Re: Oct 16, Telecon Minutes (draft)

Jeff Z. Pan wrote:
> Please review the attached minutes.
>

Please find the revised minutes (based on Harold's comments) in the 
attachment.

Jeff

> Jeff
>
> -- Dr. Jeff Z. Pan (http://www.csd.abdn.ac.uk/~jpan/) Department of 
> Computing Science, The University of Aberdeen
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> W3C <http://www.w3.org/>
>
>
>   - DRAFT -
>
>
>   RIF Telecon 16 Oct 2007
>
>
>     16 Oct 2007
>
> Agenda 
> <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2007Oct/0065.html>
>
> See also: IRC log <http://www.w3.org/2007/10/16-rif-irc>
>
>
>     Attendees
>
> Present
>     DaveReynolds, ChrisW, +49.892.1.aaaa, PaulaP, Harold,
>     StellaMitchell, Sandro, csma, +012242aabb, JeffP, +49.351.6.aacc,
>     AdrianP, AxelPolleres, LeoraMorgenstern, Gary_Hallmark,
>     MichaelKifer, PaulVincent
> Regrets
>     JosDeBruijn, IgorMozetic, AllenGinsberg
> Chair
>     Chris Welty
> Scribe
>     Jeff Pan, JeffP
>
>
>     Contents
>
>     * Topics <#agenda>
>          1. Admin <#item01>
>          2. Liason <#item02>
>          3. F2F <#item03>
>          4. BLD <#item04>
>          5. Arch - naming conventions <#item05>
>          6. Requirements for Arch <#item06>
>          7. test cases <#item07>
>     * Summary of Action Items <#ActionSummary>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>  
>
>  
>
> <PaulaP> :)
>
> <PaulaP> +1
>
> <PaulaP> :)
>
> <ChrisW> scribe: Jeff Pan
>
> <ChrisW> scribe: JeffP
>
> <ChrisW> scribenick: JeffP
>
>
>       Admin
>
> <ChrisW> 
> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2007Oct/att-0034/2007-10-09-rif-minutes.html
>
> <ChrisW> RESOLVED: accept minutes of 10/9 meeting
>
> PROPOSED: Accept minutes of October 9 telecon [1]
>
> no objection
>
> PROPOSED: Accept minutes of F2F7 [2], [3]
>
> No objection
>
> ChrisW: W3C team is migrating wiki to mediawiki
> ... we also want to migrate
>
> <AxelPolleres> Will the old wiki still be preserved, then no prob, we 
> can migrate other stuff on demand if needed.
>
> ChrisW: Proposed: only migrate the active pages
>
> Harold: will we lose web pages in this way?
>
> Sandro: It is just a UI, so nothing would be lost,
>
> <sandro> (it == the 100 page limit.)
>
> ChrisW: There are many good reasons to move over, and now we should 
> identify the web pages that we want to migrate
>
> sandro: do we need to move now?
>
> ChrisW: As Harold suggested, no move until the release of the working 
> draft
>
>
>       Liason
>
> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-owl-wg/2007Oct/0066.html
>
> <sandro> That's PFPS's **DRAFT for OWL WG** of his review of BLD. It's 
> not sent to us yet, and may change before it gets sent to us.
>
> sandro: JeffP is also attending telecons of both WGs
>
>
>       F2F
>
>
>       BLD
>
> <Harold> Two concerns wrt early moinmoin->mediawiki conversion: 1) 
> Loss of version history [currently versions older than 100 steps back 
> are invisible, very likely just a moinmoin parameter]. 2) The wiki-tr 
> tool need to be adapted [give time to try it out in mediawiki].
>
> <Harold> http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/wiki/Core/Horn_Rules_Alternative
>
> <Harold> RESOLVED: For WD2, change structural model so that Forall, 
> Implies, and Atomic are three parallel subclasses of RULE (as shown on 
> Christian's diagram labeled "BLD Rule: alternative")
>
> <Harold> 1) For the choice ' Forall ' Var* ' ( ' CLAUSE ' ) ' we still 
> need to capture in prose that all free CLAUSE variables should be 
> declared in Forall's Var*.
>
> <Harold> 2) For the choice CLAUSE (to the left of the '|') we obtain a 
> duplication of formulas expressible as ' Forall ' ' ( ' CLAUSE ' ) '.
>
> <Harold> 3) For the choice CLAUSE we are also dependent on the Prolog 
> convention.
>
> ChrisW: What is the new information?
>
> (can we have an email explaining the problem?)
>
> <scribe> *ACTION:* Harold to move this into the document [recorded in 
> http://www.w3.org/2007/10/16-rif-minutes.html#action01]
>
> <scribe> *ACTION:* Harold to freeze the BLD editor's draft [recorded 
> in http://www.w3.org/2007/10/16-rif-minutes.html#action02]
>
> <rifbot> Tracking ISSUEs and ACTIONs from 
> http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/track/
>
> <scribe> *ACTION:* sandro and csma to move the action into the tracker 
> [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/10/16-rif-minutes.html#action03]
>
> <rifbot> Created ACTION-357 - And csma to move the action into the 
> tracker [on Sandro Hawke - due 2007-10-23].
>
> ACTION 355 complete
>
> Action 354 continue
>
> <DaveReynolds> Action 356 done: see 
> http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/track/issues/42
>
> Action 353 continue
>
> Action 352 closed
>
> <AxelPolleres> 350 is done: 
> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2007Sep/0184.html
>
> Action 351 continue
>
> Actions 349 continue
>
> Action 348 complete
>
> Action 350 pending discussion
>
> Action 347 complete
>
> Action 346 continue
>
> Action 342 pending discussion
>
> <ChrisW> http://www.jdrew.org/rif/wd2/
>
> ChrisW: which one is the BLD?
>
> (six documents available from the above link)
>
> http://www.jdrew.org/rif/wd2/RIFPosHorn.xsd is BLD?
>
> csma: Which one is the complete one?
>
> sandro: put it in appendix and a stable W3C URL
>
> <scribe> *ACTION:* Harold to move the complete one into the appendix 
> [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/10/16-rif-minutes.html#action05]
>
> <rifbot> Created ACTION-358 - Move the complete one into the appendix 
> [on Harold Boley - due 2007-10-23].
>
> csma: People should read and comment the schema
>
>
>       Arch - naming conventions
>
> csma: should have been removed (?)
>
> <ChrisW> 
> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2007Oct/0053.html
>
>
>       Requirements for Arch
>
> sandro: three questions as numbered
>
> <Harold> We could also talk here about RIF Dialect Structure: 
> http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/wiki/Arch/RIF_Components/RIF_Dialect_Structure
>
> <Zakim> csma, you wanted to ask what Sandro means by RIF document
>
> <Harold> A Horn dialect has somewhat different semantics for a rule 
> P(...) :- Q(...) than an extension with strong negation, where that 
> same rule also 'means' its contraposition ~Q(...) :- ~P(...).
>
> <csma> Normal forms!
>
> sandro: not sure the answer yet
>
> DaveR: what about built-ins?
>
> <sandro> Sandro: Good question Harold. You could use different syntax. 
> Otherwise there's a challenge as to how to do this.
>
> <sandro> compare: Arch vs Component Library
>
> <sandro> Component Library is a way to implement No-Conflict and 
> Max-Reuse?
>
> ChrisW: any other comments?
>
> <Harold> Sandro, as I just reponded to Axel, we could keep the same 
> syntax and construct a hierarchy of semantics (see Michael's lattice 
> diagram).
>
> sandro: Michael sent some comments ...
> ... blue arrows, syntactic sugar?
>
> MichaelK: yes
>
> <AxelPolleres> I think that the contraposition issue can exactly be 
> addressed with the definition of "loose layering" from Jos, mentioned 
> in this mail: 
> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2007Oct/0056.html
>
> MichaelK: frames are syntactic sugar
>
> sandro: I would like to have cheap and easy syntactic sugar
>
> MichaelK: we need to think about the scenarios
>
> <Harold> The semantics of extension dialects can extend the meaning of 
> syntactic constructs in base dialects.
>
> (bye)
>
> sandro: we were talking about another kind of round-tripping
>
> <GaryHallmark> the most important round-tripping is using RIF as a 
> document storage format
>
> <csma> +1 to gary
>
>
>       test cases
>
> http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/wiki/Arch/Test_Cases
>
> csma: just a subject that we never discussed
> ... Dave did some early work on this
> ... maybe we should pick it up again now
>
> <Harold> We have three early test cases from the examples of the 
> paper, e.g. http://www.jdrew.org/rif/wd2/RIFPosHornExample.rif
>
> sandro: a query syntax or see the print result
>
> csma: seems that the print approach is easier
>
> <PaulVincent> +1 to test fn for print
>
> <Harold> I think Query is needed anyway.
>
> <GaryHallmark> query sounds right for BLD, print "action" for PRD
>
> <JeffP> +1 for query sounds right for BLD, print "action" for PRD
>
> <Harold> Actually, we already have a Query language: the BLD Condition 
> Language. Let's use it for test cases!
>
> (we are ruunig out of time)
>
> <Harold> Jeff, I also agree with the bit about print "action" for PRD.
>
> <DaveReynolds> +1 to Sandro, all that semantics is part of the dialect
>
> <PaulaP> one possibility would be to list all facts (data items) 
> entailed by the program
>
> ChrisW: AOB?
>
> <csma> scribe
>
> <csma> scribe
>
> <csma> scribe
>
> <PaulaP> bye
>
> <AdrianP> 
> http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/wiki/Rule_Interchange_Through_Test-Driven_Verification_and_Validation
>
> <PaulVincent> bye
>
>
>     Summary of Action Items
>
> *[NEW]* *ACTION:* Harold to freeze the BLD editor's draft [recorded in 
> http://www.w3.org/2007/10/16-rif-minutes.html#action02]
> *[NEW]* *ACTION:* Harold to move the complete one into the appendix 
> [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/10/16-rif-minutes.html#action05]
> *[NEW]* *ACTION:* Harold to move this into the document [recorded in 
> http://www.w3.org/2007/10/16-rif-minutes.html#action01]
> *[NEW]* *ACTION:* sandro and csma to move the action into the tracker 
> [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/10/16-rif-minutes.html#action03]
>  
> [End of minutes]
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Minutes formatted by David Booth's scribe.perl 
> <http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/%7Echeckout%7E/2002/scribe/scribedoc.htm> 
> version 1.128 (CVS log <http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/2002/scribe/>)
> $Date: 2007/10/16 16:32:55 $
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>     Scribe.perl diagnostic output
>
> [Delete this section before finalizing the minutes.]
> This is scribe.perl Revision: 1.128  of Date: 2007/02/23 21:38:13  
> Check for newer version at http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/ <http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/%7Echeckout%7E/2002/scribe/>
>
> Guessing input format: RRSAgent_Text_Format (score 1.00)
>
> Succeeded: s/a three/three/
> Found Scribe: Jeff Pan
> Found Scribe: JeffP
> Found ScribeNick: JeffP
> Scribes: Jeff Pan, JeffP
> Default Present: DaveReynolds, ChrisW, +49.892.1.aaaa, PaulaP, Harold, StellaMitchell, Sandro, csma, +012242aabb, JeffP, +49.351.6.aacc, AdrianP, AxelPolleres, LeoraMorgenstern, Gary_Hallmark, MichaelKifer, PaulVincent
> Present: DaveReynolds ChrisW +49.892.1.aaaa PaulaP Harold StellaMitchell Sandro csma +012242aabb JeffP +49.351.6.aacc AdrianP AxelPolleres LeoraMorgenstern Gary_Hallmark MichaelKifer PaulVincent
> Regrets: JosDeBruijn IgorMozetic AllenGinsberg
> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2007Oct/0065.html
> Got date from IRC log name: 16 Oct 2007
> Guessing minutes URL: http://www.w3.org/2007/10/16-rif-minutes.html
> People with action items: 355 csma harold sandro
>
>   
> [End of scribe.perl 
> <http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/%7Echeckout%7E/2002/scribe/scribedoc.htm> 
> diagnostic output]