14:37:11 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #rif
14:37:11 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2007/10/16-rif-irc
14:37:25 <ChrisW> zakim, this will be rif
14:37:25 <Zakim> ok, ChrisW; I see SW_RIF()11:00AM scheduled to start in 23 minutes
14:38:26 <ChrisW> Meeting: RIF Telecon 16 Oct 2007
14:38:37 <ChrisW> Chair: Chris Welty
14:39:15 <ChrisW> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2007Oct/0065.html
14:39:29 <ChrisW> ChrisW has changed the topic to: 16 Oct RIF Telecon agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2007Oct/0065.html
14:39:55 <ChrisW> agenda+ Admin
14:40:07 <ChrisW> agenda+ Liason
14:40:13 <ChrisW> agenda+ F2F
14:40:31 <ChrisW> agenda+ BLD
14:40:44 <ChrisW> agenda+ Arch - naming conventions
14:40:51 <ChrisW> agenda+ Arch - Test cases
14:40:57 <ChrisW> agenda+ AOB
14:41:14 <ChrisW> rrsagent, make minutes
14:41:14 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/10/16-rif-minutes.html ChrisW
14:41:33 <ChrisW> rrsagent, make logs public
14:49:20 <sandro> sandro has joined #rif
14:51:37 <sandro> RRSAgent, pointer?
14:51:37 <RRSAgent> See http://www.w3.org/2007/10/16-rif-irc#T14-51-37
14:52:47 <patranja> patranja has joined #rif
14:58:57 <Harold> Harold has joined #rif
15:00:33 <DaveReynolds> DaveReynolds has joined #rif
15:01:01 <Zakim> SW_RIF()11:00AM has now started
15:01:04 <Zakim> +??P16
15:01:08 <Zakim> +[IBM]
15:01:11 <Zakim> -[IBM]
15:01:26 <Zakim> +[IBM]
15:01:36 <ChrisW> zakim, ibm is temporarily me
15:01:36 <Zakim> +ChrisW; got it
15:01:37 <StellaMitchell> StellaMitchell has joined #rif
15:01:54 <ChrisW> zakim, who is on the phone?
15:01:54 <Zakim> On the phone I see DaveReynolds, ChrisW
15:03:03 <Zakim> + +49.892.1.aaaa
15:03:36 <PaulaP> :)
15:03:53 <csma> csma has joined #rif
15:04:07 <Zakim> +[NRCC]
15:04:34 <Harold> zakim, [NRCC] is me
15:04:34 <Zakim> +Harold; got it
15:04:51 <Zakim> +[IBM]
15:04:58 <StellaMitchell> zakim, [ibm] is temporarily me
15:04:58 <Zakim> +StellaMitchell; got it
15:05:03 <Zakim> +Sandro
15:05:45 <PaulaP> +1
15:05:46 <Zakim> +??P3
15:05:48 <PaulaP> :)
15:06:02 <JeffP> JeffP has joined #rif
15:06:10 <csma> zakim, ??P3 is me
15:06:10 <Zakim> +csma; got it
15:07:08 <Zakim> + +012242aabb
15:07:21 <JeffP> zakim, ++012242aabb is me
15:07:21 <Zakim> sorry, JeffP, I do not recognize a party named '++012242aabb'
15:07:35 <JeffP> zakim, aabb is me
15:07:35 <Zakim> +JeffP; got it
15:08:23 <ChrisW> zakim, who is on the phone?
15:08:23 <Zakim> On the phone I see DaveReynolds, ChrisW, PaulaP (muted), Harold, StellaMitchell, Sandro, csma, JeffP
15:08:31 <ChrisW> scribe: Jeff Pan
15:08:35 <ChrisW> scribe: JeffP
15:08:43 <ChrisW> scribenick: JeffP
15:08:48 <AdrianP> AdrianP has joined #RIF
15:08:53 <AxelPolleres> AxelPolleres has joined #rif
15:08:59 <ChrisW> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2007Oct/att-0034/2007-10-09-rif-minutes.html
15:09:22 <csma> zakim, mute me
15:09:22 <Zakim> csma should now be muted
15:09:33 <ChrisW> RESOLVED: accept minutes of 10/9 meeting
15:09:53 <Zakim> + +49.351.6.aacc
15:09:55 <JeffP> PROPOSED: Accept minutes of October 9 telecon [1] 
15:10:01 <Zakim> +??P22
15:10:04 <AdrianP> zakim, aacc is me
15:10:04 <Zakim> +AdrianP; got it
15:10:05 <JeffP> no objection
15:10:18 <JeffP> PROPOSED: Accept minutes of F2F7 [2], [3] 
15:10:22 <AdrianP> zakim, mute me
15:10:22 <Zakim> AdrianP should now be muted
15:10:26 <JeffP> No objection
15:10:54 <JeffP> ChrisW: W3C team is migrating wiki to mediawiki
15:11:07 <JeffP> ... we also want to migrate
15:11:56 <AxelPolleres> Will the old wiki still be preserved, then no prob, we can migrate other stuff on demand if needed.
15:12:03 <JeffP> ... Proposed: only migrate the active pages
15:14:20 <JeffP> Harold: will we lose web pages in this way?
15:14:57 <JeffP> Sandro: It is just a UI, so nothing would be lost,
15:15:12 <sandro> (it == the 100 page limit.)
15:16:18 <csma> q+
15:16:24 <JeffP> ChrisW: There are many good reasons to move over, and now we should identify the web pages that we want to migrate
15:16:34 <Zakim> +LeoraMorgenstern
15:17:25 <JeffP> sandro: do we need to move now?
15:17:53 <csma> ack csma
15:19:20 <Zakim> +Gary_Hallmark
15:20:01 <GaryHallmark> GaryHallmark has joined #rif
15:20:49 <ChrisW> zakim, next item
15:20:49 <Zakim> agendum 1. "Admin" taken up [from ChrisW]
15:21:02 <JeffP> ChrisW: As Harold suggested, no move until the release of the working draft
15:21:03 <ChrisW> zakim, close item 1
15:21:03 <Zakim> agendum 1, Admin, closed
15:21:04 <Zakim> I see 6 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
15:21:06 <Zakim> 2. Liason [from ChrisW]
15:21:08 <ChrisW> zakim, next item
15:21:08 <Zakim> agendum 2. "Liason" taken up [from ChrisW]
15:22:28 <MichaelKifer> MichaelKifer has joined #rif
15:22:43 <JeffP> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-owl-wg/2007Oct/0066.html
15:24:05 <sandro> That's PFPS's **DRAFT for OWL WG** of his review of BLD.     It's not sent to us yet, and may change before it gets sent to us.
15:24:11 <ChrisW> zakim, next item
15:24:11 <Zakim> agendum 3. "F2F" taken up [from ChrisW]
15:24:29 <Zakim> +??P13
15:24:37 <MichaelKifer> zakim, ?P13 is me
15:24:37 <Zakim> sorry, MichaelKifer, I do not recognize a party named '?P13'
15:24:49 <MichaelKifer> zakim, ??P13 is me
15:24:49 <Zakim> +MichaelKifer; got it
15:25:28 <MichaelKifer> zakim, mute me
15:25:28 <Zakim> MichaelKifer should now be muted
15:26:15 <JeffP> zakim, who is talking?
15:26:26 <Zakim> JeffP, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Sandro (18%), LeoraMorgenstern (80%)
15:26:33 <ChrisW> zakim, next item
15:26:33 <Zakim> agendum 4. "BLD" taken up [from ChrisW]
15:26:37 <sandro> zakim, who is talking?
15:26:48 <Zakim> sandro, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: csma (9%), ChrisW (80%)
15:26:55 <Harold> Two concerns wrt early moinmoin->mediawiki conversion: 1) Loss of version history [currently versions older than 100 steps back are invisible, very likely just a moinmoin parameter]. 2) The wiki-tr tool need to be adapted [give time to try it out in mediawiki].
15:27:09 <MichaelKifer> zakim, unmute me
15:27:09 <Zakim> MichaelKifer should no longer be muted
15:28:47 <Harold> http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/wiki/Core/Horn_Rules_Alternative
15:32:13 <MichaelKifer> zakim, mute me
15:32:13 <Zakim> MichaelKifer should now be muted
15:32:21 <csma> q?
15:32:26 <Harold> RESOLVED: For WD2, change structural model so that Forall, Implies, and Atomic are three parallel subclasses of RULE (as shown on Christian's diagram labeled "BLD Rule: alternative")
15:35:07 <Harold> 1) For the choice  ' Forall ' Var* ' ( ' CLAUSE ' ) '  we still need to capture in prose that all free CLAUSE variables should be declared in Forall's Var*.
15:35:21 <Harold> 2) For the choice CLAUSE (to the left of the '|') we obtain a duplication of formulas expressible as ' Forall ' ' ( ' CLAUSE ' ) '.
15:35:28 <Harold> 3) For the choice CLAUSE we are also dependent on  the Prolog convention.
15:35:50 <JeffP> ChrisW: What is the new information?
15:36:26 <JeffP> (can we have an email explaining the problem?)
15:37:12 <JeffP> Action: Harold to move this into the document
15:38:23 <JeffP> Action: Harold to freeze the BLD editor's draft
15:39:01 <rifbot> rifbot has joined #rif
15:39:02 <rifbot> Tracking ISSUEs and ACTIONs from http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/track/
15:39:34 <JeffP> Action: sandro and csma to move the action into the tracker
15:39:34 <rifbot> Created ACTION-357 - And csma to move the action into the tracker [on Sandro Hawke - due 2007-10-23].
15:40:17 <JeffP> action 355: complete
15:40:33 <JeffP> Action 354 continue
15:41:01 <DaveReynolds> Action 356 done: see http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/track/issues/42
15:41:01 <PaulVincent> PaulVincent has joined #rif
15:41:21 <JeffP> Action 353 continue
15:41:29 <MichaelKifer> zakim, unmute me
15:41:29 <Zakim> MichaelKifer should no longer be muted
15:43:10 <Zakim> +??P0
15:43:30 <JeffP> Action 352 closed
15:43:55 <AxelPolleres> 350 is done: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2007Sep/0184.html
15:43:58 <JeffP> Action 351 continue
15:44:28 <JeffP> Actions 349 continue
15:44:35 <JeffP> Action 348 complete
15:45:13 <JeffP> Action 350 pending discussion
15:46:58 <JeffP> zakim, who is talking?
15:47:08 <Zakim> JeffP, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: csma (5%), MichaelKifer (34%)
15:47:35 <JeffP> zakim, mute MichaelKifer 
15:47:35 <Zakim> MichaelKifer should now be muted
15:47:56 <JeffP> Action 347 complete
15:48:06 <JeffP> Action 346 continue
15:50:39 <JeffP> Action 342 pending discussion
15:51:19 <ChrisW> http://www.jdrew.org/rif/wd2/
15:52:26 <JeffP> ChrisW: which one is the BLD?
15:53:00 <JeffP> (six documents available from the above link)
15:53:29 <JeffP> http://www.jdrew.org/rif/wd2/RIFPosHorn.xsd is BLD?
15:56:02 <JeffP> csma: Which one is the complete one?
15:57:04 <JeffP> sandro: put it in appendix and a stable  W3C URL
15:57:59 <JeffP> Action: Harold to move the complete one into the appendix
15:57:59 <rifbot> Created ACTION-358 - Move the complete one into the appendix [on Harold Boley - due 2007-10-23].
15:59:55 <JeffP> csma: People should read and comment the schema
15:59:59 <ChrisW> zakim, next item
15:59:59 <Zakim> agendum 5. "Arch - naming conventions" taken up [from ChrisW]
16:00:21 <JeffP> csma: should have been removed (?)
16:00:47 <ChrisW> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2007Oct/0053.html
16:00:52 <JeffP> Topic: Requirements for Arch
16:01:22 <csma> zakim, mute me
16:01:22 <Zakim> csma should now be muted
16:01:47 <JeffP> sandro: three questions as numbered
16:03:27 <Harold> We could also talk here about RIF Dialect Structure: http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/wiki/Arch/RIF_Components/RIF_Dialect_Structure
16:05:58 <csma> q+ about what Sandro means by RIF document
16:06:23 <csma> q+ to ask what Sandro means by RIF document
16:07:11 <csma> ack csma
16:07:12 <Zakim> csma, you wanted to ask what Sandro means by RIF document
16:11:23 <Harold> A Horn dialect has somewhat different semantics for a rule P(...) :- Q(...) than an extension with strong negation, where that same rule also 'means' its contraposition ~Q(...) :- ~P(...).
16:11:25 <Harold> q+
16:11:36 <DaveReynolds> q+
16:11:38 <csma> zakim, mute me
16:11:38 <Zakim> csma should now be muted
16:12:03 <JeffP> q?
16:12:08 <JeffP> ack Harold
16:12:47 <csma> Normal forms!
16:13:08 <AxelPolleres> q+
16:13:14 <DaveReynolds> ack me
16:13:16 <JeffP> sandro: not sure the answer yet
16:13:29 <JeffP> q?
16:13:43 <JeffP> DaveR: what about built-ins?
16:14:48 <csma> q+
16:14:53 <JeffP> q?
16:15:01 <ChrisW> ack axel
16:15:02 <JeffP> ack AxelPolleres
16:15:02 <sandro> Sandro: Good question Harold.   You could use different syntax.   Otherwise there's a challenge as to how to do this.
16:15:08 <JeffP> q?
16:16:06 <csma> ack csma
16:16:49 <sandro> compare:   Arch vs Component Library
16:17:30 <csma> zakim, mute me
16:17:30 <Zakim> csma should now be muted
16:17:37 <sandro> Component Library is a way to implement No-Conflict and Max-Reuse?
16:17:44 <JeffP> ChrisW: any other comments?
16:17:49 <MichaelKifer> zakim, mute me
16:17:49 <Zakim> MichaelKifer was already muted, MichaelKifer
16:17:49 <Harold> Sandro, as I just reponded to Axel, we could keep the same syntax and construct a hierarchy of semantics (see Michael's lattice diagram).
16:17:59 <MichaelKifer> zakim, unmute me
16:17:59 <Zakim> MichaelKifer should no longer be muted
16:18:00 <JeffP> sandro: Michael sent some comments ...
16:18:32 <JeffP> ... blue arrows, syntactic sugar?
16:18:46 <JeffP> MichaelK: yes
16:18:46 <AxelPolleres> I think that the contraposition issue can exactly be addressed with the definition of "loose layering" from Jos, mentioned in this mail: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2007Oct/0056.html 
16:19:17 <JeffP> MichaelK: frames are syntactic sugar
16:19:34 <JeffP> sandro: I would like to have cheap and easy syntactic sugar
16:19:57 <JeffP> MichaelK: we need to think about the scenarios 
16:19:59 <Harold> The semantics of extension dialects can extend the meaning of syntactic constructs in base dialects.
16:20:23 <csma> q+
16:21:41 <JeffP> (bye)
16:21:48 <AxelPolleres> AxelPolleres has left #rif
16:21:58 <Zakim> -AxelPolleres
16:22:31 <JeffP> q?
16:22:35 <JeffP> ack csma
16:22:45 <MichaelKifer> zakim, mute me
16:22:45 <Zakim> MichaelKifer should now be muted
16:24:15 <JeffP> sandro: we were talking about another kind of round-tripping
16:25:04 <GaryHallmark> the most important round-tripping is using RIF as a document storage format
16:25:50 <csma> +1 to gary
16:25:55 <JeffP> Topic: test cases
16:26:08 <JeffP> http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/wiki/Arch/Test_Cases 
16:26:25 <JeffP> csma: just a subject that we never discussed
16:26:33 <JeffP> ... Dave did some early work on this
16:27:01 <JeffP> ... maybe we should pick it up again now
16:27:29 <Harold> We have a three early test cases from the examples of the paper, e.g. http://www.jdrew.org/rif/wd2/RIFPosHornExample.rif
16:28:10 <JeffP> sandro: a query syntax or see the print result
16:28:11 <Harold> s/a three/three/
16:28:22 <AdrianP> zakim, unmute me
16:28:22 <Zakim> AdrianP should no longer be muted
16:28:30 <JeffP> csma: seems that the print approach is easier
16:28:41 <JeffP> q?
16:28:56 <AdrianP> q+
16:29:02 <PaulVincent> +1 to test fn for print
16:29:03 <Harold> I think Query is needed anyway.
16:29:13 <JeffP> ack AdrianP
16:29:22 <GaryHallmark> query sounds right for BLD, print "action" for PRD
16:30:19 <JeffP> +1 for query sounds right for BLD, print "action" for PRD
16:30:21 <Harold> Actually, we already have a Query language: the BLD Condition Language. Let's use it for test cases!
16:30:59 <JeffP> (we are ruunig out of time)
16:31:32 <csma> zakim, mute me
16:31:32 <Zakim> csma should now be muted
16:31:35 <Harold> Jeff, I also agree with the bit about print "action" for PRD.
16:31:39 <DaveReynolds> +1 to Sandro, all that semantics is part of the dialect
16:31:44 <PaulaP> one possibility would be to list all facts (data items) entailed by the program
16:31:52 <JeffP> ChrisW: AOB?
16:31:56 <csma> scribe
16:31:57 <csma> scribe
16:31:58 <Zakim> -MichaelKifer
16:31:59 <csma> scribe
16:32:00 <Zakim> -Harold
16:32:03 <PaulaP> bye
16:32:06 <Zakim> -LeoraMorgenstern
16:32:08 <AdrianP> http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/wiki/Rule_Interchange_Through_Test-Driven_Verification_and_Validation
16:32:08 <Zakim> -StellaMitchell
16:32:09 <PaulVincent> bye
16:32:09 <Zakim> -Gary_Hallmark
16:32:11 <Zakim> -PaulaP
16:32:12 <ChrisW> rrsagent, make minutes
16:32:12 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/10/16-rif-minutes.html ChrisW
16:32:13 <Zakim> -Sandro
16:32:14 <Zakim> -DaveReynolds
16:32:16 <Zakim> -PaulVincent
16:32:18 <ChrisW> zakim, list attendees
16:32:18 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been DaveReynolds, ChrisW, +49.892.1.aaaa, PaulaP, Harold, StellaMitchell, Sandro, csma, +012242aabb, JeffP, +49.351.6.aacc, AdrianP,
16:32:21 <Zakim> ... AxelPolleres, LeoraMorgenstern, Gary_Hallmark, MichaelKifer, PaulVincent
16:32:24 <Zakim> -AdrianP
16:32:26 <ChrisW> rrsagent, make minutes
16:32:26 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/10/16-rif-minutes.html ChrisW
16:32:29 <csma> zakim, unmute me
16:32:29 <Zakim> csma should no longer be muted
16:32:47 <ChrisW> Regrets: JosDeBruijn, IgorMozetic, AllenGinsberg
16:32:49 <ChrisW> rrsagent, make minutes
16:32:50 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/10/16-rif-minutes.html ChrisW
16:33:15 <csma> zakim, who is on the phone?
16:33:15 <Zakim> On the phone I see ChrisW, csma, JeffP
16:34:11 <Zakim> -JeffP
16:35:23 <Zakim> -ChrisW
16:35:24 <Zakim> -csma
16:35:26 <Zakim> SW_RIF()11:00AM has ended
16:35:27 <Zakim> Attendees were DaveReynolds, ChrisW, +49.892.1.aaaa, PaulaP, Harold, StellaMitchell, Sandro, csma, +012242aabb, JeffP, +49.351.6.aacc, AdrianP, AxelPolleres, LeoraMorgenstern,
16:35:29 <Zakim> ... Gary_Hallmark, MichaelKifer, PaulVincent
16:36:31 <csma> csma has left #rif