Meeting minutes
This meeting
Nigel: Today is our last opportunity to settle our TPAC agenda, because we have a form to fill in.
Gary: Yes, we need the agenda by the end of the month, and they need to set up the group meetings.
Nigel: That's our main agenda topic.
… Then on the agenda today we have DAPT, Rechartering status update.
… Is there any other business?
No other business
Our TPAC agenda, plus joint meetings
Nigel: First thing, anyone attending in person, check the TPAC health requirements.
… There's no choice about doing them - we just do them!
<cyril> https://
nigel: Thursday 15th:
… * 8:00-10:00 MEIG meeting with joint meeting 09:15-10:00 joint meeting
… * 10:00-10:30 Break
… * 10:30-12:30 TTWG meeting
…
… Friday 16th:
… * 08:00-13:00 TTWG meeting with joint section with Media WG 12:00-13:00
…
…
… All Vancouver time. Is that okay with everyone?
Cyril: Is the Media WG meeting on the same day as us?
Chris: Friday afternoon from 14:00
TPAC 2022 Group meeting schedule
Chris: There's a Thursday afternoon joint meeting Media WG and WebRTC
Cyril: And breakout sessions are on the Wednesday?
Chris: Yes
… All the media stuff was pushed to the end of the week in case any folk want to be at IBC first as well.
Cyril: I have a question regarding the health protocol.
… My reading of TPAC is that the only constraints on participants are to wear a mask at all times
… and do a test every morning.
… But there's no rule on what to do outside the meeting.
… If I want to go for dinner in an evening without a mask can I do that?
Chris: My understanding is there's no rule against that.
Nigel: +1
Cyril: Thank you.
… Another question, I don't know if you have the answer, don't give private answers.
… Does anyone in this group have any particular health risks?
Nigel: Nobody has approached me about that.
Gary: Me neither. Unfortunately I think anyone who does probably will not attend in person.
Nigel: Atsushi, did anyone approach you with any health concerns?
Atsushi: I haven't had any discussions with anyone.
<atsushi> https://
Atsushi: I believe we can contact the health desk at any time for extra restrictions.
Nigel: Okay, let's leave it there.
<cpn_> Discussion of health rules is here: https://
Atsushi: It is already very strict!
Nigel: I agree. Any more questions about the health aspects?
No more questions at this time
Nigel: Moving to the agenda topics
… for TPAC.
… One of the tasks is to transcribe the agenda into the specific meetings
… What I have so far, is, for TTWG alone:
… * DAPT-REQs and DAPT issues
… * TTML2 issues (especially any arising from DAPT work?)
… * Future workshops
… * Charter FO
… Anything else to add for the TPAC agenda?
Cyril: Maybe, 2 things. For DAPT-REQs and DAPT issues, can we turn that into an editing session?
… It depends on how many people are present. As both editors will be there we should take the opportunity
… to do some extreme editing!
Nigel: I'd like to do that too.
Cyril: It may be easier to get to FPWD if we have that as a goal.
Nigel: +1
Cyril: The second topic or question is: I don't see IMSC in the list.
… Did you see recently something called imsc-rosetta from YellaUmbrella?
… I don't know if we want to simplifications to IMSC?
Nigel: I certainly have seen it and have some significant concerns.
… I'm happy to leave it, but if someone wants to discuss it we can set time aside.
Pierre: I don't know of any known outstanding issues that need discussion at TPAC other than the HRM refactoring.
Nigel: That's a good point, should we add it to the agenda?
Pierre: I think we just need to crank the process, I don't think there are any outstanding issues.
… We should talk about where it is, today.
Nigel: Okay, I won't add anything.
… The other obvious omission is WebVTT - Gary?
Gary: Probably there isn't anything specific to WebVTT right now.
… I do know that there's a company that's looking to switch to WebVTT but there are missing features,
… and they'll be at FOMS in October, so that will be a better place right now.
Nigel: For the joint meetings:
… With Media WG we have:
… * Behaviour with controls
… * Video element updates around shadow DOM and containing content (NB see breakout session relating to this)
… Anything else?
Nothing else
Nigel: With MEIG:
… * Audio Description and Dubbing
… * Subtitle document rendering complexity
… For the former, that's DAPT
… For the latter, that's the HRM. Pierre, I think you might want to ask about real world data?
Pierre: OK, I'll put that session in my calendar.
… (I won't be attending in person)
Nigel: Anything else for that joint session?
Nothing else
Nigel: I did create a breakout session for the Wednesday, to talk about privacy, accessibility choices and product data,
… which may feed into the session about the video element and the shadow DOM.
Nigel: Anything else for TPAC?
Rechartering status update
Nigel: The Charter has been extended until the end of the calendar year.
… The FOs have been sent to the FO Council.
Atsushi: I'm preparing materials for the FO Council.
… I may get back to the WG later next month or so.
Nigel: If you are able to join the TTWG TPAC meeting we could discuss it there.
Atsushi: I will try to join remotely as much as possible.
Nigel: That's appreciated, thank you.
… I think that's all on rechartering right now.
Atsushi: Nothing more now. Documentation is under preparation.
… Following the FO Council procedure will take a while.
AOB - IMSC HRM
Pierre: It's been a while since we spoke about this. I wonder what the status is.
… We sent liaisons to a bunch of organisations.
Nigel: Yes we did
Pierre: I don't think I've seen anything substantive.
Nigel: I think we maybe had one response, and they didn't ask for any changes.
Pierre: So...
Nigel: ... we can demonstrate that we sought wide review.
Pierre: We have a working draft, so we need to work on tests now, for the next step being CR.
Nigel: Yes
Pierre: Whatever we use to demonstrate implementation experience and interop...
Nigel: That's needed for CR exit.
Pierre: Right. We have one open source implementation.
… We'll have some synthetic sample documents.
… But I think what we wanted was to have independently created sample documents.
… To match the two independent factors.
Nigel: Right, there's no guarantee that we will be chartered with that in our exit criteria, but that's the plan, yes.
Pierre: Assuming we do that, for independently created input documents we could use the IMSC test suite
… but I'm not sure that is in practice a good test.
… Another is to make a call for documents, or to allow people to test their content (privately) and then report.
… Let's say there are 3 users with major libraries of IMSC content and they run the implementation
… against their library, and they report it fails when it should and passes when it should, would we
… consider that sufficient implementation experience?
… Question for everyone on the call.
Cyril: It's doable for Netflix to run the HRM implementation on a subset of content.
… I think I found an issue once before.
Pierre: Nigel and Gary, do you think that you would be happy to present that to the Director?
Nigel: I think it depends on how the organisation comes to the conclusion that the passes or fails are correct.
… If it's an accidental fail, with no prior checking on HRM complexity, that doesn't tell us anything about
… the quality of the specification.
Pierre: Right, though I think unexpected fails do tell us something too, for example
… that the HRM is not appropriate for real world content or that the implementation is wrong.
Nigel: Right, but silent (but wrong) passes also can be occur.
Andreas: Question to understand the proposal, or the thinking.
… Do you mean that testing the open source HRM implementation with a large body of content
… counts as an independent implementation, that for example would meet the requirements
… written in the Charter?
Pierre: I'm assuming the Charter will not require 2 independent implementations.
… If it does, I think we can stop this project right now.
… I would claim that 2 factors, i.e. independent entities creating documents and testing them
… against an open source implementation do count.
Andreas: If an implementation has the goal of producing HRM compliant content and is built to do that
… then it counts as a second implementation?
Nigel: Yes
Pierre: The narrow view is two parsing/rendering implementations.
… I agree, if two independent folk create documents that they think pass the HRM and then it does pass
… an implementation, in my mind that does match the implementation experience requirements.
Nigel: I think it would match the narrow view too.
… It depends on how they have concluded that the HRM has been passed.
Pierre: The next step is to design the tests?
Nigel: Yes
… There's an unasked question here: Pierre has asserted that there won't be another implementation, but
… who have we asked?
Cyril: I don't think it makes sense for players to implement the HRM.
… Content providers, I think, would rely on an open source implementation. One is probably enough.
… I think I'm with Pierre here.
Nigel: I'll leave it out there, if anyone does plan to implement the HRM, do let us know.
<pal> in the worse case, it can stay in CR indefinitely like CSS specs
Meeting close
Nigel: We didn't get to the DAPT agenda topic, I suggest we look at the issues offline.
… Thanks everyone. [adjourns meeting]