Cognitive and Learning Disabilities Accessibility Task Force Teleconference

23 February 2023


Jennie, julierawe, ShawnT

Meeting minutes

(group spent a few minutes discussing the possibility of using captions for minutes)

COGA subgroup page: https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/task-forces/coga/wiki/Subgroups

Lisa: I am asking subgroup leaders to send out reminders about their meetings a few days ahead.
… I will be doing an orientation call after Monday's meeting

Eric: I work with Kiki!

Shawn: We decided to talk about a possibly new KPI for this group.
… When I started with the subgroup, I thought it would be hands on testing of the patterns
… and not specifically how to test for Cognitive and Learning Disabilities

<ShawnT> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1adgZ4cFT3xu8x_MDoBQ5SESQngasj8En/edit#

Shawn: This is the working document we have, being shared on Google drive

Lisa: There was a good conversation during the main group a couple of weeks ago.
… You brought the concept of changing the KPI.
… The consensus of the big group is we want also to look at the big picture issues such as how to build conformance
… Such as having enough diversity in your testing group, or focus groups, and in your specifications and user needs.
… The strong consensus of the main group is not to get rid of the KPI.
… The direction they were comfortable with was having 2 subgroups.
… If you and Jennie want to focus on a task, that is fine
… And anyone else in the group that wants to start thinking about the process, can work on that
… And we can recruit if needed, for others to support this.
… The group is comfortable with you working on the specific testing.
… There was not consensus for dropping the broader ideas for how to test this document.

Shawn: That was not my impression.

Lisa: That is why we have minutes.

<lisa> https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/task-forces/coga/minutes

<ShawnT> https://www.w3.org/2023/02/06-coga-minutes

I think it is this one


Shawn: (reviewed the current KPI)
… Jennie and I focused on the "at least 10 patterns have edge casses drafted and discussed"
… It is not necessarily redoing the KPI, but this is the part that first interested me
… This is where I would like to have this discussion - how can we move forward with this

Julie: I think what we have been circling around in this subgroup is
… If we were to create a big document, that is separate from Making Content Usable
… And Content Usable will include its own tests for each pattern or method
… How will this separate document compliment it without repeating it, or duplicating it?

<lisa> lisa seas that the group concenses was to keep the old kpis

Julie: Is the separate document something that offers guidance on specific things?
… That's a resource people might want to read on its own
… If we are coming back to a comprehensive document, some of which duplicates what is in WCAG 3
… As well as Making Content Usable describing how to do specific tests
… Who would be using it?

Lisa: I also think we want to bare in mind what we have in Section 5 of the document.

<lisa> https://www.w3.org/TR/coga-usable/#Building_in_the_user

Lisa: In the wiki we do have a note about testing the document
… and a wiki page on how to test - user processes

<lisa> https://www.w3.org/TR/coga-usable/#testing-each-pattern

Lisa: How to test each pattern, which is here, should link to the wiki page

<lisa> https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/task-forces/coga/wiki/Testable_Statements_for_Each_Pattern

Lisa: Testable statements for COGA design patterns
… This would be a good starting point.

Lisa: Each pattern has the issues we made to WCAG
… and we tried to make testing processes as well
… We can add a column with test cases
… This is a suggestion of where it could go
… This is what is already done

Jennie: How many on the call have people you work with who receive a link to Making Content Usable, and know how to bring it in to their product life cycles

Shawn: This is my challenge as well. Being conformant to WCAG is something many know. But how do you go beyond and bring in Making Content Usable?
… It would be helpful to have a way for people to bring it into their testing strategies.

Julie: I think part of what my struggle is
… I hear Shawn saying "what are the tests"
… I think writing out the process for figuring out "what is the test"
… I think trying to do a yes or no binary answer, then consider an assertion
… I think that is the big picture - we want to try to do the kind of binary testing that is easy to automate
… That kind of WCAG 2 type of testing
… For anything that doesn't fit into that, beyond that high level - can it be a binary test or does it need to be something else
… I'm not sure we need something that talks about the WCAG 3 pieces
… Couldn't we link out to that, and stay more focused on what is Making Content Usable
… This is what we are trying to build out
… There are pieces being adopted for WCAG 3
… There is going to be that overlap, that is my impression
… Maybe this document is the super quick - try to do a binary test, and if you can't, work on an assertion
… Then work on what Shawn wants to do which is work on the testing

Shawn: Yes. And also, I would rather spend time working on things I am very familiar with, as opposed to working on pieces I am less familiar doing
… If we can figure out testing the patterns, and bringing that back is a more useful use of my knowledge

Lisa: It sounds like one of the things you want to do is work with Kiki and Rain on the structure
… This should slide into what they are working on.
… Second: We are quite behind.
… If what you want to do is make a test for the patterns, and potential assertions
… And work out assertions on the objective level, knowing they may chance
… (change)
… I suggest a strong block of time where you sit down and do it
… This will make sure something gets done by the end of March
… That is a deliverable.
… I would strong state, respecting the minutes, and maybe they weren't taken well
… The group consensus was to have a table of contents
… Make your table of patterns and that can be 90% of your work
… And have an outline of the other ideas in the table of contents, which is respectful of the request of the main group
… Or we could make another subgroup
… The main thing is to get some work done

Shawn: I agree.

Eric: As far as large documents go - the organizations I have worked for, large documents are intimidating
… Also, from my perspective - people want to know where the single source of truth is
… Links within documents is how people doing look up will prefer

Shawn: I want to plus 1 to Julie - we don't want to repeat the work being done.
… Where WCAG 3 is going.
… Even though that is still not officially decided, I think we can work in that direction with what they already have
… Also, I believe at the meeting we are looking for the meeting notes, David talked about already doing this work
… And that a lot of the patterns were very similar
… And that if we did this type of testing, we could easily group some together, and he had the work already done
… I would like to see if he is willing to share some of that work

Lisa: David was definitely at the meeting

<Zakim> ShawnT, you wanted to speak about not doing repeating the work that's already being done

Lisa: He said he found that the way the patterns are split up - there is a big overlap
… It can be that you run with one test, and it could test for 3 patterns
… We should see if you can tweak that one test, and could you have multiple patterns tested
… This would be good for a first sweep.

Shawn: I agree, and it would be good to see if he has time to contribute.

Jennie: 1. Have something (a work product) completed by the end of March
… 2. Want to respect the request of the main COGA task force from the January 26 meeting
… 3. Working on tests that could cover multiple patterns would be a direction the group could go.

Lisa: Yes, the KPI date is end of March.
… If we need to change it, we should officially change it. We need to have a plan if we will do.

<lisa> https://www.w3.org/2023/01/30-coga-minutes

<lisa> this is where we discused as a group.

Shawn: I am still lost about what the documentation would be
… We did an outline, and that was great
… But personally, I don't have the knowledge to continue with that outline and the documentation
… I would like to shift my time to testing the patterns.

Lisa: And that is complete fine.
… That is a useful piece of work.
… And if that is something you want to do that is great.
… The KPI can still stand.
… This is the bit you are doing - putting it into a document.
… And if Jennie is also interested in only the pattern piece as well
… There is the Table of Contents, and it is very provisional
… The bit that you want to do before the end of March is the pattern section
… That is fine
… We can come back and say we need people to work on the Table of Contents

Jennie: I am best suited to working along with Shawn on the testing piece
… Is there someone on the call able and willing to do the outline and the Table of Contents?

<lisa> I cant take on more work right now. but we have a good table of content

Lisa: I suggest that I bring that to the call on Monday.
… and then you guys can focus on the patterns.

Shawn: I think that what I need to do is focus on the patterns first, and then that will help my understanding of the documentation
… and the Table of Contents
… It will help me digest Making Content Usable

Lisa: You are saying you would like to get to it but do the pattern piece first?

Shawn: Yes.
… I think that is similar to what I voted for in the straw poll
… It is similar to voting zero, but not at the same time.
… Identifying what is missing, what is needed, going from there.

Jennie: I am feeling similar to Shawn.
… But I am fine either way
… If someone is ready to do the outline and Table of Contents that is also fine with me

Julie: Would it be helpful - I think I could write out a short description of that high level thinking - how would you do the big picture approach
… before you have the specific testing
… Look at a pattern, think about whether a chunk of it could be broken off, then if you can't think of something that could be done

Jennie: Who would be the audience for that?

Julie: I agree with you, I do not know who the audience would be
… All of the thinking about how we develop the tests - I don't know who the audience is for that

Lisa: I think that confuses 2 things
… The broader table to contents is assertions to a process
… Like ISO has
… The process means you are compliant
… Having people on your design team with different disabilities
… That was the broader scope

<ShawnT> Table of Content drafts - test subgroup - Google Docs: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Otsl4HTCvpQj63xYVKzOVkulf6o75dWEthu6WI9Vtj8/edit?pli=1#heading=h.7ejnh0q5wdpx

Lisa: Thanks Shawn - that is the table of contents.
… I think the resolution is to first focus on the patterns
… The first step is David's idea of seeing where there is overlap
… And once you have that, you would feel more comfortable filling in the Table of Contents
… Then this piece is starting to look real
… I think that is what you are comfortable doing
… Until the end of March we focus on the testability of patterns
… In the next 6 months we would work on putting it into a Table of Contents and send to the broader group to review

Lisa: I think that you have to block off time, and have people working together then finishing some sections after that work time
… Then you would have enough of it done that you would know what it looks like.
… Then you can put it in a box
… As an exploratory draft - "Is this what people want?"
… Then you can flush out the table to contents
… The structure group would know what you are talking about
… and everyone would feel more comfortable

Shawn: Yes, I think so
… I would need to check my calendar
… I think that is doable

Lisa: I am trying to see that you and Jennie are doing something you want to be doing, have a schedule
… know where it is going
… and are in agreement.
… I think what you said is that you want to start with these patterns, and then when you have enough of it done, then you are comfortable working on the rest of the table of contents
… Did I understand that?

Shawn: You understood.

Minutes manually created (not a transcript), formatted by scribe.perl version 210 (Wed Jan 11 19:21:32 2023 UTC).


Maybe present: Eric, Julie, Lisa, Shawn

All speakers: Eric, Jennie, Julie, Lisa, Shawn

Active on IRC: Eric_Hind, Jennie, julierawe, lisa, ShawnT