IRC log of rif on 2007-10-16

Timestamps are in UTC.

14:37:11 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #rif
14:37:11 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2007/10/16-rif-irc
14:37:25 [ChrisW]
zakim, this will be rif
14:37:25 [Zakim]
ok, ChrisW; I see SW_RIF()11:00AM scheduled to start in 23 minutes
14:38:26 [ChrisW]
Meeting: RIF Telecon 16 Oct 2007
14:38:37 [ChrisW]
Chair: Chris Welty
14:39:15 [ChrisW]
Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2007Oct/0065.html
14:39:29 [ChrisW]
ChrisW has changed the topic to: 16 Oct RIF Telecon agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2007Oct/0065.html
14:39:55 [ChrisW]
agenda+ Admin
14:40:07 [ChrisW]
agenda+ Liason
14:40:13 [ChrisW]
agenda+ F2F
14:40:31 [ChrisW]
agenda+ BLD
14:40:44 [ChrisW]
agenda+ Arch - naming conventions
14:40:51 [ChrisW]
agenda+ Arch - Test cases
14:40:57 [ChrisW]
agenda+ AOB
14:41:14 [ChrisW]
rrsagent, make minutes
14:41:14 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/10/16-rif-minutes.html ChrisW
14:41:33 [ChrisW]
rrsagent, make logs public
14:49:20 [sandro]
sandro has joined #rif
14:51:37 [sandro]
RRSAgent, pointer?
14:51:37 [RRSAgent]
See http://www.w3.org/2007/10/16-rif-irc#T14-51-37
14:52:47 [patranja]
patranja has joined #rif
14:58:57 [Harold]
Harold has joined #rif
15:00:33 [DaveReynolds]
DaveReynolds has joined #rif
15:01:01 [Zakim]
SW_RIF()11:00AM has now started
15:01:04 [Zakim]
+??P16
15:01:08 [Zakim]
+[IBM]
15:01:11 [Zakim]
-[IBM]
15:01:26 [Zakim]
+[IBM]
15:01:36 [ChrisW]
zakim, ibm is temporarily me
15:01:36 [Zakim]
+ChrisW; got it
15:01:37 [StellaMitchell]
StellaMitchell has joined #rif
15:01:54 [ChrisW]
zakim, who is on the phone?
15:01:54 [Zakim]
On the phone I see DaveReynolds, ChrisW
15:03:03 [Zakim]
+ +49.892.1.aaaa
15:03:36 [PaulaP]
:)
15:03:53 [csma]
csma has joined #rif
15:04:07 [Zakim]
+[NRCC]
15:04:34 [Harold]
zakim, [NRCC] is me
15:04:34 [Zakim]
+Harold; got it
15:04:51 [Zakim]
+[IBM]
15:04:58 [StellaMitchell]
zakim, [ibm] is temporarily me
15:04:58 [Zakim]
+StellaMitchell; got it
15:05:03 [Zakim]
+Sandro
15:05:45 [PaulaP]
+1
15:05:46 [Zakim]
+??P3
15:05:48 [PaulaP]
:)
15:06:02 [JeffP]
JeffP has joined #rif
15:06:10 [csma]
zakim, ??P3 is me
15:06:10 [Zakim]
+csma; got it
15:07:08 [Zakim]
+ +012242aabb
15:07:21 [JeffP]
zakim, ++012242aabb is me
15:07:21 [Zakim]
sorry, JeffP, I do not recognize a party named '++012242aabb'
15:07:35 [JeffP]
zakim, aabb is me
15:07:35 [Zakim]
+JeffP; got it
15:08:23 [ChrisW]
zakim, who is on the phone?
15:08:23 [Zakim]
On the phone I see DaveReynolds, ChrisW, PaulaP (muted), Harold, StellaMitchell, Sandro, csma, JeffP
15:08:31 [ChrisW]
scribe: Jeff Pan
15:08:35 [ChrisW]
scribe: JeffP
15:08:43 [ChrisW]
scribenick: JeffP
15:08:48 [AdrianP]
AdrianP has joined #RIF
15:08:53 [AxelPolleres]
AxelPolleres has joined #rif
15:08:59 [ChrisW]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2007Oct/att-0034/2007-10-09-rif-minutes.html
15:09:22 [csma]
zakim, mute me
15:09:22 [Zakim]
csma should now be muted
15:09:33 [ChrisW]
RESOLVED: accept minutes of 10/9 meeting
15:09:53 [Zakim]
+ +49.351.6.aacc
15:09:55 [JeffP]
PROPOSED: Accept minutes of October 9 telecon [1]
15:10:01 [Zakim]
+??P22
15:10:04 [AdrianP]
zakim, aacc is me
15:10:04 [Zakim]
+AdrianP; got it
15:10:05 [JeffP]
no objection
15:10:18 [JeffP]
PROPOSED: Accept minutes of F2F7 [2], [3]
15:10:22 [AdrianP]
zakim, mute me
15:10:22 [Zakim]
AdrianP should now be muted
15:10:26 [JeffP]
No objection
15:10:54 [JeffP]
ChrisW: W3C team is migrating wiki to mediawiki
15:11:07 [JeffP]
... we also want to migrate
15:11:56 [AxelPolleres]
Will the old wiki still be preserved, then no prob, we can migrate other stuff on demand if needed.
15:12:03 [JeffP]
... Proposed: only migrate the active pages
15:14:20 [JeffP]
Harold: will we lose web pages in this way?
15:14:57 [JeffP]
Sandro: It is just a UI, so nothing would be lost,
15:15:12 [sandro]
(it == the 100 page limit.)
15:16:18 [csma]
q+
15:16:24 [JeffP]
ChrisW: There are many good reasons to move over, and now we should identify the web pages that we want to migrate
15:16:34 [Zakim]
+LeoraMorgenstern
15:17:25 [JeffP]
sandro: do we need to move now?
15:17:53 [csma]
ack csma
15:19:20 [Zakim]
+Gary_Hallmark
15:20:01 [GaryHallmark]
GaryHallmark has joined #rif
15:20:49 [ChrisW]
zakim, next item
15:20:49 [Zakim]
agendum 1. "Admin" taken up [from ChrisW]
15:21:02 [JeffP]
ChrisW: As Harold suggested, no move until the release of the working draft
15:21:03 [ChrisW]
zakim, close item 1
15:21:03 [Zakim]
agendum 1, Admin, closed
15:21:04 [Zakim]
I see 6 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
15:21:06 [Zakim]
2. Liason [from ChrisW]
15:21:08 [ChrisW]
zakim, next item
15:21:08 [Zakim]
agendum 2. "Liason" taken up [from ChrisW]
15:22:28 [MichaelKifer]
MichaelKifer has joined #rif
15:22:43 [JeffP]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-owl-wg/2007Oct/0066.html
15:24:05 [sandro]
That's PFPS's **DRAFT for OWL WG** of his review of BLD. It's not sent to us yet, and may change before it gets sent to us.
15:24:11 [ChrisW]
zakim, next item
15:24:11 [Zakim]
agendum 3. "F2F" taken up [from ChrisW]
15:24:29 [Zakim]
+??P13
15:24:37 [MichaelKifer]
zakim, ?P13 is me
15:24:37 [Zakim]
sorry, MichaelKifer, I do not recognize a party named '?P13'
15:24:49 [MichaelKifer]
zakim, ??P13 is me
15:24:49 [Zakim]
+MichaelKifer; got it
15:25:28 [MichaelKifer]
zakim, mute me
15:25:28 [Zakim]
MichaelKifer should now be muted
15:26:15 [JeffP]
zakim, who is talking?
15:26:26 [Zakim]
JeffP, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Sandro (18%), LeoraMorgenstern (80%)
15:26:33 [ChrisW]
zakim, next item
15:26:33 [Zakim]
agendum 4. "BLD" taken up [from ChrisW]
15:26:37 [sandro]
zakim, who is talking?
15:26:48 [Zakim]
sandro, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: csma (9%), ChrisW (80%)
15:26:55 [Harold]
Two concerns wrt early moinmoin->mediawiki conversion: 1) Loss of version history [currently versions older than 100 steps back are invisible, very likely just a moinmoin parameter]. 2) The wiki-tr tool need to be adapted [give time to try it out in mediawiki].
15:27:09 [MichaelKifer]
zakim, unmute me
15:27:09 [Zakim]
MichaelKifer should no longer be muted
15:28:47 [Harold]
http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/wiki/Core/Horn_Rules_Alternative
15:32:13 [MichaelKifer]
zakim, mute me
15:32:13 [Zakim]
MichaelKifer should now be muted
15:32:21 [csma]
q?
15:32:26 [Harold]
RESOLVED: For WD2, change structural model so that Forall, Implies, and Atomic are three parallel subclasses of RULE (as shown on Christian's diagram labeled "BLD Rule: alternative")
15:35:07 [Harold]
1) For the choice ' Forall ' Var* ' ( ' CLAUSE ' ) ' we still need to capture in prose that all free CLAUSE variables should be declared in Forall's Var*.
15:35:21 [Harold]
2) For the choice CLAUSE (to the left of the '|') we obtain a duplication of formulas expressible as ' Forall ' ' ( ' CLAUSE ' ) '.
15:35:28 [Harold]
3) For the choice CLAUSE we are also dependent on the Prolog convention.
15:35:50 [JeffP]
ChrisW: What is the new information?
15:36:26 [JeffP]
(can we have an email explaining the problem?)
15:37:12 [JeffP]
Action: Harold to move this into the document
15:38:23 [JeffP]
Action: Harold to freeze the BLD editor's draft
15:39:01 [rifbot]
rifbot has joined #rif
15:39:02 [rifbot]
Tracking ISSUEs and ACTIONs from http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/track/
15:39:34 [JeffP]
Action: sandro and csma to move the action into the tracker
15:39:34 [rifbot]
Created ACTION-357 - And csma to move the action into the tracker [on Sandro Hawke - due 2007-10-23].
15:40:17 [JeffP]
action 355: complete
15:40:33 [JeffP]
Action 354 continue
15:41:01 [DaveReynolds]
Action 356 done: see http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/track/issues/42
15:41:01 [PaulVincent]
PaulVincent has joined #rif
15:41:21 [JeffP]
Action 353 continue
15:41:29 [MichaelKifer]
zakim, unmute me
15:41:29 [Zakim]
MichaelKifer should no longer be muted
15:43:10 [Zakim]
+??P0
15:43:30 [JeffP]
Action 352 closed
15:43:55 [AxelPolleres]
350 is done: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2007Sep/0184.html
15:43:58 [JeffP]
Action 351 continue
15:44:28 [JeffP]
Actions 349 continue
15:44:35 [JeffP]
Action 348 complete
15:45:13 [JeffP]
Action 350 pending discussion
15:46:58 [JeffP]
zakim, who is talking?
15:47:08 [Zakim]
JeffP, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: csma (5%), MichaelKifer (34%)
15:47:35 [JeffP]
zakim, mute MichaelKifer
15:47:35 [Zakim]
MichaelKifer should now be muted
15:47:56 [JeffP]
Action 347 complete
15:48:06 [JeffP]
Action 346 continue
15:50:39 [JeffP]
Action 342 pending discussion
15:51:19 [ChrisW]
http://www.jdrew.org/rif/wd2/
15:52:26 [JeffP]
ChrisW: which one is the BLD?
15:53:00 [JeffP]
(six documents available from the above link)
15:53:29 [JeffP]
http://www.jdrew.org/rif/wd2/RIFPosHorn.xsd is BLD?
15:56:02 [JeffP]
csma: Which one is the complete one?
15:57:04 [JeffP]
sandro: put it in appendix and a stable W3C URL
15:57:59 [JeffP]
Action: Harold to move the complete one into the appendix
15:57:59 [rifbot]
Created ACTION-358 - Move the complete one into the appendix [on Harold Boley - due 2007-10-23].
15:59:55 [JeffP]
csma: People should read and comment the schema
15:59:59 [ChrisW]
zakim, next item
15:59:59 [Zakim]
agendum 5. "Arch - naming conventions" taken up [from ChrisW]
16:00:21 [JeffP]
csma: should have been removed (?)
16:00:47 [ChrisW]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2007Oct/0053.html
16:00:52 [JeffP]
Topic: Requirements for Arch
16:01:22 [csma]
zakim, mute me
16:01:22 [Zakim]
csma should now be muted
16:01:47 [JeffP]
sandro: three questions as numbered
16:03:27 [Harold]
We could also talk here about RIF Dialect Structure: http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/wiki/Arch/RIF_Components/RIF_Dialect_Structure
16:05:58 [csma]
q+ about what Sandro means by RIF document
16:06:23 [csma]
q+ to ask what Sandro means by RIF document
16:07:11 [csma]
ack csma
16:07:12 [Zakim]
csma, you wanted to ask what Sandro means by RIF document
16:11:23 [Harold]
A Horn dialect has somewhat different semantics for a rule P(...) :- Q(...) than an extension with strong negation, where that same rule also 'means' its contraposition ~Q(...) :- ~P(...).
16:11:25 [Harold]
q+
16:11:36 [DaveReynolds]
q+
16:11:38 [csma]
zakim, mute me
16:11:38 [Zakim]
csma should now be muted
16:12:03 [JeffP]
q?
16:12:08 [JeffP]
ack Harold
16:12:47 [csma]
Normal forms!
16:13:08 [AxelPolleres]
q+
16:13:14 [DaveReynolds]
ack me
16:13:16 [JeffP]
sandro: not sure the answer yet
16:13:29 [JeffP]
q?
16:13:43 [JeffP]
DaveR: what about built-ins?
16:14:48 [csma]
q+
16:14:53 [JeffP]
q?
16:15:01 [ChrisW]
ack axel
16:15:02 [JeffP]
ack AxelPolleres
16:15:02 [sandro]
Sandro: Good question Harold. You could use different syntax. Otherwise there's a challenge as to how to do this.
16:15:08 [JeffP]
q?
16:16:06 [csma]
ack csma
16:16:49 [sandro]
compare: Arch vs Component Library
16:17:30 [csma]
zakim, mute me
16:17:30 [Zakim]
csma should now be muted
16:17:37 [sandro]
Component Library is a way to implement No-Conflict and Max-Reuse?
16:17:44 [JeffP]
ChrisW: any other comments?
16:17:49 [MichaelKifer]
zakim, mute me
16:17:49 [Zakim]
MichaelKifer was already muted, MichaelKifer
16:17:49 [Harold]
Sandro, as I just reponded to Axel, we could keep the same syntax and construct a hierarchy of semantics (see Michael's lattice diagram).
16:17:59 [MichaelKifer]
zakim, unmute me
16:17:59 [Zakim]
MichaelKifer should no longer be muted
16:18:00 [JeffP]
sandro: Michael sent some comments ...
16:18:32 [JeffP]
... blue arrows, syntactic sugar?
16:18:46 [JeffP]
MichaelK: yes
16:18:46 [AxelPolleres]
I think that the contraposition issue can exactly be addressed with the definition of "loose layering" from Jos, mentioned in this mail: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2007Oct/0056.html
16:19:17 [JeffP]
MichaelK: frames are syntactic sugar
16:19:34 [JeffP]
sandro: I would like to have cheap and easy syntactic sugar
16:19:57 [JeffP]
MichaelK: we need to think about the scenarios
16:19:59 [Harold]
The semantics of extension dialects can extend the meaning of syntactic constructs in base dialects.
16:20:23 [csma]
q+
16:21:41 [JeffP]
(bye)
16:21:48 [AxelPolleres]
AxelPolleres has left #rif
16:21:58 [Zakim]
-AxelPolleres
16:22:31 [JeffP]
q?
16:22:35 [JeffP]
ack csma
16:22:45 [MichaelKifer]
zakim, mute me
16:22:45 [Zakim]
MichaelKifer should now be muted
16:24:15 [JeffP]
sandro: we were talking about another kind of round-tripping
16:25:04 [GaryHallmark]
the most important round-tripping is using RIF as a document storage format
16:25:50 [csma]
+1 to gary
16:25:55 [JeffP]
Topic: test cases
16:26:08 [JeffP]
http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/wiki/Arch/Test_Cases
16:26:25 [JeffP]
csma: just a subject that we never discussed
16:26:33 [JeffP]
... Dave did some early work on this
16:27:01 [JeffP]
... maybe we should pick it up again now
16:27:29 [Harold]
We have a three early test cases from the examples of the paper, e.g. http://www.jdrew.org/rif/wd2/RIFPosHornExample.rif
16:28:10 [JeffP]
sandro: a query syntax or see the print result
16:28:11 [Harold]
s/a three/three/
16:28:22 [AdrianP]
zakim, unmute me
16:28:22 [Zakim]
AdrianP should no longer be muted
16:28:30 [JeffP]
csma: seems that the print approach is easier
16:28:41 [JeffP]
q?
16:28:56 [AdrianP]
q+
16:29:02 [PaulVincent]
+1 to test fn for print
16:29:03 [Harold]
I think Query is needed anyway.
16:29:13 [JeffP]
ack AdrianP
16:29:22 [GaryHallmark]
query sounds right for BLD, print "action" for PRD
16:30:19 [JeffP]
+1 for query sounds right for BLD, print "action" for PRD
16:30:21 [Harold]
Actually, we already have a Query language: the BLD Condition Language. Let's use it for test cases!
16:30:59 [JeffP]
(we are ruunig out of time)
16:31:32 [csma]
zakim, mute me
16:31:32 [Zakim]
csma should now be muted
16:31:35 [Harold]
Jeff, I also agree with the bit about print "action" for PRD.
16:31:39 [DaveReynolds]
+1 to Sandro, all that semantics is part of the dialect
16:31:44 [PaulaP]
one possibility would be to list all facts (data items) entailed by the program
16:31:52 [JeffP]
ChrisW: AOB?
16:31:56 [csma]
scribe
16:31:57 [csma]
scribe
16:31:58 [Zakim]
-MichaelKifer
16:31:59 [csma]
scribe
16:32:00 [Zakim]
-Harold
16:32:03 [PaulaP]
bye
16:32:06 [Zakim]
-LeoraMorgenstern
16:32:08 [AdrianP]
http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/wiki/Rule_Interchange_Through_Test-Driven_Verification_and_Validation
16:32:08 [Zakim]
-StellaMitchell
16:32:09 [PaulVincent]
bye
16:32:09 [Zakim]
-Gary_Hallmark
16:32:11 [Zakim]
-PaulaP
16:32:12 [ChrisW]
rrsagent, make minutes
16:32:12 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/10/16-rif-minutes.html ChrisW
16:32:13 [Zakim]
-Sandro
16:32:14 [Zakim]
-DaveReynolds
16:32:16 [Zakim]
-PaulVincent
16:32:18 [ChrisW]
zakim, list attendees
16:32:18 [Zakim]
As of this point the attendees have been DaveReynolds, ChrisW, +49.892.1.aaaa, PaulaP, Harold, StellaMitchell, Sandro, csma, +012242aabb, JeffP, +49.351.6.aacc, AdrianP,
16:32:21 [Zakim]
... AxelPolleres, LeoraMorgenstern, Gary_Hallmark, MichaelKifer, PaulVincent
16:32:24 [Zakim]
-AdrianP
16:32:26 [ChrisW]
rrsagent, make minutes
16:32:26 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/10/16-rif-minutes.html ChrisW
16:32:29 [csma]
zakim, unmute me
16:32:29 [Zakim]
csma should no longer be muted
16:32:47 [ChrisW]
Regrets: JosDeBruijn, IgorMozetic, AllenGinsberg
16:32:49 [ChrisW]
rrsagent, make minutes
16:32:50 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/10/16-rif-minutes.html ChrisW
16:33:15 [csma]
zakim, who is on the phone?
16:33:15 [Zakim]
On the phone I see ChrisW, csma, JeffP
16:34:11 [Zakim]
-JeffP
16:35:23 [Zakim]
-ChrisW
16:35:24 [Zakim]
-csma
16:35:26 [Zakim]
SW_RIF()11:00AM has ended
16:35:27 [Zakim]
Attendees were DaveReynolds, ChrisW, +49.892.1.aaaa, PaulaP, Harold, StellaMitchell, Sandro, csma, +012242aabb, JeffP, +49.351.6.aacc, AdrianP, AxelPolleres, LeoraMorgenstern,
16:35:29 [Zakim]
... Gary_Hallmark, MichaelKifer, PaulVincent
16:36:31 [csma]
csma has left #rif