14:00:57 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #xhtml
14:00:57 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2007/04/18-xhtml-irc
14:01:04 <Steven> rrsagent, make log public
14:01:08 <Steven> zakim, who is here?
14:01:08 <Zakim> On the phone I see ShaneM
14:01:10 <Zakim> On IRC I see RRSAgent, Zakim, Steven, alessio, gavin_, ShaneM, markbirbeck, krijnh
14:01:15 <Steven> zakim, dial steven-617
14:01:17 <Zakim> ok, Steven; the call is being made
14:01:19 <Zakim> +Steven
14:01:39 <Steven> Meeting: Weekly XHTML2 WG Teleconference
14:01:44 <Steven> Chair: Steven
14:01:58 <ShaneM>  There is substantial danger I will have to leave around :45
14:02:18 <Steven> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xhtml2/2007Apr/0013
14:02:30 <Steven> Steven has changed the topic to: Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xhtml2/2007Apr/0013
14:03:04 <Steven> Regrets: Rich, Yam
14:03:29 <Steven> -> http://www.w3.org/2007/04/11-xhtml-minutes Previous
14:04:48 <markbirbeck> zakim, code?
14:04:48 <Zakim> the conference code is 94865 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), markbirbeck
14:04:57 <Steven> xhtml Mark
14:04:59 <Zakim> + +44.207.689.aaaa
14:05:10 <markbirbeck> zakim, i am aaaa
14:05:10 <Zakim> +markbirbeck; got it
14:06:19 <Zakim> +??P28
14:06:46 <Steven> zakim, ??P28 is Alessio
14:06:46 <Zakim> +Alessio; got it
14:10:16 <Steven> Scribe: Steven
14:10:18 <Steven> Alessio: I am based in Rome, and travel between Italy and Switzerland on projects.
14:10:24 <Steven> ... I represent IWA here
14:10:40 <Steven> ... It is good to be here, to know XHTML2
14:10:47 <Steven> ... I have projects using SMIL
14:11:03 <Steven> ... I am interested in ontologies, and semantics
14:11:09 <Steven> Steven: Welcome!
14:11:26 <ShaneM>  I nominate Steven as acting Chair
14:11:50 <ShaneM>  markbirbeck: second
14:14:11 <Steven> Topic: Actions
14:14:32 <Steven> [NEW] ACTION: Mark to write up stuff about role as predicate. [recorded in   
14:14:32 <Steven> http://www.w3.org/2007/04/04-html-minutes.html#action06]
14:14:37 <Steven> -- continues
14:14:57 <Steven> [NEW] ACTION: Shane to include the role module into the example xhtml+rdfa   
14:14:57 <Steven> driver [recorded in  
14:14:57 <Steven> http://www.w3.org/2007/04/04-html-minutes.html#action07]
14:15:02 <Steven> -- done]
14:15:09 <Steven> s/]//
14:16:38 <Steven> [NEW] ACTION: Steven to propose a rephrasing of the about atribute   
14:16:38 <Steven> inheritance rules. [recorded in   
14:16:38 <Steven> http://www.w3.org/2007/04/04-html-minutes.html#action05]
14:16:41 <Steven> - comtinues
14:16:47 <Steven> s/m/n/
14:16:57 <Steven> [NEW] ACTION: Steven and Shane to deal with Schema WG M12N Comments   
14:16:57 <Steven> [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/03/28-html-minutes.html#action03]
14:17:02 <Steven> -- continues
14:17:48 <Steven> Topic: Media type issue
14:17:48 <Steven> http://www.w3.org/2007/04/11-xhtml-minutes#item05
14:19:03 <Steven> Alessio: We have this sort of problem with IE as well
14:19:11 <Steven> ... and we are moving to Firefox
14:19:20 <Steven> ... we need an interim solution
14:19:36 <Steven> Steven: The issue for us at the moment is about this page:
14:19:54 <Steven> .... http://wwww.w3.org/Markup/Drafts
14:19:59 <alessio> we could try to support correct visualization via scripting
14:20:02 <ShaneM>  something like that.
14:20:06 <Steven> s/ww/w/
14:20:12 <Steven> http://www.w3.org/Markup/Drafts
14:21:14 <Steven> Alessio: We need a practical solution
14:21:21 <Steven> ... I want to promote these standards
14:22:18 <ShaneM>  we *could* set header negotiation so the page is sent as text/html
14:22:51 <Steven> Steven: I think we can get IE to sniff; just need to find out how
14:22:58 <alessio> yes
14:23:11 <Steven> Mark: THe browser doesn't say it can accept app/xhtml+xml
14:23:23 <Steven> Shane: Yes it does, it uses */* at the end
14:23:29 <Steven> s/TH/Th/
14:24:19 <Steven> My problem is that I have a plugin that accepts app/xhtml+xml
14:24:31 <Steven> So it's hard for me to test
14:24:57 <Steven> Mark: We can send it as two docs and content negotiate
14:25:12 <Steven> ... we can challenge the statement that XHTML cannot be served as text/html
14:26:08 <Steven> Alessio: I agree; on IE we are just sending a representation
14:26:40 <Steven> Steven: You think it is OK to send as text/html
14:26:47 <Steven> Alessio: Yes, but only to IE
14:27:20 <Steven> Steven has left #xhtml
14:27:33 <Steven> Steven has joined #xhtml
14:27:45 <Steven> Mark: Leave off the xml-stylesheet at the top
14:27:54 <Steven> Shane: It is not a simple problem
14:28:02 <Steven> ... I have spent days on this
14:28:23 <Steven> ... We could do a .htaccess on this, but I don't think we can tell the world to do it
14:28:29 <alessio> Unfortunately we know that browser doesn't support application/xhtml, so it could be a further "message" to IE developers and, why not, for UUAG
14:29:14 <Steven> ACTION: Shane to do a .htaccess on Drafts page and see if that helps
14:29:37 <Steven> Shane: The RDFa is still not right on that page either
14:29:41 <Steven> Steven: We can work on that
14:29:56 <Steven> Topic: [XHTML1.1] Error in Conformance Definition document? 
14:29:56 <Steven> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-html-wg/2007AprJun/0002
14:31:28 <Steven> Shane: There are people who feel strongly that XHTML must not be served as text/html
14:32:00 <ShaneM>  FYI: Melinda feels that text/html is legitimate in some contexts.
14:32:56 <Steven> Steven: Two positions 1) Purist, which is valid, because it does charencoding right for instance
14:33:41 <Steven> ... 2) Pragmatic, since the main UA doesn't accept the needed media type, but can render properly, then just use text/html as a request for UA
14:33:43 <alessio> for example, some js command to embedded multimedia objects don't work application/xhtml+xml
14:34:12 <Steven> Mark: Yes, you could see the media type as a switch between apps; let the app decide when it sees the document
14:34:22 <alessio> yes, I agree
14:34:31 <Steven> ... look what happens when IE sees text/plain for instance
14:35:03 <Steven> Shane: There is the issue of the difference between HTML and XHTML CSS rules
14:36:39 <Steven> Mark: I suspect that the areas for ambiguity between UAs is less with XHTML than HTML
14:37:04 <Steven> ... since (assuming it is good XHTML) it is well formed at least
14:37:27 <Steven> ... most articles I read on this get down to the issue that authors get confused
14:37:31 <Steven> ... this is a non-argument
14:39:23 <Steven> Steven: I think we cannot agree to this request
14:39:34 <Steven> Shane: The mobile community want to use other media types too
14:40:09 <Steven> Steven: We say SHOULD because we want it to be like that, but the current state of UAs is so poor that authors have to be given other possibilities
14:40:26 <ShaneM>  and that's a good reason too.  
14:42:20 <Steven> Mark: We should adopt the position that the document is different from the rendering of the document
14:43:28 <Steven> Shane: I agree, we don't require an XML parser, just something that behaves like it
14:43:52 <Steven> ... HTML 4 says that it is SGML, but there are no UAs that do that
14:44:17 <Steven> ... so text/html has different parsing rules, but they aren't supported either
14:44:34 <Steven> Mark: Why do we care about the aprsing?
14:44:42 <Steven> s/apr/par/
14:44:49 <Steven> SHane: Failure mode
14:44:52 <Steven> s/SH/Sh/
14:45:01 <Steven> Mark: Why do we care about that
14:45:27 <Steven> Shane: We don't, but the HTML community wants tag soup to be valid
14:45:38 <Steven> s/that/that?/
14:46:27 <Steven> Mark: We should just say, if you are not well-formed, it is undefined what a UA does
14:46:32 <Steven> Steven: We do say that
14:46:55 <Steven> Mark: We shouldn't say that it aborts, just that it is undefined
14:47:27 <Steven> ... the current behaviour of Firefox is to abort
14:47:33 <Steven> ... why bother
14:47:33 <ShaneM>  Mark Proposal: define that user agent behavior is undefined in the presence of invalid / non-well formed content
14:47:46 <Steven> Steven: Because XML says it should
14:48:07 <Steven> s/bother/bother?/
14:49:24 <Steven> Alessio: This would be a great help to the developer
14:49:46 <ShaneM>  we currently say this (in XHTML 2): # 
14:49:46 <ShaneM>  
14:49:46 <ShaneM> The user agent must parse and evaluate an XHTML 2 document for well-formedness. If the user agent claims to be a validating user agent, it must also validate documents against a referenced schema according to [XML]. 
14:50:09 <alessio> browser itself validates...
14:51:21 <Steven> Steven: This discussion just supports our discussion in Venice
14:51:59 <Steven> ... we leave space for people to do a best-effort at delivering the stuff to the end user, which after all, is what it is all about
14:52:36 <ShaneM>  Documents COnformance: A conforming XHTML family document is a valid instance of an XHTML Host Language Conforming Document Type.
14:52:43 <Steven> Shane: Actually, our conformance still seems to match what we want
14:53:41 <Steven> Shane: We just need to make explicit that behaviour is undefined for invalid docs
14:55:03 <ShaneM>  For the avoidance of doubt,. the behavior of user agents in the presence of invalid documents is undefined.
14:55:36 <Steven> Shane: Validity is determined by the doctype
14:55:53 <Steven> ... which includes the ability to handle />
14:57:30 <ShaneM>  ACTION: Shane to add clarification to section 3.4 of M12N 1.1
14:57:37 <Zakim> -ShaneM
14:57:47 <Steven> RESOLUTION: In the current state of UAs, we cannot make this a MUST
14:57:55 <Steven> s/In/With/
14:58:17 <Zakim> -Steven
14:58:19 <Zakim> -markbirbeck
14:58:20 <Steven> ADJOURNED
14:58:21 <Zakim> -Alessio
14:58:26 <Zakim> IA_XHTML2()10:00AM has ended
14:58:30 <Zakim> Attendees were ShaneM, Steven, +44.207.689.aaaa, markbirbeck, Alessio
14:58:37 <Steven> rrsagen, make minutes
14:58:42 <Steven> rrsagent, make minutes
14:58:42 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/04/18-xhtml-minutes.html Steven
15:00:40 <alessio> I have some rust on my spoken english, be patient :)
15:01:33 <alessio> bye all
15:01:37 <alessio> alessio has left #xhtml
16:02:02 <gavin_> gavin_ has joined #xhtml
16:32:51 <Zakim> Zakim has left #xhtml
18:28:18 <ShaneM> ShaneM has left #xhtml
18:52:13 <gavin_> gavin_ has joined #xhtml
20:59:44 <gavin_> gavin_ has joined #xhtml
21:46:19 <markbirbeck> markbirbeck has joined #xhtml
23:07:09 <gavin_> gavin_ has joined #xhtml
23:56:32 <ShaneM> ShaneM has joined #xhtml