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Social Web Working Group Teleconference

23 May 2017

See also: IRC log


rhiaro, sandro, aaronpk, ben_thatmustbeme, cwebber, ajordan_, tantek
sandro, tantek
aaronpk, sandro


<sandro> KevinMarks, would you be able to join these telecons if they were two hours later?

<KevinMarks> Yes, usually. This time is usually good but I have a meeting scheduled for now

<ben_thatmustbeme> cannot talk, but can listen in

<ben_thatmustbeme> HOORAY REC for AS2 and Micropub!!

<sandro> KevinMarks, I thought you'd once said this time was bad for you. Anyway, we need to switch the time, and I'm hoping going back to old time is good for everyone

<rhiaro> Fine by me, I'm back in the northern hemisphere for the forseeable future

<ben_thatmustbeme> if i could speak, i would gladly guest chair, but alas, conference room is taken, so i'm just listening in

<ben_thatmustbeme> i believe evan gave regrets last week


<aaronpk> scribenick: aaronpk

<sandro> PROPOSED: approve


approval of last week's minutes

<sandro> PROPOSED: approve

<sandro> +1

<ben_thatmustbeme> and approval of minutes

<cwebber2> +1


<sandro> noting resolution to publish not properly formatted


<ben_thatmustbeme> +1 i will fix the minutes for noting resolutions

charter extension / recharter update

sandro: hopefully you all saw the email i sent

<Loqi> Sandro made 1 edit to Socialwg

sandro: I originally thought w3c management would just approve an extension. That didn't turn out to be the case, they want to ask the AC.
... the request to the AC went out on thursday


sandro: not much response yet, hopefully you all have a few people you can ask to vote
... we won't know for sure for 4 weeks when the vote ends

next telcon

sandro: next call is next week

<aaronpk> we had talked about switching to a new time

sandro: right. i'm hesitant to suggest a brand new time, but maybe we can propose to switch back to the old time

<sandro> PROPOSED: switch telecon time back to old time, two hours later than this

<ajordan_> +1

<sandro> +1

<cwebber2> +1

<rhiaro> +1

sandro: the motivation for this being that cwebber2 has a conflicting WG meeting at this time

<aaronpk> +1

<ben_thatmustbeme> +1

RESOLUTION: PENDING CONFIRMATION BY EVAN and TANTEK: switch telecon time back to old time, two hours later than this

<cwebber2> \o/

<sandro> meeting next week.

<Loqi> strugee: tantek left you a message 3 days, 23 hours ago: looks like you found your answer re: Google and microformats? They definitely still do parse microformats, question is where they are with parsing mf2, since they have unofficially made positive remarks about it for a few years, and may just be waiting for some measure of critical mass (which has accelerated in the past 2 years)

PR/REC status

sandro: AS2 and Micropub are recommendations as of this morning! congratulations to everyone!

<ben_thatmustbeme> *and there was much rejoicing*

sandro: thanks to amy for taking care of the publication process


sandro: i should know this, but did we publish the revised CR?

cwebber2: yep we did

sandro: chris, how's the test suite?

cwebber2: I ended up realizing there's another thing i needed to add to my implementation, the file upload process
... in order to do that i needed to release two libraries, the cryptography and web utilities

<rhiaro> cwebber - commander of yaks

cwebber2: since i made the mistake of using a very underused language for the basis of this whole thing

<ben_thatmustbeme> sandro, i fixed the minutes to properly not the resolutions

cwebber2: so things are moving along but i wish i could give a better update

sandro: is there anything anyone else can do to help you move the test suite along?

cwebber2: i'm not sure, i feel like i painted myself into a corner in terms of getting help

sandro: let me ask the hard management question. does it make sense to back out of the corner and do it a different way?

cwebber2: i don't know, why don't we approach this next week

sandro: what stack did you use for the test systems you built?

<aaronpk> a pretty simple PHP + MySQL stack

<scribe> chair: tantek

tantek: so the activitypub update is that we published a new CR?

sandro: yep

tantek: thanks chris for making that happen
... are there any new issues since the CR that you'd like to discuss chris?

<Loqi> Benthatmustbeme made 1 edit to Socialwg/2017-05-16-minutes

cwebber2: there is one thing, but i don't feel like w'ell have a useful conversation on the call about it today

tantek: that's fine, if you think you can prepare for a conversation next week, or even just resolve before next week that's great


<ben_thatmustbeme> I can

<sandro> scribenick: sandro

<ben_thatmustbeme> lol

<cwebber2> btw, the thing that ended up slowing things down for this week wasn't actually the test suite itself, but rather the actual implementattion I was testing against, so rewriting the test suite in another language, I still would have been slow even if that hadn't happened

tantek: test suite complete?

aaronpk: yes, and impl report live, and mine and julien's are in there
... need to do more outreach
... and we have a resoluton to publish update, which I haven't done
... a non-clock-restarting

sandro: I'm inclined to wait until near the end of June
... so we can incorporate editorial improvements

tantek: last date to PR

sandro: technically up through June 30
... we just have to vote to exit CR before the end of the charter

tantek: staff could make editorial changes
... Who has an impl and has not submitted impl report, any of the three parts

<ben_thatmustbeme> I was working on a new hub, but nowhere near done yet

tantek: just publish, just subscribe, just act as hub

<rhiaro> I'm here..

<tantek> rhiaro do you support WebSub on your site? E.g. publishing / posting notifications?

sandro: I wonder about divvying up the work of testing against existing implementations
... If none of these things pass the test suite we're going to have a moment

<rhiaro> Nope

<rhiaro> sorry

tantek: is there a way to test google's hub?
... As a publisher, it took me minutes to implement.
... If you're a publisher, please consider implementing it
... is there a swicg this week?

cwebber2: Yes, as soon as it's scheduled

tantek: let's bring it up there

sandro: we talked about it, but okay to do more

<ben_thatmustbeme> I am asking on general IRC chats now too

aaronpk: I see a bunch of folks have tried using the test suite, but not submitting reports

sandro: I don't suppose you can tell where in the funnel they're dropping out?

aaronpk: nope

tantek: Any specific big hubs we want tested? google? github?

sandro: github says PuSH compatible, but not sure

tantek: I'll ask Brett and Brad if they have a moment to try the test suite

<aaronpk> github docs:

tantek: anyone else?

sandro: maybe sleuth via libraries? mastodon, gnusocial

aaronpk: new issue, but no need to discuss

tantek: any sign of normative changes?

aaronpk: 410 GONE would be normative, if we decided to incorporate it
... reason to leave in CR


<Loqi> [Alkarex] #106 Suggestion: Use HTTP 410 Gone

sandro: how much would this break?

aaronpk: it's a new feature. if the subscriber returns 410 Gone, the hub should delete subscription. It wouldn't break anything, really?

sandro: any harm done?

aaronpk: We're in the sitation right now, if the sub is deleted, the hub keeps trying to deliver
... it's a little inefficient
... some are already doing it

sandro: anything saying you must ignore 410

aaronpk: no

sandro: it's kind of naturally a part of web architecure
... I think we could do this non-breaking

tantek: to me this feels like a new feature

sandro: somewhere between should and may

tantek: i'd like May
... Even a MAY is a new feature

aaronpk: We already had two independent subscribers implement this feature, on their own. And when we opened it, one of the hubs added support.
... seems like a good idea, all around.

tantek: Sandro, if you can make a case to the director, that this is just clarifying web architecture, then okay. Let's not restart clock.


tantek: I like that it's not a break change

<ben_thatmustbeme> I dropped link to in IRC for diaspora, friendica, hubzilla, indieweb, mastodon,, and gnusocial

<tantek> thank you ben_thatmustbeme !

PROPOSED: Adopt the option HTTP 410 Gone behavior in WebSub, if Director says we can do it without restarting CR clock

<ajordan> ben_thatmustbeme++

<Loqi> ben_thatmustbeme has 72 karma in this channel (223 overall)

<tantek> +1

<ajordan> +1

<aaronpk> +1


<rhiaro> +1

<cwebber2> +1

<ben_thatmustbeme> +1 /option/optional/

RESOLUTION: Adopt the optional HTTP 410 Gone behavior in WebSub, if Director says we can do it without restarting CR clock


tantek: no progress yet

<rhiaro> okie dokie!

Social Web Protocols

tantek: want to update it, Amy?

<rhiaro> We didn't do a blanket one

PROPOSED: Approve publication of new WD of social-web-protocols any time there's a status change of any of our other documents

<aaronpk> +1

<tantek> +1


<ajordan> +1

<rhiaro> +1

<cwebber2> +1

RESOLUTION: Approve publication of new WD of social-web-protocols any time there's a status change of any of our other documents


cwebber2: Not much to say. We had a good meeting last week.


<ben_thatmustbeme> +1 (late)

cwebber2: urgent to settle time. 22 votes on earlier poll, not so many yet on this one

wednesday much better for me

cwebber2: anyone have a strong preference between dates

11am ET Wed vs Noon Friday

sandro: still ten people who answered the previous

cwebber2: so this week, do we do Friday again, then decide then and there

tantek: wednesday has one more vote

cwebber2: but that's too soon

<ben_thatmustbeme> this friday was basically already scheduled, was it not?

cwebber2: current wiki page says based on results of poll

tantek: this all sounds okay, aaron and cwebber2

cwebber2: consider it resolved for Wednesday, skipping this week

<aaronpk> scribenick: aaronpk

sandro: this is CG issue 4 but affects our specs
... i was trying to convince w3c to let me install mastodon

<tantek> Issue 4?

sandro: they won't, becausse there's no way to follow their normal practice of gently sunsetting the service
... unless there's a way to move people off the service, they don't want to run the service
... if sites respect HTTP forwarding then we're all set, which is what i wrote up in issue 4
... so i'm trying to figure out what things support forwarding
... activitypub never mentions HTTP redirects. so you could say you would follow them or not

<rhiaro> hey hey!

<Loqi> 23 May 2017

<Loqi> “drawingThe JSON data model and vocabulary for representing common online social objects, activities, and the ...

sandro: websub does talk about it but i'm still not clear on how much you can get away with

<tantek> URL to issue?


<Loqi> [sandhawke] #4 Forwarding

ajordan: what we've done in the past is we didn't put anything in the spec about you MUST respect http caching headers, but we said something in the activitypub spec about this is http so caching should be respected
... so we could do the same for http redirects

cwebber2: if you don't respect http caching you might make things painful for people but things won't break. but redirects might break things if you don't add it
... it's probably a good idea, but i haven't thought through it all yet
... the main point where i started to get unsure which is where sandro was suggesting that to avoid it being unintentional that you have 30 days before you make it permanent, that seems like complicated code

oops wrong URL

<aaronpk> websub has tests for this, and some guidance for how to redirect

tantek: can we get our specs to support websub?

sandro: it would be easy to add rel=hub and have a notification go out to the hub
... politically, i'm not sure. maybe if there was some use for it, not just "that'd be cool"

tantek: the other place to consider would be the w3c news page


<tantek> and

<cwebber2> thanks o/

tantek: if there are no other issues we'll adjourn for the day

trackbot, end meeting

<cwebber2> aaronpk++

<Loqi> aaronpk has 81 karma in this channel (1322 overall)

Summary of Action Items

Summary of Resolutions

  1. approve
  2. PENDING CONFIRMATION BY EVAN and TANTEK: switch telecon time back to old time, two hours later than this
  3. Adopt the optional HTTP 410 Gone behavior in WebSub, if Director says we can do it without restarting CR clock
  4. Approve publication of new WD of social-web-protocols any time there's a status change of any of our other documents

[End of minutes]