See also: IRC log
nm: no call next week or week after
... regrets from tbl for following three weeks
... next meeting on 14-jul
... scribe Yves
yl: can do
nm: approve minutes of prior meetings
<noah> RESOLUTION: Minutes of 6-8 June 2011 F2F are approved http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2011/06/06-agenda
<noah> Minutes of 16 June: http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2011/06/16-minutes
<noah> RESOLUTION: Minutes of 16 June 2011 are approved http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2011/06/16-minutes
nm: any other urgent matters?
<Ashok> http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-hammer-hostmeta/?include_text=1
nm: any open actions that cover this?
<noah> NM: Any open actions on this?
<noah> AM: No, we looked at earlier drafts.
nm: can you take an action to read and summarize?
<jrees> Sandro dislikes host meta... More later
am: sure
... jar are you interested in this?
<jrees> Muted
<noah> ACTION: Ashok to review http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-hammer-hostmeta/?include_text=1 in preparation for TAG review Due 2011-07-12 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/06/23-tagmem-irc]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-574 - Review http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-hammer-hostmeta/?include_text=1 in preparation for TAG review Due 2011-07-12 [on Ashok Malhotra - due 2011-06-30].
<noah> Latest draft from Jeni: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/tag/2011Jun/0082.html
nm: there's been discussion since then
<noah> Summary of things to cover today: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/tag/2011Jun/0089.html
nm: I wrote a summary email
ht: we're doing two things in this note, one raising the issue, two asking for a task force
... I think we should just make this note do two things
<noah> NM: My friendly ammendment is to make two notes, one addressed to HTML, and a smaller one to the W3C itself.
ht: sending to HTML to raise an issue, and sending to director to form task force
... more trouble than it's worth
<DKA> I think one note is better than two.
tbl: this is just a note, not a finding, doesn't have to be perfectly balanced, just to express concern
nm: the note should be explicit about serving those purposes
... any objections to Henry's proposal?
... Henry proposed a small wording clarification
ht: we request the director to set up a task force
tbl: anyone against?
<ht> Change "We suggest that the W3C sets up a task force." to "We request the Director to set up a task force. . ."
<DKA> Sounds good.
nm: no objections
... the proposal is that I will send this to the HTML working group and to the director
... anyone else to send this to?
jt: RDFa working group
nm: the spec we're commenting on is HTML and RDFa in HTML, correct?
jt: I thought it was jointly owned by HTML and RDFa
nm: I believe I saw this (rdfa+html) as HTML last call materials
<noah> NM: I'm specifically asking which WG is responsible for the RDFa + HTML specification.
jt: it says, "it has been jointly developed by HTML and RDFa, but published by HTML"
<noah> Propose: To Tim, public-html, public-html-comments, www-tag, RDFa working group
<noah> Propose: To Tim, public-html, public-html-comments, www-tag, public-rdfa-wg@w3.org
<noah> PROPOSAL: The TAG resolves that Noah send http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/tag/2011Jun/0082.html, revised with Henry's proposed change, to open issues against the HTML last call drafts
<noah> PROPOSAL: The TAG resolves that Noah send http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/tag/2011Jun/0082.html, revised with Henry's proposed change, to open issues against the HTML last call drafts and to ask the director to create a task force
<noah> RESOLVED: The TAG resolves that Noah send http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/tag/2011Jun/0082.html, revised with Henry's proposed change, to open issues against the HTML last call drafts and to ask the director to create a task force
<noah> ACTION: Noah to send http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/tag/2011Jun/0082.html as edited Due 2011-06-24 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/06/23-tagmem-irc]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-575 - Send http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/tag/2011Jun/0082.html as edited Due 2011-06-24 [on Noah Mendelsohn - due 2011-06-30].
nm: anything else to do regarding microdata and RDFa today?
... thank you Jeni
<noah> ACTION-571?
<trackbot> ACTION-571 -- Jeni Tennison to write up comments on microdata and RDFa -- due 2011-06-16 -- OPEN
<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/571
<noah> close ACTION-571
<trackbot> ACTION-571 Write up comments on microdata and RDFa closed
<noah> NM: Grateful thanks to Jeni for a difficult task well done.
ht: there are three parts to this
... we had a long history of discussing 3023bis in the area of th +xml media types and the idea of generic processing
... we made a recommendation, but people pushed back
... no new draft of 3023bis
<JeniT> I have an action to write a document on fragids & what we should do with 3023bis
<ht> http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2011/06/07-minutes.html#item01
tbl: my memory of where we got to is the problem is whether frag ids should be used at the low level or high level
... should the two levels be broken out explicitly?
<jrees> T
<JeniT> ACTION-567?
<trackbot> ACTION-567 -- Jeni Tennison to draft a document describing problems around fragids and ways things should be changed -- due 2011-06-28 -- OPEN
<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/567
ht: we also talked about the possibility of non overlapping fragment syntaxes
... for areas where there was potential for level crossing confusion
<noah> ACTION-509?
<trackbot> ACTION-509 -- Jonathan Rees to communicate with RDFa WG regarding documenting the fragid / media type issue -- due 2011-06-15 -- OPEN
<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/509
<noah> ACTION-543?
<trackbot> ACTION-543 -- Jeni Tennison to propose addition to MIME/Web draft to discuss sem-web use of fragids not grounded in media type -- due 2011-06-15 -- OPEN
<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/543
ht: I think there are outstanding issues with frag ids we should settle within the tag before putting pressure outside
nm: my recollection is that norm wanted any document in +xml to be able to do generic frag id per 3032bis
<jar> and they wanted errors to be detected too yes? or was that just our interpretation?
tbl: suppose somebody else want to invent a new language using xml, say a programming language, whose use of IDs doesn't correspond to xml elments, should they not use xml or not use overlapping frag id syntax?
nm: one choice is to not name your media type +xml
<Zakim> ht, you wanted to note that XML Schema has exactly the property that TimBL just mentioned
nm: that means the bare names get owned by 3023bis and you need something more complicated for higer level references
ht: there is an example of this for complex type definitions wrt xpointer
<JeniT> just like SVG does
ht: within that something close to a bare name means the top level thing with this name, but it does require more typing than just # type name
<noah> NM: Actually, what I said was: "if you use non +xml media types, you own everything; if you do use application/mylang+xml, then ids must be disjoint from IDs that resolve to elements per XPointer, and that I think means barenames aren't available to reference the higher level abstractions"
<ht> So XML Schema Component Designators [scd ref] defines an XPOinter scheme
<ht> ... Which allows you to say, roughly #scd(complexType,foo)
<ht> ... to identify the Complex Type whose name is foo
<ht> That's distinct from the XML element which notates that definition
<ht> ... which you might get with #foo and a generic processor
<ht> ... The SCD spec doesn't give _any_ semantics to barenames
<JeniT> scd() doesn't appear in the registry of XPointer schemes http://www.w3.org/2005/04/xpointer-schemes/
<ht> ... Hasn't been registered yet -- not sure how it's spelled in any case
<jar> We could say RDFa Core used only in non-+xml media types
<ht> s/[scd ref]/http://www.w3.org/TR/xmlschema-ref//
tbl: for rdf to use xpointer is intolerable, you want to use bare names
<timbl> I thought we had got to a point where we were grandfathering application/rdf+xml
<noah> me too, Tim.
<jar> ht: don't step on others' toes might be good advice going forward, but it doesn't address existing cases (RDF, RDFa)
<jar> New info since Dec is RDFa Core
<noah> HT: Should we endorse the two level approach for future languages, I.e. barenames for XML references, something disjoint for higher level abstraction references.
nm: I thought the xpointer framework said this is an extensible framework
<JeniT> "An XPointer processor takes as input an XML resource and a string to be used as a pointer (for example, a fragment identifier, with escaping reversed, taken from the URI reference that was used to access the resource), attempts to evaluate the pointer with respect to the resource, and produces as output an identification of subresources, or one or more errors."
<Zakim> jar, you wanted to say RDFa Core is new information
nm: I'm happy with what Henry found
jar: the new information here is rdfa-core
... it's a mixin for any kind of document
... what can we say about media types in which rdfa-core is server under?
<ht> Here's another quote from XPointer Framework spec (http://www.w3.org/TR/xptr-framework/): "XPointer processor: A software component that identifies subresources of an XML resource by applying a pointer to it."
jar: maybe it shouldn't be under xml media type
ht: rdfa-core conflicts with any media type registration
jar: their argument is that 3023 doesn't say much about frag ids
ht: the media type system is broken in terms of nested fragments, it doesn't manage mixed documents well
... RDFa is a particular form of that in that it's designed to be embedded in many types of documents
<jar> RDFa core could also say 3023 is irrelevant...
nm: I think I'm hearing we're butting up against wanting media type to have features it doesn't have
<Yves> once again, compound documents and media types is not a good match, pretty much like html+js where fragments are used as js state
<Yves> but that's different than the SVG case (without scripting)
<jar> <foo id="bar" about="#bar"/>
<jar> that's the example
<JeniT> ACTION-567?
<trackbot> ACTION-567 -- Jeni Tennison to draft a document describing problems around fragids and ways things should be changed -- due 2011-06-28 -- OPEN
<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/567
<noah> . ACTION: Jonathan with help from Henry to figure out impact of RDFa core on generic fragids story, especially in 3023bis Due 2011-7-12
<jar> bar means an element according to xpointer, but a drinking establishment according to RDFa core
<noah> ACTION: Jonathan with help from Henry to figure out impact of RDFa core on generic fragids story, especially in 3023bis Due 2011-7-12 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/06/23-tagmem-irc]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-576 - With help from Henry to figure out impact of RDFa core on generic fragids story, especially in 3023bis Due 2011-7-12 [on Jonathan Rees - due 2011-06-30].
ht: I'd like the two other bullet items scheduled for later
<noah> ACTION: Noah to schedule 3023bis discussion of processor profiles and "IRIbis and HTML5", leftover from 23 June discussion, when Larry is available DueL 2011-07-12 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/06/23-tagmem-irc]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-577 - Schedule 3023bis discussion of processor profiles and "IRIbis and HTML5", leftover from 23 June discussion, when Larry is available DueL 2011-07-12 [on Noah Mendelsohn - due 2011-06-30].
<timbl> Norm?
<noah> Never mind Norm, we're done.
am: what's the question here?
<Norm> Sorry, timbl. If you change your mind, I'm around, though I'm on another call for a few minutes right now
nm: review the w3c workshop report focusing on do not track
<noah> NM: See agenda http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2011/06/23-agenda#privacy
am: there was a request form Larry to list the architectural questions
<noah> AM: Prefer to leave this discussion until Larry is here and I'm better prepared.
am: I'd rather wait for Larry
nm: ok
<ht> http://cacm.acm.org/magazines/2011/6/108645-identity-management-and-privacy
ht: the us dept of commerce has a privacy initiative they're pushing hard
<ht> NSTIC : National Strategy for Trusted Identities in Cyberspace
am: this is completely new
nm: those pending review...
<noah> ACTION-33?
<trackbot> ACTION-33 -- Henry Thompson to revise naming challenges story in response to Dec 2008 F2F discussion -- due 2011-06-06 -- OPEN
<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/33
<noah> ACTION-562?
<trackbot> ACTION-562 -- Henry Thompson to organize F2F session on IRIbis and 3023bis -- due 2011-06-02 -- OPEN
<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/562
<noah> close ACTION-562
<trackbot> ACTION-562 Organize F2F session on IRIbis and 3023bis closed
ht: I'd rather takes these offline
<noah> http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/pendingreview
<noah> ACTION-516?
<trackbot> ACTION-516 -- Noah Mendelsohn to talk with Thomas Roessler about organizing W3C architecture work on security -- due 2011-05-17 -- PENDINGREVIEW
<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/516
nm: I've sent him notes every month or two, not gotten an answer
... I'm re-opening this one
jar: is there anyone else to talk to to escalate this?
nm: I'm assigning 516 to Yves
<noah> ACTION-516?
<trackbot> ACTION-516 -- Yves Lafon to talk with Thomas Roessler about organizing W3C architecture work on security -- due 2011-07-19 -- OPEN
<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/516
<noah> ACTION-522?
<trackbot> ACTION-522 -- Noah Mendelsohn to build Tracker product page for HTML/XML Unification -- due 2011-05-17 -- PENDINGREVIEW
<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/522
<noah> http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/products/htmlxmlunification
<noah> close ACTION-516?
<noah> ACTION-526?
<trackbot> ACTION-526 -- Noah Mendelsohn to do first draft product stuff for MIME and related core web mechanisms -- due 2011-05-17 -- PENDINGREVIEW
<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/526
<noah> http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/products/mimeweb.html
<noah> close 526
<noah> close ACTION-526
<trackbot> ACTION-526 Do first draft product stuff for MIME and related core web mechanisms closed
<noah> ACTION-546?
<trackbot> ACTION-546 -- Noah Mendelsohn to ask Jim Gettys about joining us for lunch at June F2F -- due 2011-05-31 -- PENDINGREVIEW
<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/546
<noah> close ACTION-546
<trackbot> ACTION-546 Ask Jim Gettys about joining us for lunch at June F2F closed
<noah> ACTION-548?
<trackbot> ACTION-548 -- Noah Mendelsohn to ask Norm about HTML/XML at June F2F -- due 2011-05-24 -- PENDINGREVIEW
<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/548
<noah> close ACTION-548
<trackbot> ACTION-548 Ask Norm about HTML/XML at June F2F closed
<noah> action-551?
<trackbot> ACTION-551 -- Noah Mendelsohn to create agenda for 6-8 June 2011 F2F [self-assigned] -- due 2011-05-24 -- PENDINGREVIEW
<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/551
<noah> close ACTION-551
<trackbot> ACTION-551 Create agenda for 6-8 June 2011 F2F [self-assigned] closed
<noah> ACTION-561?
<trackbot> ACTION-561 -- Noah Mendelsohn to ask Norm to tell us how much has changed on HTML/XML -- due 2011-06-02 -- PENDINGREVIEW
<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/561
<noah> close ACTION-561
<trackbot> ACTION-561 Ask Norm to tell us how much has changed on HTML/XML closed
<noah> ACTION: Noah to make sure HTML/XML work gets TAG review when ready Due: 2011-08-01 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/06/23-tagmem-irc]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-578 - Make sure HTML/XML work gets TAG review when ready Due: 2011-08-01 [on Noah Mendelsohn - due 2011-06-30].
<noah> close ACTION-522
<trackbot> ACTION-522 Build Tracker product page for HTML/XML Unification closed
<noah> http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/overdue?sort=owner
<noah> ACTION-514?
<trackbot> ACTION-514 -- Daniel Appelquist to draft finding on API minimization -- due 2011-06-03 -- OPEN
<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/514
<jar> ACTION: Jonathan to solicit review of issue-57 (definition discovery) document from readers of public-lod and/or semantic-web lists [self-assigned] [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/06/23-tagmem-irc]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-579 - Solicit review of issue-57 (definition discovery) document from readers of public-lod and/or semantic-web lists [self-assigned] [on Jonathan Rees - due 2011-06-30].
nm: just need to bump the date?
dka: yes, until a few days before the next call
<noah> ACTION-514 Due 2011-07-12
<trackbot> ACTION-514 Draft finding on API minimization due date now 2011-07-12
<noah> ACTION-480?
<trackbot> ACTION-480 -- Daniel Appelquist to draft overview document framing Web applications as opposed to traditional Web of documents -- due 2011-05-24 -- OPEN
<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/480
<noah> ACTION-544?
<trackbot> ACTION-544 -- Daniel Appelquist to propose TAG input, if any, to possible workshop on packaged Web apps -- due 2011-05-31 -- OPEN
<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/544
dka: 460 and 566 are redundant
<noah> ACTION-460 is redundant with 566, but TLR says Alissa cooper may not be the right contact anyway.
<noah> close ACTION-460
<trackbot> ACTION-460 Coordinate with IAB regarding next steps on privacy policy closed
<noah> http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/overdue?sort=owner
<noah> ACTION-544?
<trackbot> ACTION-544 -- Daniel Appelquist to propose TAG input, if any, to possible workshop on packaged Web apps -- due 2011-05-31 -- OPEN
<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/544
dka: I'm working on this one, TPAC week would be good for this
<DKA> http://www.brucelawson.co.uk/2011/installable-web-apps-and-interoperability/
dka: I'm hoping to get people from Chrome, Mozilla, Adobe, and HP (WebOS)
<noah> ACTION-544 Due 2011-08-01
<trackbot> ACTION-544 Propose TAG input, if any, to possible workshop on packaged Web apps due date now 2011-08-01
<noah> ACTION-437?
<trackbot> ACTION-437 -- Tim Berners-Lee to create a task force on XML / HTML convergence -- due 2011-06-01 -- OPEN
<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/437
<noah> close ACTION-437
<trackbot> ACTION-437 Create a task force on XML / HTML convergence closed
<noah> ACTION-510?
<trackbot> ACTION-510 -- Tim Berners-Lee to write a note conveying the TAG's concerns re: the microdata -> RDF URI mappings in the HTML5 microdata draft Due: 2011-01-20 -- due 2011-04-26 -- OPEN
<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/510
<jar> Tim sent email, and the HTML editor replied
<jar> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2011Apr/0057.html
<jar> May 20
<timbl> message:%3C3D3DBBA0-0F94-438D-AC23-EF1EC84E182F@w3.org%3E
<noah> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2011May/0062.html
<jar> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2011May/0336.html
<timbl> mid:3D3DBBA0-0F94-438D-AC23-EF1EC84E182F@w3.org
<jar> responses from aryeh, maciej, ian, julian
<JeniT> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2011May/0364.html
<noah> ACTION: Noah to schedule discussion of resonses to TAG concerns expressed under ACTION-510, e.g. http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2011May/0364.html [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/06/23-tagmem-irc]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-580 - Schedule discussion of resonses to TAG concerns expressed under ACTION-510, e.g. http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2011May/0364.html [on Noah Mendelsohn - due 2011-06-30].
<noah> ACTION-580 Due 2011-07-12
<trackbot> ACTION-580 Schedule discussion of resonses to TAG concerns expressed under ACTION-510, e.g. http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2011May/0364.html due date now 2011-07-12
<noah> close ACTION-510
<trackbot> ACTION-510 Write a note conveying the TAG's concerns re: the microdata -> RDF URI mappings in the HTML5 microdata draft Due: 2011-01-20 closed
nm: meeting adjourned