Technical Architecture Group Teleconference

<jar> http://www.w3.org/2002/07/08-tag-summary#quorum

approval of minutes

did people review the minutes?

=> approval of minutes postponed

administrative items

next call is aug 9

(deepLinking-25): Can publication of hyperlinks constitute copyright infringment?

<Larry:> Let's go through the items Ashok raised

Ashok: should we refer to the governanc doc? (from the P&L one), response was "not yet"

Larry: got mixed feedback on the governance document

<Larry:> got feedback to use Tussles in Cyberspace

ashok: I started to read that doc, not enough yet

<masinter> http://groups.csail.mit.edu/ana/Publications/PubPDFs/Tussle%20in%20Cyberspace%20Defining%20Tomorrows%20Internet%202005's%20Internet.pdf

<masinter> feedback is that the "Tussle" paper is a better foundatin to start with

<masinter> and that governanceFramework should _start_ with Tussle, and use it as the basis for a (shorter) framework

<masinter> the feedback is that we should start with that, and then talk specifically about the 'tussle' in the web

<Ashok> I will review the Tussle paper

<jar> "accommodating this tussle is crucial to the evolution of the network’s technical architecture"

ashok: proxies that, without user interaction, are doing something with data. Some will act if there are policies allowing to process the data. Those statements are not contradictory, but are they sending different messages?

jar: one is judgment, the other one is decisions made by a machine

<jar> judgment is the word I use to mean something a human has to do. computers don't judge

ashok: there are no machine-readable policy languages for intermediaries

<masinter> jar: CCRel is an example

<jar> e.g. http://wiki.creativecommons.org/CC_REL

<masinter> http://www.w3.org/Submission/ccREL/

<masinter> should CCRel be a citation?

<jar> also http://www.w3.org/TR/ct-guidelines/#sec-proxy-use-of-no-transform

<masinter> I don't mind details

<masinter> jar, could you give an example of something you're uncomfortable with and how you might rewrite it?

jar: the idea that the information is owned is not true

<masinter> jar: Could you ground this in a specific example

jar: the internet archive changed its policy to care about robots.txt It was a disservice to the public, and they were not required by law

not sure the report should go into arguments like that

<masinter> jar, where does the report get into something that it shouldn't?

note that the internet archive is protected by library exemption

<jar> Proxies should comply with instructions from origin servers that describe whether pages may be copied and transformed

<masinter> you don't think it is a best practice that proxies comply with instrucctions?

<masinter> under what circumstance is it not a 'best practice'?

<masinter> give an example, just one example, when it isn't a 'best practice'

<masinter> so if it is a caching proxy?

<masinter> proxies that are advertised as to not transform content should not transform content?

<masinter> Jonathan, do you think the BPs are hopelessly unfixable?

jar: not sure about the targeted audience of this document, so I'm confused by this

<masinter> I'm trying to distinguish between "I don't know who this is useful for?" and "I think the advice it gives is wrong and not fixable"

<masinter> I don't think "interesting" is a consensus opinion

<masinter> does anyone else have an opinion,

<masinter> Peter, Yves?

Yves: it would be good to stay strictly in the description of how linking work

so getting rid of most of the BPs

Peter: I thought we made the decision to do so, it seems that we are back again to mixing those

<masinter> cut away more of the policy

<scribe> ACTION: Larry and Ashok to remove the best practises parts of the P&L document [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/08/02-tagmem-minutes.html#action01]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-731 - And Ashok to remove the best practises parts of the P&L document [on Larry Masinter - due 2012-08-09].

<masinter> we could add a reference to 'Tussle' in intro, too

Ashok: it there a way for people to forbid linking?

jar: yes, don't provide a URL

<masinter> temporary URLs, or content in scripting

<masinter> should we talk about those things in this document?

<masinter> ways in which people circumvent ability to deep link?

<masinter> feedback from wendy and thomas were to reference Tussle

jar: the general question is "do you want a legal tool when there are technical tools to do what you want to achieve" (forbiding linking)

Action items

<masinter> action-679?

<trackbot> ACTION-679 -- Yves Lafon to check how Appcache should fit into Ashok's storage document -- due 2012-05-01 -- OPEN

<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/679

<masinter> Yves and Robin convinced Ashok Appcache is not part of local storage

<masinter> close action-679

<trackbot> ACTION-679 check how Appcache should fit into Ashok's storage document closed

<masinter> action-404?

<trackbot> ACTION-404 -- Yves Lafon to track HTML WG ISSUE-27 rel-ownership -- due 2012-06-05 -- OPEN

<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/404

<masinter> should postpone

<masinter> action-404 due in 2 months?

<trackbot> ACTION-404 Track HTML WG ISSUE-27 rel-ownership due date now in 2 months?

<masinter> action-659?

<trackbot> ACTION-659 -- Yves Lafon to track IETF efforts on HTTP 2.0 & SPDY -- due 2012-07-31 -- OPEN

<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/659

<masinter> action-659 due 2012-08-05

<trackbot> ACTION-659 Track IETF efforts on HTTP 2.0 & SPDY due date now 2012-08-05

<masinter> action-617?

<trackbot> ACTION-617 -- Yves Lafon to work with Noah to take http://www.w3.org/TR/2006/WD-namespaceState-20060329/ off the Rec track -- due 2012-06-01 -- OPEN

<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/617

<masinter> peter closed some and changed dates on others

<masinter> action-712?

<trackbot> ACTION-712 -- Peter Linss to help us decide whether to have F2F session on i18n and comparison Due 2012-05-29 -- due 2012-05-31 -- CLOSED

<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/712

<masinter> action-606?

<trackbot> ACTION-606 -- Peter Linss to invite I18N and other concerned groups to provide written technical input as prep to discussion with the TAG regarding unicode normalization -- due 2012-06-12 -- OPEN

<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/606

<masinter> i've heard from Addison recently

<masinter> action-727?

<trackbot> ACTION-727 -- Ashok Malhotra to with help from JAR and Larry to work on a plan for taking a slightly stronger version of the Copyright and Linking draft forward -- due 2012-07-17 -- OPEN

<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/727

<masinter> this is overtaken, we should close it

<masinter> close action-727

<trackbot> ACTION-727 With help from JAR and Larry to work on a plan for taking a slightly stronger version of the Copyright and Linking draft forward closed

<masinter> action-717?

<trackbot> ACTION-717 -- Ashok Malhotra to propose outline for possible TAG document (finding or rec) on architectural issues relating to storage sync, linked data, etc. Due 2012-07-15 -- due 2012-06-20 -- OPEN

<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/717

<masinter> action-717 due 2012-09-01

<trackbot> ACTION-717 Propose outline for possible TAG document (finding or rec) on architectural issues relating to storage sync, linked data, etc. Due 2012-07-15 due date now 2012-09-01

<masinter> action-719?

<trackbot> ACTION-719 -- Larry Masinter to reply to Hannes pointing to the minutes, summarizing the discussion, and asking him if he has any more specific questions. -- due 2012-06-20 -- OPEN

<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/719

<masinter> i talked to hannes Tuesday night; he said he would get back to us

<masinter> action-722?

<trackbot> ACTION-722 -- Jonathan Rees to review 'publishing and linking' due -- due 2012-08-06 -- OPEN

<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/722

<masinter> action-722 due in 1 week

<trackbot> ACTION-722 Review 'publishing and linking' due due date now in 1 week

<masinter> review it after there's a new version of it

<masinter> i think JAR says he'll review P&L after Ashok & Larry update it this week

<masinter> Ashok, you and I are meeting monday to update P&L, and JAR should review after it

<masinter> Ashok, i'll make a pass on cutting out the BPs if you like

<jar> Instead of this action I propose looking at the Tussle paper first

<masinter> close action-722

<trackbot> ACTION-722 Review 'publishing and linking' due closed

<masinter> action-726?

<trackbot> ACTION-726 -- Jonathan Rees to make a list of questions to which webarch and the findings suggest answers to, as input to possible 'study design' and/or communication to chairs etc. -- due 2012-08-14 -- OPEN

<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/726

<masinter> action-728?

<trackbot> ACTION-728 -- Noah Mendelsohn to find editor for copyright and linking after group reviews Ashok's proposals on stronger messages -- due 2012-07-12 -- OPEN

<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/728

<masinter> close action-728

<trackbot> ACTION-728 find editor for copyright and linking after group reviews Ashok's proposals on stronger messages closed

<masinter> action-707?

<trackbot> ACTION-707 -- Henry Thompson to keep an eye on http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-ietf-appsawg-media-type-suffix-regs-00.txt and relation to RFC 3023bis -- due 2012-06-05 -- OPEN

<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/707

<masinter> there's news on this, this week, on the mailing list

<masinter> action-635?

<trackbot> ACTION-635 -- Henry Thompson to update product page for Frag IDS and Mime types, to include realistic goals and dates -- due 2012-06-01 -- OPEN

<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/635

<masinter> the product page is ok but the link from the TAG products overview is wrong

AOB?

ADJOURNED

thank you Larry for chairing