IRC log of i18n on 2023-02-21

Timestamps are in UTC.

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logging to https://www.w3.org/2023/02/21-i18n-irc
07:03:39 [xfq_]
rrsagent, make log public
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present+ florian, fantasai, atsushi, r12a, xfq
07:05:24 [xfq_]
agenda: https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/3c07703f-3a43-43b7-9dce-7c1ae8f71171/20230221T070000
07:05:24 [agendabot]
clear agenda
07:05:24 [agendabot]
agenda+ Agenda Review
07:05:24 [agendabot]
agenda+ Action Item Review
07:05:24 [agendabot]
agenda+ Info Share and Upcoming CSS/I18N Schedule
07:05:24 [agendabot]
agenda+ Auto-spacing
07:05:26 [agendabot]
agenda+ Flow-relative syntax for 'margin'-like shorthands
07:05:29 [agendabot]
agenda+ Custom property namespacing
07:05:38 [xfq_]
agenda?
07:06:07 [xfq_]
scribe: xfq_
07:06:40 [xfq_]
florian: text-spacing controls the spacing between alphanumeric and CJK characters etc.
07:07:02 [xfq_]
... without really changing the behavior we significanlty changed the value
07:07:25 [xfq_]
... the tweak Murakami-san requested was satisfied
07:07:48 [xfq_]
... Apple, which I think is the most interested implementer, was happy with the resolution
07:08:06 [xfq_]
... fantasai, can you remember other things of interest that happend recently?
07:08:13 [fantasai]
https://github.com/w3c/i18n-request/issues/205
07:08:17 [xfq_]
fantasai: we resolved to publish css-text-3
07:08:26 [xfq_]
... there are only 2 issues
07:08:30 [xfq_]
r12a: we saw that
07:08:36 [xfq_]
... we're going to look at that
07:08:44 [xfq_]
... presumably you've listed the chages
07:08:54 [xfq_]
s/chages/changes
07:08:58 [xfq_]
s/happend/happened
07:09:05 [xfq_]
r12a: what's the status for ruby?
07:09:14 [xfq_]
florian: nothing happened for a long time
07:09:32 [xfq_]
... we're making sure the w3c have a board, for example
07:10:10 [xfq_]
... I expect to have rapid progress to start working on css ruby and html ruby
07:10:17 [xfq_]
... shouldn't be too hard
07:10:53 [xfq_]
r12a: do we have any way of pushing for the implementations of the sideways value?
07:11:11 [xfq_]
... there's no alternative for the moment
07:12:55 [xfq_]
fantasai: @@ is a Google employee and is the product manager for Chrome, she can put things on priority for Chrome
07:13:30 [fantasai]
nsull
07:13:36 [fantasai]
s/@@/Nicole Sullivan/
07:14:04 [xfq_]
... you can talk to her
07:14:36 [xfq_]
florian: if they're willing to accept patches, we can look for money to make that happen
07:15:56 [fantasai]
Ian Kilpatric is one of the lead layout engineers
07:16:18 [xfq_]
florian: maybe dbaron
07:16:23 [fantasai]
ikilpatrick@
07:17:30 [xfq_]
fantasai: koji would probably responsible for implementing it
07:17:38 [xfq_]
s/responsible for/be responsible for
07:18:24 [xfq_]
Emilio Cobos Álvarez
07:18:29 [florian]
emilio@mozilla.com
07:18:43 [xfq_]
s/Emilio Cobos Álvarez/Emilio Cobos Álvarez (Mozilla)
07:19:14 [fantasai]
Jonathan Kew jkew@
07:20:09 [fantasai]
Jen Simmons, Apple, jensimmons@
07:20:12 [xfq_]
Myles C. Maxfield litherum (litherum) Apple
07:20:35 [fantasai]
mmaxfield@
07:20:54 [florian]
s/@mozilla.com/@/
07:22:16 [xfq_]
fantasai: Alan, who's implementing a bunch of inline layout stuff
07:22:54 [xfq_]
r12a: we also came across folks under the banner of Open UI
07:23:13 [xfq_]
https://github.com/openui/open-ui/labels/i18n-tracker
07:23:26 [xfq_]
r12a: recently, vertical form
07:23:37 [xfq_]
florian: they're focused on forms
07:23:44 [xfq_]
... they're focused on the lack of interop
07:23:54 [xfq_]
... surely i18n should interact with them
07:23:56 [fantasai]
Murata-san was talking to me about that recently also, saying it's a big problem in Japan
07:24:31 [atsushi]
https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-i18n-japanese/2023JanMar/0022.html (email from Murata-san yesterday)
07:25:00 [r12a]
https://r12a.github.io/scripts/jpan/ja.html#interaction
07:25:11 [xfq_]
r12a: see ^
07:25:21 [xfq_]
... I have a similar diagram for Chinese and Mongolian
07:25:28 [xfq_]
... change ja to zh and mn
07:25:52 [xfq_]
... this helps people to envisige
07:26:05 [r12a]
https://r12a.github.io/scripts/mong/mn.html#interaction
07:26:08 [xfq_]
fantasai: there's an example for the spec
07:26:14 [fantasai]
https://www.w3.org/TR/css-writing-modes-3/#example-fb72ee40
07:26:30 [xfq_]
r12a: in Mongolian everything goes into the opposite direction when it expands
07:27:00 [xfq_]
... on my pages you got buttons, progress bars, etc.
07:27:30 [xfq_]
... there's a few details like the little arrow at the bottom of the select thing in the right direction
07:27:46 [xfq_]
Meeting: I18N ⇔ CSS
07:27:52 [xfq_]
rrsagent, make minutes
07:27:53 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/02/21-i18n-minutes.html xfq_
07:28:09 [xfq_]
atsushi: following murata-san's link some japanese people talk about IME interaction
07:28:43 [xfq_]
... no one is sure to which side such kind of box should be placed in vertical writing mode
07:29:12 [fantasai]
s/should/the underline should/
07:29:36 [xfq_]
... does similar things exist in Chinese?
07:29:46 [xfq_]
xfq_: haven't seen it before
07:29:54 [xfq_]
[atsushi shares his screen]
07:30:50 [fantasai]
[shows typing into text entry, before the IME composes kanji there is a dotted underline]
07:31:00 [fantasai]
[once the text has been converted, the line becomes solid]
07:31:07 [fantasai]
[once the text has been accepted, the line disappears]
07:31:16 [xfq_]
r12a: I was gonna see if this is an underline you probably want to standardise it, but if this is text input, the person writing it is clear what's going on
07:32:04 [xfq_]
florian: the project manager should define that, but I agree with r12a that does not mean it should be standardised
07:32:21 [xfq_]
r12a: if it appears on the other side it still works
07:32:33 [fantasai]
s/define that/define that for the platform/
07:32:54 [xfq_]
florian: we don't have to constrain it, leaving it up to the platform
07:32:54 [xfq_]
agenda?
07:33:48 [xfq_]
r12a: agenda?
07:33:50 [r12a]
Topic: Flow-relative syntax for 'margin'-like shorthands
07:33:52 [xfq_]
fantasai: we don't have an update for Flow-relative syntax for 'margin'-like shorthands and Custom property namespacing
07:34:08 [fantasai]
text-spacing update (CSSWG minutes) -> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2023Feb/0002.html
07:34:11 [xfq_]
florian: that's the thing we didn't have time to get to in our F2F
07:34:37 [xfq_]
r12a: there are a lot of things that have a lot of discussions but nothing happens
07:35:04 [xfq_]
fantasai: it's gonna take pressure and time before we figure out what really should happen
07:35:45 [xfq_]
r12a: we had some proposals about what are the different ways of doing it
07:36:19 [xfq_]
florian: at syntax level I don't think we're locked but we need to go through all the properties
07:37:00 [xfq_]
r12a: is that large labeling exercise necessary for flow-relative syntax issue?
07:37:17 [xfq_]
s/for flow-relative /for the flow-relative
07:38:06 [xfq_]
florian: for the general switch between logical/physical the large labeling helps
07:38:32 [xfq_]
r12a: was trying to find a quicker way to get the resolution for that particular issue
07:38:55 [xfq_]
florian: I think we need to be actively optimistic
07:39:13 [xfq_]
r12a: unless we have a plan it won't happen
07:39:33 [xfq_]
... that's quite important
07:39:45 [r12a]
Topic: Custom property namespacing
07:40:11 [xfq_]
florian: I'm confused as to why it's still on the agenda
07:40:35 [xfq_]
... you need to check if that resolution is enough for you
07:41:02 [xfq_]
... if it's not good, tell us why
07:41:18 [xfq_]
Topic: AOB
07:41:23 [xfq_]
r12a: any other comments?
07:42:08 [xfq_]
fantasai: we expanded on the handling of text spacing to more punctuations, non-CJK punctuations
07:42:52 [xfq_]
xfq_: I'll put it on the clreq meeting today
07:43:20 [fantasai]
Murakami-san suggested to treat Pi as Ps and Pf as Pe and apply the rules to more than just CJK punctuation
07:43:27 [fantasai]
so we updated the text to do that
07:43:37 [xfq_]
florian: this text spacing rule around French depends on Unicode, they used to have a page around French punctuation
07:43:42 [xfq_]
... but disappeared
07:43:55 [fantasai]
Unicode page that disappeared http://unicode.org/udhr/n/notes_fra.html
07:44:13 [xfq_]
... this is not in the official Unicode standard, but at the Unicode website
07:44:23 [fantasai]
more reliable page that we now link to french
07:44:34 [fantasai]
http://damien.jullemier.pagesperso-orange.fr/typ/typ-espace-ponctuation.htm
07:44:39 [fantasai]
s/french//
07:45:05 [xfq_]
r12a: in some scripts the space is built into the font, in some cases it's just a space, it shouldn't be a break opportunity
07:45:15 [xfq_]
... there's a repitition symbol in Thai
07:45:23 [xfq_]
... smaller space than a ordinary space
07:45:30 [xfq_]
... doesn't have the semantics in Unicode
07:46:05 [xfq_]
florian: this is interesting, however, do we really want CSS to catch every single languages of the world?
07:46:15 [xfq_]
... what's your suggestion?
07:46:34 [xfq_]
r12a: I don't have a suggestion, but if you put rules in French, we shouldn't do just one language
07:46:58 [xfq_]
fantasai: I think if there's a TR in W3C i18n or Unicode that would be great
07:47:17 [xfq_]
... you mentioned the danda, the space is in the glyph or typed out
07:47:27 [xfq_]
... it can't be font-dependant
07:48:23 [xfq_]
r12a: using the approach we have you can remove spaces and put spacing it but if it's in the glyph we don't know that
07:49:01 [xfq_]
florian: I don't think if there's is reliable way to know if it's in the font
07:49:22 [xfq_]
fantasai: line break
07:49:50 [xfq_]
r12a: it's in a separate category of line breaking
07:50:18 [xfq_]
fantasai: I think we should do tests in WPT
07:50:55 [xfq_]
r12a: I was just thinking though there may be a gap in the glyph, I don't think that happens a lot, if you use that font, you can choose not to turn autospace on
07:51:12 [xfq_]
... you can use autospace if the font has spacing in it
07:51:24 [xfq_]
fantasai: what if a fallback font is chosen?
07:51:58 [xfq_]
r12a: Mongolian is the same thing, sometimes it puts a space in the glyph
07:52:10 [xfq_]
[florian left]
07:52:34 [xfq_]
r12a: anything else we need to discuss?
07:53:03 [xfq_]
fantasai: the various language requirement documents, many of them need to be republished
07:53:09 [xfq_]
r12a: I'm working on this
07:53:38 [xfq_]
... what I'm currently doing is I'm taking my own information and donating that to the draft
07:55:41 [xfq_]
rrsagent, make minutes
07:55:42 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2023/02/21-i18n-minutes.html xfq_
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