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Social CG

09 May 2018




<cwebber2> ======== MEETING STARTS, THANKS A LOT TRACKBOT ========

<eprodrom> [11:13] == No such nick or channel name: Zakim

<ajordan> we should get pumabot in this channel lol

<cwebber2> present+ cwebber

<cwebber2> present+ eprodrom

<eprodrom> curiouser and curiouser

<ajordan> cwebber2++ for the excellent banner

<Loqi> cwebber2 has 113 karma

<cwebber2> present+ ajordan

<Loqi> totally

What extensions do we need to add to the AS2 editor's draft?

<Loqi> [cwebber] #461 Document the extension process

<eprodrom> Agenda

cwebber2: okay so nightpool did something very helpful, lemme pull it up

<eprodrom> afk 30s


<ajordan> one might almost say nightpool is putting the federation in

<ajordan> CONTEXT

<cwebber2> ha!

<nightpool> hey!

<nightpool> i'm here

<cwebber2> hi nightpool !

<nightpool> one sec while I read the backlog

<cwebber2> want to hop on mumble?

<ajordan> long ago eprodrom revoked my standards license and that really should have been enforced ;)

<cwebber2> we've barely started ;)

cwebber: welcome nightpool

nightpool: hello! one sec I need my headphones

cwebber2: eprodrom are you back?

eprodrom: yes

<nightpool> soft g

cwebber2: nightpool you were asking what's first on the agenda; since you weren't here we actually started with the AS2 extension teminology. the second one
... I just linked your gist
... this is very helpful; one thing I'm noticing about this is that there are a lot more extensions than I was anticipating which is good, I guess
... what I'm wondering is, are they being embedded with every object that's sent across the wire or are they being linked to as contexts that you retrieve?

nightpool: kroeg and hubzilla do the former, plemora/mastadon/peertube do the latter

cwebber2: it's useful to know that there's a mix of both

cwebber2: so eprodrom have you looked adt this list? I wonder what your thoughts are since there are a bunch of items we haven't even discussed making extensions yet

eprodrom: yeah definitely
... I have different feelings on different things on here
... some of them are interesting... a lot of this is just redefining AS2 stuff, hashtag etc.
... others are interesting in that they're mixing in well-known vocabularies, is in here
... that one's interesting in that, should we make that available right in the context
... just add in, vcard, etc. to save a couple lines in here
... it's a little bit of a permission, suggestion, guidance
... there are some that are clearly experimental or focused on the particular implementation
... I take the Mastadon namespace as one there
... it's probably a good idea to not fish too far into ones that are clearly experimental or implementation-focused and instead kinda let those bubble up as they become more used across system
... looks like the mastadon one *is* being used across systems so I'd love to see what those elements are

<nightpool> q+ to talk about "redefining as namespaces"

... but I think more focused specific ones should live in their own systems
... and let me also say this is the first time I'm looking at this so it's just impressions

<cwebber2> q+ to ask about as:Hashtag and etc

... last one is that ostatus namespace, seems like it's a backwards compatibility thing

<cwebber2> q?

... idk who's managing that namespace
... I would not be thrilled about incorporating ostatus, I feel like we're trying to build a replacement for it
... if there's stuff in there we can't do we should add it

cwebber2: I'm not even sure all those terms are terms in that namespace
... I remember talking to Gargron and we were like well they're just in the ostatus namespace, who cares what's in there
... nightpool you're next

nightpool: same thing and you can explain it better than I can

cwebber2: didn't mean to clobber you
... about the ostatus namespace I don't care if that's clobbered but there's some stuff not in the as2 namespace yet
... so like as:hashtag isn't in there

nightpool: yes, it's there so the canonicalization algorithm works

cwebber2: so which of these things can we push forward to get in the editor's draft and the context

eprodrom: we don't ever want to change the editor's draft of the vocab context
... it is a shipped document and we do not modify it, it would be misleading to people to have an ED that doesn't match the shipped document
... we're not working on a next version of AS right now

<cwebber2> q+ to say okay, at least we discussed putting an extensions page in that repo at least

... whether we make new documents is an interesting discussion but yeah it's definitely a good idea

<nightpool> q+ to talk to ostatus:conversation

... cwebber2 I wonder if there's a mechanism we could provide as a way of defining extensions
... like, I am working on an AS system and I've created a set of things around role playing games and I'd like to create a namespace that's like socialcg:rpg to start experimenting in
... and we could give a nod to that and say here's a namespace
... and then people could start building on that so we have a mechanism for people to start experimenting in

<nightpool> (reminder that the w3 wiki is not editable by community group members, only WG members)

... and then we can discuss bringing them into the main as namespace if they have a lot of implementations, getting them in the context , etc.

cwebber2: I think we're retreading some conversations we had without any of the AS2 editors present which was a mistake
... I think last time we agreed that the AS2 Git repository and issue tracker was where we were discussing pulling in extensions

eprodrom: that makes a lot of sense, absolutely, and I think that namespacing...
... in this gist you've got there's personal URLs for namespaces
... if I look at this I'm not gonna say that looks like the W3C people are experimenting with a new namespace for conversations
... what I see is there's a guy named ??? and he's experimenting with nomadic locations
... I think there's some value in using a namespace that carries some info

<nightpool> (totally fine!)

cwebber2: sure
... I wanna try to make some movement on this convo since nightpool is queued
... it sounds like you're ok with having extensions documents and contexts(?) in the AS2 repo


eprodrom: we have a wiki for that though man
... can't we just put that on the wiki?

cwebber2: my impression was that last time we decided to keep stuff in a repo but maybe I'm wrong

nightpool: I think we made that decision based on the fact that W3C wiki isn't editable by non-members anymore

cwebber2: the systems team has said that's what's happened

eprodrom: can we enable the wiki on GitHub?

cwebber2: we could, I'm not against this, but part of the argument for issues/PRs was that it would be a work flow we're familiar with as developers
... it sounds like we don't have a resolution on this but I want to switch to nightpool

nightpool: yeah so summarizing the ostatus thing Mastadon switched from ostatus to AP and we needed some context terms
... so e.g. if we got an edit for an ostatus post we had to associate that with the original ostatus URL
... the ostatus:conversation is something we're seeing people using even if they didn't do an ostatus migration because it lets you associate posts in a thread
... that's something that maybe needs rescuing from the ostatus namespace and put somewhere else

eprodrom: that makes sense, I'm capturing in an issue ... I can think of a couple of existing terms that might fit there but none that are specific for "conversation"
... it's really only important if you're doing massively hierarchical threading, just being able to link things up to the original post
... if you're doing flatter threading it's less important
... it's something we dropped going from statusnet ->, we had massive hierarchical threading in statusnet and most of the ux suggestions right now are "don't do that"
... I want to come back to cwebber2's question, there's kinda three rings
... outer ring is per-implementation, very niche
... that's kinda gonna be one-off namespaces
... if there's something specific to we'd use a pumpio namespace

cwebber2: and you'd probably have it on's domain right?

eprodrom: yeah

eprodrom: so that's the outer ring

<nightpool> zot:nomadicHubs is an example here, I think

... I think there's a next ring in, stuff that might have multiple implementations, where we may want to have a way of defining namespaces for those
... so, socialcg:rpg
... socialcg:voicechat, socialcg: different kinds of subnamespaces
... that might be useful for people to start working together and collaborating on

<nightpool> toot:Emoji or as:manuallyApprovesFollowers is probably an example for the middle ring

... and then a last kind of inner ring for things that are going to be part of the as namespace

<cwebber2> q+ to ask for where these socialcg-* namespaces live, also if terms *can* move in

... and we agreed to put extensions in the as namespace eventually ... and I think things would move through those rings

<nightpool> and as:sensitive sounds like an example of something that's pretty solidly in the inner ring.

... we have a wiki page listing extensions, I think that would get us pretty far

cwebber2: okay I think I'm next on the queue ... so for where the socialcg namespaces live I'm guessing you're saying they're not necessarily a subnamespace of as2 right?

eprodrom: that might be a good way to do it actually

cwebber2: I think one of the condcwerns that sandro had is that it can be very hard to get terms to migrate
... once people are used to terms being in a specific location it's kinda hard to update code to alias it and not necessarily all systems will update to do that

<ajordan> q+

... the problem sandro raised with that is that you end up getting a lot of little namespaces

<nightpool> (heads up that I have a hard out at 11:50)

... and about things moving in I think he objected that ???
... maybe what works with the subnamespaces thing is that there's an expectation that we're not gonna move it
... so it's as2/rpg#fragment or whatever

eprodrom: so I like that, here's the thing
... I know this is kinda elitist and unfair
... I don't want to support any bullshit terms that people make up
... there's a level of dumping stuff onto editors and the CG that I would like to have a little bit of an acceptance level
... it would be nice to have something that's a low barrier to entry
... "I'm working on something with rpgs", great
... here's a namespace
... and you can work on your context. then say you get multiple implementations, etc. then we can move into the main namespace
... they'll still resolve into the same URL, but you can use the namespace or not

cwebber2: note that there's a difference between vocab locations and context locations
... if we add stuff to the main as2 context that doesn't mean we have to change the location for the vocab

ajordan: since we're talking about moving things... nevermind, what I was going to say is another problem we can look at is starting to use an HTTP header, and then there's X-content-security-policy AND content-security-policy... I think that's resolved by putting things in the context and not moving the vocab itself

eprodrom: if it's okay with you I'll document this process, and maybe we can review it at the next meeting?

cwebber2: sure that's fine with me, nightpool sorry we took over
... should we queue Mastadon stuff for the next meeting?

nightpool: I can go over it in like 5 minutes, it's not super important
... the main thing is that we've added pin collections
... it accepts add/remove from the owner and is federated out
... we added a focal point property for images to affect where they center
... and we've added a way for reporting statuses, if a user reports a status they can also optionally send that to a mod of another server

cwebber2: ok great so sounds like we have next steps for the first topic, eprodrom's gonna write that up, and nightpool thanks for the overview

<nightpool> 👋

<ajordan> fyi laptop's about to die

eprodrom: yes, I have a couple PRs for AS2
... I'd like to review them and then push them
... I linked the PRs in the agenda
... they're primarily errors in examples in the vocab document
... and one that's a typographical error in one of the property definitions
... so I've done four PRs that add these to the errata so when you look at the errata it'll say oops there's a problem with this example, a problem with that example
... these all come from bugs people have filed on AS2
... since we can't actually change the docs this is the next best thing

cwebber2: all looks good to me
... I'll note that even though as2 is done we can keep a community report even though it's not an editor's draft
... the CG has the authority to maintain... I'm forgetting what they're called

eprodrom: so you'd look at AS on GitHub and if would be different with no mark that it's been added later

cwebber2: you _can_ mark it, JSON-LD has a good way
... they put new stuff in green

eprodrom: I'm so -1 on this
... it seems like a really bad idea, why would we maintain 3 documents

cwebber2: I'm fine with that, you're the editor, I just wanted to note it was an option
... anyway those look great
... any further business?

<cwebber2> =============== MEETING END ==================

Summary of Action Items

Summary of Resolutions

[End of minutes]