See also: IRC log
<trackbot> Date: 24 September 2009
<kford> UAAG10 Techniques:
<kford> ATAG Techniques:
<kford> WCAG2.0 Techniques
<kford> scribing link http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/scribing.html
Kelly: Details of event more
finalized. Multimedia discussion on Sunday doesn't overlap with
... Not sure how absolutely required it is to come with material to present, as opposed to discussing what is brought up.
Jeanne: No remote access will be available. The workshop will be mostly small group sessions and informal conversations.
Jeanne can't go; Kelly will study agenda to determine, and find who from Microsoft is going; Jim won't go.
Henny working on getting authorization.
Jeanne: Do hotel reservations soon, and new penalties if you miss registration deadlines. At least sign form for remote access.
Kelly: Jeanne and Kelly exploring
doing presentation. Deadline is the 16th.
... Possible topic is having Henny and Kelly and a few other browser vendors, could do roundtable on what user agents are doing.
Otherwise due basic presentation on UAAG and what is going on.
Jeanne: Would like to pursue the panel concept.
Jim: Mike get David Bolter (sp?) of U. Toronto working on Mozilla, Henny from Opera, David Tseng of Safari.
Kelly: Will send email to try rounding up participants.
<scribe> ACTION: KFord to initiate contacts with browser vendors around CSUN presentation [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/09/24-ua-minutes.html#action01]
<trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - KFord
<scribe> ACTION: kford to initiate contacts with browser vendors around CSUN presentation [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/09/24-ua-minutes.html#action02]
<trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - kford
<jeanne> ACTION: KF to initiate contacts with browser vendors around CSUN presentation [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/09/24-ua-minutes.html#action03]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-232 - Initiate contacts with browser vendors around CSUN presentation [on Kelly Ford - due 2009-10-01].
Jeanne: did basic presentation last year, so probably won't do one again this year if we can get the round table.
Jim: If sponsored by W3, will have someone on panel to give a few minutes overview.
Kelly: Reiterate need for timely registration, live/remote, hotel. Generally 9-5 each day, with breaks.
Jeanne: Pleased by how this is
working. Talking with WAI about not having Techniques document,
but instead just an Understanding document, because WAI can't
tell browser vendors HOW to do specific things.
... Other groups seem supportive of UA doing it the way that best serves our audience, even if not consistent with other WAI projects.
<kford> Scribe: Greg
Jeanne: Still need to write test procedures to qualify for candidate review, so one can tell if success criteria have been met by implementers.
Kelly: For example, guideline saying you need to slow media playback to 75% of normal; the Understanding document would say to UA vendor the high-level requirement, and provide test criteria like "media played at 75% normal rate".
Jeanne: Give developers lots of information, including rationale, examples, resources, just not detailed implementation details.
<jeanne> ATAG Example: http://www.w3.org/WAI/AU/2009/ED-ATAG20-TECHS-20090909/
Greg: I'd like to see the Rationale include breakdown of affected groups; I used that in Microsoft accessibility standards and it helped the audience really understand the benefits and organize or prioritize potential changes by affected population.
Jim: May be able to repurpose many WCAG tests, as all tests are ultimately done using browsers.
Jeanne: Instead of cribbing we could have our Resources section link directly to the tests in the other documents.
Kelly: Jeanne confirms test procedures will be manual steps.
Jeanne: Test procedures get done when going to last call.
Kelly: Developing automated test suite for our success criteria would be challenging, but manual procedures are fairly straightforward.
Greg: It's easy to say, 'test every piece of UI in the product and every potential piece of rendered UI', but in practice that's not realistic, so we have to provide guidance on prioritizing portions of the UI, etc. and probably test cases for rendered content.
Jeanne: Maybe. For WCAG to get out of CR, had to test every candidate and look at every page. Some sites were thousands of pages, and they looked at representative templates and tested those thoroughly.
Kelly: In reality it's true that not everything gets tested. He's seen different accessibility criteria take different approaches, such as "key user scenarios", etc.
Jeanne: Clarifies that these test procedures are used internally, not by vendors, where the working group demonstrates that the techniques are being used in the real world by demonstrating at least two instances in released products.
Greg: Sorry, my misunderstanding; I assumed we were talking about the Understanding document including testing techniques for vendors, purchasing agents, etc. for verification.
Jeanne: WCAG did publish their internal testing techniques for other people to use.
Greg: I recommend we include such in our understanding document, as it would be extremely useful for our audiences.
Jeanne: Postpone discussion until we have the full group.
All: Seem to never have discussed this survey in detail.
Propoasal 4.x Rationale, from Kim Patch: As Web pages have gotten more complicated, there are many situations where users who find it difficult or impossible to use the mouse need more than sequential navigation. Direct navigation allows such users, including speech users, to quickly navigate Web elements.
Kim: Mark sent email on 7/30 with a new proposed guideline based on discussion of this original proposal.
<kford> Kim: Reminding group Mark may have taken things a bit further.
<mth> yes... I will have some input in time for the next concall.
<mth> also some comments on kelly's speed up/slow down of media
Kelly: People OK with accepting this as a replacement for 4.7, and then revising from there? 4.7 today only has two points, structured navigation and configuring set of important elements. This proposal adds three new success criteria.
Jeanne: Really likes it.
Kelly: Thanks Kim, Henny, and Mark for doing this work, and all in a week.
Jeanne: Discussion questions from Mark are included in the email.
Issue: There is some concern about the mixing/over-ride of app-supplied key
<trackbot> Created ISSUE-45 - There is some concern about the mixing/over-ride of app-supplied key ; please complete additional details at http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/tracker/issues/45/edit .
commands with auto-generated key labels. Pass-through display of author
defined keys? Configurable?
(That was not intended to create an issue, sorry.)
Kelly: Re second issue, feels developer should be able to choose ordering scheme they feel is appropriate, rather than us specifying one.
Jim: Default is usually for user agent to use the order of items in the source.
Greg: It seems like all the
issues Mark lists are for techniques/understanding, don't have
to deal with them now.
... However there are some minor changes needed to the proposed success criteria.
... Just want to make sure we think through the details and make sure there are no unintended consequences.
Kelly: Propose we accept it into the editor's draft.
Kelly's proposal was accepted.
<jeanne> ACTION: JS to update draft replacing 4.7 with the proposal from http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2009JulSep/0023.html [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/09/24-ua-minutes.html#action04]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-233 - Update draft replacing 4.7 with the proposal from http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2009JulSep/0023.html [on Jeanne Spellman - due 2009-10-01].
<jeanne> RESOLUTION: Jeanne to update the draft with the new proposal for 4.7 from the Hakkinen email of July 30 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2009JulSep/0023.html
Proposal 4.X.1 "Directly activate elements" is covered by the rewrite to 4.7.
Proposal 4.X.2 Modify show/hide indicator
Kim thinks this could be relegated to Understanding, it was perhaps too detailed elaboration on the new 4.7.5 which requires direct navigation identifiers be perceivable.
Proposal 4.X.3 Control appearance of click indicators
Greg: This is also probably already covered by general configurability requirements.
Kelly: All of these seem to be
generally calling on the developers to be intelligent and use
good UI for the new convent it adds to or overlays onto the
... Could add a note to address this in the Understanding document, ensure the usability requirements are adequately conveyed to UA developers.
Greg: This applies in other areas, such as Alt text displayed in place of images.
Proposal 4.X.5 Toggle dynamic updates
Kim: Also could be relegated to Understanding, but definitely should address there as some pages with many links can cause problems.
Greg: If you're worried that UA developers may do a lazy job implementing this such that some pages because unusably slow with this feature, if you really want to avoid that happening the only way is to include it in an S.C.
<jeanne> I can't get back on the call, because we are past time. :(
Kim: Firefox Mouseless Browsing found they had to add this toggle feature.
Kelly: Sounds like a small thing that can be in Understanding.
Kim: To be clear, Google Docs
pages are an example where pages refresh content so often that
the UA slows down too much because it tries to analyze
numbering of too many items too frequently.
... Good usability for numbering to include all links regardless of whether currently visible, so that things don't change when you scroll and you can memorize frequently used numbers.
Jim: Gone the next three weeks.
This is scribe.perl Revision: 1.135 of Date: 2009/03/02 03:52:20 Check for newer version at http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/ Guessing input format: RRSAgent_Text_Format (score 1.00) Found Scribe: Greg Inferring ScribeNick: Greg Default Present: kford, Jim_Allan, +1.425.895.aabb, Jeanne, +1.617.325.aacc Present: Greg Jeanne Kelly Kim Jim WARNING: Replacing previous Regrets list. (Old list: Simon) Use 'Regrets+ ... ' if you meant to add people without replacing the list, such as: <dbooth> Regrets+ JAN Regrets: JAN Simon Henny Found Date: 24 Sep 2009 Guessing minutes URL: http://www.w3.org/2009/09/24-ua-minutes.html People with action items: js kf kford WARNING: Input appears to use implicit continuation lines. You may need the "-implicitContinuations" option.[End of scribe.perl diagnostic output]