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15:55:58 <trackbot> Meeting: Cognitive and Learning Disabilities Accessibility Task Force Teleconference
15:55:58 <trackbot> Date: 23 February 2023
16:01:11 <Jennie> Jennie has joined #coga
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16:01:53 <lisa> zakim, start meeting
16:01:53 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
16:01:55 <Zakim> Meeting: Cognitive and Learning Disabilities Accessibility Task Force Teleconference
16:07:12 <julierawe> julierawe has joined #coga
16:07:15 <julierawe> present+
16:11:41 <Jennie> present+
16:11:46 <Jennie> scribe: Jennie
16:12:35 <ShawnT> ShawnT has joined #coga
16:13:16 <Jennie> (group spent a few minutes discussing the possibility of using captions for minutes)
16:14:06 <Jennie> COGA subgroup page: https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/task-forces/coga/wiki/Subgroups
16:14:54 <Jennie> Lisa: I am asking subgroup leaders to send out reminders about their meetings a few days ahead.
16:15:57 <Jennie> ...I will be doing an orientation call after Monday's meeting
16:16:04 <Jennie> Eric: I work with Kiki!
16:17:25 <Jennie> Shawn: We decided to talk about a possibly new KPI for this group.
16:17:45 <Jennie> ...When I started with the subgroup, I thought it would be hands on testing of the patterns
16:17:51 <lisa> Q+
16:17:57 <Jennie> ...and not specifically how to test for Cognitive and Learning Disabilities
16:18:11 <ShawnT> present+
16:18:12 <ShawnT> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1adgZ4cFT3xu8x_MDoBQ5SESQngasj8En/edit#
16:18:29 <Jennie> Shawn: This is the working document we have, being shared on Google drive
16:18:47 <Jennie> q?
16:19:18 <Jennie> Lisa: There was a good conversation during the main group a couple of weeks ago.
16:19:27 <Jennie> ...You brought the concept of changing the KPI.
16:19:44 <Jennie> ...The consensus of the big group is we want also to look at the big picture issues such as how to build conformance
16:19:59 <Jennie> ...Such as having enough diversity in your testing group, or focus groups, and in your specifications and user needs.
16:20:13 <Jennie> ...The strong consensus of the main group is not to get rid of the KPI.
16:20:24 <Jennie> ...The direction they were comfortable with was having 2 subgroups.
16:20:35 <Jennie> ...If you and Jennie want to focus on a task, that is fine
16:20:47 <Jennie> ...And anyone else in the group that wants to start thinking about the process, can work on that
16:20:56 <Jennie> ...And we can recruit if needed, for others to support this.
16:21:14 <Jennie> ...The group is comfortable with you working on the specific testing.
16:21:27 <Jennie> ...There was not consensus for dropping the broader ideas for how to test this document.
16:21:39 <Jennie> Shawn: That was not my impression.
16:21:45 <Jennie> Lisa: That is why we have minutes.
16:22:12 <lisa> https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/task-forces/coga/minutes
16:23:19 <ShawnT> https://www.w3.org/2023/02/06-coga-minutes
16:24:59 <Jennie> I think it is this one
16:25:00 <Jennie> https://www.w3.org/2023/01/26-coga-minutes
16:25:44 <Jennie> Shawn: (reviewed the current KPI)
16:26:13 <Jennie> ...Jennie and I focused on the "at least 10 patterns have edge casses drafted and discussed"
16:26:35 <Jennie> ...It is not necessarily redoing the KPI, but this is the part that first interested me
16:27:01 <Jennie> ...This is where I would like to have this discussion - how can we move forward with this
16:27:28 <Jennie> Julie: I think what we have been circling around in this subgroup is
16:27:39 <Jennie> ...If we were to create a big document, that is separate from Making Content Usable
16:27:50 <Jennie> ...And Content Usable will include its own tests for each pattern or method
16:28:06 <Jennie> ...How will this separate document compliment it without repeating it, or duplicating it?
16:28:22 <lisa> lisa seas that the group concenses was to keep the old kpis
16:28:25 <Jennie> ...Is the separate document something that offers guidance on specific things?
16:28:36 <Jennie> ...That's a resource people might want to read on its own
16:28:53 <Jennie> ...If we are coming back to a comprehensive document, some of which duplicates what is in WCAG 3
16:29:06 <Jennie> ...As well as Making Content Usable describing how to do specific tests
16:29:10 <Jennie> ...Who would be using it?
16:29:23 <lisa> q+
16:29:43 <Jennie> Lisa: I also think we want to bare in mind what we have in Section 5 of the document.
16:29:48 <lisa> https://www.w3.org/TR/coga-usable/#Building_in_the_user
16:30:05 <Jennie> ...In the wiki we do have a note about testing the document
16:30:12 <Jennie> ...and a wiki page on how to test - user processes
16:30:20 <lisa> https://www.w3.org/TR/coga-usable/#testing-each-pattern
16:30:24 <Jennie> ...How to test each pattern, which is here, should link to the wiki page
16:30:30 <lisa> https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/task-forces/coga/wiki/Testable_Statements_for_Each_Pattern
16:30:35 <Jennie> ...Testable statements for COGA design patterns
16:30:40 <Jennie> ...This would be a good starting point.
16:30:46 <Jennie> q+
16:30:58 <Jennie> Lisa: Each pattern has the issues we made to WCAG
16:31:05 <Jennie> ...and we tried to make testing processes as well
16:31:12 <Jennie> ...We can add a column with test cases
16:31:19 <Jennie> ...This is a suggestion of where it could go
16:31:35 <Jennie> ...This is what is already done
16:31:37 <Jennie> ack Lisa
16:34:09 <Jennie> Jennie: How many on the call have people you work with who receive a link to Making Content Usable, and know how to bring it in to their product life cycles
16:34:41 <Jennie> Shawn: This is my challenge as well. Being conformant to WCAG is something many know. But how do you go beyond and bring in Making Content Usable?
16:34:54 <Jennie> ...It would be helpful to have a way for people to bring it into their testing strategies.
16:34:59 <julierawe> q+
16:35:14 <Jennie> ack Jennie
16:35:22 <ShawnT> ack julierawe
16:35:26 <Jennie> Julie: I think part of what my struggle is
16:35:35 <Jennie> ...I hear Shawn saying "what are the tests"
16:35:46 <Jennie> ...I think writing out the process for figuring out "what is the test"
16:36:01 <Jennie> ...I think trying to do a yes or no binary answer, then consider an assertion
16:36:16 <Jennie> ...I think that is the big picture - we want to try to do the kind of binary testing that is easy to automate
16:36:22 <Jennie> ...That kind of WCAG 2 type of testing
16:36:42 <Jennie> ...For anything that doesn't fit into that, beyond that high level - can it be a binary test or does it need to be something else
16:36:53 <lisa> Q+
16:36:56 <Jennie> ...I'm not sure we need something that talks about the WCAG 3 pieces
16:37:14 <Jennie> ...Couldn't we link out to that, and stay more focused on what is Making Content Usable
16:37:25 <Jennie> ....This is what we are trying to build out
16:37:31 <Eric_Hind> q+
16:37:33 <Jennie> ...There are pieces being adopted for WCAG 3
16:37:43 <Jennie> ...There is going to be that overlap, that is my impression
16:37:59 <Jennie> ...Maybe this document is the super quick - try to do a binary test, and if you can't, work on an assertion
16:38:12 <Jennie> ...Then work on what Shawn wants to do which is work on the testing
16:38:39 <Jennie> Shawn: Yes. And also, I would rather spend time working on things I am very familiar with, as opposed to working on pieces I am less familiar doing
16:39:42 <Jennie> ...If we can figure out testing the patterns, and bringing that back is a more useful use of my knowledge
16:40:09 <Jennie> Lisa: It sounds like one of the things you want to do is work with Kiki and Rain on the structure
16:40:28 <Jennie> ...This should slide into what they are working on.
16:40:32 <ShawnT> ack lisa
16:40:40 <Jennie> ...Second: We are quite behind.
16:40:54 <Jennie> ...If what you want to do is make a test for the patterns, and potential assertions
16:41:05 <Jennie> ...And work out assertions on the objective level, knowing they may chance
16:41:09 <Jennie> ...(change)
16:41:19 <Jennie> ...I suggest a strong block of time where you sit down and do it
16:41:29 <Jennie> ...This will make sure something gets done by the end of March
16:41:35 <ShawnT> q+ to speak about not doing repeating the work that's already being done
16:41:35 <Jennie> ...That is a deliverable.
16:41:50 <Jennie> ...I would strong state, respecting the minutes, and maybe they weren't taken well
16:42:03 <Jennie> ...The group consensus was to have a table of contents
16:42:15 <Jennie> ...Make your table of patterns and that can be 90% of your work
16:42:33 <Jennie> ...And have an outline of the other ideas in the table of contents, which is respectful of the request of the main group
16:42:42 <Jennie> ...Or we could make another subgroup
16:42:57 <Jennie> ...The main thing is to get some work done
16:43:16 <Jennie> q?
16:43:30 <Jennie> Shawn: I agree.
16:43:35 <ShawnT> ack Eric_Hind
16:43:54 <Jennie> Eric: As far as large documents go - the organizations I have worked for, large documents are intimidating
16:44:09 <Jennie> ...Also, from my perspective - people want to know where the single source of truth is
16:44:19 <Jennie> ...Links within documents is how people doing look up will prefer
16:44:41 <Jennie> Shawn: I want to plus 1 to Julie - we don't want to repeat the work being done.
16:44:47 <Jennie> ...Where WCAG 3 is going.
16:45:04 <Jennie> ...Even though that is still not officially decided, I think we can work in that direction with what they already have
16:45:17 <lisa> RRSAgent, publish minutes
16:45:19 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/02/23-coga-minutes.html lisa
16:45:27 <Jennie> ...Also, I believe at the  meeting we are looking for the meeting notes, David talked about already doing this work
16:45:28 <Jennie> ...And that a lot of the patterns were very similar
16:45:46 <lisa> q+
16:45:47 <Jennie> ...And that if we did this type of testing, we could easily group some together, and he had the work already done
16:45:58 <Jennie> ...I would like to see if he is willing to share some of that work
16:46:07 <Jennie> Lisa: David was definitely at the meeting
16:46:08 <ShawnT> ack ShawnT
16:46:08 <Zakim> ShawnT, you wanted to speak about not doing repeating the work that's already being done
16:46:19 <Jennie> ...He said he found that the way the patterns are split up - there is a big overlap
16:46:34 <Jennie> ...It can be that you run with one test, and it could test for 3 patterns
16:46:48 <Jennie> ...We should see if you can tweak that one test, and could you have multiple patterns tested
16:46:58 <Jennie> ...This would be good for a first sweep.
16:47:11 <Jennie> Shawn: I agree, and it would be good to see if he has time to contribute.
16:47:27 <Jennie> q+
16:47:43 <ShawnT> ack lisa
16:47:49 <ShawnT> ack Jennie
16:48:05 <Jennie> Jennie: 1. Have something (a work product) completed by the end of March
16:48:29 <Jennie> ...2. Want to respect the request of the main COGA task force from the January 26 meeting
16:48:49 <Jennie> ...3. Working on tests that could cover multiple patterns would be a direction the group could go.
16:49:49 <Jennie> Lisa: Yes, the KPI date is end of March.
16:50:07 <Jennie> ...If we need to change it, we should officially change it. We need to have a plan if we will do.
16:54:04 <lisa> https://www.w3.org/2023/01/30-coga-minutes
16:56:55 <lisa> this is where we discused as a group.
16:57:25 <lisa> q+
16:57:28 <Jennie> Shawn: I am still lost about what the documentation would be
16:57:34 <Jennie> ...We did an outline, and that was great
16:57:48 <Jennie> ...But personally, I don't have the knowledge to continue with that outline and the documentation
16:57:57 <Jennie> ...I would like to shift my time to testing the patterns.
16:58:01 <Jennie> q?
16:58:06 <Jennie> Lisa: And that is complete fine.
16:58:11 <Jennie> ...That is a useful piece of work.
16:58:19 <Jennie> ...And if that is something you want to do that is great.
16:58:25 <Jennie> ...The KPI can still stand.
16:58:36 <Jennie> ...This is the bit you are doing - putting it into a document.
16:58:47 <Jennie> ...And if Jennie is also interested in only the pattern piece as well
16:58:52 <ShawnT> ack lisa
16:58:56 <Jennie> ...There is the Table of Contents, and it is very provisional
16:59:08 <Jennie> ...The bit that you want to do before the end of March is the pattern section
16:59:11 <Jennie> ...That is fine
16:59:24 <Jennie> ...We can come back and say we need people to work on the Table of Contents
16:59:25 <Jennie> q+
16:59:58 <lisa> ack next
17:00:12 <Jennie> Jennie: I am best suited to working along with Shawn on the testing piece
17:00:44 <Jennie> ...Is there someone on the call able and willing to do the outline and the Table of Contents?
17:00:46 <lisa> I cant take on more work right now. but we have a good table of content
17:01:02 <Jennie> Lisa: I suggest that I bring that to the call on Monday.
17:01:09 <Jennie> ...and then you guys can focus on the patterns.
17:01:35 <Jennie> Shawn: I think that what I need to do is focus on the patterns first, and then that will help my understanding of the documentation
17:01:41 <Jennie> ...and the Table of Contents
17:01:49 <Jennie> ...It will help me digest Making Content Usable
17:02:24 <Jennie> q?
17:02:39 <Jennie> Lisa: You are saying you would like to get to it but do the pattern piece first?
17:02:47 <Jennie> Shawn: Yes.
17:02:59 <Jennie> ...I think that is similar to what I voted for in the straw poll
17:03:13 <Jennie> ...It is similar to voting zero, but not at the same time.
17:03:28 <Jennie> ...Identifying what is missing, what is needed, going from there.
17:03:49 <Jennie> Jennie: I am feeling similar to Shawn.
17:03:55 <Jennie> ...But I am fine either way
17:04:16 <julierawe> q+
17:04:21 <Jennie> ...If someone is ready to do the outline and Table of Contents that is also fine with me
17:04:28 <ShawnT> ack julierawe
17:05:00 <Jennie> Julie: Would it be helpful - I think I could write out a short description of that high level thinking - how would you do the big picture approach
17:05:06 <Jennie> ...before you have the specific testing
17:05:28 <Jennie> ...Look at a pattern, think about whether a chunk of it could be broken off, then if you can't think of something that could be done
17:05:28 <Jennie> q+
17:06:08 <ShawnT> ack Jennie
17:06:29 <lisa> q+
17:06:58 <Jennie> Jennie: Who would be the audience for that?
17:07:09 <Jennie> Julie: I agree with you, I do not know who the audience would be
17:07:26 <Jennie> ...All of the thinking about how we develop the tests - I don't know who the audience is for that
17:07:29 <ShawnT> ack lisa
17:07:33 <Jennie> Lisa: I think that confuses 2 things
17:07:42 <Jennie> ...The broader table to contents is assertions to a process
17:07:45 <Jennie> ...Like ISO has
17:07:51 <Jennie> ...The process means you are compliant
17:08:00 <Jennie> ...Having people on your design team with different disabilities
17:08:07 <Jennie> ...That was the broader scope
17:08:11 <ShawnT> Table of Content drafts - test subgroup - Google Docs: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Otsl4HTCvpQj63xYVKzOVkulf6o75dWEthu6WI9Vtj8/edit?pli=1#heading=h.7ejnh0q5wdpx
17:08:27 <Jennie> ...Thanks Shawn  - that is the table of contents.
17:08:37 <Jennie> ...I think the resolution is to first focus on the patterns
17:08:46 <Jennie> ...The first step is David's idea of seeing where there is overlap
17:09:01 <Jennie> ...And once you have that, you would feel more comfortable filling in the Table of Contents
17:09:07 <Jennie> ...Then this piece is starting to look real
17:09:16 <Jennie> ...I think that is what you are comfortable doing
17:09:29 <Jennie> ...Until the end of March we focus on the testability of patterns
17:09:48 <Jennie> ...In the next 6 months we would work on putting it into a Table of Contents and send to the broader group to review
17:10:49 <Jennie> Lisa: I think that you have to block off time, and have people working together then finishing some sections after that work time
17:11:01 <Jennie> ...Then you would have enough of it done that you would know what it looks like.
17:11:05 <Jennie> ...Then you can put it in a box
17:11:17 <Jennie> ...As an exploratory draft - "Is this what people want?"
17:11:23 <Jennie> ...Then you can flush out the table to contents
17:11:31 <Jennie> ...The structure group would know what you are talking about
17:11:37 <Jennie> ...and everyone would feel more comfortable
17:11:41 <lisa> RRSAgent, publish minutes
17:11:42 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/02/23-coga-minutes.html lisa
17:11:49 <Jennie> Shawn: Yes, I think so
17:11:52 <Jennie> ...I would need to check my calendar
17:11:59 <Jennie> ...I think that is doable
17:12:15 <Jennie> Lisa: I am trying to see that you and Jennie are doing something you want to be doing, have a schedule
17:12:19 <Jennie> ...know where it is going
17:12:26 <Jennie> ...and are in agreement.
17:13:12 <Jennie> ...I think what you said is that you want to start with these patterns, and then when you have enough of it done, then you are comfortable working on the rest of the table of contents
17:13:15 <Jennie> ...Did I understand that?
17:13:20 <Jennie> Shawn: You understood.
17:13:41 <lisa> RRSAgent, publish minutes
17:13:43 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/02/23-coga-minutes.html lisa
17:13:49 <Jennie> Lisa: I want you doing stuff you are comfortable doing.
17:13:51 <Jennie> Shawn: Thank you. I think we will go from there.
17:13:57 <lisa> thanks everyone
17:14:16 <lisa> i need to go
17:15:40 <Jennie> Eric present+
17:18:06 <Jennie> present+ Eric
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