15:02:03 RRSAgent has joined #tt 15:02:03 logging to https://www.w3.org/2022/08/18-tt-irc 15:02:05 RRSAgent, make logs Public 15:02:06 Meeting: Timed Text Working Group Teleconference 15:02:15 Agenda: https://github.com/w3c/ttwg/issues/224 15:02:32 Previous meeting: https://www.w3.org/2022/07/21-tt-minutes.html 15:02:37 scribe: nigel 15:02:53 atai has joined #tt 15:03:01 pal has joined #tt 15:03:19 Present: Andreas, Chris_Needham, Cyril, Gary, Hew, Nigel, Pierre 15:03:27 Chair: Gary, Nigel 15:03:49 Topic: This meeting 15:03:52 cyril has joined #tt 15:04:22 Nigel: Today is our last opportunity to settle our TPAC agenda, because we have a form to fill in. 15:04:41 Gary: Yes, we need the agenda by the end of the month, and they need to set up the group meetings. 15:04:54 Nigel: That's our main agenda topic. 15:05:07 cpn_ has joined #tt 15:05:16 .. Then on the agenda today we have DAPT, Rechartering status update. 15:05:21 .. Is there any other business? 15:05:33 No other business 15:06:00 Topic: Our TPAC agenda, plus joint meetings 15:06:49 Nigel: First thing, anyone attending in person, check the TPAC health requirements. 15:06:56 .. There's no choice about doing them - we just do them! 15:07:41 https://www.w3.org/2022/09/TPAC/health.html 15:07:49 -> https://www.w3.org/2022/09/TPAC/health.html TPAC Health requirements 15:08:55 Hew has joined #tt 15:11:00 nigel: Thursday 15th: 15:12:17 .. * 8:00-10:00 MEIG meeting with joint meeting 09:15-10:00 joint meeting 15:12:26 .. * 10:00-10:30 Break 15:12:33 .. * 10:30-12:30 TTWG meeting 15:12:45 .. 15:12:49 .. Friday 16th: 15:13:52 .. * 08:00-13:00 TTWG meeting with joint section with Media WG 12:00-13:00 15:14:11 .. 15:14:11 .. 15:14:20 .. All Vancouver time. Is that okay with everyone? 15:14:30 Cyril: Is the Media WG meeting on the same day as us? 15:14:37 Chris: Friday afternoon from 14:00 15:14:49 -> https://www.w3.org/calendar/tpac2022/group-meetings/ TPAC 2022 Group meeting schedule 15:15:16 Chris: There's a Thursday afternoon joint meeting Media WG and WebRTC 15:15:26 Cyril: And breakout sessions are on the Wednesday? 15:15:31 Chris: Yes 15:15:45 .. All the media stuff was pushed to the end of the week in case any folk want to be at IBC first as well. 15:16:00 Cyril: I have a question regarding the health protocol. 15:16:24 .. My reading of TPAC is that the only constraints on participants are to wear a mask at all times 15:16:29 .. and do a test every morning. 15:16:36 .. But there's no rule on what to do outside the meeting. 15:16:50 .. If I want to go for dinner in an evening without a mask can I do that? 15:16:59 Chris: My understanding is there's no rule against that. 15:17:03 Nigel: +1 15:17:05 Cyril: Thank you. 15:17:45 .. Another question, I don't know if you have the answer, don't give private answers. 15:18:02 .. Does anyone in this group have any particular health risks? 15:18:11 Nigel: Nobody has approached me about that. 15:18:27 Gary: Me neither. Unfortunately I think anyone who does probably will not attend in person. 15:19:09 Nigel: Atsushi, did anyone approach you with any health concerns? 15:20:55 Atsushi: I haven't had any discussions with anyone. 15:20:56 https://www.w3.org/2022/09/TPAC/Overview.html#helpdesk 15:21:15 .. I believe we can contact the health desk at any time for extra restrictions. 15:21:28 Nigel: Okay, let's leave it there. 15:21:38 Discussion of health rules is here: https://github.com/w3c/TPAC2022-Health-rules 15:21:40 Atsushi: It is already very strict! 15:22:08 Nigel: I agree. Any more questions about the health aspects? 15:22:14 No more questions at this time 15:22:34 Nigel: Moving to the agenda topics 15:22:37 .. for TPAC. 15:25:22 .. One of the tasks is to transcribe the agenda into the specific meetings 15:25:35 .. What I have so far, is, for TTWG alone: 15:25:56 .. * DAPT-REQs and DAPT issues 15:25:56 .. * TTML2 issues (especially any arising from DAPT work?) 15:25:56 .. * Future workshops 15:25:58 .. * Charter FO 15:27:08 .. Anything else to add for the TPAC agenda? 15:27:25 Cyril: Maybe, 2 things. For DAPT-REQs and DAPT issues, can we turn that into an editing session? 15:27:40 .. It depends on how many people are present. As both editors will be there we should take the opportunity 15:27:45 .. to do some extreme editing! 15:27:51 Nigel: I'd like to do that too. 15:28:05 Cyril: It may be easier to get to FPWD if we have that as a goal. 15:28:08 Nigel: +1 15:28:21 Cyril: The second topic or question is: I don't see IMSC in the list. 15:28:36 .. Did you see recently something called imsc-rosetta from YellaUmbrella? 15:28:48 .. I don't know if we want to simplifications to IMSC? 15:29:06 Nigel: I certainly have seen it and have some significant concerns. 15:29:32 .. I'm happy to leave it, but if someone wants to discuss it we can set time aside. 15:30:02 Pierre: I don't know of any known outstanding issues that need discussion at TPAC other than the HRM refactoring. 15:30:24 Nigel: That's a good point, should we add it to the agenda? 15:30:38 Pierre: I think we just need to crank the process, I don't think there are any outstanding issues. 15:30:45 .. We should talk about where it is, today. 15:30:52 Nigel: Okay, I won't add anything. 15:31:06 .. The other obvious omission is WebVTT - Gary? 15:31:13 Gary: Probably there isn't anything specific to WebVTT right now. 15:31:26 .. I do know that there's a company that's looking to switch to WebVTT but there are missing features, 15:31:39 .. and they'll be at FOMS in October, so that will be a better place right now. 15:34:34 Nigel: For the joint meetings: 15:34:40 .. With Media WG we have: 15:34:53 .. * Behaviour with controls 15:35:11 .. * Video element updates around shadow DOM and containing content (NB see breakout session relating to this) 15:35:17 .. Anything else? 15:35:19 Nothing else 15:35:24 .. With MEIG: 15:35:31 .. * Audio Description and Dubbing 15:35:40 atai has joined #tt 15:35:42 .. * Subtitle document rendering complexity 15:36:36 .. For the former, that's DAPT 15:37:10 .. For the latter, that's the HRM. Pierre, I think you might want to ask about real world data? 15:37:20 Pierre: OK, I'll put that session in my calendar. 15:37:31 .. (I won't be attending in person) 15:37:59 Nigel: Anything else for that joint session? 15:38:04 Nothing else 15:38:30 Nigel: I did create a breakout session for the Wednesday, to talk about privacy, accessibility choices and product data, 15:38:46 .. which may feed into the session about the video element and the shadow DOM. 15:39:06 -> https://www.w3.org/wiki/TPAC/2022/SessionIdeas Breakout session ideas 15:39:32 Nigel: Anything else for TPAC? 15:40:03 Topic: Rechartering status update 15:40:14 Nigel: The Charter has been extended until the end of the calendar year. 15:40:26 .. The FOs have been sent to the FO Council. 15:40:35 Atsushi: I'm preparing materials for the FO Council. 15:41:06 .. I may get back to the WG later next month or so. 15:41:37 Nigel: If you are able to join the TTWG TPAC meeting we could discuss it there. 15:41:45 Atsushi: I will try to join remotely as much as possible. 15:41:51 Nigel: That's appreciated, thank you. 15:42:07 .. I think that's all on rechartering right now. 15:42:21 Atsushi: Nothing more now. Documentation is under preparation. 15:42:29 .. Following the FO Council procedure will take a while. 15:43:06 Topic: AOB - IMSC HRM 15:43:16 Pierre: It's been a while since we spoke about this. I wonder what the status is. 15:43:22 .. We sent liaisons to a bunch of organisations. 15:43:27 Nigel: Yes we did 15:43:35 Pierre: I don't think I've seen anything substantive. 15:44:06 Nigel: I think we maybe had one response, and they didn't ask for any changes. 15:44:16 Pierre: So... 15:44:24 Nigel: ... we can demonstrate that we sought wide review. 15:44:37 Pierre: We have a working draft, so we need to work on tests now, for the next step being CR. 15:44:39 Nigel: Yes 15:45:07 Pierre: Whatever we use to demonstrate implementation experience and interop... 15:45:16 Nigel: That's needed for CR exit. 15:45:36 Pierre: Right. We have one open source implementation. 15:45:42 .. We'll have some synthetic sample documents. 15:45:54 .. But I think what we wanted was to have independently created sample documents. 15:46:00 .. To match the two independent factors. 15:46:26 Nigel: Right, there's no guarantee that we will be chartered with that in our exit criteria, but that's the plan, yes. 15:46:44 Pierre: Assuming we do that, for independently created input documents we could use the IMSC test suite 15:46:53 .. but I'm not sure that is in practice a good test. 15:47:22 .. Another is to make a call for documents, or to allow people to test their content (privately) and then report. 15:47:37 .. Let's say there are 3 users with major libraries of IMSC content and they run the implementation 15:48:09 .. against their library, and they report it fails when it should and passes when it should, would we 15:48:17 .. consider that sufficient implementation experience? 15:48:29 .. Question for everyone on the call. 15:48:46 q+ 15:49:01 Cyril: It's doable for Netflix to run the HRM implementation on a subset of content. 15:49:07 .. I think I found an issue once before. 15:49:25 Pierre: Nigel and Gary, do you think that you would be happy to present that to the Director? 15:49:30 ack n 15:51:44 Nigel: I think it depends on how the organisation comes to the conclusion that the passes or fails are correct. 15:52:04 .. If it's an accidental fail, with no prior checking on HRM complexity, that doesn't tell us anything about 15:52:07 .. the quality of the specification. 15:52:36 q+ 15:53:09 Pierre: Right, though I think unexpected fails do tell us something too, for example 15:54:00 .. that the HRM is not appropriate for real world content or that the implementation is wrong. 15:54:16 Nigel: Right, but silent (but wrong) passes also can be occur. 15:54:19 ack a 15:54:29 Andreas: Question to understand the proposal, or the thinking. 15:54:42 .. Do you mean that testing the open source HRM implementation with a large body of content 15:54:56 .. counts as an independent implementation, that for example would meet the requirements 15:55:00 .. written in the Charter? 15:55:10 Pierre: I'm assuming the Charter will not require 2 independent implementations. 15:55:17 .. If it does, I think we can stop this project right now. 15:55:38 .. I would claim that 2 factors, i.e. independent entities creating documents and testing them 15:55:55 .. against an open source implementation do count. 15:56:22 Andreas: If an implementation has the goal of producing HRM compliant content and is built to do that 15:56:28 .. then it counts as a second implementation? 15:56:30 Nigel: Yes 15:56:42 Pierre: The narrow view is two parsing/rendering implementations. 15:56:58 .. I agree, if two independent folk create documents that they think pass the HRM and then it does pass 15:57:15 .. an implementation, in my mind that does match the implementation experience requirements. 15:57:25 Nigel: I think it would match the narrow view too. 15:58:35 .. It depends on how they have concluded that the HRM has been passed. 15:59:01 Pierre: The next step is to design the tests? 15:59:03 Nigel: Yes 15:59:45 .. There's an unasked question here: Pierre has asserted that there won't be another implementation, but 15:59:50 .. who have we asked? 15:59:59 Cyril: I don't think it makes sense for players to implement the HRM. 16:00:14 .. Content providers, I think, would rely on an open source implementation. One is probably enough. 16:00:19 .. I think I'm with Pierre here. 16:01:20 Nigel: I'll leave it out there, if anyone does plan to implement the HRM, do let us know. 16:01:30 in the worse case, it can stay in CR indefinitely like CSS specs 16:03:54 Topic: Meeting close 16:04:10 Nigel: We didn't get to the DAPT agenda topic, I suggest we look at the issues offline. 16:04:17 .. Thanks everyone. [adjourns meeting] 16:04:24 rrsagent, make minutes 16:04:24 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/08/18-tt-minutes.html nigel 16:06:49 Present+ Atsushi 16:10:09 s/.. With MEIG:/Nigel: With MEIG: 16:11:55 rrsagent, make minutes 16:11:55 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/08/18-tt-minutes.html nigel 16:12:52 scribeOptions: -final -noEmbedDiagnostics 16:12:55 zakim, end meeting 16:12:55 As of this point the attendees have been Andreas, Chris_Needham, Cyril, Gary, Hew, Nigel, Pierre, Atsushi 16:12:57 RRSAgent, please draft minutes v2 16:12:57 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/08/18-tt-minutes.html Zakim 16:13:00 I am happy to have been of service, nigel; please remember to excuse RRSAgent. Goodbye 16:13:04 Zakim has left #tt 16:17:26 rrsagent, excuse us 16:17:26 I see no action items