IRC log of xhtml on 2007-04-18

Timestamps are in UTC.

14:00:57 [RRSAgent]

RRSAgent has joined #xhtml

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logging to http://www.w3.org/2007/04/18-xhtml-irc

14:01:04 [Steven]

rrsagent, make log public

14:01:08 [Steven]

zakim, who is here?

14:01:08 [Zakim]

On the phone I see ShaneM

14:01:10 [Zakim]

On IRC I see RRSAgent, Zakim, Steven, alessio, gavin_, ShaneM, markbirbeck, krijnh

14:01:15 [Steven]

zakim, dial steven-617

14:01:17 [Zakim]

ok, Steven; the call is being made

14:01:19 [Zakim]

+Steven

14:01:39 [Steven]

Meeting: Weekly XHTML2 WG Teleconference

14:01:44 [Steven]

Chair: Steven

14:01:58 [ShaneM]

There is substantial danger I will have to leave around :45

14:02:18 [Steven]

Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xhtml2/2007Apr/0013

14:02:30 [Steven]

Steven has changed the topic to: Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xhtml2/2007Apr/0013

14:03:04 [Steven]

Regrets: Rich, Yam

14:03:29 [Steven]

-> http://www.w3.org/2007/04/11-xhtml-minutes Previous

14:04:48 [markbirbeck]

zakim, code?

14:04:48 [Zakim]

the conference code is 94865 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), markbirbeck

14:04:57 [Steven]

xhtml Mark

14:04:59 [Zakim]

+ +44.207.689.aaaa

14:05:10 [markbirbeck]

zakim, i am aaaa

14:05:10 [Zakim]

+markbirbeck; got it

14:06:19 [Zakim]

+??P28

14:06:46 [Steven]

zakim, ??P28 is Alessio

14:06:46 [Zakim]

+Alessio; got it

14:10:16 [Steven]

Scribe: Steven

14:10:18 [Steven]

Alessio: I am based in Rome, and travel between Italy and Switzerland on projects.

14:10:24 [Steven]

... I represent IWA here

14:10:40 [Steven]

... It is good to be here, to know XHTML2

14:10:47 [Steven]

... I have projects using SMIL

14:11:03 [Steven]

... I am interested in ontologies, and semantics

14:11:09 [Steven]

Steven: Welcome!

14:11:26 [ShaneM]

I nominate Steven as acting Chair

14:11:50 [ShaneM]

markbirbeck: second

14:14:11 [Steven]

Topic: Actions

14:14:32 [Steven]

[NEW] ACTION: Mark to write up stuff about role as predicate. [recorded in

14:14:32 [Steven]

http://www.w3.org/2007/04/04-html-minutes.html#action06]

14:14:37 [Steven]

-- continues

14:14:57 [Steven]

[NEW] ACTION: Shane to include the role module into the example xhtml+rdfa

14:14:57 [Steven]

driver [recorded in

14:14:57 [Steven]

http://www.w3.org/2007/04/04-html-minutes.html#action07]

14:15:02 [Steven]

-- done]

14:15:09 [Steven]

s/]//

14:16:38 [Steven]

[NEW] ACTION: Steven to propose a rephrasing of the about atribute

14:16:38 [Steven]

inheritance rules. [recorded in

14:16:38 [Steven]

http://www.w3.org/2007/04/04-html-minutes.html#action05]

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- comtinues

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s/m/n/

14:16:57 [Steven]

[NEW] ACTION: Steven and Shane to deal with Schema WG M12N Comments

14:16:57 [Steven]

[recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/03/28-html-minutes.html#action03]

14:17:02 [Steven]

-- continues

14:17:48 [Steven]

Topic: Media type issue

14:17:48 [Steven]

http://www.w3.org/2007/04/11-xhtml-minutes#item05

14:19:03 [Steven]

Alessio: We have this sort of problem with IE as well

14:19:11 [Steven]

... and we are moving to Firefox

14:19:20 [Steven]

... we need an interim solution

14:19:36 [Steven]

Steven: The issue for us at the moment is about this page:

14:19:54 [Steven]

.... http://wwww.w3.org/Markup/Drafts

14:19:59 [alessio]

we could try to support correct visualization via scripting

14:20:02 [ShaneM]

something like that.

14:20:06 [Steven]

s/ww/w/

14:20:12 [Steven]

http://www.w3.org/Markup/Drafts

14:21:14 [Steven]

Alessio: We need a practical solution

14:21:21 [Steven]

... I want to promote these standards

14:22:18 [ShaneM]

we *could* set header negotiation so the page is sent as text/html

14:22:51 [Steven]

Steven: I think we can get IE to sniff; just need to find out how

14:22:58 [alessio]

yes

14:23:11 [Steven]

Mark: THe browser doesn't say it can accept app/xhtml+xml

14:23:23 [Steven]

Shane: Yes it does, it uses */* at the end

14:23:29 [Steven]

s/TH/Th/

14:24:19 [Steven]

My problem is that I have a plugin that accepts app/xhtml+xml

14:24:31 [Steven]

So it's hard for me to test

14:24:57 [Steven]

Mark: We can send it as two docs and content negotiate

14:25:12 [Steven]

... we can challenge the statement that XHTML cannot be served as text/html

14:26:08 [Steven]

Alessio: I agree; on IE we are just sending a representation

14:26:40 [Steven]

Steven: You think it is OK to send as text/html

14:26:47 [Steven]

Alessio: Yes, but only to IE

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14:27:45 [Steven]

Mark: Leave off the xml-stylesheet at the top

14:27:54 [Steven]

Shane: It is not a simple problem

14:28:02 [Steven]

... I have spent days on this

14:28:23 [Steven]

... We could do a .htaccess on this, but I don't think we can tell the world to do it

14:28:29 [alessio]

Unfortunately we know that browser doesn't support application/xhtml, so it could be a further "message" to IE developers and, why not, for UUAG

14:29:14 [Steven]

ACTION: Shane to do a .htaccess on Drafts page and see if that helps

14:29:37 [Steven]

Shane: The RDFa is still not right on that page either

14:29:41 [Steven]

Steven: We can work on that

14:29:56 [Steven]

Topic: [XHTML1.1] Error in Conformance Definition document?

14:29:56 [Steven]

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-html-wg/2007AprJun/0002

14:31:28 [Steven]

Shane: There are people who feel strongly that XHTML must not be served as text/html

14:32:00 [ShaneM]

FYI: Melinda feels that text/html is legitimate in some contexts.

14:32:56 [Steven]

Steven: Two positions 1) Purist, which is valid, because it does charencoding right for instance

14:33:41 [Steven]

... 2) Pragmatic, since the main UA doesn't accept the needed media type, but can render properly, then just use text/html as a request for UA

14:33:43 [alessio]

for example, some js command to embedded multimedia objects don't work application/xhtml+xml

14:34:12 [Steven]

Mark: Yes, you could see the media type as a switch between apps; let the app decide when it sees the document

14:34:22 [alessio]

yes, I agree

14:34:31 [Steven]

... look what happens when IE sees text/plain for instance

14:35:03 [Steven]

Shane: There is the issue of the difference between HTML and XHTML CSS rules

14:36:39 [Steven]

Mark: I suspect that the areas for ambiguity between UAs is less with XHTML than HTML

14:37:04 [Steven]

... since (assuming it is good XHTML) it is well formed at least

14:37:27 [Steven]

... most articles I read on this get down to the issue that authors get confused

14:37:31 [Steven]

... this is a non-argument

14:39:23 [Steven]

Steven: I think we cannot agree to this request

14:39:34 [Steven]

Shane: The mobile community want to use other media types too

14:40:09 [Steven]

Steven: We say SHOULD because we want it to be like that, but the current state of UAs is so poor that authors have to be given other possibilities

14:40:26 [ShaneM]

and that's a good reason too.

14:42:20 [Steven]

Mark: We should adopt the position that the document is different from the rendering of the document

14:43:28 [Steven]

Shane: I agree, we don't require an XML parser, just something that behaves like it

14:43:52 [Steven]

... HTML 4 says that it is SGML, but there are no UAs that do that

14:44:17 [Steven]

... so text/html has different parsing rules, but they aren't supported either

14:44:34 [Steven]

Mark: Why do we care about the aprsing?

14:44:42 [Steven]

s/apr/par/

14:44:49 [Steven]

SHane: Failure mode

14:44:52 [Steven]

s/SH/Sh/

14:45:01 [Steven]

Mark: Why do we care about that

14:45:27 [Steven]

Shane: We don't, but the HTML community wants tag soup to be valid

14:45:38 [Steven]

s/that/that?/

14:46:27 [Steven]

Mark: We should just say, if you are not well-formed, it is undefined what a UA does

14:46:32 [Steven]

Steven: We do say that

14:46:55 [Steven]

Mark: We shouldn't say that it aborts, just that it is undefined

14:47:27 [Steven]

... the current behaviour of Firefox is to abort

14:47:33 [Steven]

... why bother

14:47:33 [ShaneM]

Mark Proposal: define that user agent behavior is undefined in the presence of invalid / non-well formed content

14:47:46 [Steven]

Steven: Because XML says it should

14:48:07 [Steven]

s/bother/bother?/

14:49:24 [Steven]

Alessio: This would be a great help to the developer

14:49:46 [ShaneM]

we currently say this (in XHTML 2): #

14:49:46 [ShaneM]

14:49:46 [ShaneM]

The user agent must parse and evaluate an XHTML 2 document for well-formedness. If the user agent claims to be a validating user agent, it must also validate documents against a referenced schema according to [XML].

14:50:09 [alessio]

browser itself validates...

14:51:21 [Steven]

Steven: This discussion just supports our discussion in Venice

14:51:59 [Steven]

... we leave space for people to do a best-effort at delivering the stuff to the end user, which after all, is what it is all about

14:52:36 [ShaneM]

Documents COnformance: A conforming XHTML family document is a valid instance of an XHTML Host Language Conforming Document Type.

14:52:43 [Steven]

Shane: Actually, our conformance still seems to match what we want

14:53:41 [Steven]

Shane: We just need to make explicit that behaviour is undefined for invalid docs

14:55:03 [ShaneM]

For the avoidance of doubt,. the behavior of user agents in the presence of invalid documents is undefined.

14:55:36 [Steven]

Shane: Validity is determined by the doctype

14:55:53 [Steven]

... which includes the ability to handle />

14:57:30 [ShaneM]

ACTION: Shane to add clarification to section 3.4 of M12N 1.1

14:57:37 [Zakim]

-ShaneM

14:57:47 [Steven]

RESOLUTION: In the current state of UAs, we cannot make this a MUST

14:57:55 [Steven]

s/In/With/

14:58:17 [Zakim]

-Steven

14:58:19 [Zakim]

-markbirbeck

14:58:20 [Steven]

ADJOURNED

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-Alessio

14:58:26 [Zakim]

IA_XHTML2()10:00AM has ended

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Attendees were ShaneM, Steven, +44.207.689.aaaa, markbirbeck, Alessio

14:58:37 [Steven]

rrsagen, make minutes

14:58:42 [Steven]

rrsagent, make minutes

14:58:42 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/04/18-xhtml-minutes.html Steven

15:00:40 [alessio]

I have some rust on my spoken english, be patient :)

15:01:33 [alessio]

bye all

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