin> triples+terse = turtle
Pierre-Antoine Champin: triples+terse = turtle ←
12:52:19 <pchampin> triples+verbose = NTriples
Pierre-Antoine Champin: triples+verbose = NTriples ←
12:52:34 <pchampin> quads+terse = trig,n3,sparql update,qurtle
Pierre-Antoine Champin: quads+terse = trig,n3,sparql update,qurtle ←
12:52:36 <LeeF> triples+verbose = vertle, naturally
Scribe problem: the name 'LeeF' does not match any of the 27 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Ivan Herman Mischa Tuffield Dan Brickley Christopher Matheus Peter Patel-Schneider Jan Wielemaker Jean-François Baget Nicholas Humfrey Yves Raimond Richard Cyganiak Pierre-Antoine Champin Fabien Gandon Steve Harris Matteo Brunati Sandro Hawke David Wood Guus Schreiber Antoine Zimmermann Gavin Carothers Thomas Steiner Zhe Wu Olivier Corby William Waites Paul Groth Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot
Scribe problem: the name 'LeeF' does not match any of the 27 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Ivan Herman Mischa Tuffield Dan Brickley Christopher Matheus Peter Patel-Schneider Jan Wielemaker Jean-François Baget Nicholas Humfrey Yves Raimond Richard Cyganiak Pierre-Antoine Champin Fabien Gandon Steve Harris Matteo Brunati Sandro Hawke David Wood Guus Schreiber Antoine Zimmermann Gavin Carothers Thomas Steiner Zhe Wu Olivier Corby William Waites Paul Groth Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot
Unknown LeeF: triples+verbose = vertle, naturally ←
12:52:42 <pchampin> quad+verbose: NQuads
Pierre-Antoine Champin: quad+verbose: NQuads ←
12:53:52 <pchampin> ivan: there is a non-trivial difference btw turtle and ntriples: the latter only accept ascii
Ivan Herman: there is a non-trivial difference btw turtle and ntriples: the latter only accept ascii [ Scribe Assist by Pierre-Antoine Champin ] ←
12:54:00 <danbri> grep '^quad' /usr/share/dict/words >>> http://pastebin.com/0Cas69pf
Dan Brickley: grep '^quad' /usr/share/dict/words >>> http://pastebin.com/0Cas69pf ←
12:54:41 <pchampin> guus: should we put in our spec what are the restrictions on NTriples
Guus Schreiber: should we put in our spec what are the restrictions on NTriples [ Scribe Assist by Pierre-Antoine Champin ] ←
12:54:48 <pchampin> as a section in the Turtle document
Pierre-Antoine Champin: as a section in the Turtle document ←
12:55:08 <pchampin> steve: with a more rational media type than text/plain
Steve Harris: with a more rational media type than text/plain [ Scribe Assist by Pierre-Antoine Champin ] ←
12:55:46 <pchampin> cygri: I would argue to have a separate document, as they describe rather different formats
Richard Cyganiak: I would argue to have a separate document, as they describe rather different formats [ Scribe Assist by Pierre-Antoine Champin ] ←
12:55:46 <mischat> q+ about bnode serialisation and ordering of documents
Mischa Tuffield: q+ about bnode serialisation and ordering of documents ←
12:55:53 <pchampin> peter: I would argue against that
Peter Patel-Schneider: I would argue against that [ Scribe Assist by Pierre-Antoine Champin ] ←
12:56:13 <mischat> q+
Mischa Tuffield: q+ ←
12:56:47 <pchampin> we would have too many documents
Pierre-Antoine Champin: we would have too many documents ←
12:57:01 <pchampin> cygri: with RDFa and JSON, we will have multiple documents anyway
Richard Cyganiak: with RDFa and JSON, we will have multiple documents anyway [ Scribe Assist by Pierre-Antoine Champin ] ←
12:57:17 <pchampin> ivan: what problem are we trying to solve here?
Ivan Herman: what problem are we trying to solve here? [ Scribe Assist by Pierre-Antoine Champin ] ←
12:57:37 <pchampin> ntriples has been around for some time? in a W3C recommendation?
Pierre-Antoine Champin: ntriples has been around for some time? in a W3C recommendation? ←
12:57:43 <pchampin> what do we need to fix?
Pierre-Antoine Champin: what do we need to fix? ←
12:58:02 <sandro> cygri: if I google for N-Triples, I end up in the wrong place.
Richard Cyganiak: if I google for N-Triples, I end up in the wrong place. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
12:58:15 <danbri> http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/RDFCore/ntriples/ is 1st hit, and it says 'PLEASE NOTE: This document has been superceded by the RDF Test Cases Working Draft. See N-Triples for more information.'
Dan Brickley: http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/RDFCore/ntriples/ is 1st hit, and it says 'PLEASE NOTE: This document has been superceded by the RDF Test Cases Working Draft. See N-Triples for more information.' ←
12:58:50 <zwu2> http://www.w3.org/TR/rdf-testcases/#ntriples
Zhe Wu: http://www.w3.org/TR/rdf-testcases/#ntriples ←
12:59:13 <pchampin> guus: for the purpose of editing the recommendation, it makes more sense to have ntriples as an appendix of turtle
Guus Schreiber: for the purpose of editing the recommendation, it makes more sense to have ntriples as an appendix of turtle [ Scribe Assist by Pierre-Antoine Champin ] ←
12:59:34 <pchampin> we can also have an ntriple primer pointing to that appendix
Pierre-Antoine Champin: we can also have an ntriple primer pointing to that appendix ←
12:59:55 <pchampin> ivan: from what Richard said, this is just an editorial issue, so postpone
Ivan Herman: from what Richard said, this is just an editorial issue, so postpone [ Scribe Assist by Pierre-Antoine Champin ] ←
13:00:31 <pchampin> danbri: who greps ntriple on a daily basis
Dan Brickley: who greps ntriple on a daily basis [ Scribe Assist by Pierre-Antoine Champin ] ←
13:00:40 <pchampin> quite a few hands raise
Pierre-Antoine Champin: quite a few hands raise ←
13:01:12 <pchampin> steve; and gets bitten by the fact that it is suppose to be ascii, and is often utf8 in practice
Pierre-Antoine Champin: steve; and gets bitten by the fact that it is suppose to be ascii, and is often utf8 in practice ←
13:02:02 <danbri> aside re naming -- I've googled all the words that begin ^quad; nothing great. Trying with ^trip -> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triplex is interesting (lots of meanings but none clash)
Dan Brickley: aside re naming -- I've googled all the words that begin ^quad; nothing great. Trying with ^trip -> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triplex is interesting (lots of meanings but none clash) ←
13:03:34 <ericP> +1 to deprecating ntriples
Scribe problem: the name 'ericP' does not match any of the 27 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Ivan Herman Mischa Tuffield Dan Brickley Christopher Matheus Peter Patel-Schneider Jan Wielemaker Jean-François Baget Nicholas Humfrey Yves Raimond Richard Cyganiak Pierre-Antoine Champin Fabien Gandon Steve Harris Matteo Brunati Sandro Hawke David Wood Guus Schreiber Antoine Zimmermann Gavin Carothers Thomas Steiner Zhe Wu Olivier Corby William Waites Paul Groth Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot
Scribe problem: the name 'ericP' does not match any of the 27 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Ivan Herman Mischa Tuffield Dan Brickley Christopher Matheus Peter Patel-Schneider Jan Wielemaker Jean-François Baget Nicholas Humfrey Yves Raimond Richard Cyganiak Pierre-Antoine Champin Fabien Gandon Steve Harris Matteo Brunati Sandro Hawke David Wood Guus Schreiber Antoine Zimmermann Gavin Carothers Thomas Steiner Zhe Wu Olivier Corby William Waites Paul Groth Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot
Unknown ericP: +1 to deprecating ntriples ←
13:03:57 <pchampin> paul: if we redefine ntriples as a subset of turtle, don't all those issues disappear?
Paul Groth: if we redefine ntriples as a subset of turtle, don't all those issues disappear? [ Scribe Assist by Pierre-Antoine Champin ] ←
13:04:39 <davidwood> ack mischat
David Wood: ack mischat ←
13:04:41 <pchampin> steve: yes, mostly
Steve Harris: yes, mostly [ Scribe Assist by Pierre-Antoine Champin ] ←
13:04:42 <mischat> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/N-Triples-Format
Mischa Tuffield: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/N-Triples-Format ←
13:04:47 <mischat> cygri: ^^ ?
Richard Cyganiak: ^^ ? [ Scribe Assist by Mischa Tuffield ] ←
13:04:52 <cygri> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/N-Triples-Format
Richard Cyganiak: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/N-Triples-Format ←
13:04:59 <cygri> oh thanks mischat
Richard Cyganiak: oh thanks mischat ←
13:05:02 <zwu2> -1 to changes to ntriples
Zhe Wu: -1 to changes to ntriples ←
13:05:16 <cygri> zwu2: including not defining a media type for it?
Zhe Wu: including not defining a media type for it? [ Scribe Assist by Richard Cyganiak ] ←
13:05:30 <zwu2> q+
13:06:09 <pchampin> zwu2: we will officially object any change to ntriples
Zhe Wu: we will officially object any change to ntriples [ Scribe Assist by Pierre-Antoine Champin ] ←
13:06:18 <danbri> maybe the issue here is 'change'
Dan Brickley: maybe the issue here is 'change' ←
13:06:41 <pchampin> david: are you parsing ntriples in ascii? are you sure?
David Wood: are you parsing ntriples in ascii? are you sure? [ Scribe Assist by Pierre-Antoine Champin ] ←
13:07:16 <mischat> on the wiki page above ^^
Mischa Tuffield: on the wiki page above ^^ ←
13:07:28 <zwu2> ack zwu2
13:07:33 <pchampin> danbri thinks ntriples-is-ntriples; whatever this group does is ... the next thing
Pierre-Antoine Champin: danbri thinks ntriples-is-ntriples; whatever this group does is ... the next thing ←
13:07:37 <davidwood> zwu2 confirmed that they would formally object to a change in ntriples
David Wood: zwu2 confirmed that they would formally object to a change in ntriples ←
13:07:39 <ivan> q?
Ivan Herman: q? ←
13:07:41 <zwu2> q-
13:07:43 <sandro> maybe leave N-Triples alone and define "Line-Mode Turtle" as the relevant Turtle subset?
Sandro Hawke: maybe leave N-Triples alone and define "Line-Mode Turtle" as the relevant Turtle subset? ←
13:08:01 <davidwood> Guus would prefer not to do that...
David Wood: Guus would prefer not to do that... ←
13:08:09 <pchampin> steve: about the second line (quads + terse/verbose)
Steve Harris: about the second line (quads + terse/verbose) [ Scribe Assist by Pierre-Antoine Champin ] ←
13:08:24 <gavinc> n-quads too!
Gavin Carothers: n-quads too! ←
13:08:37 <pchampin> there are a lot of turtle-like languages for quads
Pierre-Antoine Champin: there are a lot of turtle-like languages for quads ←
13:09:01 <pchampin> ivan: sparql update?
Ivan Herman: sparql update? [ Scribe Assist by Pierre-Antoine Champin ] ←
13:09:26 <pchampin> steve: yes, sparql update allows you to express graphs that ends up being stored, so it is a serialization syntax of its own
Steve Harris: yes, sparql update allows you to express graphs that ends up being stored, so it is a serialization syntax of its own [ Scribe Assist by Pierre-Antoine Champin ] ←
13:10:44 <Zakim> +??P26
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P26 ←
13:10:45 <pchampin> guus: iirc, richard argued agains having qurtle and turtle defined in the same document
Guus Schreiber: iirc, richard argued agains having qurtle and turtle defined in the same document [ Scribe Assist by Pierre-Antoine Champin ] ←
13:11:32 <pchampin> cygri: as discussed this morning, if turtle is extended with quads, this will have major impact on implementation
Richard Cyganiak: as discussed this morning, if turtle is extended with quads, this will have major impact on implementation [ Scribe Assist by Pierre-Antoine Champin ] ←
13:11:49 <pchampin> so qurtle (or anything) needs a separate media type and a separate document
Pierre-Antoine Champin: so qurtle (or anything) needs a separate media type and a separate document ←
13:11:52 <LeeF> +1 to keeping graph serialization separate from turtle
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Unknown LeeF: +1 to keeping graph serialization separate from turtle ←
13:13:01 <pchampin> peter: I would prefer people consuming turtle to be ready to consume quads, though I don't expect agreement on that
Peter Patel-Schneider: I would prefer people consuming turtle to be ready to consume quads, though I don't expect agreement on that [ Scribe Assist by Pierre-Antoine Champin ] ←
13:13:10 <davidwood> q?
David Wood: q? ←
13:14:09 <pchampin> paul: we are moving from a specification with triples to a specification with quads
Paul Groth: we are moving from a specification with triples to a specification with quads [ Scribe Assist by Pierre-Antoine Champin ] ←
13:14:22 <gavinc> -1 to a turtle media type document containing more then one graph +0 to the ONLY difference being the media type
Gavin Carothers: -1 to a turtle media type document containing more then one graph +0 to the ONLY difference being the media type ←
13:14:26 <pchampin> so why not including quads in next-turtle
Pierre-Antoine Champin: so why not including quads in next-turtle ←
13:15:35 <gavinc> Not very worried about HTTP GET, a bit more worried about HTTP POST/PUT
Gavin Carothers: Not very worried about HTTP GET, a bit more worried about HTTP POST/PUT ←
13:16:30 <pchampin> steve: what if you crawl untrusted documents, and they contain named graphs?
Steve Harris: what if you crawl untrusted documents, and they contain named graphs? [ Scribe Assist by Pierre-Antoine Champin ] ←
13:17:03 <pchampin> naming the graph with a URI that you care about
Pierre-Antoine Champin: naming the graph with a URI that you care about ←
13:17:53 <pchampin> danbri: I can answer from an experience
Dan Brickley: I can answer from an experience [ Scribe Assist by Pierre-Antoine Champin ] ←
13:18:09 <pchampin> I took some examples about provenance
Pierre-Antoine Champin: I took some examples about provenance ←
13:18:26 <pchampin> converted it to quads
Pierre-Antoine Champin: converted it to quads ←
13:18:28 <gavinc> http://www.w3.org/TR/sparql11-http-rdf-update/#graph-management if the representation contains more then one graph, exactly what to do with these updates becomes very strange.
Gavin Carothers: http://www.w3.org/TR/sparql11-http-rdf-update/#graph-management if the representation contains more then one graph, exactly what to do with these updates becomes very strange. ←
13:19:33 <webr3> if you put quads or ng's on the web for follow your nose, then I need a 5-tuple store (then if you put that online, will need 6-tuples, etc)
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Unknown webr3: if you put quads or ng's on the web for follow your nose, then I need a 5-tuple store (then if you put that online, will need 6-tuples, etc) ←
13:19:43 <pchampin> then was quite confused about the way to consume them,
Pierre-Antoine Champin: then was quite confused about the way to consume them, ←
13:20:18 <mischat> <snap> gavinc
Mischa Tuffield: <snap> nathan ←
13:20:22 <danbri> I made some tests with rdfa+@graph, see http://svn.foaf-project.org/foaftown/2010/prov/surf3.html http://svn.foaf-project.org/foaftown/2010/prov/ ... it's pretty confusing to get a sane processing model
Dan Brickley: I made some tests with rdfa+@graph, see http://svn.foaf-project.org/foaftown/2010/prov/surf3.html http://svn.foaf-project.org/foaftown/2010/prov/ ... it's pretty confusing to get a sane processing model ←
13:20:26 <mischat> s/gavinc/nathan/
13:20:27 <pchampin> as if the blog says 'this comes from the NYT', I don't want to credit the NYT with it
Pierre-Antoine Champin: as if the blog says 'this comes from the NYT', I don't want to credit the NYT with it ←
13:20:27 <mischat> sorry
Mischa Tuffield: sorry ←
13:20:36 <danbri> ( parser output http://svn.foaf-project.org/foaftown/2010/prov/_output.txt )
Dan Brickley: ( parser output http://svn.foaf-project.org/foaftown/2010/prov/_output.txt ) ←
13:22:17 <pchampin> steve: the rest of the slides is about sub-details of all the above
Steve Harris: the rest of the slides is about sub-details of all the above [ Scribe Assist by Pierre-Antoine Champin ] ←
13:23:08 <pchampin> Note that NQuads is not strictly a subset of anything else.
Pierre-Antoine Champin: Note that NQuads is not strictly a subset of anything else. ←
13:23:15 <LeeF> N-Quads can't serialize empty graphs.
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Unknown LeeF: N-Quads can't serialize empty graphs. ←
13:23:57 <LeeF> Or if it can, I'd like to see how?
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Unknown LeeF: Or if it can, I'd like to see how? ←
13:24:42 <pchampin> peter: you can state that <uri> a :EmptyGraph
Peter Patel-Schneider: you can state that <uri> a :EmptyGraph [ Scribe Assist by Pierre-Antoine Champin ] ←
13:24:45 <webr3> empty graph is just <x> a Graph . surely, you know you have a graph, and a name for it, but nothing else
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Unknown webr3: empty graph is just <x> a Graph . surely, you know you have a graph, and a name for it, but nothing else ←
13:25:20 <pchampin> ivan: back to NQuads, there is a broken symetry here
Ivan Herman: back to NQuads, there is a broken symetry here [ Scribe Assist by Pierre-Antoine Champin ] ←
13:25:41 <sandro> not at all web3r. Knowing a graph is empty is quite different from not knowing whether it is empty.
Sandro Hawke: not at all web3r. Knowing a graph is empty is quite different from not knowing whether it is empty. ←
13:26:03 <webr3> good point
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Unknown webr3: good point ←
13:26:11 <gavinc> Open World ;) No it isn't
Gavin Carothers: Open World ;) No it isn't ←
13:26:19 <pchampin> cygri: Trig and NQuads basically reuse a big part of Turtle (terms) and adds a few production rules around them.
Richard Cyganiak: Trig and NQuads basically reuse a big part of Turtle (terms) and adds a few production rules around them. [ Scribe Assist by Pierre-Antoine Champin ] ←
13:26:24 <webr3> double good point lol
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Unknown webr3: double good point lol ←
13:27:27 <pchampin> cygri: I don't think it is essential to many people that NTriples is a subset of turtle; same for NQuads
Richard Cyganiak: I don't think it is essential to many people that NTriples is a subset of turtle; same for NQuads [ Scribe Assist by Pierre-Antoine Champin ] ←
13:28:17 <gavinc> Binary RDF!! Bring it on!
Gavin Carothers: Binary RDF!! Bring it on! ←
13:28:18 <pchampin> paul: the absence of symetry makes it harder to teach
Paul Groth: the absence of symetry makes it harder to teach [ Scribe Assist by Pierre-Antoine Champin ] ←
13:28:32 <LeeF> Is N-Quads in current use?
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Unknown LeeF: Is N-Quads in current use? ←
13:28:35 <pchampin> cygri: we have a lot of things on the table that make it even harder to teach
Richard Cyganiak: we have a lot of things on the table that make it even harder to teach [ Scribe Assist by Pierre-Antoine Champin ] ←
13:28:41 <LeeF> Or do we have flexibility to (re-)define it?
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Unknown LeeF: Or do we have flexibility to (re-)define it? ←
13:28:55 <zwu2> yes, Oracle is using n-quads
Zhe Wu: yes, Oracle is using n-quads ←
13:28:59 <LeeF> zwu2, thanks
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Unknown LeeF: zwu2, thanks ←
13:29:05 <gavinc> Yes, TopQuadrant is using N-Quads
Gavin Carothers: Yes, TopQuadrant is using N-Quads ←
13:30:09 <pchampin> mischat: NQuads is very easy to parse and generate,
Mischa Tuffield: NQuads is very easy to parse and generate, [ Scribe Assist by Pierre-Antoine Champin ] ←
13:30:30 <pchampin> while most Trig parsers I have tried do not work well with big files
Pierre-Antoine Champin: while most Trig parsers I have tried do not work well with big files ←
13:30:46 <gavinc> Where "big" is tiny
Gavin Carothers: Where "big" is tiny ←
13:30:59 <zwu2> +1 to mischat
13:31:14 <LeeF> We work pretty regularly with large TriG files, without much difficulty.
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Unknown LeeF: We work pretty regularly with large TriG files, without much difficulty. ←
13:31:55 <gavinc> Lee, 60 million+ triples?
Gavin Carothers: Lee, 60 million+ triples? ←
13:32:17 <gavinc> well, quads ;)
Gavin Carothers: well, quads ;) ←
13:32:24 <LeeF> I think it's a mistake to just do N-Quads. There is real value to human-convenient syntax. We've seen that over and over with turtle (vis a vis N-triples). I don't think it's any different for quads.
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Unknown LeeF: I think it's a mistake to just do N-Quads. There is real value to human-convenient syntax. We've seen that over and over with turtle (vis a vis N-triples). I don't think it's any different for quads. ←
13:32:53 <LeeF> gavinc, yes, I believe so, though I can ask around for particular details
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Unknown LeeF: gavinc, yes, I believe so, though I can ask around for particular details ←
13:32:54 <pchampin> cygri: the SPARQL document manages to describe datasets without a standard syntax
Richard Cyganiak: the SPARQL document manages to describe datasets without a standard syntax [ Scribe Assist by Pierre-Antoine Champin ] ←
13:34:29 <pchampin> guus: by avoiding the quads+terse box, we lose symetry, but we normalize what is already out there
Guus Schreiber: by avoiding the quads+terse box, we lose symetry, but we normalize what is already out there [ Scribe Assist by Pierre-Antoine Champin ] ←
13:35:34 <cygri> A tree with Turtle as the root, and three children "TriG/SPARQL Update", "N-Triples", "N-Quads"
Richard Cyganiak: A tree with Turtle as the root, and three children "TriG/SPARQL Update", "N-Triples", "N-Quads" ←
13:36:07 <davidwood> q?
David Wood: q? ←
13:37:10 <pchampin> steve: SPARQL update is very similar to TriG, except it has keyword GRAPH in front of the graph URI
Steve Harris: SPARQL update is very similar to TriG, except it has keyword GRAPH in front of the graph URI [ Scribe Assist by Pierre-Antoine Champin ] ←
13:38:57 <mischat> mailing list
Mischa Tuffield: mailing list ←
13:39:13 <webr3> can you do anything with one that you cannot do with the other? (re trig/n-quads)
Scribe problem: the name 'webr3' does not match any of the 27 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Ivan Herman Mischa Tuffield Dan Brickley Christopher Matheus Peter Patel-Schneider Jan Wielemaker Jean-François Baget Nicholas Humfrey Yves Raimond Richard Cyganiak Pierre-Antoine Champin Fabien Gandon Steve Harris Matteo Brunati Sandro Hawke David Wood Guus Schreiber Antoine Zimmermann Gavin Carothers Thomas Steiner Zhe Wu Olivier Corby William Waites Paul Groth Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot
Scribe problem: the name 'webr3' does not match any of the 27 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Ivan Herman Mischa Tuffield Dan Brickley Christopher Matheus Peter Patel-Schneider Jan Wielemaker Jean-François Baget Nicholas Humfrey Yves Raimond Richard Cyganiak Pierre-Antoine Champin Fabien Gandon Steve Harris Matteo Brunati Sandro Hawke David Wood Guus Schreiber Antoine Zimmermann Gavin Carothers Thomas Steiner Zhe Wu Olivier Corby William Waites Paul Groth Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot
Unknown webr3: can you do anything with one that you cannot do with the other? (re trig/n-quads) ←
13:39:35 <gavinc> Yes, a human can read and write TriG ;)
Gavin Carothers: Yes, a human can read and write TriG ;) ←
13:39:42 <SteveH> "Turtle should remain as a syntax only for Triples, some other syntax should be defined to represent quad data"
Steve Harris: "Turtle should remain as a syntax only for Triples, some other syntax should be defined to represent quad data" ←
13:39:45 <LeeF> gavinc++
Scribe problem: the name 'LeeF' does not match any of the 27 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Ivan Herman Mischa Tuffield Dan Brickley Christopher Matheus Peter Patel-Schneider Jan Wielemaker Jean-François Baget Nicholas Humfrey Yves Raimond Richard Cyganiak Pierre-Antoine Champin Fabien Gandon Steve Harris Matteo Brunati Sandro Hawke David Wood Guus Schreiber Antoine Zimmermann Gavin Carothers Thomas Steiner Zhe Wu Olivier Corby William Waites Paul Groth Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot
Scribe problem: the name 'LeeF' does not match any of the 27 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Ivan Herman Mischa Tuffield Dan Brickley Christopher Matheus Peter Patel-Schneider Jan Wielemaker Jean-François Baget Nicholas Humfrey Yves Raimond Richard Cyganiak Pierre-Antoine Champin Fabien Gandon Steve Harris Matteo Brunati Sandro Hawke David Wood Guus Schreiber Antoine Zimmermann Gavin Carothers Thomas Steiner Zhe Wu Olivier Corby William Waites Paul Groth Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot
Unknown LeeF: gavinc++ ←
13:40:17 <gavinc> You can also do horrible things with awk and sort to N-Quads ;)
Gavin Carothers: You can also do horrible things with awk and sort to N-Quads ;) ←
13:40:22 <yvesr> :)
Yves Raimond: :) ←
13:41:02 <mischat> http://mmt.me.uk/misc/photo.JPG
Mischa Tuffield: http://mmt.me.uk/misc/photo.JPG ←
13:41:04 <pchampin> PROPOSED: Turtle should remain as a syntax only for Triples, some other syntax should be defined to represent quad data
PROPOSED: Turtle should remain as a syntax only for Triples, some other syntax should be defined to represent quad data ←
13:41:09 <webr3> +1
Scribe problem: the name 'webr3' does not match any of the 27 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Ivan Herman Mischa Tuffield Dan Brickley Christopher Matheus Peter Patel-Schneider Jan Wielemaker Jean-François Baget Nicholas Humfrey Yves Raimond Richard Cyganiak Pierre-Antoine Champin Fabien Gandon Steve Harris Matteo Brunati Sandro Hawke David Wood Guus Schreiber Antoine Zimmermann Gavin Carothers Thomas Steiner Zhe Wu Olivier Corby William Waites Paul Groth Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot
Scribe problem: the name 'webr3' does not match any of the 27 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Ivan Herman Mischa Tuffield Dan Brickley Christopher Matheus Peter Patel-Schneider Jan Wielemaker Jean-François Baget Nicholas Humfrey Yves Raimond Richard Cyganiak Pierre-Antoine Champin Fabien Gandon Steve Harris Matteo Brunati Sandro Hawke David Wood Guus Schreiber Antoine Zimmermann Gavin Carothers Thomas Steiner Zhe Wu Olivier Corby William Waites Paul Groth Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot
Unknown webr3: +1 ←
13:41:11 <cygri> +1
Richard Cyganiak: +1 ←
13:41:11 <yvesr> +1
Yves Raimond: +1 ←
13:41:11 <LeeF> +1
Scribe problem: the name 'LeeF' does not match any of the 27 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Ivan Herman Mischa Tuffield Dan Brickley Christopher Matheus Peter Patel-Schneider Jan Wielemaker Jean-François Baget Nicholas Humfrey Yves Raimond Richard Cyganiak Pierre-Antoine Champin Fabien Gandon Steve Harris Matteo Brunati Sandro Hawke David Wood Guus Schreiber Antoine Zimmermann Gavin Carothers Thomas Steiner Zhe Wu Olivier Corby William Waites Paul Groth Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot
Scribe problem: the name 'LeeF' does not match any of the 27 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Ivan Herman Mischa Tuffield Dan Brickley Christopher Matheus Peter Patel-Schneider Jan Wielemaker Jean-François Baget Nicholas Humfrey Yves Raimond Richard Cyganiak Pierre-Antoine Champin Fabien Gandon Steve Harris Matteo Brunati Sandro Hawke David Wood Guus Schreiber Antoine Zimmermann Gavin Carothers Thomas Steiner Zhe Wu Olivier Corby William Waites Paul Groth Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot
Unknown LeeF: +1 ←
13:41:11 <gavinc> ++1
Gavin Carothers: ++1 ←
13:41:15 <zwu2> +1
13:41:16 <SteveH> +1
Steve Harris: +1 ←
13:41:16 <ivan> +1
Ivan Herman: +1 ←
13:41:17 <mischat> +!
Mischa Tuffield: +! ←
13:41:17 <mbrunati> +1
Matteo Brunati: +1 ←
13:41:19 <sandro> +0
Sandro Hawke: +0 ←
13:41:19 <mischat> +1
Mischa Tuffield: +1 ←
13:41:20 <ericP> ⧺1
Scribe problem: the name 'ericP' does not match any of the 27 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Ivan Herman Mischa Tuffield Dan Brickley Christopher Matheus Peter Patel-Schneider Jan Wielemaker Jean-François Baget Nicholas Humfrey Yves Raimond Richard Cyganiak Pierre-Antoine Champin Fabien Gandon Steve Harris Matteo Brunati Sandro Hawke David Wood Guus Schreiber Antoine Zimmermann Gavin Carothers Thomas Steiner Zhe Wu Olivier Corby William Waites Paul Groth Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot
Scribe problem: the name 'ericP' does not match any of the 27 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Ivan Herman Mischa Tuffield Dan Brickley Christopher Matheus Peter Patel-Schneider Jan Wielemaker Jean-François Baget Nicholas Humfrey Yves Raimond Richard Cyganiak Pierre-Antoine Champin Fabien Gandon Steve Harris Matteo Brunati Sandro Hawke David Wood Guus Schreiber Antoine Zimmermann Gavin Carothers Thomas Steiner Zhe Wu Olivier Corby William Waites Paul Groth Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot
Unknown ericP: ⧺1 ←
13:41:21 <pfps> 0
0 ←
13:41:23 <FabGandon> +1
Fabien Gandon: +1 ←
13:41:23 <NickH> +1
Nicholas Humfrey: +1 ←
13:41:24 <pchampin> pchampin: +1
Pierre-Antoine Champin: +1 [ Scribe Assist by Pierre-Antoine Champin ] ←
13:41:24 <davidwood> +1
David Wood: +1 ←
13:41:24 <cmatheus> +0
Christopher Matheus: +0 ←
13:41:27 <danbri> +1
Dan Brickley: +1 ←
13:41:36 <sandro> really -0
Sandro Hawke: really -0 ←
13:41:47 <sandro> (I prefer one syntax with graph literals or something)
Sandro Hawke: (I prefer one syntax with graph literals or something) ←
13:41:47 <JFB> +1
Jean-François Baget: +1 ←
13:41:56 <ericP> ⧻1 ?
Scribe problem: the name 'ericP' does not match any of the 27 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Ivan Herman Mischa Tuffield Dan Brickley Christopher Matheus Peter Patel-Schneider Jan Wielemaker Jean-François Baget Nicholas Humfrey Yves Raimond Richard Cyganiak Pierre-Antoine Champin Fabien Gandon Steve Harris Matteo Brunati Sandro Hawke David Wood Guus Schreiber Antoine Zimmermann Gavin Carothers Thomas Steiner Zhe Wu Olivier Corby William Waites Paul Groth Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot
Scribe problem: the name 'ericP' does not match any of the 27 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Ivan Herman Mischa Tuffield Dan Brickley Christopher Matheus Peter Patel-Schneider Jan Wielemaker Jean-François Baget Nicholas Humfrey Yves Raimond Richard Cyganiak Pierre-Antoine Champin Fabien Gandon Steve Harris Matteo Brunati Sandro Hawke David Wood Guus Schreiber Antoine Zimmermann Gavin Carothers Thomas Steiner Zhe Wu Olivier Corby William Waites Paul Groth Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot
Unknown ericP: ⧻1 ? ←
13:42:06 <webr3> sandro, +1, n3 like though, not quad like for me
Scribe problem: the name 'webr3' does not match any of the 27 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Ivan Herman Mischa Tuffield Dan Brickley Christopher Matheus Peter Patel-Schneider Jan Wielemaker Jean-François Baget Nicholas Humfrey Yves Raimond Richard Cyganiak Pierre-Antoine Champin Fabien Gandon Steve Harris Matteo Brunati Sandro Hawke David Wood Guus Schreiber Antoine Zimmermann Gavin Carothers Thomas Steiner Zhe Wu Olivier Corby William Waites Paul Groth Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot
Scribe problem: the name 'webr3' does not match any of the 27 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Ivan Herman Mischa Tuffield Dan Brickley Christopher Matheus Peter Patel-Schneider Jan Wielemaker Jean-François Baget Nicholas Humfrey Yves Raimond Richard Cyganiak Pierre-Antoine Champin Fabien Gandon Steve Harris Matteo Brunati Sandro Hawke David Wood Guus Schreiber Antoine Zimmermann Gavin Carothers Thomas Steiner Zhe Wu Olivier Corby William Waites Paul Groth Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot
Unknown webr3: sandro, +1, n3 like though, not quad like for me ←
13:42:24 <gavinc> (Yes)
Gavin Carothers: (Yes) ←
13:42:29 <sandro> <http://www.w3.org/2009/CommonScribe/> foaf:hates sandro:ericP.
Sandro Hawke: <http://www.w3.org/2009/CommonScribe/> foaf:hates sandro:ericP. ←
13:43:14 <zwu2> nice conference room
Zhe Wu: nice conference room ←
13:43:22 <pchampin> ivan: before we take a break and go to JSON,
Ivan Herman: before we take a break and go to JSON, [ Scribe Assist by Pierre-Antoine Champin ] ←
13:43:36 <pchampin> I would like to talk about the documentation style of Turtle
Pierre-Antoine Champin: I would like to talk about the documentation style of Turtle ←
13:43:56 <pchampin> about which Peter and Erik disagreed longly
Pierre-Antoine Champin: about which Peter and EricP disagreed longly ←
13:44:24 <mischat> s/Erik/EricP/
13:44:26 <davidwood> s/Erik/Eric/
13:44:26 <ericP> i'm sympathetic to pfps's debugging point
Scribe problem: the name 'ericP' does not match any of the 27 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Ivan Herman Mischa Tuffield Dan Brickley Christopher Matheus Peter Patel-Schneider Jan Wielemaker Jean-François Baget Nicholas Humfrey Yves Raimond Richard Cyganiak Pierre-Antoine Champin Fabien Gandon Steve Harris Matteo Brunati Sandro Hawke David Wood Guus Schreiber Antoine Zimmermann Gavin Carothers Thomas Steiner Zhe Wu Olivier Corby William Waites Paul Groth Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot
Scribe problem: the name 'ericP' does not match any of the 27 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Ivan Herman Mischa Tuffield Dan Brickley Christopher Matheus Peter Patel-Schneider Jan Wielemaker Jean-François Baget Nicholas Humfrey Yves Raimond Richard Cyganiak Pierre-Antoine Champin Fabien Gandon Steve Harris Matteo Brunati Sandro Hawke David Wood Guus Schreiber Antoine Zimmermann Gavin Carothers Thomas Steiner Zhe Wu Olivier Corby William Waites Paul Groth Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot
Unknown ericP: i'm sympathetic to pfps's debugging point ←
13:44:29 <pchampin> guus: as it is an editorial problem, I think we can postpone it
Guus Schreiber: as it is an editorial problem, I think we can postpone it [ Scribe Assist by Pierre-Antoine Champin ] ←
13:44:31 <gavinc> 15 minutes?
Gavin Carothers: 15 minutes? ←
13:44:38 <cygri> 20min
Richard Cyganiak: 20min ←
13:44:45 <mischat> manu1: json stuff when we get back
Scribe problem: the name 'manu1' does not match any of the 27 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Ivan Herman Mischa Tuffield Dan Brickley Christopher Matheus Peter Patel-Schneider Jan Wielemaker Jean-François Baget Nicholas Humfrey Yves Raimond Richard Cyganiak Pierre-Antoine Champin Fabien Gandon Steve Harris Matteo Brunati Sandro Hawke David Wood Guus Schreiber Antoine Zimmermann Gavin Carothers Thomas Steiner Zhe Wu Olivier Corby William Waites Paul Groth Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot
Unknown manu1: json stuff when we get back [ Scribe Assist by Mischa Tuffield ] ←
13:44:47 <mischat> in 20 mins
Mischa Tuffield: in 20 mins ←
13:45:29 <Zakim> -OlivierCorby.aaaa
Zakim IRC Bot: -OlivierCorby.aaaa ←
13:46:09 <manu> zakim, code?
Scribe problem: the name 'manu' does not match any of the 27 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Ivan Herman Mischa Tuffield Dan Brickley Christopher Matheus Peter Patel-Schneider Jan Wielemaker Jean-François Baget Nicholas Humfrey Yves Raimond Richard Cyganiak Pierre-Antoine Champin Fabien Gandon Steve Harris Matteo Brunati Sandro Hawke David Wood Guus Schreiber Antoine Zimmermann Gavin Carothers Thomas Steiner Zhe Wu Olivier Corby William Waites Paul Groth Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot
Scribe problem: the name 'manu' does not match any of the 27 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Ivan Herman Mischa Tuffield Dan Brickley Christopher Matheus Peter Patel-Schneider Jan Wielemaker Jean-François Baget Nicholas Humfrey Yves Raimond Richard Cyganiak Pierre-Antoine Champin Fabien Gandon Steve Harris Matteo Brunati Sandro Hawke David Wood Guus Schreiber Antoine Zimmermann Gavin Carothers Thomas Steiner Zhe Wu Olivier Corby William Waites Paul Groth Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot
Unknown manu: zakim, code? ←
13:46:09 <Zakim> the conference code is 733941 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.26.46.79.03 tel:+44.203.318.0479), manu
Zakim IRC Bot: the conference code is 733941 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.26.46.79.03 tel:+44.203.318.0479), manu ←
13:46:11 <Zakim> -LeeF
Zakim IRC Bot: -LeeF ←
13:46:11 <Zakim> -zwu2
Zakim IRC Bot: -zwu2 ←
13:46:23 <Zakim> +??P1
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P1 ←
13:46:30 <Zakim> -??P26
Zakim IRC Bot: -??P26 ←
13:46:31 <Zakim> -EricP
Zakim IRC Bot: -EricP ←
13:46:38 <manu> zakim, I am ??P1
Scribe problem: the name 'manu' does not match any of the 27 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Ivan Herman Mischa Tuffield Dan Brickley Christopher Matheus Peter Patel-Schneider Jan Wielemaker Jean-François Baget Nicholas Humfrey Yves Raimond Richard Cyganiak Pierre-Antoine Champin Fabien Gandon Steve Harris Matteo Brunati Sandro Hawke David Wood Guus Schreiber Antoine Zimmermann Gavin Carothers Thomas Steiner Zhe Wu Olivier Corby William Waites Paul Groth Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot
Scribe problem: the name 'manu' does not match any of the 27 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Ivan Herman Mischa Tuffield Dan Brickley Christopher Matheus Peter Patel-Schneider Jan Wielemaker Jean-François Baget Nicholas Humfrey Yves Raimond Richard Cyganiak Pierre-Antoine Champin Fabien Gandon Steve Harris Matteo Brunati Sandro Hawke David Wood Guus Schreiber Antoine Zimmermann Gavin Carothers Thomas Steiner Zhe Wu Olivier Corby William Waites Paul Groth Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot
Unknown manu: zakim, I am ??P1 ←
13:46:38 <Zakim> +manu; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +manu; got it ←
Formatted by CommonScribe
This revision (#6) generated 2011-04-13 14:03:23 UTC by 'unknown', comments: None
