12:54:07 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #rdfa
12:54:07 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2007/04/02-rdfa-irc
12:54:10 <RalphS> zakim, this will be rdfa
12:54:10 <Zakim> ok, RalphS; I see SW_SWD(RDFa)9:00AM scheduled to start in 6 minutes
12:54:16 <RalphS> Meeting: RDF-in-XHTML TF
12:56:37 <RalphS> -> http://www.w3.org/2007/03/26-rdfa-minutes.html previous 2007-03-26
12:59:26 <mhausenblas> mhausenblas has joined #rdfa
12:59:39 <Steven_> Steven_ has joined #rdfa
12:59:58 <Steven_> zakim, dial steven-617
12:59:58 <Zakim> ok, Steven_; the call is being made
12:59:59 <Zakim> SW_SWD(RDFa)9:00AM has now started
13:00:01 <Zakim> +Steven
13:00:27 <Zakim> + +043316876aaaa
13:00:45 <mhausenblas> zakim, aaa is mhausenblas
13:00:45 <Zakim> sorry, mhausenblas, I do not recognize a party named 'aaa'
13:00:59 <mhausenblas> zakim, aaaa is mhausenblas
13:00:59 <Zakim> +mhausenblas; got it
13:01:11 <mhausenblas> zakim, who is on the call?
13:01:11 <Zakim> On the phone I see Steven, mhausenblas
13:01:30 <mhausenblas> agenda?
13:02:22 <Zakim> +??P2
13:03:32 <ShaneM> ShaneM has joined #rdfa
13:04:07 <Zakim> +Ralph
13:04:26 <RalphS> zakim, ??p2 is Shane
13:04:29 <Zakim> +Shane; got it
13:05:07 <Zakim> + +44.442.076.89.aabb
13:05:20 <RalphS> zakim, aabb is Mark
13:05:20 <Zakim> +Mark; got it
13:05:27 <benadida> benadida has joined #rdfa
13:05:30 <RalphS> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2007Apr/0004.html
13:05:34 <Zakim> +Ben_Adida
13:06:41 <Steven_> zakim, who is here?
13:06:41 <Zakim> On the phone I see Steven, mhausenblas, Shane, Ralph, Mark, Ben_Adida
13:06:42 <Zakim> On IRC I see benadida, ShaneM, Steven_, mhausenblas, RRSAgent, Zakim, RalphS
13:06:42 <RalphS> Regrets: Wing
13:06:46 <RalphS> Chair: Ben
13:07:39 <benadida> zakim, pick a victim
13:07:39 <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose Ralph
13:07:52 <RalphS> Scribe: Ralph
13:07:56 <RalphS> scribenick: ralphs
13:08:32 <RalphS> Topic: Convene
13:08:50 <RalphS> Ben: I am moving to California, so would appreciate a later telecon time
13:09:04 <RalphS> ... not changing jobs
13:09:51 <RalphS> ... 7am Pacific might be ok, 8am Pacific better
13:10:02 <RalphS> Topic: Action Items
13:10:24 <RalphS> agenda+ TAG discussing CURIEs [Steven]
13:11:44 <RalphS> ACTION: MarkB to work rdf:label back into RDFa syntax when using @content [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/03/19-rdfa-minutes.html#action25]
13:11:46 <RalphS> -- continues
13:12:08 <RalphS> Mark: can make a proposal in email
13:12:16 <RalphS> ACTION: Wing add a property to the test case schema for tracking origin and approval of an individual test [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/03/05-rdfa-minutes.html#action11]
13:12:18 <RalphS> -- continue
13:12:26 <RalphS> Ralph: Wing wanted a reminder to actually update the documents
13:12:33 <RalphS> ACTION: Ben start a list of RDF/XML features that are not supported by RDFa [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/01/23-swd-minutes.html#action01]
13:12:35 <RalphS> -- continues
13:12:41 <Steven_> zakim, mute me
13:12:41 <Zakim> sorry, Steven_, I do not know which phone connection belongs to you
13:12:56 <Steven_> zakim, I am Steven
13:12:56 <Zakim> ok, Steven_, I now associate you with Steven
13:12:57 <RalphS> Michael: I was planning to get back to this after test suite work
13:13:05 <RalphS> ACTION: Ben to include agenda item for approval of existing tests [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/03/12-rdfa-minutes.html#action02]
13:13:06 <Steven_> zakim, mute me
13:13:06 <Zakim> Steven should now be muted
13:13:06 <RalphS> -- continues
13:13:18 <RalphS> ACTION: Ben to look into Science Commons use case [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/12/11-htmltf-minutes.html#action04]
13:13:23 <RalphS> -- continues
13:13:44 <RalphS> Ben: I do have regular conversations with Science Commons.  Thus far nothing has come up that's not already covered in Use Cases
13:13:58 <RalphS> [DONE] ACTION: Ben to take a look at http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2006Jun/0001.html to see if issue has been resolved [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/03/12-rdfa-minutes.html#action17]
13:14:16 <RalphS> Ben: I'd like to look over the open issues I extracted and confirm they are still open
13:14:35 <RalphS> Michael: regarding use cases, I saw a solicitation for summer interns
13:14:58 <RalphS> Ben: I do continue to prod Science Commons to sponsor more RDFa-related projects
13:15:07 <Steven> Steven has joined #rdfa
13:15:18 <Steven> zakim, I am Steven
13:15:18 <Zakim> ok, Steven, I now associate you with Steven
13:15:23 <RalphS> Michael: I'd like to see some tools for generating RDFa from templates
13:16:20 <RalphS> ACTION: Elias to look for cases where plain literal is more of a common use. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/03/19-rdfa-minutes.html#action24]
13:16:22 <RalphS> -- continues
13:17:03 <RalphS> ACTION: Elias to send email to list with use case from IBM [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/12/04-htmltf-minutes.html#action10]
13:17:07 <RalphS> -- continues
13:17:20 <RalphS> ACTION: Mark produce more examples of applicability of n-ary relations from IPTC documents [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/10/23-htmltf-minutes.html#action08]
13:17:26 <RalphS> --continues
13:17:52 <RalphS> ACTION: Steven to put together sample XHTML2 doc with all mime type, etc. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/09/19-htmltf-minutes.html#action01]
13:17:52 <Steven> zakim, unmute me
13:17:52 <Zakim> Steven should no longer be muted
13:18:34 <RalphS> Ben: Mike Linksvayer, CTO of Creative Commons, sent mail asking what DOCTYPE declaration would appear
13:18:55 <RalphS> Steven: I think that's just a naming issue
13:18:57 <mhausenblas> -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2007Mar/0091.html Mikes REquest
13:19:19 <RalphS> Shane: modularization works by creating a hybrid document type with its own DOCTYPE declaration
13:19:26 <RalphS> ... not by arbitrarly combining things
13:19:43 <mhausenblas> s/REquest/question regarding DOCTYPE
13:19:47 <RalphS> -> http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/track/products/2 RDFa open issues
13:20:14 <RalphS> -> http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/track/issues/28 ISSUE 28
13:20:38 <RalphS> Ralph: Mike Linksvayer's question is exactly issue 28
13:20:46 <RalphS> -- continues
13:20:55 <ShaneM>  The proposed DOCTYPE for the module is <!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD XHTML+RDFa 1.0//EN"    "http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/DTD/xhtml+rdfa-1.dtd">
13:21:59 <RalphS> zakim, agenda order 4,2
13:21:59 <Zakim> ok, RalphS
13:22:04 <RalphS> zakim, move to next agendum
13:22:04 <Zakim> agendum 4. "XHTML 1.1 Module for RDFa" taken up [from RalphS]
13:22:13 <RalphS> ACTION: MarkB to ask Shane to make his document public [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/03/19-rdfa-minutes.html#action23]
13:22:18 <RalphS> -- done
13:22:33 <RalphS> Shane: I did not realize that there was a problem with using the HTML Member-only area
13:22:48 <RalphS> Steven: part of the XHTML2 WG transition will be to move all our drafts to public space
13:23:03 <RalphS> Shane: there are some outstanding actions the XHTML2 WG wants to address
13:23:12 <RalphS> ... let me explain the architecture of modules
13:23:31 <RalphS> ... a module is like a function library; it's a freestanding list of components
13:23:56 <RalphS> ... the example DOCTYPE I cited above does function
13:24:01 <RalphS> ... and it permits href everywhere
13:24:24 <RalphS> ... architecturally it was gratifying to see that stuff designed back in 1999 does support this
13:24:41 <RalphS> ... I believe this is correctly implemented both as DTD and XML Schema
13:24:59 <RalphS> ... I feel this is ready to go public, module a handful of issues I posted to the XHTML2 WG
13:25:11 <RalphS> ... I expect the XHTML2 WG can resolve these within a couple of days
13:25:35 <RalphS> Steven: this will work out-of-the-box in the W3C HTML validator
13:25:46 <RalphS> ... but we should warn the W3C Webmaster that we're going to use this
13:25:52 <RalphS> Ben: will it be a dropdown in the validator?
13:25:58 <RalphS> Steven: not sure, good idea
13:26:37 <RalphS> Shane: as an exercise, I temporarily changed the System Identifier in a test document to something known to the W3C validator and it did access the DTD
13:26:50 <RalphS> ... the W3C validator is reasonably smart
13:27:06 <RalphS> Ben: what are the consequences of viewing a document like this in current browsers?
13:27:35 <RalphS> Steven: a DTD declaration does trigger "standards mode" in deployed browsers but they don't complain
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13:28:03 <RalphS> ... obviously, they don't do anything with hrefs on other elements
13:28:19 <RalphS> ... and the DOM won't necessarily contain all the attributes
13:28:30 <RalphS> Ben: what's the reason for allowing href everywhere in this module?
13:28:42 <RalphS> Steven: RDFa needs it, like @rel everywhere
13:29:07 <RalphS> Ben: just to be devil's advocate, <li href=..."> won't appear as a link
13:29:16 <RalphS> Steven: right, but the syntax document specifies it
13:29:43 <RalphS> Ben: I thought we were not going to try to add @href everywhere for XHTML 1.1 module
13:29:57 <RalphS> Steven: yes, a long time ago we thought it wouldn't be possible but Shane figured out how to do it
13:30:09 <RalphS> Ben: but if @href is not rendered as a link, should we still do it?
13:30:15 <RalphS> Steven: I don't see it as a problem
13:30:32 <RalphS> ... people shouldn't expect @href to render as a link everywhere, just with A
13:30:47 <RalphS> ... the only clickable links will be those with A
13:30:57 <RalphS> Ben: I expect some negative feedback on that
13:31:06 <RalphS> ... links that don't render as clickable links
13:31:23 <RalphS> Shane: The RDFa spec does not require every @HREF to be clickable
13:31:30 <RalphS> ... isn't it required for generating some triples?
13:32:37 <RalphS> Ralph: it might make sense to revisit our expectations w.r.t @HREF everywhere and what would render as clickable
13:32:40 <mhausenblas> q+
13:32:44 <ShaneM>  Actually, the xhtml-rdfa spec requires that conforming user agents make @href clickable.
13:32:46 <markbirbeck> q+
13:33:07 <RalphS> ... but I understood our goals for the XHTML 1.1 module as "do as much as we could of the full design with the constraints of 1.1 modularizaion"
13:33:21 <RalphS> ... so I'm pleased if Shane has found a way to support more of the full design
13:33:56 <RalphS> Ben: [example of DIV, with bnode becoming the triple object]
13:34:28 <RalphS> Mark: in the XHTML2 WG discussion, some things were added back in the 1.1 module that this TF had removed thinking it couldn't be done
13:35:04 <RalphS> Mark: should we try to put in all the features we can and then add a separate issue on creating a lighter profile?
13:35:37 <RalphS> ... we can discuss whether we need a lighter profile that conforms more closely to HTML
13:35:44 <RalphS> Ben: yes, that's exactly my concern
13:36:05 <RalphS> ... even if our DTD allows META in the body, current browsers will relocate the elements in the DOM to the head
13:36:17 <Steven> q+
13:36:50 <RalphS> ... @HREF on non-anchor elements is a different, lesser, kind of conflict with HTML but may still cause unexpected results
13:37:09 <RalphS> Mark: the idea is to say "if you form your document in this way, it will work in the following environments"
13:37:31 <RalphS> ... recent conversation with Dave Raggett about server-side processing
13:37:57 <RalphS> ... rather than going to the lowest common denominator, let's consider [profile] guidelines
13:38:03 <RalphS> Michael: sounds like 'levels' to me
13:38:18 <RalphS> ... question is also what an agent will see
13:38:37 <RalphS> ... I'd like to see semweb agents being able to see more @HREF objects
13:38:44 <RalphS> ... so I don't see this from a SemWeb point of view
13:39:00 <RalphS> ... the concern is only what users will see in the browser
13:39:06 <RalphS> Steven: regarding META and LINK in body ...
13:39:39 <RalphS> ... a few weeks ago a concern was raised about relying on elements in the XHTML namespace
13:39:58 <RalphS> ... there's still room in the design space there; I'd like to investigate decoupling these more
13:40:29 <RalphS> Ben: from the viewpoint of an HTML author, I would find it surprising that RDFa would change how things are expected to be rendered
13:40:36 <RalphS> ... I'd consider this a version change to HTML
13:40:46 <RalphS> Steven: what rendering do you think will change?
13:40:52 <markbirbeck> q+
13:41:16 <RalphS> Ben: an HTML author will think of RDFa only as an extension to add metadata
13:43:01 <ShaneM>  xhtml-rdfa says: "ctuation occurs as the default action of a [DOM] DOMActivate event for the element on which the attribute occurs (for instance as the result of the user clicking on the associated element). If elements contained within an element using an href also use an href attribute, the User Agent must provide a mechanism for actuating any of these "nested" URIs."
13:43:02 <RalphS> Ralph: if we permit HTML authors to add @HREF now and understand that it doesn't change rendering, then if XHTML2 later comes along and makes all @HREFs clickable, will we create traps for document authors?
13:43:35 <RalphS> Steven: I believe the spec does and should specify somewhere that all @HREFs are dereferenceable
13:43:58 <RalphS> Mark: the question is whether XHTML2 specifying that all @HREFs are clickable should carry forward to RDfa
13:44:19 <RalphS> ... not sure this causes the kind of shock Ralph is describing
13:44:41 <RalphS> Ben: the way we have pitched RDFa is to add structure to marked-up HTML
13:44:55 <RalphS> ... with adding @HREF everywhere in a 1.1 module, we're doing more than just adding structure
13:45:20 <RalphS> ... I'd prefer sticking with 'wherever @HREF is currently permitted, RDFa adds structure'
13:45:37 <RalphS> ... I worry about people who understand HTML in a certain way now
13:46:25 <RalphS> Ralph: I suggest a new open issue "Should we allow @HREF everywhere?"
13:46:39 <RalphS> Mark: the real question is "Should @HREF everywhere be clickable?"
13:47:22 <RalphS> Shane: I'd make that more specific -- should a conforming user agent make all @HREFs clickabale?
13:47:33 <mhausenblas> -> http://www.w3.org/2006/02/06-htmltf-minutes#item03 old discussion
13:48:27 <benadida> ACTION: Ben to add issue to issues list and start discussion with previous reference and issue reference
13:50:18 <RalphS> Mark: the link Michael cited is to an already-resolved issue
13:50:26 <RalphS> ... we did talk previously about @HREF in general
13:50:37 <RalphS> Ben: in February 2006 we weren't talking about XHTML 1.1
13:51:07 <RalphS> Shane: yes, we were not envisioning this for XHTML 1.1 a year ago
13:51:56 <RalphS> close this agendum
13:52:09 <RalphS> zakim, take up agendum 3
13:52:09 <Zakim> agendum 3. "WWW2007" taken up [from RalphS]
13:52:26 <RalphS> Mark: I can include RDFa in my [W3C track] talk
13:52:38 <RalphS> Steven: RDFa is a part of xh, right?
13:52:41 <RalphS> Mark: yes
13:52:53 <RalphS> Ben: will you show some copy-and-paste examples with in-context RDFa?
13:53:04 <RalphS> ... the fact that you can right-click and get triples in context should be shown
13:53:07 <mhausenblas> q+
13:53:12 <RalphS> ... I'll ask Harry and Fabien to mention this too
13:53:18 <RalphS> Mark: I could show that
13:53:45 <RalphS> ... I'm still considering how far to go in describing similarities with microformats and all the things that FireFox plug-ins currently do with microformats
13:53:56 <mhausenblas> -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2007Mar/0111.html RDFa real -world usage
13:54:17 <RalphS> Michael: it would be helpful to encourage people who plan to use RDFa to help with promotion
13:55:15 <RalphS> Ben: I have to cancel my WWW2007 attendance due to my house move
13:55:26 <RalphS> close this agendum
13:56:35 <RalphS> Ben: next week is Easter holiday in Europe
13:57:02 <RalphS> Ralph: regrets for 16 April; it's a Massachusetts holiday and I'll be helping at the Boston Marathon
13:58:10 <RalphS> [DONE] ACTION: Mark produce RDFa XHTML 1.1 module and spec [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/12/18-htmltf-minutes.html#action06]
13:58:21 <RalphS> [DONE] ACTION: Mark produce RDFa XHTML 1.1 module using XML Schema [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/12/18-htmltf-minutes.html#action06]
13:58:34 <RalphS> [adjourned]
13:58:41 <Zakim> -Steven
13:58:42 <Zakim> -Mark
13:58:42 <Zakim> -Ben_Adida
13:58:44 <Zakim> -Ralph
13:58:45 <Zakim> -Shane
13:58:47 <Zakim> -mhausenblas
13:58:48 <Zakim> SW_SWD(RDFa)9:00AM has ended
13:58:50 <Zakim> Attendees were Steven, +043316876aaaa, mhausenblas, Ralph, Shane, +44.442.076.89.aabb, Mark, Ben_Adida
13:59:06 <RalphS> rrsagent, please make record public
13:59:10 <RalphS> rrsagent, please draft minutes
13:59:10 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/04/02-rdfa-minutes.html RalphS
14:16:28 <benadida> benadida has left #rdfa