See also: IRC log, previous 2008-10-30
ACTION: Jeremy to demonstrate GRDDL with XHTML/RDFa once the NS URI is set up. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action03] [CONTINUES]
ACTION: Manu talk with Jamie McCarthy about an AskSlashdot piece [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action04] [CONTINUES]
benadida: Had dinner with Steve from Digg.
... They're very interested in coordinating with other news sites to come up
with a social news vocabulary.
Manu: SIOC was published as W3C member submission.
benadida: That would be good to get social news sites to adopt SIOC.
<Ralph> SIOC Member Submission
<Ralph> SOTD for SIOC
Ralph: There's a sioc-dev that we could send comments into.
<Ralph> SIOC-dev list
Ralph: That would be a good place to start the conversation.
ACTION: Manu to create SVG Tiny draft comment and send to RDFa list for feedback before sending to SVG Tiny workgroup. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/10/09-rdfa-minutes.html#action11] [DONE]
<Ralph> [LC] Official SVG Tiny Working Draft Comments from W3C RDF in XHTML Task Force [Manu 2008-10-09]
ACTION: Manu to create two TCs to test fragment identifiers dropped during URI resolution against [base] [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/10/09-rdfa-minutes.html#action13] [CONTINUES]
ACTION: Manu to write summary for Semantic Web Use Cases for Ivan. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action09] [CONTINUES]
ACTION: Manu write the perl code for Slashdot. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action11] [CONTINUES]
ACTION: Mark create base wizard suitable for cloning [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action12] [CONTINUES]
ACTION: Mark write foaf examples for wiki [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action13] [CONTINUES]
ACTION: Michael to create 'RDFa for uF users' on RDFa Wiki [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action14] [CONTINUES]
ACTION: Ralph think about RSS+RDFa [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action15] [CONTINUES]
Manu: Ralph, your action's solution might be SIOC.
Ralph: Yes, there might be more, but SIOC might solve a decent bit of the problem.
benadida: Right now Mark has some actions to
write FOAF examples.
... Any other immediate need for documentation?
Manu: the examples with digg and drupal ...
... we might take some of the postings that have been sent to the mailing
list and copy them to the wiki
Manu: Seems that most of the interest has been in social news and CMS systems so far.
benadida: There might be some interest with
publications.
... Perhaps we can edit the wiki down.
ACTION: Ben to add public-rdfa examples to wiki and think of slightly improved top-level organization [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/11/06-rdfa-minutes.html#action11]
<Ralph> SemWeb Home Page
benadida: Could we add "RDFa News and Updates", and "RDFa Wiki" under the RDFa section.
<Ralph> what path do we want folk to follow to get to http://rdfa.info/ ?
benadida: We should also have the primer in
there somewhere.
... Adding those links should be good.
Manu: for editing utilities, I cited fuzzbot
... would be nice to have a bigger collection of utilities
<Ralph> Fuzzbot
Manu: especially a set of tools that supports a full publishing cycle
Ben: I use the bookmarklets for this. What more is needed?
Manu: if we believe folks should use the bookmarklets more to do editing, we should publicize this
ACTION: Ben to put up information on "how to write RDFa" with screencast possibly and instructions on bookmarklet. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/11/06-rdfa-minutes.html#action12]
<Ralph> Fuzzbot 0.8.3
Manu: we could make a tools request list
... especially tools that work across all platforms
<Ralph> bookmarklets?
Ben: that's out of date; it cites -> http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/RDFa/impl/js/
benadida: That's the latest.
<Ralph> old, out-of-date TF page
Ralph: We've got a number of stale pages around.
benadida: I should fix that page.
ACTION: Ben to add forward pointer to old task force page to point to new TF page. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/11/06-rdfa-minutes.html#action13]
benadida: It would be good to clean that.
... We might want to have a new test case.
... Where the empty string is null.
Manu: Do you have a test case in mind for that?
<benadida> <a href="foo.html"><span about="" property="dc:creator">Ben</span></a>
benadida: It's an issue in Javascript, or any language where the empty string could be construed as NULL.
<Ralph> [Ben is noting a coding style trap in javascript]
benadida: you would expect the previous example
to set the creator of the current page.
... It was only in the case of emtpy @about where the chaining didn't happen
correctly.
ACTION: Manu to add test case for empty @about inside a chain [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/11/06-rdfa-minutes.html#action14]
<Ralph> i.e. an empty attribute value is not the same as an absent attribute
Manu: I'm speaking at Web Directions North in January
... giving a 4-hour workshop on RDFa
<Steeeven> I spoke at the TPAC
<Steeeven> last talk of the dayy
<markbirbeck> http://www.idealliance.org/xml2008/schedule-details.asp#gov8
markbirbeck: I submitted a talk on RDFa, I'm on a panel on Semantic Web and Goverment
<Ralph> Why you should have a Web Site [Steven, W3C Technical Plenary talk 2008-10-22]
markbirbeck: It's normally called XML 2007, but
now it's XML in Practice.
... I did an RDFa talk there last year.
benadida: I've been invited to talk at the Interlab Conference at a Semantic Web Panel
<markbirbeck> I should say that last year I did a *lightning* talk on RDFa...so this is a step up. :)
benadida: it's a panel on how the semantic web
is getting real.
... Important that if you have slides you're willing to share. Under Creative
Commons for example.
... If you're looking for the longer presentations, they're on my website.
<markbirbeck> http://www.online-information.co.uk/online08/conference_presentation_2008.html?presentation_id=357
markbirbeck: I've been asked to chair a
session.
... I've been asked to chair a panel - it's good for RDFa because they think
it'll be a major part of the discussion.
<Ralph> RDFa - Bridging the Web of Documents and the Web of Data [ISWC tutorial by Michael, Ivan, Ben]
benadida: I was speaking primarily to the @prefix attribute.
<benadida> --> http://rdfa.info/wiki/RDFainHTML4
benadida: Specifically, what Shane has written on the Wiki.
<msporny> Manu: prefix="ns=http://blah.com/"
Manu: we've talked about several
possibilities
... a space-separated list of items
<msporny> Manu: prefix="=http://example.org/vocab"
Manu: a default namespace
<msporny> Manu: prefix="http://example.org/vocab"
Manu: the case of eliding the '='
<msporny> Manu: prefix="ex=http://example.org/vocab"
Manu: last conversation with Shane the idea was
to have @prefix support all of these cases
... @prefix="a=b" matches the current xmlns case
<msporny> Manu: prefix="http://myvocab.org/vocab"
Manu: question of how to denote things we want
the parser to fetch
... objective is to have the parser load vocabulary-specific triples [from a
URI]
... similar to @profile
... we were unsure whether GRDDL would be OK with reusing @profile
elsewhere
Ben: GRDDL doesn't own @profile
... the 3 cases Manu cites are noted in http://rdfa.info/wiki/RDFainHTML4
<benadida> third case prefix="=http://creativecommons.org/ns#"
Ben: I'm not wild about that last syntax
... ="= just looks like mal-formed syntax to me
Mark: and using this functionality for loading
special vocabularies feels wrong to me
... I don't think we should overload @prefix; @profile is for this purpose
... I'm also not wild about the default namespace syntax
... but I'm not sure we need a default namespace
... I've been working on the token idea and the more I do the more it has
evolved
... the idea of having a vocabulary with a list of terms is not suited to all
situations; sometimes you just want a list of tokens
... I'm no longer convinced we should encourage unprefixed CURIEs
Ben: so 'foo' and 'bar' might map to terms from different vocabularies, with completely different URIs?
Mark: yes
... this use of [unprefixed] tokens is the big innovation in microformats
... I think we should embrace this and provide the underpinning that makes it
possible
... N3 allows a "predicate" of 'a' which maps to rdf:type
Ralph: but N3 did not do this in an extensible way; 'a' is a hard-wired keyword
Mark: yes, but we can fit that into a new
mindset
... we could say that 'a' is a CURIE and we provide a mapping to its URI
... and we can also allow 'license' to map to a different URI
... where 'a' and 'license' co-exist nicely
... if we keep @prefix simple we'll avoid lots of arguments
Ben: I believe we agree that @prefix plays the same role as @xmlns
Ralph: I spoke with Shane a while ago and it's
possible that @prefix does not directly map to xmlns.
... Shane thought that there might be some issues with that.
benadida: The only thing where it might be an
issue is declaring something in HEAD
... We want to make markup simpler - so when we compare Microformats to RDFa,
people don't see that RDFa is very complicated.
... There are several ways you can do that - reserved words, token-based
approach.
... I think we're going to have to pick one.
... if we pick more than one, it might make things more difficult.
<Ralph> [I very much like the idea that the documents that define lists of tokens use RDFa to define those lists]
markbirbeck: I don't think they're mutually exclusive.
benadida: We need to continue this discussion.
<Steeeven> +1 to ralph
benadida: We should focus on documentation and simplified RDFa using @prefix/@profile.
Ben: we should prototype in our implementations before proposing any formal change
Mark: my solution only requires RDFa to add
@profile and most of the work is pushed into the CURIE spec
... the token language in the RDFa spec intentionally leaves room for
this
Ben: I wouldn't want to ask RDFa parsers to
have to look to CURIE spec for lots of new rules
... but I like the look of Mark's syntax
... I especially like not having to load everything into @prefix
next meeting: 20 November