I18N ⇔ CSS

21 February 2023


atsushi, fantasai, florian, r12a, xfq

Meeting minutes

florian: text-spacing controls the spacing between alphanumeric and CJK characters etc.
… without really changing the behavior we significanlty changed the value
… the tweak Murakami-san requested was satisfied
… Apple, which I think is the most interested implementer, was happy with the resolution
… fantasai, can you remember other things of interest that happened recently?

<fantasai> w3c/i18n-request#205

fantasai: we resolved to publish css-text-3
… there are only 2 issues

r12a: we saw that
… we're going to look at that
… presumably you've listed the changes

r12a: what's the status for ruby?

florian: nothing happened for a long time
… we're making sure the w3c have a board, for example
… I expect to have rapid progress to start working on css ruby and html ruby
… shouldn't be too hard

r12a: do we have any way of pushing for the implementations of the sideways value?
… there's no alternative for the moment

fantasai: Nicole Sullivan is a Google employee and is the product manager for Chrome, she can put things on priority for Chrome

<fantasai> nsull

fantasai: you can talk to her

florian: if they're willing to accept patches, we can look for money to make that happen

<fantasai> Ian Kilpatric is one of the lead layout engineers

florian: maybe dbaron

<fantasai> ikilpatrick@

fantasai: koji would probably be responsible for implementing it

Emilio Cobos Álvarez (Mozilla)

<florian> emilio@

<fantasai> Jonathan Kew jkew@

<fantasai> Jen Simmons, Apple, jensimmons@

Myles C. Maxfield litherum (litherum) Apple

<fantasai> mmaxfield@

fantasai: Alan, who's implementing a bunch of inline layout stuff

r12a: we also came across folks under the banner of Open UI


r12a: recently, vertical form

florian: they're focused on forms
… they're focused on the lack of interop
… surely i18n should interact with them

<fantasai> Murata-san was talking to me about that recently also, saying it's a big problem in Japan

<atsushi> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-i18n-japanese/2023JanMar/0022.html (email from Murata-san yesterday)

<r12a> https://r12a.github.io/scripts/jpan/ja.html#interaction

r12a: see ^
… I have a similar diagram for Chinese and Mongolian
… change ja to zh and mn
… this helps people to envisige

<r12a> https://r12a.github.io/scripts/mong/mn.html#interaction

fantasai: there's an example for the spec

<fantasai> https://www.w3.org/TR/css-writing-modes-3/#example-fb72ee40

r12a: in Mongolian everything goes into the opposite direction when it expands
… on my pages you got buttons, progress bars, etc.
… there's a few details like the little arrow at the bottom of the select thing in the right direction

atsushi: following murata-san's link some japanese people talk about IME interaction
… no one is sure to which side such kind of box the underline should be placed in vertical writing mode
… does similar things exist in Chinese?

xfq_: haven't seen it before

[atsushi shares his screen]

<fantasai> [shows typing into text entry, before the IME composes kanji there is a dotted underline]

<fantasai> [once the text has been converted, the line becomes solid]

<fantasai> [once the text has been accepted, the line disappears]

r12a: I was gonna see if this is an underline you probably want to standardise it, but if this is text input, the person writing it is clear what's going on

florian: the project manager should define that for the platform, but I agree with r12a that does not mean it should be standardised

r12a: if it appears on the other side it still works

florian: we don't have to constrain it, leaving it up to the platform

r12a: agenda?

Flow-relative syntax for 'margin'-like shorthands

fantasai: we don't have an update for Flow-relative syntax for 'margin'-like shorthands and Custom property namespacing

<fantasai> text-spacing update (CSSWG minutes)

florian: that's the thing we didn't have time to get to in our F2F

r12a: there are a lot of things that have a lot of discussions but nothing happens

fantasai: it's gonna take pressure and time before we figure out what really should happen

r12a: we had some proposals about what are the different ways of doing it

florian: at syntax level I don't think we're locked but we need to go through all the properties

r12a: is that large labeling exercise necessary for the flow-relativesyntax issue?

florian: for the general switch between logical/physical the large labeling helps

r12a: was trying to find a quicker way to get the resolution for that particular issue

florian: I think we need to be actively optimistic

r12a: unless we have a plan it won't happen
… that's quite important

Custom property namespacing

florian: I'm confused as to why it's still on the agenda
… you need to check if that resolution is enough for you
… if it's not good, tell us why


r12a: any other comments?

fantasai: we expanded on the handling of text spacing to more punctuations, non-CJK punctuations

xfq_: I'll put it on the clreq meeting today

<fantasai> Murakami-san suggested to treat Pi as Ps and Pf as Pe and apply the rules to more than just CJK punctuation

<fantasai> so we updated the text to do that

florian: this text spacing rule around French depends on Unicode, they used to have a page around French punctuation
… but disappeared

<fantasai> Unicode page that disappeared http://unicode.org/udhr/n/notes_fra.html

florian: this is not in the official Unicode standard, but at the Unicode website

<fantasai> more reliable page that we now link to

<fantasai> http://damien.jullemier.pagesperso-orange.fr/typ/typ-espace-ponctuation.htm

r12a: in some scripts the space is built into the font, in some cases it's just a space, it shouldn't be a break opportunity
… there's a repitition symbol in Thai
… smaller space than a ordinary space
… doesn't have the semantics in Unicode

florian: this is interesting, however, do we really want CSS to catch every single languages of the world?
… what's your suggestion?

r12a: I don't have a suggestion, but if you put rules in French, we shouldn't do just one language

fantasai: I think if there's a TR in W3C i18n or Unicode that would be great
… you mentioned the danda, the space is in the glyph or typed out
… it can't be font-dependant

r12a: using the approach we have you can remove spaces and put spacing it but if it's in the glyph we don't know that

florian: I don't think if there's is reliable way to know if it's in the font

fantasai: line break

r12a: it's in a separate category of line breaking

fantasai: I think we should do tests in WPT

r12a: I was just thinking though there may be a gap in the glyph, I don't think that happens a lot, if you use that font, you can choose not to turn autospace on
… you can use autospace if the font has spacing in it

fantasai: what if a fallback font is chosen?

r12a: Mongolian is the same thing, sometimes it puts a space in the glyph

[florian left]

r12a: anything else we need to discuss?

fantasai: the various language requirement documents, many of them need to be republished

r12a: I'm working on this
… what I'm currently doing is I'm taking my own information and donating that to the draft

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Maybe present: xfq_

All speakers: atsushi, fantasai, florian, r12a, xfq_

Active on IRC: atsushi, fantasai, florian, r12a, xfq_