17:02:11 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #tagmem
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17:02:16 <Yves> trackbot, start telcon
17:02:18 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
17:02:20 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be TAG
17:02:20 <Zakim> ok, trackbot, I see TAG_Weekly()1:00PM already started
17:02:21 <trackbot> Meeting: Technical Architecture Group Teleconference
17:02:21 <trackbot> Date: 02 August 2012
17:03:13 <Zakim> -masinter
17:03:46 <Zakim> +??P2
17:04:09 <Yves> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2012Jul/0063.html
17:04:28 <Yves> Chair: Larry
17:04:31 <Yves> Acribe: Yves
17:04:38 <Yves> Scribe: Yves
17:04:42 <masinter> http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/tag-weekly
17:04:56 <masinter> zakim, who's here?
17:04:56 <Zakim> On the phone I see Jonathan_Rees, Ashok_Malhotra, Yves, masinter
17:04:57 <Zakim> On IRC I see RRSAgent, Ashok, darobin, Zakim, masinter, jar, trackbot, plinss, Yves
17:05:25 <jar> http://www.w3.org/2002/07/08-tag-summary#quorum
17:05:53 <Zakim> +plinss
17:05:53 <masinter> regrets+ Robin
17:06:14 <Yves> Topic: approval of minutes
17:06:28 <Yves> did people review the minutes?
17:06:51 <Yves> => approval of minutes postponed
17:07:12 <Yves> Topic: administrative items
17:07:21 <Yves> next call is aug 9
17:07:32 <Yves> Topic: ]ISSUE-25 (deepLinking-25): Can publication of
17:07:48 <Yves> s/]ISSUE-25//
17:08:08 <Yves> s/of/of hyperlinks constitute copyright infringment?
17:08:24 <Yves> Larry: got mixed feedback on the governance document
17:08:54 <masinter> note: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/tag/2012Jul/0018.html 
17:09:24 <masinter> Ashok, let's go through the items Ashok raised
17:10:18 <masinter> I would like to FPWD P&L as is
17:10:42 <masinter> 1. should we reference governanceFramework?
17:10:50 <masinter> Larry: not yet, gotten mixed feedback
17:10:54 <Yves> Ashok: should we refer to the governanc doc? (from the P&L one), response was "not yet"
17:11:29 <masinter> got feedback to use Tussles in Cyberspace
17:12:09 <Yves> ashok: I started to read that doc, not enough yet
17:12:29 <masinter> http://groups.csail.mit.edu/ana/Publications/PubPDFs/Tussle%20in%20Cyberspace%20Defining%20Tomorrows%20Internet%202005's%20Internet.pdf
17:12:47 <masinter> feedback is that the "Tussle" paper is a better foundatin to start with
17:13:11 <masinter> and that governanceFramework should _start_ with Tussle, and use it as the basis for a (shorter) framework
17:14:28 <masinter> the feedback is that we should start with that, and then talk specifically about the 'tussle' in the web
17:15:25 <Ashok> I will review the Tussle paper
17:15:37 <jar> "accommodating this tussle is crucial to the
17:15:37 <jar> evolution of the network’s technical architecture"
17:17:44 <Yves> ashok: proxies that, without user interaction, are doing something with data. Some will act if there are policies allowing to process the data. Those statements are not contradictory, but are they sending different messages?
17:18:07 <Yves> jar: one is judgment, the other one is ???
17:18:26 <jar> s/???/decisions made by a machine/
17:18:53 <jar> judgment is the word I use to mean something a human has to do.  computers don't judge
17:19:10 <masinter> from Ashok's email: BPs " ... should comply with instructions from origin servers that describe whether pages may be copied and transformed, but will only be able to comply with those that are machine-readable."  But no machine-readable policy language defined that would spell out the rules for intermediaries...."
17:19:19 <Yves> ashok: there are no machine-readable policy languages for intermediaries
17:19:36 <masinter> jar: CCRel is an example
17:19:49 <jar> e.g. http://wiki.creativecommons.org/CC_REL
17:19:57 <masinter> http://www.w3.org/Submission/ccREL/
17:20:20 <masinter> should CCRel be a citation?
17:20:59 <Ashok> Let me look at it
17:21:06 <masinter> zakim, mute me
17:21:06 <Zakim> masinter should now be muted
17:21:27 <jar> also http://www.w3.org/TR/ct-guidelines/#sec-proxy-use-of-no-transform
17:22:25 <masinter> I don't mind details
17:23:48 <masinter> jar, could you give an example of something you're uncomfortable with and how you might rewrite it?
17:24:33 <Yves> jar: the idea that the information is owned is not true
17:25:05 <masinter> jar: Could you ground this in a specific example
17:25:26 <Yves> jar: the internet archive changed its policy to care about robots.txt It was a disservice to the public, and they were not required by law
17:25:49 <Yves> not sure the report should go into arguments like that
17:25:59 <masinter> jar, where does the report get into something that it shouldn't?
17:26:02 <Yves> note that the internet archive is protected by library exemption
17:26:13 <masinter> zakim, unmute me
17:26:13 <Zakim> masinter should no longer be muted
17:27:00 <jar> Proxies should comply with instructions from origin servers that describe whether pages may be copied and transformed
17:27:30 <masinter> you don't think it is a best practice that proxies comply with instrucctions?
17:28:02 <masinter> under what circumstance is it not a 'best practice'?
17:28:22 <masinter> give an example, just one example, when it isn't a 'best practice'
17:28:48 <masinter> so if it is a caching proxy?
17:29:13 <masinter> proxies that are advertised as to not transform content should not transform content?
17:31:39 <masinter> Jonathan, do you think the BPs are hopelessly unfixable?
17:32:29 <Yves> jar: not sure about the targeted audience of this document, so I'm confused by this
17:33:42 <masinter> I'm trying to distinguish between "I don't know who this is useful for?" and "I think the advice it gives is wrong and not fixable"
17:34:58 <masinter> I don't think "interesting" is a consensus opinion
17:36:55 <masinter> does anyone else have an opinion, 
17:37:02 <masinter> Peter, Yves?
17:38:28 <Yves> Yves: it would be good to stay strictly in the description of how linking work
17:38:36 <Yves> so getting rid of most of the BPs
17:39:10 <Yves> Peter: I thought we made the decision to do so, it seems that we are back again to mixing those
17:39:26 <masinter> cut away more of the policy
17:41:21 <Yves> ACTION: Larry and Ashok to remove the best practises parts of the P&L document
17:41:21 <trackbot> Created ACTION-731 - And Ashok to remove the best practises parts of the P&L document [on Larry Masinter - due 2012-08-09].
17:42:23 <masinter> I"m still unhappy with respec use in doc, and boilerplate
17:43:27 <masinter> we could add a reference to 'Tussle' in intro, too
17:43:37 <masinter> zakim, mute me
17:43:37 <Zakim> masinter should now be muted
17:44:10 <Yves> Ashok: it there a way for people to forbid linking?
17:44:13 <masinter> temporary URLs, or content in scripting
17:44:19 <Yves> jar: yes, don't provide a URL
17:44:36 <masinter> should we talk about those things in this document?
17:44:58 <masinter> ways in which people circumvent ability to deep link?
17:46:16 <masinter> feedback from wendy and thomas were to reference Tussle
17:46:32 <masinter> zakim, unmute me
17:46:32 <Zakim> masinter should no longer be muted
17:46:37 <Yves> jar: the general question is "do you want a legal tool when there are legal tools to do what you want to achieve" (forbiding linking)
17:53:10 <masinter> on IETF review
17:55:06 <masinter> action-679?
17:55:06 <trackbot> ACTION-679 -- Yves Lafon to check how Appcache should fit into Ashok's storage document -- due 2012-05-01 -- OPEN
17:55:06 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/679
17:55:39 <Ashok> s/legal tools/technical tools/
17:55:42 <masinter> Yves and Robin convinced Ashok Appcache is not part of local storage
17:56:02 <masinter> close action-679
17:56:02 <trackbot> ACTION-679 check how Appcache should fit into Ashok's storage document closed
17:56:25 <masinter> action-404?
17:56:25 <trackbot> ACTION-404 -- Yves Lafon to track HTML WG ISSUE-27 rel-ownership -- due 2012-06-05 -- OPEN
17:56:25 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/404
17:56:34 <masinter> should postpone
17:56:53 <masinter> action-404 due in 2 months?
17:56:53 <trackbot> ACTION-404 Track HTML WG ISSUE-27 rel-ownership due date now in 2 months?
17:57:42 <masinter> action-659?
17:57:42 <trackbot> ACTION-659 -- Yves Lafon to track IETF efforts on HTTP 2.0 & SPDY -- due 2012-07-31 -- OPEN
17:57:42 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/659
17:58:09 <masinter> action-659 due 2012-08-05
17:58:09 <trackbot> ACTION-659 Track IETF efforts on HTTP 2.0 & SPDY due date now 2012-08-05
17:58:24 <masinter> action-617?
17:58:24 <trackbot> ACTION-617 -- Yves Lafon to work with Noah to take http://www.w3.org/TR/2006/WD-namespaceState-20060329/ off the Rec track -- due 2012-06-01 -- OPEN
17:58:24 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/617
18:00:13 <masinter> peter closed some and changed dates on others
18:00:23 <masinter> action-712?
18:00:23 <trackbot> ACTION-712 -- Peter Linss to help us decide whether to have F2F session on i18n and comparison Due 2012-05-29 -- due 2012-05-31 -- CLOSED
18:00:23 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/712
18:00:30 <masinter> action-606?
18:00:30 <trackbot> ACTION-606 -- Peter Linss to invite I18N and other concerned groups to provide written technical input as prep to discussion with the TAG regarding unicode normalization -- due 2012-06-12 -- OPEN
18:00:30 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/606
18:01:21 <masinter> i've heard from Addison recently
18:01:33 <masinter> action-727?
18:01:33 <trackbot> ACTION-727 -- Ashok Malhotra to with help from JAR and Larry to work on a plan for taking a slightly stronger version of the Copyright and Linking draft forward -- due 2012-07-17 -- OPEN
18:01:33 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/727
18:01:48 <masinter> this is overtaken, we should close it
18:01:57 <masinter> close action-727
18:01:57 <trackbot> ACTION-727 With help from JAR and Larry to work on a plan for taking a slightly stronger version of the Copyright and Linking draft forward closed
18:02:09 <masinter> action-717?
18:02:09 <trackbot> ACTION-717 -- Ashok Malhotra to propose outline for possible TAG document (finding or rec) on architectural issues relating to storage sync, linked data, etc. Due 2012-07-15 -- due 2012-06-20 -- OPEN
18:02:09 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/717
18:02:51 <masinter> action-717 due 2012-09-01
18:02:51 <trackbot> ACTION-717 Propose outline for possible TAG document (finding or rec) on architectural issues relating to storage sync, linked data, etc. Due 2012-07-15 due date now 2012-09-01
18:03:20 <masinter> action-719?
18:03:20 <trackbot> ACTION-719 -- Larry Masinter to reply to Hannes pointing to the minutes, summarizing the discussion, and asking him if he has any more specific questions. -- due 2012-06-20 -- OPEN
18:03:20 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/719
18:03:46 <masinter> i talked to hannes Tuesday night; he said he would get back to us
18:05:07 <masinter> action-722?
18:05:07 <trackbot> ACTION-722 -- Jonathan Rees to review 'publishing and linking' due -- due 2012-08-06 -- OPEN
18:05:07 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/722
18:05:23 <masinter> action-722 due in 1 week
18:05:23 <trackbot> ACTION-722 Review 'publishing and linking' due due date now in 1 week
18:05:41 <masinter> zakim, mute me
18:05:41 <Zakim> masinter should now be muted
18:06:13 <masinter> review it after there's a new version of it
18:06:58 <masinter> i think JAR says he'll review P&L after Ashok & Larry update it this week
18:07:20 <masinter> Ashok, you and I are meeting monday to update P&L, and JAR should review after it
18:08:00 <masinter> Ashok, i'll make a pass on cutting out the BPs if you like
18:08:08 <masinter> zakim, unmute me
18:08:08 <Zakim> masinter should no longer be muted
18:08:10 <jar> Instead of this action I propose looking at the Tussle paper first
18:08:30 <masinter> close action-722
18:08:30 <trackbot> ACTION-722 Review 'publishing and linking' due closed
18:08:41 <masinter> action-726?
18:08:41 <trackbot> ACTION-726 -- Jonathan Rees to make a list of questions to which webarch and the findings suggest answers to, as input to possible 'study design' and/or communication to chairs etc. -- due 2012-08-14 -- OPEN
18:08:41 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/726
18:09:32 <masinter> action-728?
18:09:32 <trackbot> ACTION-728 -- Noah Mendelsohn to find editor for copyright and linking after group reviews Ashok's proposals on stronger messages -- due 2012-07-12 -- OPEN
18:09:32 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/728
18:09:47 <masinter> close action-728
18:09:47 <trackbot> ACTION-728 find editor for copyright and linking after group reviews Ashok's proposals on stronger messages closed
18:10:29 <masinter> action-707?
18:10:29 <trackbot> ACTION-707 -- Henry Thompson to keep an eye on http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-ietf-appsawg-media-type-suffix-regs-00.txt and relation to RFC 3023bis -- due 2012-06-05 -- OPEN
18:10:29 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/707
18:10:51 <masinter> there's news on this, this week, on the mailing list
18:11:01 <masinter> action-635?
18:11:01 <trackbot> ACTION-635 -- Henry Thompson to update product page for Frag IDS and Mime types, to include realistic goals and dates -- due 2012-06-01 -- OPEN
18:11:01 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/635
18:11:18 <masinter> the product page  is ok but the link from the TAG products overview is wrong
18:11:33 <masinter> any other items?
18:11:38 <Yves> AOB?
18:11:39 <masinter> otherwise i propose we adjourn
18:11:59 <Yves> ADJOURNED
18:12:04 <Yves> thank you Larry for chairing
18:12:04 <Zakim> -Ashok_Malhotra
18:12:10 <Zakim> -Yves
18:12:12 <Zakim> -Jonathan_Rees
18:12:33 <Zakim> -masinter
18:12:35 <Zakim> -plinss
18:12:36 <Zakim> TAG_Weekly()1:00PM has ended
18:12:36 <Zakim> Attendees were masinter, Jonathan_Rees, Ashok_Malhotra, Yves, plinss
18:12:45 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/08/02-tagmem-minutes.html Yves