Meeting minutes
ARIA attribute reflection
ARIA attribute reflection
annevk: there is this mismatch between ARIA and HTML because none of them are defined as enumerated attributes
annevk: tthere was a discussion on Monday, people involved probably already know next steps, can skip it here maybe
matatk: I thought quesiton would be about cross root referencing
<matatk> w3ctag/
matatk: general problem with that issue, that Lea and Jeffrey raised, about referencing to elements in general
matatk: with mix of people in the room you may have thoughts
jyasskin: solution that was raised my solve it for ARIA too
matatk: ok we'll look at the minutes
Symbols
<jyasskin> The session I mentioned: w3c/
matatk: problem we're trying to solve: some people want symbols to better understand what's on the page
janina: these people have used symbols for ages, before the internet
<Fazio> watch the Theory of everything. Stephen Hawking used them to communicate
janina: that are not intereropable… we're talking 100s of 1000s of people
janina: we probably can't markup everything on the web but probably can do procedures and signposts for general things
Fazio: to understand how important this is… imagine Stephen Hawking not being able to communicate… when he got ill he learned how to communicate without speaking through physical symbols
janina: Cambridge University hired somebody to voice him because he was important
Fazio: and Intel sponsored him
<Fazio> Also known as Alternative Augmentative Communication (AAC)
matatk: the card [we just handed out] has symbols on both sides that signify the same concepts but they are different and people's preferences differ
matatk: the kind of killer app we're targeting to start with… people who need symbols to help them understand things will read text, but symbols give them context
matatk: they come to the web for video content as it is easier to take in in general
matatk: so the sorts of things we're looking to add symbols to is @@@
<hdv> s/.@@@/chapters
<past> https://
<Adam_Page> https://
matatk: our idea is to have an attribute that somehow authors use, they set the attribute to indicate the concept they're trying to show
matatk: the concept is how we'll map to different symbol sets
matatk: eg symbol for the concept of cooking is diffferent in different symbol sets
matatk: the number of symbols is 0 if target set doesn't have a symbol for it
janina: kind of like how a word is made up of letters
<Fazio> Most widely used AAC symbols: https://
matatk: we're not experts on AAC but we work with an organisation whose dictionary of concepts we use
matatk: because they maintain this dictionary of concepts, which is more comprehensive than other symbol sets, we went to them… we're not using it in a language or translation sense
matatk: in the future we want it to be the symbol set that the user wants
matatk: we don't know the number of the symbol, only once we know which symbol set they use
matatk: we've had a number of approaches suggested
matatk: when we started this, we had an attribute… the thing is how to we key in to the dictionary that bliss gives us
matatk: originally we had their concept ID, which is just an integer
matatk: each concept has an id
matatk: we had a long running issue where people were suggesting that as a subset of bliss is going into Unicode we should use Unicode
matatk: bliss is also a well known organisation but not globally
matatk: bliss has about 1400 chars going to Unicode, but many more that aren't
matatk: if you want to represent some concept, you can't just look up the Unicode code point and look that up directly
matatk: at that point you're asking the author to know about bliss
annevk: versions are an established thing in the Unicode world; eg if you have like a wavy hand, you can give it a skin tone
matatk: taking that idea; if it was rendered as a character it could look like that character
annevk: I wonder if that can be addressed through fonts
matatk: lots of symbol sets are pictures
<Fazio> Keep in mind, to be useful users wouldn't use individual symbols they would combine symbols to illustrate a though or sentence or action
annevk: fonts these days are pictures too
matatk: but sometimes a symbol is one thing to the user but @@@
jyasskin: can do with fonts but depends
Adam_Page: yes with ligatures
jyasskin: so they can combine multiple things
jyasskin: so is technically possible, not necessarily best way but is possible
Fazio: user would not necessarily press a button with symbol on a website but would sometimes press the button on their AAC device… ideally would use a number of symbols to convey an action
Fazio: I don't know if that's possible with what we're talking about
annevk: that's more like an input method
matatk: good context of how folks communicate, we're doing the other way around
matatk: they want to know what each is about
janina: i think we'll get that when we talk to rtc
annevk: this illustrates to me how important it is to get this into Unicode, given how widespread Unicode is and how core it is to how we communicate
annevk: if we don't take it to Unicode and do it in markup, you get the same problem as @@@ eg with Japanese
annevk: given how vital it is to this community it is important to make sure it is in Unicode
janina: it's on its way into Unicode
annevk: but only a subset
matatk: effort to get bliss into Unicode has been mostly building blocks for making bliss symbols… some are in there because they are simple
matatk: what goes into Unicode is not the whole dictionary
janina: enough to communicate the concepts for rendering
matatk: we looked at this, from authoring perspective is possible to use Unicode
matatk: let me show an indication of what an authoring tool may be like. W3C made a registry of what this could look like
<Roy> https://
[shares authoring tool on screen]
annevk: this could be solved with an input method, eg just like how you enter Japanese on a phone
zcorpan: Unicode is the correct layering in my opinion, should focus your efforts to get everything into Unicode and not HTML
zcorpan: if Unicode is too slow, use custom elements or a polyfill or something. I think it doesn't make sense to add it into HTML as well as into Unicode
annevk: I agree
<Zakim> jyasskin, you wanted to ask about word names for the concepts
zcorpan: as far as I can tell it supports technically what you want to do
jyasskin: agree Unicode is the right place… feel it's similar to ruby but not exactly… the attribute that says whicih one it is… I think I'd suggest to allow the input, for things that aren't in Unicode, use strings rather than numbers
jyasskin: the registry has strings
matatk: if we did that and we have a way to key into dictionary of concepts that exists… but how do we turn that into the right symbol for the user?
matatk: if we don't want to add that to HTML… are we saying we don't need an attribute to mark up the concepts? where do we put the key?
annevk: if you have one of these characters… what you're asking for… there are two users where one would want to see one symbol and the other multiple… is that what we're trying to cater for?
anenvk: I think it could be as simple as using a diferent font to display specific Unicode code points
matatk: practical thing is… how symbols industry works, they produce PNGs or SVGs… how do we cater to the fact that the format they're using is not fonts…
annevk: you can take the SVGs and put them into a font files
PaulG: only works if there are no heteronyms… how can a ligature font tell the diff between life and live?
PaulG: eg which word is it
annevk: the font counts on the unicode code points for bliss
annevk: so the font doesn't tell a difference
zcorpan: user could then even use CSS to override
PaulG: ah ok so author would author the code points
annevk: yes and then it's just a setting in the font somewhere
PaulG: we have to hide that from AT as screenreaders or braille display would have garbage
annevk: presumably operating systems could add support for these code points just like they support emoji now
janina: are we suggesting that all these symbol sets should get their symbols into bliss?
annevk: no just get bliss into Unicode and map to that
zcorpan: the symbols don't need to be standardised
<Fazio> Ideally images would be universal (standardized) as much as possible
jyasskin: one thing I think I'm hearing… these symbols are alternate representations for things that are on the page
<Fazio> think internationalization
jyasskin: you need some way to tell screenreaders that they should probably skip reading the symbolic representation
jyasskin: either that's ruby or we're missing an element
Fazio: I know it's not our job to standardise what these look like, but ideally we would try to harmonise
matatk: we think we're covering that by using bliss as the basis for the concept
matatk: and then we can have symbols rendered in appropriate cultural context
matatk: so we've talked about alternative representation
matatk: it would be difficult for symbol producers to put their symbols in a font
matatk: it sounds like we could what we want with a font… want to make a proof of concept
matatk: we can prototype it with a data attribute… but we still need a place to put it for authors
<Fazio> we have an accessible sag expert if that's a prototype route we want to go
<Fazio> ?SVG not sag
matatk: ruby has been suggested and unsuggested by various people… i18n folks have said probably not use ruby
annevk: it sounds like ruby to me… would suggest use ruby
@@@: what's the argument against ruby?
matatk: see the issue… what I remember from it… it was something like that ruby is meant for Asian script and using it for this was like using it for something it was not meant for
janina: appreciate fazio's input as you lived through this
<past> w3c/
<matatk> explainer (draft): https://
fazio: yes it can very much slow people down if they cannot communicate through AAC… it's not just single images or icons, it's an active picture of what's going on
Adam_Page: probably implicit in this discussion… can see use cases where this is additional and not just alternative
Adam_Page: we have lots of icons on the HIlton website… but then allow people to swap our branded icons with these bliss icons
CharlesL: another use case is when symbols are all by themselves, not how ruby works as it is attached to specific words
CharlesL: because, like images, there might be an alt text, but in other cases there is already text there so that an alt text is not needed
annevk: right but if it's in Unicode, like with emojis, there would already be a well defined alternative
annevk: when I look at the discussion with Richard Ishida I don't see, from quick look, things that would stop us from using ruby
<Zakim> jyasskin, you wanted to mention alternatives to "fonts"
<JenStrickland> It's important to not make it too complicated, or people won't do it.
jyasskin: I think there are different semantics these symbols can used with… as a primary representation, or as text in a flow, or as an explanation (that might be ruby)… it sounded like there is a third semantic too… I'd encourage you to list the semantis adn that can drive what we'd pick
jyasskin: we have a mechanism in fonts that drive type of font, pre defined font setes like monospace/bold… operating systems have ways to configure those
jyasskin: if it's not fonts maybe it can be something font-like
jyasskin: there is also the author use case… where the website wants to pick the font, eg icons that are part of the branding
<jyasskin> +1 to JenStrickland
matatk: sorry that queue is closed, I'd love us to talk before the next TPAC
matatk: with some prototyping we can look at some things to see how technically feasible they are
matatk: we'd like to keep talking…
<jyasskin> s/bold.../fantasy/
Well-known destinations
<matatk> Draft explainer: https://
matatk: problem from the user's perspective… at the AC meeting earlier in the year, we proposed a technical solution for it that we knew at the time
matatk: in terms of implementation, we thought of two ways that are in the explainer
matatk: the presentation is linked from the explainer
matatk: btw this is still under construction
matatk: the Adapt TF proposes a way for a site to define popular pages they offer, this allows UA to discover which popular pages a site provides
matatk: we're talking about things like home page, product page, contact page etc
matatk: one reason we want to do this is that sites vary in what terms they use
matatk: the central thing to this is that we'd standardise a set of tokens that correspond to popular destinations that exist on a site
matatk: what might this look like from a user perspective? I made a browser extension that did this
matatk: it gives you a menu with links to these specific destinations
matatk: the destinations vary per site
matatk: looking for your suggestions on how to implement it, and querstions re the use case
<Zakim> annevk, you wanted to point out this already exists in theory and used to exist in practice (Opera did it first!)
annevk: this already exists in HTML today, the <link> element has a specified list
annevk: Opera used to have an implementation of this
annevk: similar to the UI you shared
fserb: Firefox had it as well, but with shortcuts
annevk: so maybe this is more about getting it adopted again, and maybe not a need for a new solution
annevk: the other problem is adoption
matatk: both advised solutions require rel attrs and link types, we very much try to build on what's there with both approaches we look at
zcorpan: wanted to say the same thing as Anne said
zcorpan: also… if you want to provide this UI and have it work, even if the web developer didn't use the link tag, we could still figure it out with heuristics
annevk: I saw you did consider some existing implementation
fserb: how important is it that you'd have these specific well known places with always the same semantics or that it is the most popular?
matatk: what's important on this page is a really important question, not necessarily what we look at here
matatk: DOM order, landmarks, headings also provide ways to navigate
matatk: what we're trying to provide is sign posts to particular destination, to help people who struggle with that fundamental navigation
matatk: say you go to the contact us page, for those to be highlighted
janina: and everything else greyed
janina: complexity management is a game changer for people with intellectual disabilities
matatk: what I was on queue for… I want to build on existing tech… but what we didn't find is in one HTTP request, to have a way to get that list
matatk: it's knowing that this is the definitive list that is very useful
matatk: we couldn't just do that with link elements
annevk: XML sitemaps is kind of what you're after
zcorpan: with the solution you proposed you still need the web developer to define the destination? eg we could give guidance to provide links to all pages
zcorpan: don't affect rendering because they are not visible
matatk: wouldn't that be a bit bloaty?
annevk: probably not, HTML is least significant part of page load in most cases
matatk: two things we were looking at… a special well known URI is that you can provide the list… that has the drawback that the extra bit is not in the spec… the second drawback is that well known URIs that relate to an origin, you might have sites with subsites where the scope may be tricky
matatk: we also got feedback about linksets
matatk: these allow you to give relationships between pages
matatk: it's like as if you put the link elements on each page… but you can just refer to a single document
matatk: both approaches are in the explainer, we wondered which one is better and think the second probably is
matatk: there is also the approach of putting all the links on all pages
matatk: challenge probably is encouraging people to do it
annevk: I would start out with using the link attr, and then if we want to make it easier you can talk to the web manifest people
matatk: the advantage of how we were proposing to interpret link sets was to make it easier to deal with subsits
annevk: feel like UI you want is the things relevant to that document… can't really convey UI that make sense across documents
matatk: understand where you are coming from, from user perspective, they visit a site and want to know it for that site
annevk: trying to convey that info beforehand user would need to go to sitemap and explore how it is built
matatk: we can ask the COGA TF
annevk: we have link rel accessibility
<PaulG> RDF+json (similar to linksets) seems like a good match for the semantics and extensibility but asking authors to generate/maintain a second sitemap seems problematic. Shoving the metadata into the sitemap seems to break the "single use" doctrine because it's main focus is SEO and not helping users find resources.
zcorpan: I think sitemaps are actually used by sites
zcorpan: don't know if websites typically link to sitemaps from markup or if it is a well known location
matatk: if we do something some way and it only uses standard, we can make it more efficient
hdv: One of the goals of EU regs is for sites to include an accessibility statement
… Helps people know where to go for the info or to file the complaint.
… This is a good use case
<Zakim> matatk, you wanted to ask about highlighting the relevant bit on the page (semantically)
matatk: one of our TF participant did say to include a11y statements
matatk: so far everything we talked about we can actually do
matatk: if I've gone to the login page and I want to highlight that page, some of our users would need that type of direction, would we need an attribute, that we can prototype with `data-*`, is that feasible to prototype?
janina: so highlight the login portion of page and grey out everything else
Adam_Page: so more than a deeplink you highlight the part of the page?
annevk: what if you have single long document?
annevk: would you set it dynamically?
<PaulG> Chrome's text fragment linking seems like the right path forward. I'd push back against "supressing" a portion of the UI
matatk: destination would take avalue
nathan: I understand the use case of an extention as how people interact with it, eg voiceover rotor, would be cool if you could navigate that in the AT you're already using
matatk: love the idea, a lot of people with cognitive barriers don't use an AT, so can't be the only way
<Fazio> Lookup doorway effect and how it effects short term memory
zcorpan: for highlighting the destination… do you envision the website providing that?
matatk: website would provide the landing zone
zcorpan: could the website also be responsible for the highlight thing
zcorpan: if so we could have link targets, and use the target pseudo class in CSS, incl graying out everything else
<Fazio> The doorway effect is a phenomenon that occurs when people forget information after passing through a doorway or when switching between contexts, such as opening a new tab on a computer. The effect is caused by the brain's tendency to discard information when it encounters a change in context, and is thought to be a subconscious
zcorpan: we started with looking at well known links, but with fragments, you're absolutely right we can do that
Fazio: important because of the doorway effect
Fazio: when you forget what you've just odne
Fazio: also happens when you go from one web page to another or between screens, see also the link I posted
matatk: thanks everyone, this is super helpful. How do we keep talking to you?
annevk: variety of ways, always good to start with an issue, generally html repo or if it is very generic our meta repo
annevk: then we have a pointer
annevk: we also have a weekly call that you are welcome to join
annevk: if there are many issues we can also do a dedicated people.
annevk: we can also join your meeting provided timing works out
annevk: can be a bit trickier to get timing to work out for all of the WHATWG folks
annevk: we also have a matrix instance where you can ask questions and have a mostly asynchronous convo, sometimes synchronous