Cognitive and Learning Disabilities Accessibility Task Force Teleconference

07 April 2022


Fazio, Jan, Jennie, JohnRochford, kirkwood, Rachael, Rashmi, ShawnT

Meeting minutes

<Lisa> Updates with task requests and actions <https://docs.google.com/document/d/15HtPkkYx1CIl6bAwP2nsSZKhqTVbqcuMDRz5RmtmvXg/edit#

<Lisa> steves website at Cognitive accessibility objectives and design patterns are now available as a set of web pages from: Cognitive Accessibility Guidance list https://www.w3.org/WAI/WCAG2/supplemental/#cognitiveaccessibilityguidance

<Lisa> join #coga-community

<Lisa> take up item 6

<Lisa> close item 6


<Lisa> +present

Thank you Lisa


<Lisa> please sign up to scribe: https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/task-forces/coga/wiki/Scribe_list

<Lisa> close item 5

<Lisa> next item

<Jennie> * If anyone needs a lesson on how to sign up to scribe and appreciate a walk through - I am happy to help.

Lisa mentioned there were a couple of updates

<Lisa> https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/task-forces/coga/wiki/Subgroups

Lisa has updated the subgroups page

<Lisa> steves site : https://www.w3.org/WAI/WCAG2/supplemental/#cognitiveaccessibilityguidance

<kirkwood> wait are we in a differnt zoom channel?

Steve Lee has published the supplemental information.

Jenny asked about the subgroup dates. Global Accessibility day May 19th clashes with a subgroup date. Everyone involved in GAAD so date removed.

<Jennie> *Appreciate having this schedule!

Jumping to Item 7 as Alastair and Rachel have just joined

visible controls

Summary for visual controls - Rachel gives an intro - Visual controls at risk but now 3 weeks away from making a decision as whether it stays - has been worked on

Alastair explains the final hurdle - problems with visual affordances and expectations... if something has controls that appear on hover there must be something that states that there is a visual indicator available.

<kirkwood> ok thanks we came over thank you

Alastair researched the results of a series of controls with visual indicators to see if there was agreement about the different types and what came within the scope of the SC

<Rachael> examples document used: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Cn9SvuOiu_m-phcyK5IdtipNzyoM2pkcCHbnWfcqsNc/edit

<Zakim> Lisa, you wanted to ask if we can we see the page of use cases

The difficulty is that some of the items that have pop out menus and some don't and there is no differentiation so a problem with expectations. No indicator in place or having an indicator not reliably testable.

Rachel said the feeling is that it still needs to come back to coga. Asked if there was an insight into making it easier to solve the problem and get concensus

<Fazio> +1 Lisa

Should it be withdrawn or as Lisa suggested there may be a different concensus within cogo compared to AG - Asked Alastair if he could explain the page provided with the link above.

<Fazio> hover over controls without a static indicator were the problem to begin with

<Rachael> Current wording working document: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1GfEgRs99CBc9vVHhCNowwj07v6UDGb-2QaB9IlfBZ5A/edit#heading=h.nshunds56c64

<kirkwood> doesn’t ‘on hover’ eliminate all touch screens?

Lisa asked what passes and what fails... but Alastair said there are some exceptions - the question is if you hover over a thing - would you get more controls? hard to explain - something that is a trigger do you get more controls if you hover over it?

<Lisa> Current wording working document: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1GfEgRs99CBc9vVHhCNowwj07v6UDGb-2QaB9IlfBZ5A/edit#heading=h.nshunds56c64

<Rachael> examples document used: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Cn9SvuOiu_m-phcyK5IdtipNzyoM2pkcCHbnWfcqsNc/edit

Lisa suggested it is important to look at the examples in the document as there is ambiguity e.g. there are examples that are not known for hover such as the tab example

Lisa asked is this the thing that needs to be defined... what's known as or established as an indicator? Needs a better definition - what and where they are for instance in the operating system or in a published design guide. Somethng that says this is an established mode / technique

<Lisa> published for at least a year, such as, operating system best practices, or the aria design guide

Alastair agreed that because there is no common expectation what a visual indicator may be - providing the explanations may be hard as they are constantly being updated and seem to have their own conventions

JohnR said that he agreed as well but has as issue we are leaving out all kiosk and other proprietory interfaces - need to include this as leave it out there will be a huge gap

Lisa is asking Alastair if it would work with a published design guide where we are aware of things at the moment that work.

alternatively best practices would at least make people think about it even if they break it.

<Fazio> +1 Lisa

Lisa went on to say give some examples + a design guide then it is at least familiar and put this in the understanding document.

Alastair - not sure about the coverage of the design guides with good examples. The problem is that there may be poor examples which makes it harder to test in particularly internationally. May not know if they are using a know design guide

<Zakim> alastairc, you wanted to ask about coverage of design guides

<kirkwood> a suggestion: How to use this interface’.. to understand surface ‘hidden’ capabilities?

Rachel suggested that WCAG 3 - test scenario - website has to state the conventions that they are using internally to them - this assumes a structure that is not at present in place. May be what we do with guidelines in the future. Even if it goes in AAA there is not time to really secure a way of working with it at present - hard with only 3 weeks left.

<Zakim> ShawnT, you wanted to say what were the options in the poll from the AG meeting?

Sean mentioned a poll at the AG meeting took place and maybe we can do that again first before trying to do it all again

<Rachael> straw poll: 1) Continue refining 2) Start discussion to remove it from WCAG 2.2 and check in with COGA 3) Move to AAA and check in with COGA

Alastair mentioned that all the options included coming back to coga.

<Rachael> Sorry, final straw poll: 1) Continue refining 2) Consider removing it from WCAG 2.2 and check in with COGA 3) Consider moving to AAA and check in with COGA 4) Harder AAA and an easy to pas AA and check in with COGA

Sean sorry should be ShawT -

<Rachael> 2 or 3 were the likely items

Lisa asked was moving it to AA is too late?

<alastairc> kirkwood - I don't think the kiosk / mobile aspect is a problem here, if you are designing for that it won't use hover.

Rachel said that this was not the original issue and Lisa commented that no one would be asked to make a design guide - it could be a wiki page - it would help to say what design guide is being used for conformance - only for companies doing the testing.

Alastair felt this would not work for WCAG 2 as not it is pass or fail but as soon as it gets into whether there is good context it is hard to be + or -

<Rachael> Current wording working document: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1GfEgRs99CBc9vVHhCNowwj07v6UDGb-2QaB9IlfBZ5A/edit#heading=h.nshunds56c64

Lisa asked if anyone had any idea as to how the situation could be resolved.

<alastairc> I have to drop now, but can pick up on minutes / email later.

Lisa suggested 1. brainstorm on another day and try to find a solution 2. If it does not get through possibly try it as a AAA

<ShawnT> I'd like it to be at lease AAA instead of dropping it

<kirkwood> no point in going to AAA, is my vote

<ShawnT> how can we move it to AA in WCAG 2.3?

Rachel - Everyone in AG agrees this is a really important SC - members would support any effort but Rachel feels it is demonstrating the failure of WCAG 2x and there is not enough in it as it need to cope with context.

<kirkwood> alastair: designing separtely for mobile/kiosk is too much of a burden, hence a standard, no?

Suggestion that Abi James joins and talks to Michael Gower - the context is all important and this is what makes it so hard to get it passed with the present testing

<Zakim> Rachael, you wanted to answer the AA / AAA

ShawnT says that if you move to AAA it may make it harder to get it back up to AA - If you are not aware of the hover over action it is so tough to understand where where the different visible key controls come into play

<Jennie> *And is our time better spent preparing it for 3.0? Knowing we may have limited resources to allocate.

<ShawnT> +1 if that's the case for 2.2 being the last one

Rachel - agrees that the AAA and AA level issue is an issue but getting it into AAA might not be such a downside problem. In the future it will be easier to move between levels in WCAG 3 which will be very different.

So no risk now in putting it into AAA now so at least it is there for the future

<Fazio> +1 John

<Lisa> +1 to john

JohnK agrees that it is already intergrated in a lot of design series so not such a big thing to get this done.

Lisa added that the issue is not that it is difficult to do but we need to get it through WCAG

<Rashmi> I will have to drop off for now , will join mental health subgroup meeting

<ShawnT> +1 to the meeting

Lisa asked 1. who feels it is worth having a 2 hour meeting to see if it can be done?

<Lisa> who wants a meeting?

<Fazio> +1

<ShawnT> +1

<Lisa> +1 is yes, 0 is no idea, -1 no

<JohnRochford> 0

+0 as sadly no time next week

<Jennie> 0

<kirkwood> +1

<Fazio> LOL no

Lisa has suggested that the action should be taken on but coordinate it all

Lisa can send an email to Michael Gower

ShawnT has said he can coordinate it all but not done it before - needs email addresses

<Fazio> Theres a coga list

<Jennie> *As an invited expert, many of us don't have full emails lists.

Rachael will set up a zoom call for the event.

There is two weeks for the planning

<Rachael> I can pull that out.

ShawnT asked if the document that Alastair wrote - do it live during the meeting having read it beforehand if possible coming with questions - wording and example page. Lisa felt it is worth another shot - needs to be brainstormed and Shawn asked if it was possible to see the replies from the survey AG undertook

<Rachael> +1 to Mike G being crucial

<Rachael> survey results at: https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/wcag22-visible-controls/results

<kirkwood> fyi: alastair all kiosks in nyc use html rendering, not proprietary ap ux

Lisa is concerned about times as it is Passover and Easter and there is no meeting next week. Lisa asked the next question - would we want it to go to AAA

<Lisa> if we cant get AA do want AAA

<Fazio> doesn't make sense to me

<Rachael> I have turned the survey on until the 15th so please review before then.

<Lisa> +1 yes, 0 is no idea, -1 is no

<kirkwood> -1

David feels that the problem is that it is not testable and but this is not helpful as it the extra effort to test should not be based on how hard it is to test

<ShawnT> +1 to over complicating it

David feels it is being made to sound to complicated

<Rachael> It is not so much that it is not testable so much as the results vary.

Do we leave it out altogether if we cannot agree to it going to AAA?

<ShawnT> Can we simplify it for AA and make it more complicated for AAA?

<kirkwood> my argument is that pragmatically it is already being done (html) however not in proprietary interfaces

ShawnT said there are lots of questions around WCAG 3 not being really something that is going to happen soon. So what happens then even if we find a solution

<JohnRochford> +1 to concerns David is expressing

<ShawnT> +1 to david

Lisa said should we push it to AA

<kirkwood> -1 to AAA

<JohnRochford> -1 to AAA

No one seems to want it at AAA

<Lisa> Does anyone want to push for AAA?

Rachael says thank you for being so clear and hopes that the revision makes a success of it all

Lisa thinks we should look at ideas that are similar to other SCs that have exclusions and other ways of getting round the issues - narrow the scope

<Jennie> * Lisa's suggestions are excellent.

Rachael has said that she is out Mon-Weds and will try to support Lisa but a busy week ahead - However will try to make it happen at AA not AAA level and thanked Rachael and Alastair for their explanation about the issues that had arisen with the potential AC

SC not AC - visual indicator on hover

<Lisa> q Monday, April 11: 9am ET

EO draft for coga will occur on April 11 9am ET

<Lisa> eo meeting monday 9 et

<Lisa> 2 pm UK

<Lisa> https://www.w3.org/WAI/WCAG2/supplemental/#cognitiveaccessibilityguidance

<Lisa> steves website:

<JohnRochford> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-wai-announce/2022JanMar/0005.html

<JohnRochford> Steve's site.

Lisa said there would be more chances to comment on the website for any iterations

<JohnRochford> https://www.w3.org/WAI/WCAG2/supplemental/#cognitiveaccessibilityguidance

<JohnRochford> That's Steve's site.

<Lisa> i am not sure that there will be iterations

NO meeting next week - please note. Action items Jennie on Guardianship if it will fit with the time that Michael has set up so may not happen on the next two weeks.

Michael agreed this will be delayed till after the holiday period

No coga meeting

No subgroups unless people are available - nothing scheduled 11- 15th April

JohnR subgroup meeting asked which group this week - Mental Health after the present meeting.

New mailing list to work through the silver list issues

Lisa asked if any other ideas - nothing urgent

<Jennie> +1 to John R's kudos on the email list set up!

<ShawnT> Bye everyone

mental health

<Jennie> Talk to everyone one in 2 weeks

<Lisa> please start the zoom call! we have a new meeting!

<Lisa> i reopended it. Thanks

<Lisa> please log in again! https://www.w3.org/2017/08/telecon-info_coga

<Lisa> https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/task-forces/coga/wiki/Subgroups/Mental_Health

<Lisa> form: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIpQLSeGrqJKV7RluoYrKHJN8cBJH3w9sDx7lAlAhcV0BeBTUVybkw/viewform

<Lisa> instuctions and goodle docs of papers to look at : https://docs.google.com/document/d/1XWmikm5Ein5CQ02knEJ5iGzO1YJMilTMBJ_aLVCTzs0/edit#heading=h.bc4vqyklmnk0

<jennz> jennz /join

<Lisa> spead sheet: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1eKNrofGubnpQE6mO-vxmI-1MW5nA2LDj0LxebREPRGA/edit?resourcekey#gid=1686096268

<Lisa> are there need for new pattern: https://www.w3.org/TR/coga-usable/#design_for_everyone

<Lisa> form: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIpQLSeGrqJKV7RluoYrKHJN8cBJH3w9sDx7lAlAhcV0BeBTUVybkw/viewform

<Lisa> also look for info for issue papers

<Lisa> https://w3c.github.io/coga/issue-papers/

<Lisa> also wayfinding and convesational interfaces

<Lisa> scedule: https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/task-forces/coga/wiki/Subgroups

<Lisa> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1JXa94s2lbzJ0v9FHasxxws3CsOcljHHBdlQ2VOxYqAQ/edit

<Lisa> time lines: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1JXa94s2lbzJ0v9FHasxxws3CsOcljHHBdlQ2VOxYqAQ/edit

<Lisa> how much time in lit review

<Lisa> Rashmi: we also need to dermin what topics to look at?

<Lisa> detiming what topic / scope next meeting. (such as elerning)

<Lisa> Jen: ms have a lit review and testable guidines

<Lisa> Jen: will share what we can

<Lisa> John: When using teams it seems very relivent

<Lisa> rashmi: shows screen with example of bad error message, and controls location issue

<Lisa> were submit button is beofre the capture, so you dont notice it

<Lisa> scope: he Mental Health Subgroup is working on a research module on Web accessibility to effectively address accessibility needs for those with behavioral and mental health disorders. This may result in new user stories, user needs, patterns and other guidance in Making content usable for people with cognitive and learning disabilities. This work was requested after the overlap between cognitive abilities and mental health became clear. Definition: M[CUT]

<Lisa> the litrary review should included: accessibility/ usabiluty

<Lisa> and designes or patterns content that can couses harm

<Lisa> it includeds: spcial media, ecoumerce, safety , elearnign

<Lisa> social media

<Lisa> https://www.w3.org/TR/coga-user-research/

<Lisa> https://www.w3.org/TR/coga-user-research/#methodology-in-user-research

<Lisa> we should included the things there

<Lisa> we should bring this to the main group

<Lisa> mobile health -applications specificaly

<Lisa> jan: certifications and evaluation

<Lisa> accomidations

<jennz> jennz /join

ACTION: Jan to look at this topic

<trackbot> Created ACTION-340 - look at this topic [on Jan McSorley - due 2022-04-14].

<Lisa> Rashmi: Full access needed: Lupton D. The digitally engaged patient: self-monitoring and self-care in the digital health era. Soc Theory Health. 2013;11:256–70. https://link.springer.com/article/10.1057%2Fsth.2013.10 Rashmi :Achtyes ED, Ben-Zeev D, Luo Z, Mayle H, Burke B, Rotondi AJ, et al. Off-hours use of a smartphone intervention to extend support for individuals with schizophrenia spectrum disorders recently discharged from a psychiatric hos[CUT]

<Lisa> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1XWmikm5Ein5CQ02knEJ5iGzO1YJMilTMBJ_aLVCTzs0/edit#heading=h.b3q5kf3eauwo

<Lisa> https://www.w3.org/TR/coga-user-research/#methodology-in-user-research

<Lisa> John: add asking what modality they prefer to use (as this is an accomidation)

<Lisa> (and what they aviode)

<Lisa> and how they give feedback

Summary of action items

  1. Jan to look at this topic
Minutes manually created (not a transcript), formatted by scribe.perl version 185 (Thu Dec 2 18:51:55 2021 UTC).


Succeeded: s/JohnR/JohnK