See also: IRC log
<ShaneM> There is substantial danger I will have to leave around :45
-> http://www.w3.org/2007/04/11-xhtml-minutes Previous
xhtml Mark
<scribe> Scribe: Steven
Alessio: I am based in Rome, and travel between
Italy and Switzerland on projects.
... I represent IWA here
... It is good to be here, to know XHTML2
... I have projects using SMIL
... I am interested in ontologies, and semantics
Steven: Welcome!
<ShaneM> I nominate Steven as acting Chair
<ShaneM> markbirbeck: second
<scribe> ACTION: [NEW] Mark to write up stuff about role as predicate. [recorded in [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/04/18-xhtml-minutes.html#action01]
http://www.w3.org/2007/04/04-html-minutes.html#action06]
<scribe> -- continues
<scribe> ACTION: [NEW] Shane to include the role module into the example xhtml+rdfa [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/04/18-xhtml-minutes.html#action02]
driver [recorded in
http://www.w3.org/2007/04/04-html-minutes.html#action07]
<scribe> -- done
<scribe> ACTION: [NEW] Steven to propose a rephrasing of the about atribute [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/04/18-xhtml-minutes.html#action03]
inheritance rules. [recorded in
http://www.w3.org/2007/04/04-html-minutes.html#action05]
<scribe> - continues
<scribe> ACTION: [NEW] Steven and Shane to deal with Schema WG M12N Comments [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/04/18-xhtml-minutes.html#action04]
[recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/03/28-html-minutes.html#action03]
<scribe> -- continues
http://www.w3.org/2007/04/11-xhtml-minutes#item05
Alessio: We have this sort of problem with IE
as well
... and we are moving to Firefox
... we need an interim solution
Steven: The issue for us at the moment is about
this page:
... http://www.w3.org/Markup/Drafts
<alessio> we could try to support correct visualization via scripting
<ShaneM> something like that.
http://www.w3.org/Markup/Drafts
Alessio: We need a practical solution
... I want to promote these standards
<ShaneM> we *could* set header negotiation so the page is sent as text/html
Steven: I think we can get IE to sniff; just need to find out how
<alessio> yes
Mark: The browser doesn't say it can accept app/xhtml+xml
Shane: Yes it does, it uses */* at the end
My problem is that I have a plugin that accepts app/xhtml+xml
So it's hard for me to test
Mark: We can send it as two docs and content
negotiate
... we can challenge the statement that XHTML cannot be served as
text/html
Alessio: I agree; on IE we are just sending a representation
Steven: You think it is OK to send as text/html
Alessio: Yes, but only to IE
Mark: Leave off the xml-stylesheet at the top
Shane: It is not a simple problem
... I have spent days on this
... We could do a .htaccess on this, but I don't think we can tell the world
to do it
<alessio> Unfortunately we know that browser doesn't support application/xhtml, so it could be a further "message" to IE developers and, why not, for UUAG
<scribe> ACTION: Shane to do a .htaccess on Drafts page and see if that helps [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/04/18-xhtml-minutes.html#action05]
Shane: The RDFa is still not right on that page either
Steven: We can work on that
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-html-wg/2007AprJun/0002
Shane: There are people who feel strongly that XHTML must not be served as text/html
<ShaneM> FYI: Melinda feels that text/html is legitimate in some contexts.
Steven: Two positions 1) Purist, which is
valid, because it does charencoding right for instance
... 2) Pragmatic, since the main UA doesn't accept the needed media type, but
can render properly, then just use text/html as a request for UA
<alessio> for example, some js command to embedded multimedia objects don't work application/xhtml+xml
Mark: Yes, you could see the media type as a switch between apps; let the app decide when it sees the document
<alessio> yes, I agree
Mark: look what happens when IE sees text/plain for instance
Shane: There is the issue of the difference between HTML and XHTML CSS rules
Mark: I suspect that the areas for ambiguity
between UAs is less with XHTML than HTML
... since (assuming it is good XHTML) it is well formed at least
... most articles I read on this get down to the issue that authors get
confused
... this is a non-argument
Steven: I think we cannot agree to this request
Shane: The mobile community want to use other media types too
Steven: We say SHOULD because we want it to be like that, but the current state of UAs is so poor that authors have to be given other possibilities
<ShaneM> and that's a good reason too.
Mark: We should adopt the position that the document is different from the rendering of the document
Shane: I agree, we don't require an XML parser,
just something that behaves like it
... HTML 4 says that it is SGML, but there are no UAs that do that
... so text/html has different parsing rules, but they aren't supported
either
Mark: Why do we care about the parsing?
Shane: Failure mode
Mark: Why do we care about that?
Shane: We don't, but the HTML community wants tag soup to be valid
Mark: We should just say, if you are not well-formed, it is undefined what a UA does
Steven: We do say that
Mark: We shouldn't say that it aborts, just
that it is undefined
... the current behaviour of Firefox is to abort
... why bother?
<ShaneM> Mark Proposal: define that user agent behavior is undefined in the presence of invalid / non-well formed content
Steven: Because XML says it should
Alessio: This would be a great help to the developer
<ShaneM> we currently say this (in XHTML 2): #
<ShaneM> The user agent must parse and evaluate an XHTML 2 document for well-formedness. If the user agent claims to be a validating user agent, it must also validate documents against a referenced schema according to [XML].
<alessio> browser itself validates...
Steven: This discussion just supports our
discussion in Venice
... we leave space for people to do a best-effort at delivering the stuff to
the end user, which after all, is what it is all about
<ShaneM> Documents COnformance: A conforming XHTML family document is a valid instance of an XHTML Host Language Conforming Document Type.
Shane: Actually, our conformance still seems to
match what we want
... We just need to make explicit that behaviour is undefined for invalid
docs
<ShaneM> For the avoidance of doubt,. the behavior of user agents in the presence of invalid documents is undefined.
Shane: Validity is determined by the doctype
... which includes the ability to handle />
<ShaneM> ACTION: Shane to add clarification to section 3.4 of M12N 1.1 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/04/18-xhtml-minutes.html#action06]
RESOLUTION: With the current state of UAs, we cannot make this a MUST
ADJOURNED
rrsagen, make minutes
This is scribe.perl Revision: 1.128 of Date: 2007/02/23 21:38:13 Check for newer version at http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/ Guessing input format: RRSAgent_Text_Format (score 1.00) Succeeded: s/]// Succeeded: s/m/n/ Succeeded: s/ww/w/ Succeeded: s/TH/Th/ Succeeded: s/apr/par/ Succeeded: s/SH/Sh/ Succeeded: s/that/that?/ Succeeded: s/bother/bother?/ Succeeded: s/In/With/ Found Scribe: Steven Inferring ScribeNick: Steven Default Present: ShaneM, Steven, +44.207.689.aaaa, markbirbeck, Alessio Present: ShaneM Steven +44.207.689.aaaa markbirbeck Alessio Regrets: Rich Yam Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xhtml2/2007Apr/0013 Got date from IRC log name: 18 Apr 2007 Guessing minutes URL: http://www.w3.org/2007/04/18-xhtml-minutes.html People with action items: mark shane steven[End of scribe.perl diagnostic output]