IRC log of ua on 2009-09-24

Timestamps are in UTC.

16:04:09 [RRSAgent]: RRSAgent has joined #ua
16:04:09 [RRSAgent]: logging to http://www.w3.org/2009/09/24-ua-irc
16:04:11 [trackbot]: RRSAgent, make logs public
16:04:11 [Zakim]: Zakim has joined #ua
16:04:13 [trackbot]: Zakim, this will be WAI_UAWG
16:04:13 [Zakim]: ok, trackbot; I see WAI_UAWG()1:00PM scheduled to start in 56 minutes
16:04:14 [trackbot]: Meeting: User Agent Accessibility Guidelines Working Group Teleconference
16:04:14 [trackbot]: Date: 24 September 2009
16:05:21 [kford]: chair: Jim_Allan
16:09:45 [kford]: Agenda+ Logistics (Regrets, agenda requests, comments)?
16:09:46 [kford]: Agenda+ Media discussion prior to TPAC on 11/1 http://www.w3.org/2009/09/acc-media-html-gathering.html
16:09:48 [kford]: Agenda+ CSUN 2010 UA Presentation http://www.csunconference.org/
16:09:49 [kford]: Agenda+ Face to face – sign up and book hotel - http://www.w3.org/2009/11/TPAC/
16:09:51 [kford]: Agenda+ Understanding/Techniques document
16:09:52 [kford]: Agenda+ Discuss part of survey not talked about from http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20090722/
16:09:54 [kford]: Agenda+ Talk about Guideline 4.9 Provide control of content that may reduce accessibility.
16:09:56 [kford]: Agenda+ review any new proposals sent to list
16:09:57 [kford]: Agenda+ Think about techniques in preparation for F2F.
16:09:59 [kford]: UAAG10 Techniques:
16:10:00 [kford]: http://www.w3.org/TR/2002/NOTE-UAAG10-TECHS-20021217/
16:10:02 [kford]: ATAG Techniques:
16:10:03 [kford]: http://www.w3.org/WAI/AU/2009/ED-ATAG20-TECHS-20090814/#gl-Web-based-accessi
16:10:05 [kford]: ble
16:10:06 [kford]: WCAG2.0 Techniques
16:10:08 [kford]: http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG20-TECHS/
16:10:33 [kford]: rrsagent, make minutes
16:10:33 [RRSAgent]: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/09/24-ua-minutes.html kford
16:47:13 [Greg]: Greg has joined #ua
16:56:03 [Zakim]: WAI_UAWG()1:00PM has now started
16:56:10 [Zakim]: + +1.425.883.aaaa
16:56:45 [kford]: zakim, 1.425.883.aaaa is kford
16:56:45 [Zakim]: sorry, kford, I do not recognize a party named '1.425.883.aaaa'
16:57:00 [kford]: zakim, +1.425.883.aaaa is kford
16:57:00 [Zakim]: +kford; got it
16:58:35 [kford]: zakim, agenda?
16:58:35 [Zakim]: I see 9 items remaining on the agenda:
16:58:36 [Zakim]: 1. Logistics (Regrets, agenda requests, comments)? [from kford]
16:58:39 [Zakim]: 2. Media discussion prior to TPAC on 11/1 http://www.w3.org/2009/09/acc-media-html-gathering.html [from kford]
16:58:41 [Zakim]: 3. CSUN 2010 UA Presentation http://www.csunconference.org/ [from kford]
16:58:44 [Zakim]: 4. Face to face – sign up and book hotel - http://www.w3.org/2009/11/TPAC/ [from kford]
16:58:46 [Zakim]: 5. Understanding/Techniques document [from kford]
16:58:47 [Zakim]: 6. Discuss part of survey not talked about from http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20090722/ [from kford]
16:58:49 [Zakim]: 7. Talk about Guideline 4.9 Provide control of content that may reduce accessibility. [from kford]
16:58:52 [Zakim]: 8. review any new proposals sent to list [from kford]
16:58:53 [Zakim]: 9. Think about techniques in preparation for F2F. [from kford]
16:59:46 [Zakim]: +Jim_Allan
17:01:08 [Zakim]: + +1.425.895.aabb
17:02:41 [kford]: Regrets: Simon
17:04:57 [jeanne]: jeanne has joined #ua
17:05:13 [KimPatch]: KimPatch has joined #ua
17:05:27 [jeanne]: zakim, code?
17:05:27 [Zakim]: the conference code is 82941 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), jeanne
17:05:37 [Zakim]: +Jeanne
17:05:52 [Zakim]: + +1.617.325.aacc
17:08:36 [kford]: regrets: JAN
17:09:36 [kford]: scribing link http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/scribing.html
17:09:55 [kford]: zakim, take up item 1
17:09:55 [Zakim]: agendum 1. "Logistics (Regrets, agenda requests, comments)?" taken up [from kford]
17:10:32 [kford]: Present: Greg, Jim, Kim, Jim, Kelly, Jeanne
17:11:22 [kford]: zakim, close this item
17:11:22 [Zakim]: agendum 1 closed
17:11:24 [Zakim]: I see 8 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
17:11:25 [Zakim]: 2. Media discussion prior to TPAC on 11/1 http://www.w3.org/2009/09/acc-media-html-gathering.html [from kford]
17:12:16 [Greg]: Kelly: Details of event more finalized. Multimedia discussion on Sunday doesn't overlap with our days.
17:12:45 [Greg]: Kelly: Not sure how absolutely required it is to come with material to present, as opposed to discussing what is brought up.
17:13:16 [Greg]: Jeanne: No remote access will be available. The workshop will be mostly small group sessions and informal conversations.
17:14:04 [Greg]: Jeanne can't go; Kelly will study agenda to determine, and find who from Microsoft is going; Jim won't go.
17:15:00 [Greg]: Henny working on getting authorization.
17:15:27 [kford]: zakim, close this item
17:15:27 [Zakim]: I do not know what agendum had been taken up, kford
17:15:30 [Greg]: Jeanne: Do hotel reservations soon, and new penalties if you miss registration deadlines. At least sign form for remote access.
17:15:39 [kford]: zakim, take up item 2
17:15:39 [Zakim]: agendum 2. "Media discussion prior to TPAC on 11/1 http://www.w3.org/2009/09/acc-media-html-gathering.html" taken up [from kford]
17:16:02 [kford]: zakim, close item 2
17:16:02 [Zakim]: agendum 2, Media discussion prior to TPAC on 11/1 http://www.w3.org/2009/09/acc-media-html-gathering.html, closed
17:16:04 [Zakim]: I see 7 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
17:16:05 [Zakim]: 3. CSUN 2010 UA Presentation http://www.csunconference.org/ [from kford]
17:16:23 [kford]: zakim, take up item 3
17:16:23 [Zakim]: agendum 3. "CSUN 2010 UA Presentation http://www.csunconference.org/" taken up [from kford]
17:16:47 [Zakim]: -kford
17:17:06 [Zakim]: +kford
17:17:49 [Greg]: Kelly: Jeanne and Kelly exploring doing presentation. Deadline is the 16th.
17:18:07 [mth]: mth has joined #ua
17:18:20 [Greg]: Kelly: Possible topic is having Henny and Kelly and a few other browser vendors, could do roundtable on what user agents are doing.
17:18:37 [Greg]: Otherwise due basic presentation on UAAG and what is going on.
17:19:21 [Greg]: Jeanne: Would like to pursue the panel concept.
17:20:36 [Greg]: Jim: Mike get David Bolter (sp?) of U. Toronto working on Mozilla, Henny from Opera, David Tseng of Safari.
17:21:01 [Greg]: Kelly: Will send email to try rounding up participants.
17:21:48 [Greg]: Action: KFord to initiate contacts with browser vendors around CSUN presentation
17:21:48 [trackbot]: Sorry, couldn't find user - KFord
17:22:11 [Greg]: Action: kford to initiate contacts with browser vendors around CSUN presentation
17:22:11 [trackbot]: Sorry, couldn't find user - kford
17:22:19 [jeanne]: Action: KF to initiate contacts with browser vendors around CSUN presentation
17:22:19 [trackbot]: Created ACTION-232 - Initiate contacts with browser vendors around CSUN presentation [on Kelly Ford - due 2009-10-01].
17:23:16 [Greg]: Jeanne: did basic presentation last year, so probably won't do one again this year if we can get the round table.
17:23:49 [Greg]: Jim: If sponsored by W3, will have someone on panel to give a few minutes overview.
17:24:13 [kford]: zakim, close item 3
17:24:13 [Zakim]: agendum 3, CSUN 2010 UA Presentation http://www.csunconference.org/, closed
17:24:15 [Zakim]: I see 6 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
17:24:16 [Zakim]: 4. Face to face – sign up and book hotel - http://www.w3.org/2009/11/TPAC/ [from kford]
17:25:32 [Greg]: Kelly: Reiterate need for timely registration, live/remote, hotel. Generally 9-5 each day, with breaks.
17:25:54 [kford]: zakim, close item 4
17:25:54 [Zakim]: agendum 4, Face to face – sign up and book hotel - http://www.w3.org/2009/11/TPAC/, closed
17:25:56 [Zakim]: I see 5 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
17:25:57 [Zakim]: 5. Understanding/Techniques document [from kford]
17:26:02 [kford]: zakim, take up item 5
17:26:02 [Zakim]: agendum 5. "Understanding/Techniques document" taken up [from kford]
17:27:22 [Greg]: Jeanne: Pleased by how this is working. Talking with WAI about not having Techniques document, but instead just an Understanding document, because WAI can't tell browser vendors HOW to do specific things.
17:28:08 [Greg]: Jeanne: Other groups seem supportive of UA doing it the way that best serves our audience, even if not consistent with other WAI projects.
17:28:14 [kford]: Scribe: Greg
17:28:44 [Greg]: Jeanne: Still need to write test procedures to qualify for candidate review, so one can tell if success criteria have been met by implementers.
17:30:18 [Greg]: Kelly: For example, guideline saying you need to slow media playback to 75% of normal; the Understanding document would say to UA vendor the high-level requirement, and provide test criteria like "media played at 75% normal rate".
17:30:49 [Greg]: Jeanne: Give developers lots of information, including rationale, examples, resources, just not detailed implementation details.
17:31:42 [jeanne]: ATAG Example: http://www.w3.org/WAI/AU/2009/ED-ATAG20-TECHS-20090909/
17:32:03 [Greg]: Greg: I'd like to see the Rationale include breakdown of affected groups; I used that in Microsoft accessibility standards and it helped the audience really understand the benefits and organize or prioritize potential changes by affected population.
17:33:56 [Greg]: Jim: May be able to repurpose many WCAG tests, as all tests are ultimately done using browsers.
17:34:59 [Greg]: Jeanne: Instead of cribbing we could have our Resources section link directly to the tests in the other documents.
17:35:34 [Greg]: Kelly: Jeanne confirms test procedures will be manual steps.
17:35:58 [Greg]: Jeanne: Test procedures get done when going to last call.
17:36:32 [Greg]: Kelly: Developing automated test suite for our success criteria would be challenging, but manual procedures are fairly straightforward.
17:37:34 [Greg]: Greg: It's easy to say, 'test every piece of UI in the product and every potential piece of rendered UI', but in practice that's not realistic, so we have to provide guidance on prioritizing portions of the UI, etc. and probably test cases for rendered content.
17:38:24 [Greg]: Jeanne: Maybe. For WCAG to get out of CR, had to test every candidate and look at every page. Some sites were thousands of pages, and they looked at representative templates and tested those thoroughly.
17:39:24 [Greg]: Kelly: In reality it's true that not everything gets tested. He's seen different accessibility criteria take different approaches, such as "key user scenarios", etc.
17:41:14 [Greg]: Jeanne: Clarifies that these test procedures are used internally, not by vendors, where the working group demonstrates that the techniques are being used in the real world by demonstrating at least two instances in released products.
17:42:36 [Greg]: Greg: Sorry, my misunderstanding; I assumed we were talking about the Understanding document including testing techniques for vendors, purchasing agents, etc. for verification.
17:43:07 [Greg]: Jeanne: WCAG did publish their internal testing techniques for other people to use.
17:43:53 [Greg]: Greg: I recommend we include such in our understanding document, as it would be extremely useful for our audiences.
17:44:08 [Greg]: Jeanne: Postpone discussion until we have the full group.
17:44:29 [kford]: zakim, close item 4
17:44:29 [Zakim]: agendum 4, Face to face – sign up and book hotel - http://www.w3.org/2009/11/TPAC/, closed
17:44:31 [Zakim]: I see 5 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
17:44:32 [Zakim]: 5. Understanding/Techniques document [from kford]
17:44:41 [kford]: zakim, close item 5
17:44:41 [Zakim]: agendum 5, Understanding/Techniques document, closed
17:44:42 [Zakim]: I see 4 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
17:44:43 [Zakim]: 6. Discuss part of survey not talked about from http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20090722/ [from kford]
17:44:51 [kford]: zakim, take up item 6
17:44:51 [Zakim]: agendum 6. "Discuss part of survey not talked about from http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20090722/" taken up [from kford]
17:46:55 [Greg]: All: Seem to never have discussed this survey in detail.
17:48:10 [Greg]: Propoasal 4.x Rationale, from Kim Patch: As Web pages have gotten more complicated, there are many situations where users who find it difficult or impossible to use the mouse need more than sequential navigation. Direct navigation allows such users, including speech users, to quickly navigate Web elements.
17:51:14 [jeanne]: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2009JulSep/0023.html
17:51:36 [Greg]: Kim: Mark sent email on 7/30 with a new proposed guideline based on discussion of this original proposal.
17:51:42 [kford]: Kim: Reminding group Mark may have taken things a bit further.
17:52:04 [jeanne]: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/
17:52:49 [mth]: yes... I will have some input in time for the next concall.
17:54:32 [mth]: also some comments on kelly's speed up/slow down of media
17:58:25 [jeanne]: http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/2009/ED-UAAG20-20090722/#gl-nav-structure
17:58:45 [Greg]: Kelly: People OK with accepting this as a replacement for 4.7, and then revising from there? 4.7 today only has two points, structured navigation and configuring set of important elements. This proposal adds three new success criteria.
17:59:01 [Greg]: Jeanne: Really likes it.
17:59:27 [Greg]: Kelly: Thanks Kim, Henny, and Mark for doing this work, and all in a week.
18:00:26 [Greg]: Jeanne: Discussion questions from Mark are included in the email.
18:03:26 [Greg]: Issue: There is some concern about the mixing/over-ride of app-supplied key
18:03:26 [trackbot]: Created ISSUE-45 - There is some concern about the mixing/over-ride of app-supplied key ; please complete additional details at http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/tracker/issues/45/edit .
18:03:27 [Greg]: commands with auto-generated key labels. Pass-through display of author
18:03:29 [Greg]: defined keys? Configurable?
18:04:41 [Greg]: (That was not intended to create an issue, sorry.)
18:05:36 [Greg]: Kelly: Re second issue, feels developer should be able to choose ordering scheme they feel is appropriate, rather than us specifying one.
18:06:50 [Greg]: Jim: Default is usually for user agent to use the order of items in the source.
18:09:01 [Greg]: Greg: It seems like all the issues Mark lists are for techniques/understanding, don't have to deal with them now.
18:11:28 [Greg]: Greg: However there are some minor changes needed to the proposed success criteria.
18:17:02 [Greg]: Greg: Just want to make sure we think through the details and make sure there are no unintended consequences.
18:19:07 [Greg]: Kelly: Propose we accept it into the editor's draft.
18:20:02 [Greg]: Kelly's proposal was accepted.
18:20:14 [jeanne]: action: JS to update draft replacing 4.7 with the proposal from http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2009JulSep/0023.html
18:20:14 [trackbot]: Created ACTION-233 - Update draft replacing 4.7 with the proposal from http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2009JulSep/0023.html [on Jeanne Spellman - due 2009-10-01].
18:20:51 [jeanne]: RESOLUTION: Jeanne to update the draft with the new proposal for 4.7 from the Hakkinen email of July 30 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2009JulSep/0023.html
18:21:00 [Greg]: Proposal 4.X.1 "Directly activate elements" is covered by the rewrite to 4.7.
18:21:40 [Greg]: Proposal 4.X.2 Modify show/hide indicator
18:22:39 [Greg]: Kim thinks this could be relegated to Understanding, it was perhaps too detailed elaboration on the new 4.7.5 which requires direct navigation identifiers be perceivable.
18:23:03 [Greg]: General agreement.
18:23:22 [Greg]: Proposal 4.X.3 Control appearance of click indicators
18:24:13 [Greg]: Greg: This is also probably already covered by general configurability requirements.
18:25:16 [Greg]: Kelly: All of these seem to be generally calling on the developers to be intelligent and use good UI for the new convent it adds to or overlays onto the document.
18:26:10 [Greg]: Kelly: Could add a note to address this in the Understanding document, ensure the usability requirements are adequately conveyed to UA developers.
18:27:15 [Greg]: Greg: This applies in other areas, such as Alt text displayed in place of images.
18:27:56 [Greg]: Proposal 4.X.5 Toggle dynamic updates
18:28:32 [Greg]: Kim: Also could be relegated to Understanding, but definitely should address there as some pages with many links can cause problems.
18:30:29 [Zakim]: -Jeanne
18:30:39 [jeanne]: zakim, code?
18:30:39 [Zakim]: the conference code is 82941 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), jeanne
18:31:14 [Greg]: Greg: If you're worried that UA developers may do a lazy job implementing this such that some pages because unusably slow with this feature, if you really want to avoid that happening the only way is to include it in an S.C.
18:31:19 [jeanne]: I can't get back on the call, because we are past time. :(
18:32:59 [Greg]: Kim: Firefox Mouseless Browsing found they had to add this toggle feature.
18:34:07 [jeanne2]: jeanne2 has joined #ua
18:34:26 [Greg]: Kelly: Sounds like a small thing that can be in Understanding.
18:35:56 [Greg]: Kim: To be clear, Google Docs pages are an example where pages refresh content so often that the UA slows down too much because it tries to analyze numbering of too many items too frequently.
18:38:15 [Greg]: Kim: Good usability for numbering to include all links regardless of whether currently visible, so that things don't change when you scroll and you can memorize frequently used numbers.
18:39:54 [Greg]: Jim: Gone the next three weeks.
18:40:11 [Zakim]: - +1.617.325.aacc
18:40:20 [Zakim]: -Jim_Allan
18:42:15 [Zakim]: -kford
18:42:17 [Zakim]: - +1.425.895.aabb
18:42:18 [Zakim]: WAI_UAWG()1:00PM has ended
18:42:19 [Zakim]: Attendees were kford, Jim_Allan, +1.425.895.aabb, Jeanne, +1.617.325.aacc
18:43:16 [kford]: rrsagent, make minutes
18:43:16 [RRSAgent]: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/09/24-ua-minutes.html kford
18:44:30 [kford]: regrets+Simon
18:44:47 [kford]: rrsagent, make minutes
18:44:47 [RRSAgent]: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/09/24-ua-minutes.html kford
18:45:59 [kford]: regrets+Henny
18:46:07 [kford]: rrsagent, make minutes
18:46:07 [RRSAgent]: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/09/24-ua-minutes.html kford
18:46:47 [kford]: present-Jim
18:46:55 [kford]: rrsagent, make minutes
18:46:55 [RRSAgent]: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/09/24-ua-minutes.html kford
18:47:44 [kford]: present+Jim
18:47:51 [kford]: rrsagent, make minutes
18:47:51 [RRSAgent]: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/09/24-ua-minutes.html kford
18:50:17 [kford]: zakim, please part
18:50:17 [Zakim]: Zakim has left #ua
18:50:37 [kford]: rrsagent, make minutes
18:50:37 [RRSAgent]: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/09/24-ua-minutes.html kford
18:50:53 [kford]: rrsagent, please part
18:50:53 [RRSAgent]: I see 4 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2009/09/24-ua-actions.rdf :
18:50:53 [RRSAgent]: ACTION: KFord to initiate contacts with browser vendors around CSUN presentation [1]
18:50:53 [RRSAgent]: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/09/24-ua-irc#T17-21-48
18:50:53 [RRSAgent]: ACTION: kford to initiate contacts with browser vendors around CSUN presentation [2]
18:50:53 [RRSAgent]: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/09/24-ua-irc#T17-22-11
18:50:53 [RRSAgent]: ACTION: KF to initiate contacts with browser vendors around CSUN presentation [3]
18:50:53 [RRSAgent]: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/09/24-ua-irc#T17-22-19
18:50:53 [RRSAgent]: ACTION: JS to update draft replacing 4.7 with the proposal from http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2009JulSep/0023.html [4]
18:50:53 [RRSAgent]: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2009/09/24-ua-irc#T18-20-14