W3C

RDF in XHTML Task Force

06 Nov 2008

Agenda

See also: IRC log, previous 2008-10-30

Attendees

Present
Manu Sporny, Ralph Swick, Ben Adida, Mark Birbeck
Regrets
Steven Pemberton (irc only)
Chair
Ben Adida
Scribe
Manu Sporny

Contents


Action Item Review

ACTION: Jeremy to demonstrate GRDDL with XHTML/RDFa once the NS URI is set up. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action03] [CONTINUES]

ACTION: Manu talk with Jamie McCarthy about an AskSlashdot piece [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action04] [CONTINUES]

benadida: Had dinner with Steve from Digg.
... They're very interested in coordinating with other news sites to come up with a social news vocabulary.

Manu: SIOC was published as W3C member submission.

benadida: That would be good to get social news sites to adopt SIOC.

<Ralph> SIOC Member Submission

<Ralph> SOTD for SIOC

Ralph: There's a sioc-dev that we could send comments into.

<Ralph> SIOC-dev list

Ralph: That would be a good place to start the conversation.

ACTION: Manu to create SVG Tiny draft comment and send to RDFa list for feedback before sending to SVG Tiny workgroup. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/10/09-rdfa-minutes.html#action11] [DONE]

<Ralph> [LC] Official SVG Tiny Working Draft Comments from W3C RDF in XHTML Task Force [Manu 2008-10-09]

ACTION: Manu to create two TCs to test fragment identifiers dropped during URI resolution against [base] [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/10/09-rdfa-minutes.html#action13] [CONTINUES]

ACTION: Manu to write summary for Semantic Web Use Cases for Ivan. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action09] [CONTINUES]

ACTION: Manu write the perl code for Slashdot. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action11] [CONTINUES]

ACTION: Mark create base wizard suitable for cloning [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action12] [CONTINUES]

ACTION: Mark write foaf examples for wiki [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action13] [CONTINUES]

ACTION: Michael to create 'RDFa for uF users' on RDFa Wiki [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action14] [CONTINUES]

ACTION: Ralph think about RSS+RDFa [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action15] [CONTINUES]

Manu: Ralph, your action's solution might be SIOC.

Ralph: Yes, there might be more, but SIOC might solve a decent bit of the problem.

Ongoing maintenance of wiki/documentation

benadida: Right now Mark has some actions to write FOAF examples.
... Any other immediate need for documentation?

Manu: the examples with digg and drupal ...
... we might take some of the postings that have been sent to the mailing list and copy them to the wiki

Manu: Seems that most of the interest has been in social news and CMS systems so far.

benadida: There might be some interest with publications.
... Perhaps we can edit the wiki down.

ACTION: Ben to add public-rdfa examples to wiki and think of slightly improved top-level organization [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/11/06-rdfa-minutes.html#action11]

<Ralph> SemWeb Home Page

benadida: Could we add "RDFa News and Updates", and "RDFa Wiki" under the RDFa section.

<Ralph> what path do we want folk to follow to get to http://rdfa.info/ ?

benadida: We should also have the primer in there somewhere.
... Adding those links should be good.

Manu: for editing utilities, I cited fuzzbot
... would be nice to have a bigger collection of utilities

<Ralph> Fuzzbot

Manu: especially a set of tools that supports a full publishing cycle

Ben: I use the bookmarklets for this. What more is needed?

Manu: if we believe folks should use the bookmarklets more to do editing, we should publicize this

ACTION: Ben to put up information on "how to write RDFa" with screencast possibly and instructions on bookmarklet. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/11/06-rdfa-minutes.html#action12]

<Ralph> Fuzzbot 0.8.3

Manu: we could make a tools request list
... especially tools that work across all platforms

<Ralph> bookmarklets?

Ben: that's out of date; it cites -> http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/RDFa/impl/js/

benadida: That's the latest.

<Ralph> old, out-of-date TF page

Ralph: We've got a number of stale pages around.

benadida: I should fix that page.

ACTION: Ben to add forward pointer to old task force page to point to new TF page. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/11/06-rdfa-minutes.html#action13]

benadida: It would be good to clean that.
... We might want to have a new test case.
... Where the empty string is null.

Manu: Do you have a test case in mind for that?

<benadida> <a href="foo.html"><span about="" property="dc:creator">Ben</span></a>

benadida: It's an issue in Javascript, or any language where the empty string could be construed as NULL.

<Ralph> [Ben is noting a coding style trap in javascript]

benadida: you would expect the previous example to set the creator of the current page.
... It was only in the case of emtpy @about where the chaining didn't happen correctly.

ACTION: Manu to add test case for empty @about inside a chain [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/11/06-rdfa-minutes.html#action14]

<Ralph> i.e. an empty attribute value is not the same as an absent attribute

Recent and Upcoming Talks

Manu: I'm speaking at Web Directions North in January
... giving a 4-hour workshop on RDFa

<Steeeven> I spoke at the TPAC

<Steeeven> last talk of the dayy

<markbirbeck> http://www.idealliance.org/xml2008/schedule-details.asp#gov8

markbirbeck: I submitted a talk on RDFa, I'm on a panel on Semantic Web and Goverment

<Ralph> Why you should have a Web Site [Steven, W3C Technical Plenary talk 2008-10-22]

markbirbeck: It's normally called XML 2007, but now it's XML in Practice.
... I did an RDFa talk there last year.

benadida: I've been invited to talk at the Interlab Conference at a Semantic Web Panel

<markbirbeck> I should say that last year I did a *lightning* talk on RDFa...so this is a step up. :)

benadida: it's a panel on how the semantic web is getting real.
... Important that if you have slides you're willing to share. Under Creative Commons for example.
... If you're looking for the longer presentations, they're on my website.

<markbirbeck> http://www.online-information.co.uk/online08/conference_presentation_2008.html?presentation_id=357

markbirbeck: I've been asked to chair a session.
... I've been asked to chair a panel - it's good for RDFa because they think it'll be a major part of the discussion.

<Ralph> RDFa - Bridging the Web of Documents and the Web of Data [ISWC tutorial by Michael, Ivan, Ben]

Potential Improvements to RDFa

benadida: I was speaking primarily to the @prefix attribute.

<benadida> --> http://rdfa.info/wiki/RDFainHTML4

benadida: Specifically, what Shane has written on the Wiki.

<msporny> Manu: prefix="ns=http://blah.com/"

Manu: we've talked about several possibilities
... a space-separated list of items

<msporny> Manu: prefix="=http://example.org/vocab"

Manu: a default namespace

<msporny> Manu: prefix="http://example.org/vocab"

Manu: the case of eliding the '='

<msporny> Manu: prefix="ex=http://example.org/vocab"

Manu: last conversation with Shane the idea was to have @prefix support all of these cases
... @prefix="a=b" matches the current xmlns case

<msporny> Manu: prefix="http://myvocab.org/vocab"

Manu: question of how to denote things we want the parser to fetch
... objective is to have the parser load vocabulary-specific triples [from a URI]
... similar to @profile
... we were unsure whether GRDDL would be OK with reusing @profile elsewhere

Ben: GRDDL doesn't own @profile
... the 3 cases Manu cites are noted in http://rdfa.info/wiki/RDFainHTML4

<benadida> third case prefix="=http://creativecommons.org/ns#"

Ben: I'm not wild about that last syntax
... ="= just looks like mal-formed syntax to me

Mark: and using this functionality for loading special vocabularies feels wrong to me
... I don't think we should overload @prefix; @profile is for this purpose
... I'm also not wild about the default namespace syntax
... but I'm not sure we need a default namespace
... I've been working on the token idea and the more I do the more it has evolved
... the idea of having a vocabulary with a list of terms is not suited to all situations; sometimes you just want a list of tokens
... I'm no longer convinced we should encourage unprefixed CURIEs

Ben: so 'foo' and 'bar' might map to terms from different vocabularies, with completely different URIs?

Mark: yes
... this use of [unprefixed] tokens is the big innovation in microformats
... I think we should embrace this and provide the underpinning that makes it possible
... N3 allows a "predicate" of 'a' which maps to rdf:type

Ralph: but N3 did not do this in an extensible way; 'a' is a hard-wired keyword

Mark: yes, but we can fit that into a new mindset
... we could say that 'a' is a CURIE and we provide a mapping to its URI
... and we can also allow 'license' to map to a different URI
... where 'a' and 'license' co-exist nicely
... if we keep @prefix simple we'll avoid lots of arguments

Ben: I believe we agree that @prefix plays the same role as @xmlns

Ralph: I spoke with Shane a while ago and it's possible that @prefix does not directly map to xmlns.
... Shane thought that there might be some issues with that.

benadida: The only thing where it might be an issue is declaring something in HEAD
... We want to make markup simpler - so when we compare Microformats to RDFa, people don't see that RDFa is very complicated.
... There are several ways you can do that - reserved words, token-based approach.
... I think we're going to have to pick one.
... if we pick more than one, it might make things more difficult.

<Ralph> [I very much like the idea that the documents that define lists of tokens use RDFa to define those lists]

markbirbeck: I don't think they're mutually exclusive.

benadida: We need to continue this discussion.

<Steeeven> +1 to ralph

benadida: We should focus on documentation and simplified RDFa using @prefix/@profile.

Ben: we should prototype in our implementations before proposing any formal change

Mark: my solution only requires RDFa to add @profile and most of the work is pushed into the CURIE spec
... the token language in the RDFa spec intentionally leaves room for this

Ben: I wouldn't want to ask RDFa parsers to have to look to CURIE spec for lots of new rules
... but I like the look of Mark's syntax
... I especially like not having to load everything into @prefix

next meeting: 20 November

Summary of Action Items

[NEW] ACTION: Ben to add forward pointer to old task force page to point to new TF page. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/11/06-rdfa-minutes.html#action13]
[NEW] ACTION: Ben to add public-rdfa examples to wiki and think of slightly improved top-level organization [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/11/06-rdfa-minutes.html#action11]
[NEW] ACTION: Ben to put up information on "how to write RDFa" with screencast possibly and instructions on bookmarklet. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/11/06-rdfa-minutes.html#action12]
[NEW] ACTION: Manu to add test case for empty @about inside a chain [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/11/06-rdfa-minutes.html#action14]
 
[PENDING] ACTION: Jeremy to demonstrate GRDDL with XHTML/RDFa once the NS URI is set up. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action03]
[PENDING] ACTION: Manu talk with Jamie McCarthy about an AskSlashdot piece [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action04]
[PENDING] ACTION: Manu to create two TCs to test fragment identifiers dropped during URI resolution against [base] [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/10/09-rdfa-minutes.html#action13]
[PENDING] ACTION: Manu to write summary for Semantic Web Use Cases for Ivan. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action09]
[PENDING] ACTION: Manu write the perl code for Slashdot. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action11]
[PENDING] ACTION: Mark create base wizard suitable for cloning [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action12]
[PENDING] ACTION: Mark write foaf examples for wiki [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action13]
[PENDING] ACTION: Michael to create 'RDFa for uF users' on RDFa Wiki [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action14]
[PENDING] ACTION: Ralph think about RSS+RDFa [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action15]
 
[DONE] ACTION: Manu to create SVG Tiny draft comment and send to RDFa list for feedback before sending to SVG Tiny workgroup. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/10/09-rdfa-minutes.html#action11]
 
[End of minutes]

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$Date: 2008/11/07 03:20:07 $