Accessible Platform Architectures (APA Teleconference

05 October 2022


Alisa_Smith, becky, Fazio, Fredrik, janina, matatk, mike_beganyi, nadine, niklasegger, PaulG, Roy

Meeting minutes

Agenda Review & Announcements

janina: A little bit of time should be taken for announcements this time as is TPAC follow-up.

janina: From a a calendar perspective, we are moving along as we have been throught he rest of October, at whose end we have our biannual dance. Europe goes back to Standard Time one week ahead of the US. Right aroudn November rolling in we'll be out of temporal sync.

janina: As usual, we will take one Wednesday off in November, the oneahead of US Thanksgiving, whcih probably will be the 23rd.

janina: It is also customary to take the last two weeks every year off. The last two Weds in December, that is. That also usually goes for the TFs.

janina: One last item. RQTF has just decided that due to scheduling conflicts that business will be handled asynchronoously over e-mail and Github and such, since teleconference currently is logistically hairy for them.

janina: And alsotodahy is Yom Kippur wjhich means some colleagues will not be on this or other calls today.

zkaim, open next item

New Charters Review https://github.com/w3c/strategy/issues?q=is%3Aissue+is%3Aopen+label%3A%22Horizontal+review+requested%22

Distributed Tracing Working Group Charter

<Roy> - charter: https://w3c.github.io/charter-drafts/2022/distributed-tracing.html

Roy: This week we have one new charter.

Roy: Distributed Tracing WG.

Roy: It's about tracing of interactions with applications and tracing information to indicate that tracing information is available and also collection of information.

janina: To some degree this may be interested inwith Reporting API, perhaps?

Roy: The API is out of their scope I think. They want to do data formatting things.

becky: Quoting from the charter itself. They want to get end-to-end tracing of complex transactiosn interoperable.

janina: We wish them much success. I don't object to this work personally.

PaulG: It says here that they will deal with consent and some mechanism for carrying forth that consent. IT has relations to mitigating fingerprinting and so forth.

PaulG: If they come up with a UI for that consent we want to make sure it gets addressed from an a11y point of view.

janina: Those are my concerns exactly.

janina: We might want to note an a11y interest in the results of their work.

janina: There mayh be a11y implications or opportunities we want to take advantage to protect the a11y of things liike consent.

Roy: Makes sense.

janina: We will want to follow it for just those reasons.

A11y Review Comment Tracker https://w3c.github.io/horizontal-issue-tracker/?repo=w3c/a11y-review

Allow modal dialogs to trap focus, avoiding tabbing to the URL bar

<Roy> - issue: https://github.com/whatwg/html/issues/8339

<Roy> - tracking: https://github.com/w3c/a11y-review/issues/138

Roy: There are three issues.

Roy: Focus Trap.

Roy: PaulG: Focus trapping is... I'm in a dialog which is asking me an importnat question. I want to go the URL bar and possibly bookmark this or another tab and do a little research before I answer that question. Don't make it harder for me. That level of focus trapping is too much.

<Fazio> coga implications too

PaulG: Focus trapping within the browser's viewport is okay, but keeping me from reading the browser's chrome is a bit too much.

janina: I think this needs to be handled carefully. WCAG 2.1 covers that well and I don't think 2.2 makes anythign more precisely.

janina: It would be useful for APA to weigh in with WHATWG on this.

PaulG: This issue was opened by a low-level work expert.

<matatk> +1 to PaulG

PaulG: I don't foresee them making any changes. Maybe it can be written more clearly in the WCAG what the expectations are, because it isn't clear at this point even to developers with dep experience.

janina: So what is the question in our issues list?

PaulG: The last comment, can't you just get to the browser's stuff with hotkeys if you are a keyboard user? Fro someone who is a more or less single key user, it's just a lot simpler to use Tab. Let them tab back to their OS level and get out of this application. The app may not be coded well or whatnot.

janina: We're being asked for an action.

janina: What is the question here really?

Roy: They want an a11y/SR expert to give some comments on this.

matatk: What Paul pointed out and I agree with is that htey have already had experts on these topics comment on it. If we agree with what Scott and Patrick said, whcih we porbably will, we an just +1 the thing and be done. If we're asked for an opinion, we shoudl give it.

becky: There are browser controls to get back to places. If you're tabbing and you expect the tab to say in the dialog and you're suddenly in the address bar, then wanting to shift-tab back to the dialog, that's a lot to develop. I think there should be a focus trap in the dialog in this scenario.

PaulG: There's two ways: the cheaper programmatically is to put a key handlar for the Tab key on elements that are inside the dialog, so looping back around. The more expensive way always was tabindex=-1 on everything except what was in the dialog. You didn't need the extra key handlers.

PaulG: The other thing I should say about these modals is that htey are shoved in to the DOM at the very end. Shfit-tagb would get you back to the dilaog in this scnario but it isn't airtight.

Fazio: COGA implicatiosn galore here. PTSD triggers, confusion and so on.

matatk: My understanding is that you can have something that's modal on the page but if you think of the tab order of the whole system including the browser and the OS, then a modal thing on the page has never been a modal thing system-wide. There may be people who think we should change that.

matatk: It's much more solid to do a modal dialog with inert and so much more reliable these days.

<PaulG> https://caniuse.com/?search=inert

matatk: I foudn it disorienting when making my own custom dialogs to find myself in the address bar until I realized that that si how it works.

matatk: If anyone has trong feelings about it we know where to go.

janina: So do we sign off on this or assign someone to write a comment and then sign off on it?

matatk: Becky has asked the really importnat comment: Isn't this discussion about the dialog element?

becky: I was just thinking because it came ffrom WHATWG it woudl be more about dialog elements, but it's more about showmodal.

matatk: I will try to review this next week.

matatk: Paul is a bit on it as well.

PaulG: If we allow this, you might not be able to get out of the focus traps. You will have to learn a lot of hotkeys around them. For all the bad uses of HTML, this should never happen even in well-meaning circumstances.

PaulG: Considering all the bad ways this may go, I don't think this should happen.

janina: We do care about this and we're not ready to sign off on it.

Set empty string for reflection of IDREF attributes

<Roy> - issue: https://github.com/whatwg/html/pull/8352

<Roy> - tracking: https://github.com/w3c/a11y-review/issues/139

Reflection of IDREF attributes will leave stale ID value

<Roy> - issue: https://github.com/whatwg/html/issues/8306

<Roy> - tracking: https://github.com/w3c/a11y-review/issues/136

Roy: The other two issues are rather easy.

Roy: Those two issues are related to ARIA-WG.

matatk: I'm already subscribed to one of these funnily enough.

matatk: If ARIA is handlign this, we can go easy here.

new on TR http://www.w3.org/TR/tr-status-drafts.html

Roy: Nothing new on TR!

Dangling Spec Review Cleanup: https://www.w3.org/WAI/APA/wiki/Category:Spec_Review_Assigned

matatk: We ahve a CFC.

<matatk> CfC: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-apa-admin/2022Oct/0000.html

TPAC22 Followup https://www.w3.org/WAI/APA/wiki/Meetings/TPAC_2022

janina: I think for the moment we are done in terms finding minutes.

janina: Might there be a possibilitiy of passing those IRC log thourgh a script and get formal minutes, Roy?

janina: Some of the follow-up has already begun.

janina: Some other things are to be taken up.

janina: Anything dangling?

Fazio: I hope we follow up on the topic of accessible authentication - can't remember the joint group's name right now.

Joshue108: Verifiable Credentials!

janina: We will be picking that up in TF reports.

Fazio: Great, thanks!

Task Force & Deliverables Updates


janina: We have taken up digital wallets specifically as verifiable credentials requested that we do early on.

janina: Next step that RQTF agreed to is that we will write to our contacts in VC that we agree, we want to do this with you. What documents of yours do you suggest we start reading to get up to speed and become part of the process?

janina: This will all be on the public RQTF e-mail list.

janina: We had a very ggood conversation about this. It is minuted in the RQTF mintes of the last hour.

janina: RQTF is hoping to publish an PFWD of CAUR (AUR for collaborative tools).

janina: It has been a source of furstration as well as support for many, sometimes at the same time.

Actions Checkin (Specs) https://www.w3.org/WAI/APA/track/actions/open

janina: Tehre are some open actions, some of them on me, some of them fairly old, some recent.

janina: On the other hadn, things are moving up.

Other Business

be done

Other Business

janina: We have a liaison! Thank you Paul for stepping up to offer to be our liaison!

janina: I am highly, highly pleased. On behalf of the group, thank you, adn you get to be it, and we can take some time in an upcoming meeting to dive through teh open issues we have with CSSWG.

janina: Paul shouldn't do all the work, but at least be a guide, being in touych with CSS and all of the work needing to be done.

janina: CSS will also reach out to us. When we do have a formal liaison, we ahve a standard preocedure for checkins with them.

janina: Do you ahve any questiosn, Paul?

PaulG: I just recognized the great work Amy did and I miss it. All the great discussions we had at TPAC, this needs to not go unattended.

PaulG: I'll yield to anyoen feeling more equipped to do it as well. We'll see.

PaulG: Introductions will be made. There will be ap rocess. And then I'll give guidance on navigating our collaborations with CSS.

PaulG: Don't set your expectations too high for me.

janina: There is a little learnign curve involved as well. They will flag things for us and they are very reliable.

janina: Traffic copping is teh most important thing here.

be done

janina: Thanks everyone for all the good work!

janina: We'll be back next week!

matatk: Please remember the CFC and check out the WHATWG issue.

janina: +1!

Minutes manually created (not a transcript), formatted by scribe.perl version 192 (Tue Jun 28 16:55:30 2022 UTC).


Succeeded: s/the WCA/the WCAG/

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Maybe present: Joshue108