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Social Web Working Group Teleconference

11 Aug 2015

See also: IRC log


aaronpk, jasnell, csarven, eprodrom, ben_thatmustbeme, sandro, tantek, melvster, Arnaud, kevinmarks


<trackbot> Date: 11 August 2015

<aaronpk> there we go

ha ha


<cwebber2> preset+ cwebber2

<cwebber2> can hear

I will scribe

<ben_thatmustbeme> I'll scribe

scribenick eprodrom

<Arnaud> Approval of Minutes of 28 July 2015

Arnaud: first, admin part


Arnaud: any objections to approving the minutes?

<jasnell> +1 to approving the minutes

<ben_thatmustbeme> i have

<csarven> I opened.

<ben_thatmustbeme> +1 to approve

I opened and read


RESOLUTION: Approval of Minutes of 28 July 2015

Next F2F meeting


Arnaud: sandro has suggested we need to discuss F2F
... next F2F is in October in Japan

<jasnell> I will not be attending TPAC.

Arnaud: it is normal to have events around the world for the W3C
... but it is a significant travel effort

<jasnell> I will attempt to join by phone similar to the Paris meeting

Arnaud: It is a chicken-and-egg issue

<sandro> jasnell, please say that on the wiki page

<cwebber2> it is possible, but unlikely, that I will go.

Arnaud: we're not asking for hard commitments but we're looking for some intentions
... it's better to have ideas of intentions rather than no idea at all
... TPAC requires registration
... so we have to do both (wiki and TPAC registration)

<melvster> FYI: at TPAC 2012, halloween (Oct 31) was an issue for some US folks with families ...

Arnaud: There is a cost associated with participating at TPAC (~$85/day)
... it includes a big conference experience (food, space, etc.)

<ben_thatmustbeme> $85 is if you get your tickets in before a certain date

<rhiaro> I will go if I can rustle up funding :)

Arnaud: and a good opportunity to cross-pollinate

<ben_thatmustbeme> it costs more if you register too late

<Loqi> Alehors made 2 edits to Socialwg/2015-10-29

<Loqi> Alehors made 1 edit to Socialwg/2015-08-11

<Loqi> Sandro made 3 edits to Socialwg/2015-10-29

<Loqi> Scapadis made 1 edit to Socialwg/2015-10-29

<Loqi> Eprodrom made 1 edit to Socialwg/2015-10-29

<sandro> melvster, it looks like it's feasible to get back in time, given Date Line

<tsyesika_> rhiaro: you having issues with hangouts or just not calling?

<Zakim> tantek, you wanted to note that last time we met at TPAC it was a VERY productive meeting.

tantek: We didn't get all meet in Paris, didn't get everyone in Cambridge

<rhiaro> tysesika_: in transit, not consistant phone signal to dial in

tantek: the last time we met at TPAC in Santa Clara, it was hugely successful
... we made a lot of progress
... we also had a lot of participation from TPAC attendees who wouldn't have come just for a Social Web meeting
... if there's one WG F2F, this is the one to make

<KevinMarks> where is TPAC this time?

<rhiaro> F2F in Paris was productive, too

<ben_thatmustbeme> KevinMarks, Sapporo JP

<KevinMarks> so $85 a day is trivial compared to travel then

<Arnaud> KevinMarks, indeed

<tantek> KevinMarks: see and yes, travel will be an expense, as it is for everyone else who traveled to Santa Clara who wasn't in the bay area

<KevinMarks> if I have an expense account for travel, I'll go… TPAC is very good

eprodrom: could we have better attendance in the USA around the same time period?

<ben_thatmustbeme> there are already people going to JP / have flights

<ben_thatmustbeme> so changing now would probably be bad

Arnaud: we have a commitment to do this
... we have an 8-week period required for any travel

<ben_thatmustbeme> I think AnnB has expressed her intention of going

<tantek> also if you're a maybe, please indicate what might help convince you to go

<tantek> but definitely add yourself anyway as a Maybe if that's what you are:

Arnaud: if there's a 90% chance you'll be there, please note it
... Ann has asked if people in the WG would meet with the IG in the same time period next week

Activity Streams 2.0

<cwebber2> it looks like it'll be $2k for the flights alone, not to mention other costs

<cwebber2> I can't make TPAC

Raised issues for AS 2.0

Arnaud: There are two issues that have been raised for AS 2.0
... one is related to microformats

<tantek> cwebber2, can you add yourself to ?

... it's understood that these examples are only informative, and there's an open action to fix them

<tantek> indeed, and ben_thatmustbeme continues to do work to fix more, and create pull requests accordingly. progress keeps being made.

<cwebber2> tantek: will do, thanks!

<tantek> I also see no reason to re-open the issue

<ben_thatmustbeme> rhiaro: has been working on a PR for more too

<Loqi> Eprodrom made 2 edits to Socialwg/2015-10-29

<Loqi> Sandro made 1 edit to Socialwg/2015-10-29

<Loqi> Rhiaro made 2 edits to Socialwg/2015-10-29

csarven: Previous resolutions were about trying to improve the state of microformats in the doc
... What made it into the document didn't reflect the action

<cwebber2> tantek: I can do remote participation though, so I'll add myself there!

csarven: The microformat examples are quite draft
... Whether the AS vocabulary should talk about any except AS is an question
... all the other examples are AS
... the microformats examples don't map closely

<csarven> ACTION-26

<trackbot> ACTION-26 -- Tantek Çelik to Review microformats examples in AS2.0 specs -- due 2015-03-17 -- CLOSED


Arnaud: The issue title and the problem are misaligned
... The issue is that there is a misalignment for the mf and AS 2.0 examples
... we should consider different solutions

<tantek> eprodrom: my understanding of why we have the microformats examples in the document, for those people that are familiar with microformats, they should be able to look at both microformats examples and AS2 other syntaxes, and then understand this is how I express this idiom in AS2

<tantek> eprodrom: I think that is a good purpose

<tantek> eprodrom: there are two downsides to it, if we don't have up to date microformats examples, it may be counter productive

<tantek> eprodrom: the other is that they do not map 1:1

<tantek> eprodrom: I wonder if there is a way for us to solve this problem, by taking the microformats examples out to an external note or extra support. the other thing is more work on the microformats examples.

tantek, thanks

<KevinMarks> are the other examples any better?

<Zakim> ben_thatmustbeme, you wanted to discuss ISSUE-45 to try to bring up misaligned MF2

<tantek> eprodrom: I'm not sure we have the organizational will to get the microformats examples up to snuff to make it worthwhile

<tantek> Issue 45

<tantek> issue-45

<trackbot> issue-45 -- Conflicts between json-ld and mf2 examples -- raised


<csarven> KevinMarks Yes, JSON-LD, Turtle, RDFa are interchangeable. I havan't looked at Microdata

ben_thatmustbeme: when I updated the examples, I was putting in the best practices for the community at large right now

<KevinMarks> they are in principle interchangeable; are they in practice?

<csarven> KevinMarks Visit my site.

<KevinMarks> have you parsed them all into a uniform form and compared them?

<csarven> Yes.

<csarven> You should too

<KevinMarks> (the ones in the document)

<csarven> Have you did that for microformats?

ben_thatmustbeme: do the align completely? No. But that's not the purpose.

<csarven> Have you seen the state of mf? Compare that to the rest.

Arnaud: ben_thatmustbeme touched on issue 45.
... let's close issue 44 in favour of issue 45

<csarven> mf examples would not be ready for CR

Arnaud: one possibility is that we remove the examples

<csarven> Has to go through the mf process.

<tantek> csarven: examples don't block CR - they are informative

<csarven> mf examples are not *about* AS

ha ha

<Arnaud> PROPOSAL: Close ISSUE-44 as duplicative, open ISSUE-45

<KevinMarks> csarven: vocabulary versus syntax

<ben_thatmustbeme> +1

<KevinMarks> you can represent any vocab in mf2

<csarven> KevinMarks mf is a package. mixes vocab and versus

<csarven> -1

<tantek> +1


<KevinMarks> +1

<melvster> 0

<aaronpk> +1

<cwebber2> +0

<Loqi> Cwebber2 made 1 edit to Socialwg/2015-10-29

<rhiaro> 0

csarven: I disagree that 44 and 45 are related
... 45 talks about changing the examples to meet the requirements of mf

<KevinMarks> if you want an example of representing arbitrary vocab in mf2, see

csarven: these are different issues

<tantek> KevinMarks, if anything your post about that demonstrates that arbitrary vocabs are not a good pattern to adopt.

<KevinMarks> I think it does, yes, but csarven is strawmanning about process

csarven: we can at least have the documentation for why we came up with the examples

Arnaud: issues are about stating a problem, not suggesting a solution

<tantek> hey csarven, eprodrom gave reasons for it already, all minuted above.

<ben_thatmustbeme> point of order, we are not voting on "Closing" any issue, but rather "Rejecting"

<tantek> it's a bit out of order to say "haven't heard any reasons" when such reasons were spoken on the telcon and minuted

<tantek> agreed ben_thatmustbeme - reject reopening

<tantek> eprodrom: my suggestion is that we amend the text of issue 45 as you suggested Arnaud

<csarven> Arnaud++

<Loqi> Arnaud has 21 karma

<csarven> Arnaud I have. Please read the email.

Arnaud: we are 35 minutes into the call, I'm going to overrule and not open issue 44

<csarven> Then why do you state that I should?

Arnaud: we will defer to issue 45

<csarven> You've overruled. Lets move on

<csarven> As I've stated. ACTION-26 is incomplete.

<Arnaud> RESOLVED: Close ISSUE-44 as duplicative, open ISSUE-45

<csarven> That's "new" information.

<cwebber2> amy is here via text, and I will speak yes

<rhiaro> cwebber2++

<Loqi> cwebber2 has 39 karma

Publish AS 2.0 as a Candidate Recommendation

Arnaud: after consultation with jasnell I think we should take AS 2.0 to CR to move the process along
... I'd like to ask jasnell where we are with the spec

jasnell: The core spec has not changed much at all
... except to keep it up-to-date with vocabulary
... it is stable
... no open issues for core
... two major issues for vocabulary
... issue 193, related to changes to the collection paging model



jasnell: also collection properties

Arnaud: harry sent an email about the requirements to go to CR
... one requirement is to have our issues closed
... some issues in Tracker are not closed

eprodrom: do we need to have interoperable implementations for CR?

<jasnell> btw... in terms of implementation, is up to date to the current editor's draft

Arnaud: no, CR means that we are showing to the world and asking for implementations
... we do need to have a test suite

<Zakim> sandro, you wanted to ask about implementations

Arnaud: once the spec is frozen for CR, we can move on to test suite

sandro: we should know how long the CR period will be

<sandro> sandro: So who is planning to implement? When? And will it be complete

eprodrom: will implement

<cwebber2> yes

<sandro> eprodrom: wont be consuming until we know what the API looks like

Arnaud: who else is planning to implement

sandro, thanks, true

<tantek> I have AS1/Atom on my site No intention to implement AS2 in its current form.

melvster: we will consider demonstration implementations

<KevinMarks> we should contact large-scale users of AS1 to see if they are interested in implementing

<rhiaro> I plan to experiment with AS2 for my site, small scale

Arnaud: what are the exit criteria and what is the time frame?
... one is the expiration of the working group
... another is having two implementations

<KevinMarks> gnip, echo et al

Arnaud: In practice, it's a minimum of two
... But it should be more

<tantek> KevinMarks - do you have a wiki page documenting such "large-scale users of AS1" with citations?

Arnaud: we have had this case before and chose not to go forward
... let's move on

<Zakim> tantek, you wanted to note that per process we have to have zero open issues, if they're trivial, then that trivial work needs to be done to propose + drive resolutions BEFORE

tantek: we have to hit 0 issues for the spec
... if we have trivial issues, we have to wrap them up
... I feel that AS 2.0 and modern publishing and consuming practices on the web have continued to diverge
... that's bad for any spec
... if it doesn't reflect practice, then it's a bad direction
... standards work best when they reflect current practice

<csarven> Define "modern publishing and consuming practices"

Arnaud: we should discuss and consider for next call

<tantek> csarven - people actually publishing content on the social web, not just in silos

<aaronpk> I hear that as saying standards should be descriptive rather than prescriptive

Social Web API

<ben_thatmustbeme> this is a pretty good doc amy made

<ben_thatmustbeme> rhiaro++

<Loqi> rhiaro has 139 karma

Arnaud: cwebber to discuss API requirements created by rhiaro


<KevinMarks> and both translate various silos into AS1 JSON

cwebber2: Amy broke down the user stories into a structured data format

<tantek> KevinMarks - rather than listing individual examples, can you please add them to a AS1 JSON implementations page?

<csarven> tantek Are you suggesting that AS2 leans on the silo-practice?

cwebber2: with color-coded marks
... we're thinking of using this document as a bridge

<tantek> rhiaro++ for

<Loqi> rhiaro has 140 karma

cwebber2: since it works more or less like a todo list

<tantek> cwebber2++ for walking us through - good way to attempt to focus

<Loqi> cwebber2 has 40 karma

<ben_thatmustbeme> cwebber2++ for presenting that

<Loqi> cwebber2 has 41 karma

cwebber2: aaronpk, rhiaro and cwebber2 will work on implementations

<KevinMarks> there is a mismatch between and

cwebber2: this will help us compare where specs are in sync or not

<KevinMarks> we should audit to see if any examples exist

cwebber2: is anyone else interested in implementations
... both aaronpk and rhiaro are re-engineering their sites

jasnell: if you're looking at the document, there's different color-coding

<jasnell> eprodrom: that's not me :-)

<aaronpk> that's aaron

Oh crap


aaronpk: if you're looking at the document, there's different color-coding
... and we can use those color-codes to break down the effort in the integration

<ben_thatmustbeme> cwebber2, i am trying to keep my site up to date as much as possible when i have time

<cwebber2> ben_thatmustbeme: maybe say that on the call?

<jasnell> o/

ben_thatmustbeme: I will be working on SWAT0

Arnaud: any other comments?

<melvster> FYI:

<cwebber2> eprodrom: are these all approved user stories, I thought we had some other user stories that were not on here

<cwebber2> rhiaro^^

<jasnell> before we close, just a reminder to everyone: I need input on github issues #191 and #193 as mentioned earlier (,


<rhiaro> THey're the ones .. yeah, there ^

<cwebber2> :)

<ben_thatmustbeme> these are the only approved ones

<rhiaro> I will be happy to keep this Req doc up to date as more user stories are approved, using the same process

<rhiaro> if people are agreeing with the results

<aaronpk> oh it looks like we approved *only* the +1 ones

ben_thatmustbeme: yes, we only approved ones that were unanimous

<rhiaro> We all need to work with the IG to approve more though

<ben_thatmustbeme> Arnaud++

<Loqi> Arnaud has 22 karma

<rhiaro> Everyone who -1d a story has a responsibility to respond to requests from the IG, I think

ben_thatmustbeme: we tried to approve 1/0 ones, but couldn't get consensus

<tantek> eprodrom++ for scribing!

<ben_thatmustbeme> eprodrom++

Arnaud: closing, will have next meeting in two weeks

<cwebber2> eprodrom++

<tantek> Arnaud++ for chairing

<Arnaud> trackbot, end meeting

<cwebber2> Arnaud++ for chairing

<cwebber2> and!

<cwebber2> rhiaro++ for the great document

Summary of Action Items

[End of minutes]

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