Minutes Telecon 2019-08-07
- The new charter will go before W3C management next week. Anyone who would like to review should do so soon and open any issues on github.
- Resolved: Default behavior for all images to respect EXIF orientation (Issue #4165: Should CSS decorative images respect EXIF-orientation by default)
- The last few edits will go into the CSS Images spec next week with the plan of requesting publication next call
- Resolved: If multiple layers exist with text-shadows we draw them all (Issue #3932: Need for clarification on how ::selection text-shadows work)
- Resolved: Background on a highlight layer paints over shadows on layers below (Issue #3932)
- There was concern with the background overpainting leading to ugly results when the background is smaller then the text-shadows below it. If there is more information that this will be a real problem the group will revisit the resolution.
- The group agreed not to use ‘weight’ for issue #4138 (Rename `text-decoration-thickness` to `text-decoration-weight`?) however there wasn’t agreement between ‘thickness’ and ‘width’. There is one shipped implementation using ‘thickness’ however ‘width’ is more consistent with other CSS properties. An on call straw poll had a slight majority leaning no change/’thickness’ however before resolving the question will be asked again with more people on the call.
- fantasai will draft proposed text for issue #4134 (What happens to the wavy & double lines when `text-decoration-thickness` is applied?) that will give general guidelines that wavy and double lines must scale, but not giving specific sizes.
Full Meeting Minutes
Minutes Telecon 2019-07-31
- Work is being done on the new charter. The document is available here and issues are being created in the charter github
- Resolved: Accept proposal [to change the initial value of ‘image-orientation’ to from-image] with an added note current solution is experimental and may change (Issue #3799: Consider changing initial value of ‘image-orientation’ to from-image)
- The proposed text for issue #1984 (Specify fallback behavior when replaced or background image content not available) will be edited to specifically call out the interstitial state between image swaps. Myles will have his team review the text and then the group will try and resolve on the next call.
- Resolved: Treat fragment only URLs as only elements, never images (Issue #383: Ambiguities in handling
url)
- Resolved: Change requirements from ‘should’ to ‘must’ (Issue #383)
- Resolved: Add the edits in the Ambiguous URLs section (Issue #383)
- After the group resolves on issue #1984 there will be a call to republish CSS Images
- Resolved: Don’t invent new
.type values for future rules; recommend usage of .constructor.name (Issue #4142: Can we start ignoring CSSRule.type?)
- Resolved: Align scrolling behavior of
visibility:hidden with visible descendants for overflow:scroll to behave the same as overflow:hidden (Issue #4113: Should a visibility:hidden overflow:scroll be scrollable?)
Full Meeting Minutes
Minutes Telecon 2019-07-17
- Issue #3993 (
text-decoration-width claims to be a sub-property of text-decoration, but text-decoration disagrees) should be addressed once the text-decor-3 text is edited into L4
- Resolved: Always draw the underline even if it’s specified to be outside a limit we choose [meaning that even if we clamp the underline we won’t clip it] (Issue #4059)
- The discussion on if there should be a clamp on text-underline-offset (and by extension strikethrough and overline offset) continued without resolution. There were three options to pick from:
- No clamping
- Wide clamping
- Narrow clamping
- The argument for no clamping is that there shouldn’t be restrictions on the designs people produced.
- The argument for wide clamping is to avoid design restrictions but also limit performance and implementation difficulties.
- The argument for narrow clamping to avoid the underline being used to replace a strikethrough or overline. There’s a desire to hear from the a11y working group on their views about this concern.
- A straw poll was taken of the three options, but there was no clear winner between the three options.
- As the meeting drew to a close there was discussion to understanding more specifics about the limits intended when the group spoke of wide vs narrow clamping. The offered more specific details were:
- Limit is super-far, based on how big can you draw a box and things like that
- Medium-range, like 6-10 lines – enough for author to notice that there’s clamping, but not particularly restrictive
- Short-range, 1-2 line boxes, tries to keep the line with the next, not overlapping the adjacent lines
- Resolved: Tabs do not hang and you can break between for
white-space:break-spaces (Issue #3869: pre-wrap and tabs at the end of the line)
- Resolved: For
white-space:pre-wrap tabs hang like spaces do (Issue #3869)
Full Meeting Minutes
Minutes Telecon 2019-07-10
- Resolved: For interpolation math functions are treated as atomic algebraic terms. You interpolate a calc expression that is the weighted sum of all the terms. (Issue #4082: How to interpolate min/max/clamp?)
- Resolved: Add section to CSS images defining computed value of an image type. This value has colors links and lengths all made absolute per usual computed value rules for those sub types and fix specs referring to images to make sure use correct language. (Issue #4042: Computed gradient colors)
- Resolved: SVG elements generating CSS layout boxes are included as part of resize observer and resize observer rectangles with a definition [for layout box] of `
svg:root, *:not(svg|*) > SVG, SVG|foreignObject > SVG { /* SVG elements with CSS layout box */} (Issue #4032: SVG Interaction)
- Discussion on issue #4059 (Limits on text-underline-offset to preserve semantic meaning):
- There continued to be concern about text-underline-offset being used in place of a strikethrough. This could lead to problems in styling with browsers that have not fully implemented the property as well as discrepancies between what is visually presented and what’s in the a11y tree.
- One possible way to prevent the strikethrough case is to ensure that authors have just as much style control on overlines and strikethroughs so that there is no incentive to misuse an underline.
- The other option presented was to clamp at a mid-point in the text so that it can’t get to the point where it looks like a strikethrough.
- The other argument for clamping was to ensure that the underline was visually presented in near proximity to the text it is underlining.
- This lead to an argument that clamping shouldn’t be done at all since box-shadows can end up anywhere in the document, not just in close proximity to the box, and therefore limiting the text-underline-offset will limit flexibility in design. Changing a value and not having it change on screen is often a bad authoring experience.
- Since there were several different opinions on where to clamp as well as some arguments that we shouldn’t be clamping at all, discussion will continue on github.
Full Meeting Minutes
Minutes Toronto F2F 2019-06-05 Part II: CSS Color 5; CSS Text 4; Backgrounds and Borders; Color Adjust; Media Queries
CSS Color 5
- Resolved: Put all the proposals into css-color-5, ChrisL and future Una as editors
- Resolved: Rename to put ‘color’ first, adjust-color -> color-mod
- Resolved: Add color-contrast without currentBackground option
- Question of “is computed value a color or a contrast-color”?
- Resolved: Add color-mix, try to align syntax with cross-fade
- Resolved: Put both color adjustment proposals into css-color-5, with keywords instead of underscores for Lea’s proposal
- Resolved: Add Lea Verou as editor of css-color-5
Full Minutes || Spec Referenced
CSS Text 4
- Resolved: Add Florian as editor of css-text-4
Full Minutes || Spec Referenced
Backgrounds and Borders
- Resolved: Drop the less useful values [notch & scoop], and rename [bevel -> angle] as proposed in the issue (Issue #3457: Borders with cut corners)
Full Minutes || Spec Referenced
Color Adjust
- Resolved: Add a note to color-scheme to warn authors that dark and light modes are not necessarily black and white colors, and that if they are specifying any of their own colors they should specify enough colors to satisfy WCAG requirements (with a link) (Issue #3983: Clearly define what ‘light’ and ‘dark’ mean)
- There was heavy disagreement as to if the spec should also include a note that both foreground and background should be specified in pairs. Due to the lack of consensus the pairs section of text was not added to the spec.
- There was support for allowing prefers-color-scheme to expose subsets of color-scheme in the future. Without user agents expressing a desire to implement any additional color schemes it was decided that it was too early to add this to spec and instead it was important to avoid writing spec text that would prevent this in the future.
- Resolved: No change (Issue #3853: Future
custom-ident value sepia)
Full Minutes || Spec Referenced
Media Queries
- There was disagreement on the purpose of the no-preference value for prefers-color-scheme (Issue #3857: UA guidance on light vs no-preference).
- Part of the group argued that the default state of the web is no-preference where designers create their own look, but the other side said that a majority of the web is already light so the reality is the default would equal light already.
- Windows has three options for color schemes (light, dark, system default), but macOS only has two (light and dark)
- There was concern that three values would lead to designers feeling the need to create color schemes instead of two (rather than letting no-preference share with either light or dark).
Full Minutes || Spec Referenced
Minutes Toronto F2F 2019-06-05 Part I: CSS Text; Writing Modes; CSS Inline
CSS Text
- Florian presented a proposal to add space expansion properties to CSS to address use cases for languages that do not usually use spaces, but occasionally still want them.
- This would function similar to a text-transform when interacting with justification and word spacing.
- There was a desire to have a separation in properties between when spaces should be expanded manually vs automatically since those were different use cases.
- Resolved: Add zero-width-space-expansion to Text 4, plan to rename
- Resolved: Add manual vs automatic space expansion property (name and values TBD) to Text 4
- Resolved: Add a note to the spec about considering not hyphenating proper nouns, but no normative changes (Issue #3927: hyphens:auto should not hyphenate Capitalized words)
- Issue #3745 (Add new CSS text-transform values for math) will be deferred to TPAC when accessibility experts can be a part of the conversation as well as spend time to see if it’s possible to decouple the style and the markup accessibility
Full Minutes Part I and Full Minutes Part II || Spec Referenced
Writing Modes
- Resolved: Propagate direction, and writing mode from the body to the root without affecting computed styles w/optional text-orientation (Issue #3066: Does vertical writing mode of an HTML body element cause an orthogonal flow?)
Full Minutes || Spec Referenced
CSS Inline
- Discussion of issue #3749 (resolved value of line-height) didn’t lead to a resolution but several people had actions to move the topic forward:
- florian will take some of the edits removed from CSS2.1 during the clean up of that spec and will add them to the Inline L3 spec.
- emilio will experiment with having Gecko return normal and see if it causes web compat issues.
Full Minutes || Spec Referenced
Minutes Toronto F2F 2019-06-04 Part II: CSS Fonts; CSS Multicol; CSS Sizing; CSS Display and UI
CSS Fonts
- Resolved: Remove min-font-size and max-font-size from Fonts 4, replace with an example of using clamp() to handle safe responsive typography. (Issue #3739: font-min/max-size and computed value)
- A note will be added to Fonts spec about the font-size: 0px vs min font-size web-compat issue
- Resolved: Capture that font-size keywords carry an additional bit of information having some (unspecified) interaction with some font families. (Issue #3906: Clarify how computed font-size is determined for size keyword)
- Resolved: François does compat research on the effect of font-size keywords and generic font-families, and report back on interop. (Issue #3906)
- Discussion on the request to add math-script-level and math-style properties to CSS (Issue #3746) became a wider topic about the best way to support math on the web.
- There is a request for more examples and more of a sense of scope of the larger issue leading to these properties to allow the group to ensure that they’re building properties in the right way.
- Without the full understanding it’s unclear if some aspects of this, e.g. the ‘script level’, need to be encoded as information in the DOM rather than in CSS (so that they can be selected against).
- CSS and the MathML group need to establish a standard approach to communication going forward so that specs can stay aligned.
- Before any final decisions the meta topic of the future of MathML needs to be addressed. There are three possible futures that need to be evaluated in order to decide the path forward:
- MathML is in browser engines, CSS has to be compatible with what it is.
- MathML is in browser engines, but we might make substantial changes as we develop and can adjust it to fit with CSS better.
- MathML isn’t the right path forward, and math should be taking a new path forward.
Full Minutes || Spec Referenced
CSS Multicol
- Resolved: Column-gap percentages no longer at-risk. Add some tests to WPT. (Issue #3988: Remove at-risk marker for percentages in column-gap)
- Resolved: Keep a section to explain how column-gap works in multicol, but define in box-alignment only (and link between them) (Issue #3641: Should we refer to definition of `column-gap` in Box Alignment?)
Full Minutes || Spec Referenced
CSS Sizing
- Resolved: cbiesinger will document Chrome’s behavior and we will revisit (Issue #3973: Why was min-content redefined to do nothing on the block axis?)
Full Minutes || Spec Referenced
CSS Display and UI
- Resolved: Outline of ‘display: contents’ is propagated to children for painting (for a11y on focus); implementers should give feedback on it (Issue #3323: Should outline apply to elements with display:contents)
Full Minutes || Specs Referenced: CSS Display and CSS UI
Minutes Toronto F2F 2019-06-04 Part I: Selectors 3; Upcoming F2F; Publish Early, Publish Often; Tables 3
Selectors 3
- Resolved: Draft
:muted, :seeking, and :stalled pseudos. (Issue #3821: Additional resource state pseudo-classes for media elements)
- The definitions of exactly when these apply needs work.
- There was a desire to also have the ability to style for a buffering state, but there was no clear HTML property to hook into for that case.
- Resolved: Add
:volume-locked. (Issue #3933: “effective media volume is mutable” pseudo-class for media elements)
- There was some further discussion of merging :volume-locked and
:muted into a functional :volume pseudo-class.
- There is still feedback that implementing
:has will not be easy or performant. There was some suggestion of breaking off a more limited section like has-child but that causes concern that it’ll lead to 50 different pseudos to do everything scoped into :has
- The issue to allow for styling of password reveal via a pseudo-element and pseudo-class (Issue #3934) generated a lot of discussion around usage. The class matches the control as a whole when the password is revealed and the element matches the icon to click in order to see the password.
- The use case for the element is to allow the show password icon to be consistent with branding, however that raised concerns that it would train users to put passwords in any type of yield instead of only password ones.
- There was an additional use case to detect if a browser will already insert the symbol.
- There are other use cases beyond passwords that are by default hidden and may want a show option, such as CVV fields. One argument was that these should be considered password fields.
- This proposal needs to be considered in conjunction with the previous resolutions for input-security to come up with one consistent approach, even if it means changing the original input-security resolution from last year.
- This proposal also needs to be considered in conjunction with other use cases for widgets and icons inside the input field, e.g. for clearing the input or annotating validation state.
Full Minutes || Spec Referenced
Upcoming F2F
- Resolved: Jan 22-24 for A Coruña meeting, pending final approval from Igalia.
- Apple has offered to host the Spring 2020 meeting
Full Minutes
Publish Early, Publish Often
- Resolved: Allow editors to publish at-will, under the discussed caveats. (Caveats: This can only be done when the only changes are non-normative/editorial and non-controversial OR the group already approved the exact wording. This only applies to WDs, not anything higher in the REC track. When this occurs the author must include it in the changes section with a link to the diff and send an email to www-style about the publication.)
Full Minutes
Tables 3
- Resolved: Publish new WD of Tables 3 with the reviewed changes.
Full Minutes || Spec Referenced
Minutes Telecon 2019-07-03
- There was some confusion on what properties are included in the resolution for issue #3804 (Resolved: add the original list of colors from TabAtkins and fantasai as well as Field, FieldText and ActiveText). melanierichards will draft a PR for chris to review and add to the spec.
- Resolved: Take what we’re calling image-p3 in our spec and rename it to display-p3 (Issue #4056)
- Resolved: Leave undefined for now and add a note explaining why [it’s undefined] (Issue #4004: Should option/optgroup be able to set counters?)
- Resolved: Add an ‘auto’ value (Issue #4074: Initial value of quotes should be auto)
- The group was interested in discussing a more exact definition of the new ‘auto’ value to try and get an interoperable value that roundtrips.
- Resolved: Add back in the overflow for DOMMatrix readonly to the DOMMatric constructor (FXTF Issue #346)
- Issue #4026 (Need to define the list of calculations that require a definite inline space) needs to be reviewed before Writing Modes can continue its path toward REC.
Full Meeting Minutes
Minutes Telecon 2019-06-26
- There is a resolution to republish Syntax 3 already, all that’s left to do is update the DoC before sending the request
- The proposal to have column-fill behave more similar in paginated and continuous contexts (Issue #4036) ran into conflicting compat concerns where one solution would break pdf viewer to print and the other would break webpage to print scenarios. On the call the group agreed that the way to solve both compat concerns is to rollback the resolution in Issue #3224 (Improve column-fill and make it backward-compatible). Not everyone involved in the discussion of both 3224 and 4036 were on the call so discussion will continue on GitHub.
- Resolved: Update the spec so positive offsets are outward from the text (Issue #4021: text-decoration level 4 clarification on text-underline-offset positive/negative lengths)
- myles mentioned that in Safari’s implementation of text-underline-offset there was a clamp so that the underline didn’t go so high that it looked like a strikethrough. The group was interested in getting this, and possibly not letting to get too low, into spec text. Issue #4059 was filed to further refine this proposal.
- There’s still not clear winner to decide Issue #3897 (Clarify whether soft breaks exist at boundaries of an inline element with `word-break:break-all`). fantasai will reach out to the i18n working group to see if they have input.
- Resolved: No change to spec [opacity can take a percent] (Issue #3342: percentage opacity)
- Resolved: No change to spec [computed value includes missing autos] (Issue #2574: Computed value of background-size includes missing autos)
- There needs to be a note in a centralized location clarifying that computed value is not the same as specified values and detailing the different purpose and usage.
Full Meeting Minutes
![[Photo: group photo of the CSS working group in San Francisco]](/Style/CSS/csswg-2016.jpg)
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