W3C

RDF-in-XHTML Task Force

18 Jul 2006

Agenda

See also: IRC log, previous 2006-05-15

Attendees

Present
Steven Pemberton, Ralph Swick, Ben Adida, Mark Birbeck, Elias Torres
Regrets
Chair
Ben
Scribe
Ralph

Contents


 

Steven: I've given 2 talks in the past two months including RDFa
... one to a Dutch HCI conference about future interfaces
... I talked about how RDFa can improve the user experience by permitting the browser to do more
... then gave a modified version of the same talk to a Web 2.0 conference
... was less technical; I talked about how RDFa could mean less work for people producing Web sites
... also, I was interviewed on radio and for print magazines; should be published in the next month
... a business-oriented Dutch IT newsletter
... I have a link to the radio interview on my home page
... business people have been very receptive to the whole story

Elias: I will be focussing on RDFa for IBM
... My name is pronounced like "eh-LEE-us"
... Wing Yung (IBM) just added RDFa support on top of jena; may have a demo later

Previous actions

-> Previous Actions

Ben: as we're in limbo between the two WGs let's focus on the implementations for now

Ralph: Guus and Tom Baker are out during July/August, so SWD starts in September

Mark: the tutorial document has some things that do not quite match the spec

Ralph: -> SemWeb Deployment WG charter

Ben: there is an aggressive schedule in the SWD charter
... there are some hard issues raised on the mailing list
... but we should not try to resolve them until [SWD formally starts in] September
... however, it's ok to fix things in editor's drafts

Mark: it's just that people trying to implement RDFa have noted conflicting details between the two documents
... things like the use of the role attribute
... the primer uses role in a certain way but the spec doesn't talk about role

<benadida> Task Force mailing list

Ben: the most important thing we can do for the next 6 weeks is update our issues list

<EliasT> I sent a few bugs in the spec that don't require WG approval but need patching.

<EliasT> Here are my comments

Steven: there are some unanswered comments
... we should make sure we've addressed comments

Ben: Lee Feigenbaum also sent some spec comments

<EliasT> Lee's comments

ACTION: Ben update the issues list [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/07/18-HTMLTF-minutes.html#action01]

ACTION: Ben make sure RDFA bookmarklet runs locally [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/05/15-htmltf-minutes.html#action08] [CONTINUES]

Ben: I propose to withdraw this as it was mostly for the Edinburg demos

Ralph: is it not interesting outside of a demo context?

Ben: but it's only useful to run the bookmarklet locally if you're also running a local Web server, due to javascript security sandboxing

Mark: if a user chooses to configure it to run locally, would it be useful?

Ben: but that configuration would open a security hole for other javascript

Mark: I'm not sure there's no way to configure things to only support certain javascript

Elias: do what tabulator does?

<EliasT> http://esw.w3.org/topic/SparqlCalendarDemoUsage

Elias: signed applet code base principal support

Ben: bookmarklet does not the same one, but I'm glad to see the changes
... if you want to give the bookmarklet any rights then the page you're viewing when you activate the bookmarklet would inherit the same rights
... the attack paths are complicated but we should not recommend that people open these vulnerabilities

Elias: though the name of the option 'signed.applets.codebase_principal_support' does imply signed applets, tabulator is not an applet and is using this option

Ben: it does appear that the tabulator approach is much better than the previous hack
... our goal should be to help people try out RDFa

-- action continues

Mark: you'd also considered using greasemonkey

Ben: yep

ACTION: Ben start separate mail threads on remaining discussion topics [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/12/06-swbp-minutes#action04] [CONTINUES]

ACTION: Ben to draft full response to Bjoern's 2004 email [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/01/24-swbp-minutes.html#action03] [CONTINUES]

Ben: I got some great feedback from Steven on draft response

ACTION: Ben write a prototype hGRDDL profile for XHTML 1 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/05/08-htmltf-minutes.html#action06] [CONTINUES]

ACTION: once Steven sends editors' draft of XHTML2, all TF members take a look and comment on showstopper issues only [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/02/06-htmltf-minutes.html#action01] [CONTINUES]

Steven: XHTML2 editors' draft is just about ready.
... remaining issue is the new wording to describe role
... hope to have the draft ready before the next telecon

Ben: will this correct the spec mistakes?

Mark: I'll have to check -- the issue we've been discussing is the wording for 'role'

ACTION: Ben fix content negotiation on his current personal Web hosting site to make http://ben.adida.net/card (w/o ".html") work again [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/07/18-HTMLTF-minutes.html#action07]

move to next agendum

Review of WWW2006

Ben: there were 3 talks about RDFa
... a W3C AC Meeting lightning talk
... I've posted my slides
... there was a lively discussion afterward
... there were two talks at WWW2006 conference; one from developer's point of view, other just from SemWeb point of view

<EliasT> Ben's Presentations for WWW2006

<EliasT> rdfa presentations

Ben: there were microformats talks before each one so I pointed out the additional benefits of RDFa, including scaling
... a developer from AOL building widgets looking for general ways to describe data was interested in the features of RDFa over microformats
... some questions about XHTML modules; we don't have complete answers to these yet

<EliasT> Kevin Lawver of AOL

Ben: sweetwiki is using RDFa; they gave me a bit of material to include in a slide

Mark: it's a good time to come in with a full solution as people are starting to look at microformats more closely

-> Paper>>SweetWiki-Semantic WEb Enabled Technologies in Wiki

Steven: the tone of the microformats presentations were "we create microformats and you use them"
... in retrospect, about the CURIE debate, people really did not understand what the issues were
... people really needed a tutorial about CURIEs before the debate
... and the actual debate unraveled over things that were not specific to CURIEs

Ben: if we drop CURIEs we lose a lot of our bnode support, so it's not just the IPTC issue

Mark: I'm only proposing that in the XHTML2 spec we refer only to QName
... we can update later assuming CURIE is a superset of QName

Elias: it was good to focus on the differences added by RDFa
... the philosophy of RDFa is what makes it important for us versus microformats; scaling, etc.
... the problem is in the timliness of the presentations; people are saying "but microformats are already here"
... this just shows the urgency of our work

Status of various implementations

Ben: my javascript implementation has been moved to www.w3.org
... I will send a summary about this to the WG
... nothing much has changed since the end of May
... there are now dated versions
... I would really like to make this work in greasemonkey

<EliasT> RDFa service.

<EliasT> Now part of RDFLib

Elias: I wrote a sax-based parser to extract RDFa; the code was not complex

<EliasT> http://ben.adida.net/card.xhtml

Elias: then I deployed a service to do this extraction, dumping the output as triples

<EliasT> http://torrez.us/srevices/rdfa/[url]

<EliasT> SELECT * FROM http://torrez.us/srevices/rdfa/[url] WHERE { ... }

Elias: so now we can put RDFa anywhere in the Web and query it with SPARQL

<EliasT> http://abdera.watson.ibm.com:8080/browser/

<EliasT> http://wingerz.com/blog/?p=35

Elias: we just deployed a browser yesterday

<EliasT> http://torrez.us/archives/2006/07/17/471/

Elias: see Wing's post
... we implemented the ATOM protocol to post entries to our endpoint
... we store these posts as RDF
... if the content-type is XHTML we run the java parser and add more triples to the graph
... we only store the RDF version

<EliasT> a SPARQL endpoint

<EliasT> urn:lsid:abdera.watson.ibm.com:entries:397859049

Elias: click on graph, add the URI to ATOM entry, uncheck introspection

Elias: what this shows is a data store service that you update using ATOM
... and you extend this using RDFa

<Steven> Doesn't seem to work in Opera

<Ralph> I don't seem to be having much success with Mozilla either

Elias: Tim Bray may demo this at OSCON. I've fixed all the bugs that TimB found

Mark: I don't like that role is becoming rdf:type

Ben: do we agree that rel does not use '[]'?

Mark: yes, we only mention '[]' in the CURIE document where we say the brackets are only needed if there is a possibility of confusion between a URI and a CURIE
... so Wing's blog example is wrong

Ben: the GRDDL transform for RDFa/XHTML2 will recognized the values of rel that are defined in the HTML spec and expand them to xhtml:<value>; other values for rel will be handled differently

Elias: I am constantly faced with how to make embedding of RDF practical

[adjourned]

<benadida> can we meet next week same time?

<Ralph> same time next week OK with me

<benadida> Elias, thanks for a fantastic demo

<Ralph> +1

<benadida> send me an email list of people to credit?

<benadida> sorry, I mean, send me, by email, a list of people to credit

<EliasT> k. I willl.

Summary of Action Items

[NEW] ACTION: Ben fix content negotiation on his current personal Web hosting site to make http://ben.adida.net/card (w/o ".html") work again [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/07/18-HTMLTF-minutes.html#action07]
[NEW] ACTION: Ben update the issues list [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/07/18-HTMLTF-minutes.html#action01]

[PENDING] ACTION: Ben start separate mail threads on remaining discussion topics [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/12/06-swbp-minutes#action04]
[PENDING] ACTION: Ben to draft full response to Bjoern's 2004 email [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/01/24-swbp-minutes.html#action03]
[PENDING] ACTION: Ben write a prototype hGRDDL profile for XHTML 1 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/05/08-htmltf-minutes.html#action06]
[PENDING] ACTION: Ben make sure RDFA bookmarklet runs locally [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/05/15-htmltf-minutes.html#action08]
[PENDING] ACTION: once Steven sends editors' draft of XHTML2, all TF members take a look and comment on showstopper issues only [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/02/06-htmltf-minutes.html#action01]

[End of minutes]

Minutes formatted by David Booth's scribe.perl version 1.127 (CVS log)
$Date: 2006/07/18 22:04:20 $