See also: IRC log
<h1> IRC log of tagmem on 2005-02-28</h1>
<p> <em>Timestamps are in UTC.</em></p>
Date: 28 Feb 2005
<DanC_lap> Agenda: <a href="http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2005/02/28-agenda.html">http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2005/02/28-agenda.html</a>
<DanC_> Chair: Vincent
<DanC_> Scribe: Norm
<DanC_> (HT is hobbled; laptop broke; envious of timbl's ski tags)
<dorchard> (razzes HT about possessing computing)
<DanC_> VQ reviews agenda...
<DanC_> agenda is OK
<DanC_> RESOLVED to accept them as a true record
<DanC_> VQ: next meeting 8 March.
<DanC_> Regrets DanC, HT. DO at risk
<DanC_> Regrets DanC, HT, VQ. DO at risk
<DanC_> NDW to chair
<DanC_> Ed to scribe 8 Mar
<DanC_> -> <a href="http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2005/01/TechnicalPlenaryLiaisons.html">http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2005/01/TechnicalPlenaryLiaisons.html</a> Tentative TAG Liaison Meeting Schedule
<DanC_> Revision 1.30 2005/02/28 01:38:08
<DanC_> VQ: all joint meetings are in the other group's room
Plan to discuss web services endpoints and URIs w/WS WG
Plan to meet with Compound Documents Format WG
Discuss: mixed namespace documents
Plan to meet with XML Core WG on Thur
Discuss: future of XML/xml:id and C14N/xmlChunk-44
DanC: agenda request to discuss binary XML
Plan to meet with Voice Browser and Schema on Thur afternoon
Face-to-face meeting planning:
8-10 June in/near Cannes, FR
W3C Team in Sophia is offering to organize the meeting as expected
The location they propose is at Inria in Sophia
Henry offers 8-10 June in Edinburgh
TimBL sends regrets, plans to participate by phone
<timbl> By videophone.
<timbl> I meant.
<timbl> DC, DO, VQ, NM, ER france
<timbl> TBL abstains
We will meet in/near Cannes for the June meeting
20-22 Sep in Kansas City
Hosted by DanC
Discussion of Edinburgh in Sep
20-22 Sep in Edinburgh?, something with the AC?, KC in early 2006?
We will meet in Edinburgh, 20-22 Sep 2005
VQ proposes to take the discussion offline with a few volunteers
IJ was taking minutes and keeping the list up-to-date, we're not doing as good a job
PC notes that the fact that the issue pointed back to the minutes where it was last discussed was a huge value add
VQ asks for volunteers: ER, SW, IJ, and VQ.
VQ will organize and get a proposal for the next telcon
Noah reports the time is 7:30p at a restaurant in the North End
Noah will try to move it earlier and report back
CL notes that we're delinquent
PC reminds us that IJ used to do this
<noah> Amy is not on IRC at the moment, will try to reach her later.
It is useful to get a report out in advance of the AC meetings
<scribe> ACTION: SW volunteers to draft a report for this quarter [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/02/28-tagmem-irc /tmp/28-tagmem-irc]
CL sent some mail:
<DanC_> -> <a href="http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/webarch/errata.html">http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/webarch/errata.html</a> webarch errata
Norm notes that this is comment is similar to one from Mark Baker
HT summarizes the meaning of an erratum
NW offers to construct an erratum page
<scribe> ACTION: NW offers to construct an erratum page [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/02/28-tagmem-irc /tmp/28-tagmem-irc]
<DanC_> construct an ereratum page? it's already there.
<DanC_> I'd like NDW to ack the problem report on the errata page
<scribe> ACTION: NW to frame the erratum as proposed by CL as an entry for the erratum page [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/02/28-tagmem-irc /tmp/28-tagmem-irc]
<DanC_> RESOLVED: to adopt erratum proposed by CL in <a href="http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2005Feb/0188.html">http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2005Feb/0188.html</a>
VQ asks CL, PC, and SW if they could in the next few days summarize the items that they are still working on for the TAG
<scribe> ACTION: CL to send a summary of the items he "owns" [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/02/28-tagmem-irc /tmp/28-tagmem-irc]
<scribe> ACTION: SW to send a summary of the items he "owns" [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/02/28-tagmem-irc /tmp/28-tagmem-irc]
<scribe> ACTION: PC to send a summary of the items he "owns" [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/02/28-tagmem-irc /tmp/28-tagmem-irc]
VQ asks if we have plans for a second volume
DanC suggests educational material
DanC also suggests that extensibility and versioning would be a good second volume
Noah asks about WWW 2005
VQ observes that there is a W3C track at the conference
<Chris> re: erratum, sent to public-webarch-comments. <a href="http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webarch-comments/2005JanMar/0001.html">http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webarch-comments/2005JanMar/0001.html</a>
<DanC_> (hmm... talking about WWW2005 seems in order during "new directions"... table it in favor of what, I wonder?)
PC: when we triaged the issues list for V1, we explicitly excluded some issues, it would make sense to look at all the issues we didn't want to do for V1
dorchard: I support E&V, but there's an
architecture piece we haven't talked about: XML Architecture
... xml:id, binary XML, XML Chunk, these all feel like questions about XML at the border but I think that there's the question of XML going forward
... I think that it would be fruitful for the TAG to look at this issue
SW asks if XML Core or XML CG does hits
DO observes that there's a constallation of XML-related WGs and it seems to me that the CG was more of a coordination body not a technical coordinator. More process than technical.
timbl: a lot of the things we've been patching
up are related to these areas on the borders
... I think we'll be working on XML as part of our broader scope
... One possibility is to try to do a more formal system to describe some of the things that we've been saying
... Another possibility is to try to tackle Web Services, SemWeb, web applications
... Web applications is a huge new architectural issue and maybe we could try to do some more timely work
DanC: I'm interested to do web applications, but I'm not sure how. It'd be interesting to have someone come and present "GMail" to us. Some education from experts would be useful.
<Zakim> timbl, you wanted to mention 1) making a more formal description to exiting areas as one direction and 2) going into areas which we excluded, such as web services, semantic web,
noah: I agree with a lot of what TimBL said, but I think we need to put some effort into making sure the web stays a current platform
<Zakim> noah, you wanted to say that we have probably missed some particulars that are close to scope of AWWW vol 1
noah: I think we should be asking ourselves
which problems the web should be solving over the next few years and if the
architectural pieces we have available are the right ones
... In the completely opposite direction there are some things that we didn't put in V1 thatcould have gone in V1 and we should be willing to tackle those as well.
... I think we shouldn't narrow this too much right away, we should give ourselves a license to noodle around in these spaces for a few months to see which ones we might be good at
dorchard: Is there an intermediate ground in
the formalism space?
... I did try to put some more formal models in some of the findings I worked on
DO mentioned UML and TimBL expresses that he thinks a UML model is mathematical
DanC: I'd like to finish some of that stuff
dorchard: I wanted some of these models in V1 and we decided not to do that. But maybe we could do it as an add-on
DanC discusses his ideas for "tip of the day" on the W3C validator page
VQ notes that he's been asked several times for educational materials. Teachers like the WebArch document.
<DanC_> (tip of the day was an idea a long time ago; it's in production now)
VQ asks if we have enough resources to develop teaching materials
<DanC_> (ooh... interesting, timbl... bounties for what we want)
TimBL asks if we couldn't ask the public for some things that we'd like to see: an elementary-school level of webarch, etc.
ER there's two topics: current and future so should we have to addresses?
<DanC_> -> <a href="http://www.ubuntulinux.org/community/bounties/document_view">http://www.ubuntulinux.org/community/bounties/document_view</a> ubuntu bounties
<DanC_> "The 2004 budget for bounties is USD 100,000."
HT seconds DanC's suggestion: you write a good webarch educational document and we'll link to it from our home page
Noah asks if we're offering to link to just a few things or to everything
DanC volunteers to act as editor for educational materials
There will need to be some decisions about how the licensing works
<DanC_> ACTION: DanC to make an "educational materials" page, describe what we're interested in, and set expectations [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/02/28-tagmem-irc /tmp/28-tagmem-irc]
Observer Jacek Kopecky expresses interet and wonders if it shouldn't apply to the whole W3C suite of technologies
<DanC_> ACTION: DanC to let QA and w3t-comm know about TAG's educational materials ideas and relay JK's note about coordiated materials [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/02/28-tagmem-irc /tmp/28-tagmem-irc]
VQ summarizes: I think we have a consensus that we should spend some time on that and precisely to make a first step in that direction by doing an experiment as described above. We should announce that on www-tag and suggest using that mailing list as a way to submit material to us.
HT: TimBL mentioned some things about
formalizing which connects up with discussions that occurred just before
publication. There was an implication that some things would be on the table
wrt httpRange-14. That issue ties together a lot of issues. I'd like us to do
some more work on that.
... In the next couple of days HT (and colleagues) will be proposing a workshop at the SemWeb conference in Galway in Nov(?)
<DanC_> Galway, Ireland
SW: There are some large issues that it's disappointing to leave unfinished
Noah suggests that we could write a document that actually lays out the boundaries of the question
noah: set expectations that we're not going to expect everyone to read all the traffic on the issue, that we're going to start by trying to net the problem out
<DanC_> -> <a href="http://www.w3.org/TR/2005/WD-xbc-use-cases-20050224/">http://www.w3.org/TR/2005/WD-xbc-use-cases-20050224/</a> XML Binary Characterization Use Cases
They think they're done
DanC should I pursue my concerns here or elsewhere:
DanC has some concerns: I disagree with a lot of their use cases
DanC: I don't think they've articulated their case very successfully
DO concurs to review it
PC suggests we start with CL's original summary of the issue
<DanC_> rather: I *do* think they've articulated their use cases pretty well (and thanks for that! lots of WGs don't). But I am not convinced by the argument they make
<Chris> Standardize a "binary XML" format?
<Chris> I sent in a summary, earlier on. The ball has passed to the XBC WG, I do
<Chris> not consider myself to be critical path on this one. XBC is nearly
<Chris> completed, TAG has said it will review their deliverables. I suggest
<Chris> inviting Robin Berjon to a TAG call to discuss this.
<Chris> the above email closes my action item
Noah notes that we should try to decide if we're going to try to get in the critical path of whether or not a new WG is spun up
dorchard: I think I would like the TAG to
review that material sooner rather than later. And as an AC rep, I would like
the TAGs review before I was asked to make a decision.
... We should say quite loudly that we plan on reviewing it
<Chris> future of xml - mention XBC
<noah> The TAG is chartered to document and build consensus around principles of Web architecture and to interpret and clarify these principles when necessary. The XML Binary Characterization Working Group consult with the Technical Architecture Group regarding the properties of XML and refer issues to the TAG when necessary. The Working Group is also expected to provide feedback regarding issue binaryXML-30.
<noah> Above is from charter of Binary characterization WG
Henry agrees to review the documents
<scribe> ACTION: HT to review the XBC documents with help from Noah [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/02/28-tagmem-irc /tmp/28-tagmem-irc]
<timbl> I note that the XML BCP does not contain "ASN"
DanC describes GRDDL
DanC describes how creative commons and open archives are working together to make this work
<Chris> DanC describes special XHTML 2 syntax for RDF
DanC notes some developments in XHTML 2.0 to deal with RDF
Norm gives Dan's rdxh/spec document a thumbs up
CL asks why you can't just read the RDF out of the XML
TimBL notes that it does get transformed, it strips out all the SVG
<noah> TimBl specifically noted that it's not in general safe to trust Tags such as <metadata> unless licensed by the specification for the language in which they appear. For example, you may have <dontTrustContents><metadata>....</metadata></dontTrustContents>
HT notes that this approach is different from the more general case of adding, for example, declarations to a schema
HT observes that you have to trust the XSLT
<Chris> Dan says that the 'yes believe the RDF here' attributes should be part of the standard library
<scribe> ACTION: DanC to continue working on this [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/02/28-tagmem-irc /tmp/28-tagmem-irc]
DanC: is WS-A using IRC?
How's it going?
Is there a two sentence summary?
<Vincent> Norm, what's the uri of the irc log of the Tag f2f?
<Vincent> Norm, I get a 403 Forbidden
<dorchard> Noah, TimBl here?
<noahf2fRoom> Noah's here
<noah> Hi tim
<noah> I think we agreed to assemble at 18:30 by main door of hotel to begin debate on whether to take Taxi or "T" :-)
<timbl> I'll drive anyway
<timbl> Do we have an address?
<noah> OK. Yes, it was in email from me when I announced it, but I'll get it for you in a minute. The simple answer is that it's just off Hanover St. in the North End, very near the end of Hanover St. that's by the big dig.
<noah> I'll get exact addresss.
<noah> Unfortunately, I have no clue on parking down there.
<noah> 3 Mechanic St.
<timbl> well done.
<noah> That's Ida's restaurant. Alan Kotok set it up with Amy.
<noah> More info in email at <a href="http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/tag/2005Feb/0042.html">http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/tag/2005Feb/0042.html</a>
<noah> And thank you.
<noah> Glad you're joining us.
<timbl> Oh yes, its very near public parking like Faneuil hall etc
<noah> See picture at: <a href="http://www.planet99.com/boston/restaurants/11639.htm">http://www.planet99.com/boston/restaurants/11639.htm</a>
<noah> I'm up in Henry's room (lending him my laptop). We're heading down now. See you at the restaurant.
<noah> over n out?
<timbl> I'm happy to take 2 people
<noah> OK, well as I say, they're all planning to assemble at front door for big debate on transport modes.
<noah> Feel free to join us for that. Dinner's not officially until 7:30, though walking in North End's surely as pleasant as being in the hotel.
<noah> Heading down now.