See also: IRC log, previous 2007-03-26
Ben: I am moving to California, so would
appreciate a later telecon time for future meetings
... not changing jobs
... 7am Pacific might be ok, 8am Pacific better
ACTION: MarkB to work rdf:label back into RDFa syntax when using @content [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/03/19-rdfa-minutes.html#action25] [CONTINUES]
Mark: can make a proposal in email
ACTION: Wing add a property to the test case schema for tracking origin and approval of an individual test [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/03/05-rdfa-minutes.html#action11] [CONTINUES]
Ralph: Wing wanted a reminder to actually update the documents
ACTION: Ben start a list of RDF/XML features that are not supported by RDFa [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/01/23-swd-minutes.html#action01] [CONTINUES]
Michael: I was planning to get back to this after test suite work
ACTION: Ben to include agenda item for approval of existing tests [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/03/12-rdfa-minutes.html#action02] [CONTINUES]
ACTION: Ben to look into Science Commons use case [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/12/11-htmltf-minutes.html#action04] [CONTINUES]
Ben: I do have regular conversations with Science Commons. Thus far nothing has come up that's not already covered in Use Cases
ACTION: [DONE] Ben to take a look at http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2006Jun/0001.html to see if issue has been resolved [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/03/12-rdfa-minutes.html#action17]
-> status of LeeF's comments [Ben 2007-04-01]
Ben: I'd like to look over the open issues I extracted and confirm they are still open
Michael: regarding use cases, I saw a solicitation for summer interns
Ben: I do continue to prod Science Commons to sponsor more RDFa-related projects
Michael: I'd like to see some tools for generating RDFa from templates
ACTION: Elias to look for cases where plain literal is more of a common use. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/03/19-rdfa-minutes.html#action24] [CONTINUES]
ACTION: Elias to send email to list with use case from IBM [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/12/04-htmltf-minutes.html#action10] [CONTINUES]
ACTION: Mark produce more examples of applicability of n-ary relations from IPTC documents [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/10/23-htmltf-minutes.html#action08] [CONTINUES]
ACTION: Steven to put together sample XHTML2 doc with all mime type, etc. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/09/19-htmltf-minutes.html#action01] [CONTINUES]
Ben: Mike Linksvayer, CTO of Creative Commons, sent mail asking what DOCTYPE declaration would appear
Steven: I think that's just a naming issue
<mhausenblas> Mikes question regarding DOCTYPE
Shane: modularization works by creating a
hybrid document type with its own DOCTYPE declaration
... not by arbitrarly combining things
-> http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/track/issues/28 ISSUE 28
Ralph: Mike Linksvayer's question is exactly ISSUE 28
<ShaneM> The proposed DOCTYPE for the module is <!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD XHTML+RDFa 1.0//EN" "http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/DTD/xhtml+rdfa-1.dtd">
ACTION: MarkB to ask Shane to make his document public [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/03/19-rdfa-minutes.html#action23] [DONE]
Shane: I did not realize that there was a problem with using the HTML Member-only area
Steven: part of the XHTML2 WG transition will be to move all our drafts to public space
Shane: there are some outstanding actions the
XHTML2 WG wants to address
... let me explain the architecture of modules
... a module is like a function library; it's a freestanding list of
components
... the example DOCTYPE I cited above does function
... and it permits href everywhere
... architecturally it was gratifying to see that stuff designed back in 1999
does support this
... I believe this is correctly implemented both as DTD and XML Schema
... I feel this is ready to go public, module a handful of issues I posted to
the XHTML2 WG
... I expect the XHTML2 WG can resolve these within a couple of days
Steven: this will work out-of-the-box in the
W3C HTML validator
... but we should warn the W3C Webmaster that we're going to use this
Ben: will it be a dropdown in the validator?
Steven: not sure, good idea
Shane: as an exercise, I temporarily changed
the System Identifier in a test document to something known to the W3C
validator and it did access the DTD
... the W3C validator is reasonably smart
Ben: what are the consequences of viewing a document like this in current browsers?
Steven: a DTD declaration does trigger
"standards mode" in deployed browsers but they don't complain
... obviously, they don't do anything with hrefs on other elements
... and the DOM won't necessarily contain all the attributes
Ben: what's the reason for allowing href everywhere in this module?
Steven: RDFa needs it, like @rel everywhere
Ben: just to be devil's advocate, <li href=..."> won't appear as a link
Steven: right, but the syntax document specifies it
Ben: I thought we were not going to try to add @href everywhere for XHTML 1.1 module
Steven: yes, a long time ago we thought it wouldn't be possible but Shane figured out how to do it
Ben: but if @href is not rendered as a link, should we still do it?
Steven: I don't see it as a problem
... people shouldn't expect @href to render as a link everywhere, just with
A
... the only clickable links will be those with A
Ben: I expect some negative feedback on that
... links that don't render as clickable links
Shane: The RDFa spec does not require every
@HREF to be clickable
... isn't it required for generating some triples?
Ralph: it might make sense to revisit our expectations w.r.t @HREF everywhere and what would render as clickable
<ShaneM> Actually, the xhtml-rdfa spec requires that conforming user agents make @href clickable.
Ralph: but I understood our goals for the XHTML
1.1 module as "do as much as we could of the full design with the constraints
of 1.1 modularizaion"
... so I'm pleased if Shane has found a way to support more of the full
design
Ben: [example of DIV, with bnode becoming the triple object]
Mark: in the XHTML2 WG discussion, some things
were added back in the 1.1 module that this TF had removed thinking it
couldn't be done
... should we try to put in all the features we can and then add a separate
issue on creating a lighter profile?
... we can discuss whether we need a lighter profile that conforms more
closely to HTML
Ben: yes, that's exactly my concern
... even if our DTD allows META in the body, current browsers will relocate
the elements in the DOM to the head
... @HREF on non-anchor elements is a different, lesser, kind of conflict
with HTML but may still cause unexpected results
Mark: the idea is to say "if you form your
document in this way, it will work in the following environments"
... recent conversation with Dave Raggett about server-side processing
... rather than going to the lowest common denominator, let's consider
[profile] guidelines
Michael: sounds like 'levels' to me
... question is also what an agent will see
... I'd like to see semweb agents being able to see more @HREF objects
... so I don't see this from a SemWeb point of view
... the concern is only what users will see in the browser
Steven: regarding META and LINK in body ...
... a few weeks ago a concern was raised about relying on elements in the
XHTML namespace
... there's still room in the design space there; I'd like to investigate
decoupling these more
Ben: from the viewpoint of an HTML author, I
would find it surprising that RDFa would change how things are expected to be
rendered
... I'd consider this a version change to HTML
Steven: what rendering do you think will change?
Ben: an HTML author will think of RDFa only as an extension to add metadata
<ShaneM> xhtml-rdfa says: "ctuation occurs as the default action of a [DOM] DOMActivate event for the element on which the attribute occurs (for instance as the result of the user clicking on the associated element). If elements contained within an element using an href also use an href attribute, the User Agent must provide a mechanism for actuating any of these "nested" URIs."
Ralph: if we permit HTML authors to add @HREF now and understand that it doesn't change rendering, then if XHTML2 later comes along and makes all @HREFs clickable, will we create traps for document authors?
Steven: I believe the spec does and should specify somewhere that all @HREFs are dereferenceable
Mark: the question is whether XHTML2 specifying
that all @HREFs are clickable should carry forward to RDfa
... not sure this causes the kind of shock Ralph is describing
Ben: the way we have pitched RDFa is to add
structure to marked-up HTML
... with adding @HREF everywhere in a 1.1 module, we're doing more than just
adding structure
... I'd prefer sticking with 'wherever @HREF is currently permitted, RDFa
adds structure'
... I worry about people who understand HTML in a certain way now
Ralph: I suggest a new open issue "Should we allow @HREF everywhere?"
Mark: the real question is "Should @HREF everywhere be clickable?"
Shane: I'd make that more specific -- should a conforming user agent make all @HREFs clickabale?
<mhausenblas> old discussion
ACTION: Ben to add issue to issues list and start discussion with previous reference and issue reference [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/04/02-rdfa-minutes.html#action12]
Mark: the link Michael cited is to an
already-resolved issue
... we did talk previously about @HREF in general
Ben: in February 2006 we weren't talking about XHTML 1.1
Shane: yes, we were not envisioning this for XHTML 1.1 a year ago
Mark: I can include RDFa in my [W3C track] talk
Steven: RDFa is a part of xh, right?
Mark: yes
Ben: will you show some copy-and-paste examples
with in-context RDFa?
... the fact that you can right-click and get triples in context should be
shown
... I'll ask Harry and Fabien to mention this too
Mark: I could show that
... I'm still considering how far to go in describing similarities with
microformats and all the things that FireFox plug-ins currently do with
microformats
<mhausenblas> RDFa real -world usage
Michael: it would be helpful to encourage people who plan to use RDFa to help with promotion
Ben: I have to cancel my WWW2007 attendance due to my house move
Ben: next week is Easter holiday in Europe
Ralph: regrets for 16 April; it's a Massachusetts holiday and I'll be helping at the Boston Marathon
ACTION: [DONE] Mark produce RDFa XHTML 1.1 module and spec [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/12/18-htmltf-minutes.html#action06]
ACTION: [DONE] Mark produce RDFa XHTML 1.1 module using XML Schema [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/12/18-htmltf-minutes.html#action06]