12:08:43 RRSAgent has joined #coga 12:08:43 logging to https://www.w3.org/2022/04/07-coga-irc 12:08:45 RRSAgent, make logs public 12:08:45 Zakim has joined #coga 12:08:47 Meeting: Cognitive and Learning Disabilities Accessibility Task Force Teleconference 12:08:47 Date: 07 April 2022 12:08:49 Updates with task requests and actions regrets: Julie 12:09:24 agenda+ Updates with task requests and actions. See https://docs.google.com/document/d/15HtPkkYx1CIl6bAwP2nsSZKhqTVbqcuMDRz5RmtmvXg/edit# 12:10:09 agenda+ Subgroups , what we have, what we need, and timelines. See https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/task-forces/coga/wiki/Subgroups 12:10:47 agenda+ Final adjustments. See: o timeline agenda+ How to organize research for each pattern - see https://docs.google.com/document/d/1U3gdQesJHTmLZ2H62_23olZD3jZ-5SEMBZxhb-RsQsY/edit?usp=sharing 12:17:10 scribe: EA 12:18:22 agenda+ please sign up to scribe: https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/task-forces/coga/wiki/Scribe_list 12:24:59 Agenda+ next few weeks 12:39:41 steves website at Cognitive accessibility objectives and design patterns are now available as a set of web pages from: Cognitive Accessibility Guidance list https://www.w3.org/WAI/WCAG2/supplemental/#cognitiveaccessibilityguidance 12:41:26 agenda? 12:56:15 join #coga-community 12:57:43 Roy has joined #coga 13:19:41 take up item 6 13:19:58 close item 6 13:51:36 Lisa has joined #coga 13:51:41 agenda? 13:52:48 Fazio has joined #coga 13:53:41 agenda+ visible controls 13:56:30 ShawnT has joined #coga 13:56:45 present+ 14:00:27 Jennie has joined #coga 14:00:34 present+ 14:01:19 EA has joined #coga 14:01:35 agenda+ ag updates 14:01:41 agenda+ 14:01:43 +Present 14:01:48 +present 14:02:07 scribe: EA 14:02:16 Thank you Lisa 14:02:22 agenda? 14:02:46 Rashmi has joined #coga 14:02:54 present+ 14:03:00 Ready 14:03:15 please sign up to scribe: https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/task-forces/coga/wiki/Scribe_list 14:03:24 JohnRochford has joined #coga 14:03:28 present+ 14:03:28 close item 5 14:03:47 next item 14:04:04 * If anyone needs a lesson on how to sign up to scribe and appreciate a walk through - I am happy to help. 14:04:10 Lisa mentioned there were a couple of updates 14:04:12 https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/task-forces/coga/wiki/Subgroups 14:04:29 Lisa has updated the subgroups page 14:04:39 q+ 14:04:40 steves site : https://www.w3.org/WAI/WCAG2/supplemental/#cognitiveaccessibilityguidance 14:04:54 ack next 14:04:56 wait are we in a differnt zoom channel? 14:04:59 Steve Lee has published the supplemental information. 14:05:12 Roy has joined #coga 14:05:49 Jenny asked about the subgroup dates. Global Accessibility day May 19th clashes with a subgroup date. Everyone involved in GAAD so date removed. 14:05:50 *Appreciate having this schedule! 14:06:11 present+ 14:06:32 Jumping to Item 7 as Alastair and Rachel have just joined 14:06:46 zakim, take up item 7 14:06:46 agendum 7 -- visible controls -- taken up [from Lisa] 14:07:34 Summary for visual controls - Rachel gives an intro - Visual controls at risk but now 3 weeks away from making a decision as whether it stays - has been worked on 14:08:32 Alastair explains the final hurdle - problems with visual affordances and expectations... if something has controls that appear on hover there must be something that states that there is a visual indicator available. 14:09:02 ok thanks we came over thank you 14:09:08 present+ 14:09:18 q+ can we see the page of use cases 14:09:24 present+ 14:09:37 Alastair researched the results of a series of controls with visual indicators to see if there was agreement about the different types and what came within the scope of the SC 14:09:38 q+ to ask if we can we see the page of use cases 14:10:36 examples document used: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Cn9SvuOiu_m-phcyK5IdtipNzyoM2pkcCHbnWfcqsNc/edit 14:10:41 present+ 14:10:44 ack me 14:10:44 Lisa, you wanted to ask if we can we see the page of use cases 14:10:47 The difficulty is that some of the items that have pop out menus and some don't and there is no differentiation so a problem with expectations. No indicator in place or having an indicator not reliably testable. 14:11:31 ack Lisa 14:11:43 Rachel said the feeling is that it still needs to come back to coga. Asked if there was an insight into making it easier to solve the problem and get concensus 14:12:20 +1 Lisa 14:12:44 Should it be withdrawn or as Lisa suggested there may be a different concensus within cogo compared to AG - Asked Alastair if he could explain the page provided with the link above. 14:12:51 hover over controls without a static indicator were the problem to begin with 14:13:03 Current wording working document: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1GfEgRs99CBc9vVHhCNowwj07v6UDGb-2QaB9IlfBZ5A/edit#heading=h.nshunds56c64 14:13:38 doesn’t ‘on hover’ eliminate all touch screens? 14:13:40 Lisa asked what passes and what fails... but Alastair said there are some exceptions - the question is if you hover over a thing - would you get more controls? hard to explain - something that is a trigger do you get more controls if you hover over it? 14:13:55 Current wording working document: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1GfEgRs99CBc9vVHhCNowwj07v6UDGb-2QaB9IlfBZ5A/edit#heading=h.nshunds56c64 14:14:06 examples document used: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Cn9SvuOiu_m-phcyK5IdtipNzyoM2pkcCHbnWfcqsNc/edit 14:14:45 Lisa suggested it is important to look at the examples in the document as there is ambiguity e.g. there are examples that are not known for hover such as the tab example 14:16:17 q+ 14:16:34 Lisa asked is this the thing that needs to be defined... what's known as or established as an indicator? Needs a better definition - what and where they are for instance in the operating system or in a published design guide. Somethng that says this is an established mode / technique 14:16:43 q+ [every kiosk & mobile touchscreen] removed from all established design standards/guidance we have created 14:16:51 ack next 14:18:05 published for at least a year, such as, operating system best practices, or the aria design guide 14:18:14 q+ 14:18:15 Alastair agreed that because there is no common expectation what a visual indicator may be - providing the explanations may be hard as they are constantly being updated and seem to have their own conventions 14:19:04 q+ 14:19:36 JohnR said that he agreed as well but has as issue we are leaving out all kiosk and other proprietory interfaces - need to include this as leave it out there will be a huge gap 14:19:37 ack next 14:20:12 Lisa is asking Alastair if it would work with a published design guide where we are aware of things at the moment that work. 14:20:42 q+ to ask about coverage of design guides 14:20:43 alternatively best practices would at least make people think about it even if they break it. 14:21:44 +1 Lisa 14:21:52 Lisa went on to say give some examples + a design guide then it is at least familiar and put this in the understanding document. 14:21:57 q+ to say what were the options in the poll from the AG meeting? 14:23:24 Alastair - not sure about the coverage of the design guides with good examples. The problem is that there may be poor examples which makes it harder to test in particularly internationally. May not know if they are using a know design guide 14:23:24 ack me 14:23:24 alastairc, you wanted to ask about coverage of design guides 14:23:24 ack next 14:23:49 q+ hard to test, and a bit of a pain 14:24:08 q+ Lisa 14:24:10 a suggestion: How to use this interface’.. to understand surface ‘hidden’ capabilities? 14:24:15 q- hard 14:25:00 Rachel suggested that WCAG 3 - test scenario - website has to state the conventions that they are using internally to them - this assumes a structure that is not at present in place. May be what we do with guidelines in the future. Even if it goes in AAA there is not time to really secure a way of working with it at present - hard with only 3 weeks left. 14:25:02 ack next 14:25:03 ShawnT, you wanted to say what were the options in the poll from the AG meeting? 14:25:36 Sean mentioned a poll at the AG meeting took place and maybe we can do that again first before trying to do it all again 14:26:10 straw poll: 1) Continue refining 2) Start discussion to remove it from WCAG 2.2 and check in with COGA 3) Move to AAA and check in with COGA 14:26:16 Alastair mentioned that all the options included coming back to coga. 14:26:23 ack next 14:26:41 Sorry, final straw poll: 1) Continue refining 2) Consider removing it from WCAG 2.2 and check in with COGA 3) Consider moving to AAA and check in with COGA 4) Harder AAA and an easy to pas AA and check in with COGA 14:26:46 Sean sorry should be ShawT - 14:26:56 2 or 3 were the likely items 14:27:51 Lisa asked was moving it to AA is too late? 14:28:22 kirkwood - I don't think the kiosk / mobile aspect is a problem here, if you are designing for that it won't use hover. 14:28:51 Rachel said that this was not the original issue and Lisa commented that no one would be asked to make a design guide - it could be a wiki page - it would help to say what design guide is being used for conformance - only for companies doing the testing. 14:29:32 Q? 14:29:49 Alastair felt this would not work for WCAG 2 as not it is pass or fail but as soon as it gets into whether there is good context it is hard to be + or - 14:30:05 Current wording working document: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1GfEgRs99CBc9vVHhCNowwj07v6UDGb-2QaB9IlfBZ5A/edit#heading=h.nshunds56c64 14:30:20 Lisa asked if anyone had any idea as to how the situation could be resolved. 14:30:46 q+ 14:30:58 q+ 14:31:00 I have to drop now, but can pick up on minutes / email later. 14:31:20 Lisa suggested 1. brainstorm on another day and try to find a solution 2. If it does not get through possibly try it as a AAA 14:31:36 I'd like it to be at lease AAA instead of dropping it 14:31:57 no point in going to AAA, is my vote 14:32:40 how can we move it to AA in WCAG 2.3? 14:33:18 Rachel - Everyone in AG agrees this is a really important SC - members would support any effort but Rachel feels it is demonstrating the failure of WCAG 2x and there is not enough in it as it need to cope with context. 14:33:31 ack next 14:34:32 alastair: designing separtely for mobile/kiosk is too much of a burden, hence a standard, no? 14:35:04 ack next 14:35:19 Suggestion that Abi James joins and talks to Michael Gower - the context is all important and this is what makes it so hard to get it passed with the present testing 14:35:33 q+ to answer the AA / AAA 14:36:00 q+ 14:36:26 ack next 14:36:27 Rachael, you wanted to answer the AA / AAA 14:36:29 ShawnT says that if you move to AAA it may make it harder to get it back up to AA - If you are not aware of the hover over action it is so tough to understand where where the different visible key controls come into play 14:37:24 *And is our time better spent preparing it for 3.0? Knowing we may have limited resources to allocate. 14:37:38 +1 if that's the case for 2.2 being the last one 14:37:47 ack next 14:37:48 Rachel - agrees that the AAA and AA level issue is an issue but getting it into AAA might not be such a downside problem. In the future it will be easier to move between levels in WCAG 3 which will be very different. 14:38:10 So no risk now in putting it into AAA now so at least it is there for the future 14:38:28 +1 John 14:38:41 +1 to john 14:38:42 JohnR agrees that it is already intergrated in a lot of design series so not such a big thing to get this done. 14:39:32 Lisa added that the issue is not that it is difficult to do but we need to get it through WCAG 14:39:39 I will have to drop off for now , will join mental health subgroup meeting 14:40:00 +1 to the meeting 14:40:03 s/JohnR/JohnK 14:40:06 Lisa asked 1. who feels it is worth having a 2 hour meeting to see if it can be done? 14:40:12 who wants a meeting? 14:40:19 +1 14:40:24 +1 14:40:33 +1 is yes, 0 is no idea, -1 no 14:40:34 0 14:40:40 +0 as sadly no time next week 14:40:40 0 14:40:40 +1 14:41:04 LOL no 14:41:17 Lisa has suggested that the action should be taken on but coordinate it all 14:41:39 q+ 14:41:40 Lisa can send an email to Michael Gower 14:42:00 ShawnT has said he can coordinate it all but not done it before - needs email addresses 14:42:03 Theres a coga list 14:42:22 *As an invited expert, many of us don't have full emails lists. 14:42:28 Rachael will set up a zoom call for the event. 14:42:54 There is two weeks for the planning 14:44:10 I can pull that out. 14:44:18 ShawnT asked if the document that Alastair wrote - do it live during the meeting having read it beforehand if possible coming with questions - wording and example page. Lisa felt it is worth another shot - needs to be brainstormed and Shawn asked if it was possible to see the replies from the survey AG undertook 14:44:46 +1 to Mike G being crucial 14:44:50 ack next 14:45:01 survey results at: https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/wcag22-visible-controls/results 14:45:26 fyi: alastair all kiosks in nyc use html rendering, not proprietary ap ux 14:45:41 Lisa is concerned about times as it is Passover and Easter and there is no meeting next week. Lisa asked the next question - would we want it to go to AAA 14:45:48 if we cant get AA do want AAA 14:45:53 doesn't make sense to me 14:45:56 I have turned the survey on until the 15th so please review before then. 14:46:06 +1 yes, 0 is no idea, -1 is no 14:46:06 -1 14:47:14 David feels that the problem is that it is not testable and but this is not helpful as it the extra effort to test should not be based on how hard it is to test 14:47:19 +1 to over complicating it 14:47:33 David feels it is being made to sound to complicated 14:47:37 It is not so much that it is not testable so much as the results vary. 14:47:51 Do we leave it out altogether if we cannot agree to it going to AAA? 14:48:34 Can we simplify it for AA and make it more complicated for AAA? 14:48:46 my argument is that pragmatically it is already being done (html) however not in proprietary interfaces 14:48:48 ShawnT said there are lots of questions around WCAG 3 not being really something that is going to happen soon. So what happens then even if we find a solution 14:48:49 +1 to concerns David is expressing 14:49:03 +1 to david 14:49:10 Lisa said should we push it to AA 14:49:20 -1 to AAA 14:49:23 -1 to AAA 14:49:23 q+ 14:49:23 No one seems to want it at AAA 14:49:27 Does anyone want to push for AAA? 14:49:33 ack next 14:49:52 Rachael says thank you for being so clear and hopes that the revision makes a success of it all 14:50:48 Lisa thinks we should look at ideas that are similar to other SCs that have exclusions and other ways of getting round the issues - narrow the scope 14:51:02 * Lisa's suggestions are excellent. 14:52:35 agenda? 14:52:48 Rachael has said that she is out Mon-Weds and will try to support Lisa but a busy week ahead - However will try to make it happen at AA not AAA level and thanked Rachael and Alastair for their explanation about the issues that had arisen with the potential AC 14:53:02 SC not AC - visual indicator on hover 14:53:02 q Monday, April 11: 9am ET 14:53:43 EO draft for coga will occur on April 11 9am ET 14:53:54 eo meeting monday 9 et 14:54:09 2 pm UK 14:54:16 https://www.w3.org/WAI/WCAG2/supplemental/#cognitiveaccessibilityguidance 14:54:22 steves website: 14:54:52 https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-wai-announce/2022JanMar/0005.html 14:55:00 Steve's site. 14:55:03 Lisa said there would be more chances to comment on the website for any iterations 14:55:40 https://www.w3.org/WAI/WCAG2/supplemental/#cognitiveaccessibilityguidance 14:55:51 That's Steve's site. 14:56:08 i am not sure that there will be iterations 14:56:09 NO meeting next week - please note. Action items Jennie on Guardianship if it will fit with the time that Michael has set up so may not happen on the next two weeks. 14:56:28 Michael agreed this will be delayed till after the holiday period 14:56:40 agenda? 14:56:46 No coga meeting 14:57:49 No subgroups unless people are available - nothing scheduled 11- 15th April 14:58:02 q+ 14:58:30 JohnR subgroup meeting asked which group this week - Mental Health after the present meeting. 14:58:32 ack next 14:58:50 New mailing list to work through the silver list issues 14:59:33 rrsagent, make minutes 14:59:33 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/04/07-coga-minutes.html Lisa 14:59:39 Lisa asked if any other ideas - nothing urgent 14:59:51 +1 to John R's kudos on the email list set up! 15:00:01 Bye everyone 15:00:02 Topic: mental health 15:00:09 Talk to everyone one in 2 weeks 15:01:08 please start the zoom call! we have a new meeting! 15:02:06 i reopended it. Thanks 15:02:34 please log in again! https://www.w3.org/2017/08/telecon-info_coga 15:07:50 https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/task-forces/coga/wiki/Subgroups/Mental_Health 15:08:05 form: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIpQLSeGrqJKV7RluoYrKHJN8cBJH3w9sDx7lAlAhcV0BeBTUVybkw/viewform 15:08:30 jennz has joined #coga 15:08:44 instuctions and goodle docs of papers to look at : https://docs.google.com/document/d/1XWmikm5Ein5CQ02knEJ5iGzO1YJMilTMBJ_aLVCTzs0/edit#heading=h.bc4vqyklmnk0 15:08:52 jennz /join 15:09:32 Jan_ has joined #coga 15:09:50 present+ Jan 15:10:08 spead sheet: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1eKNrofGubnpQE6mO-vxmI-1MW5nA2LDj0LxebREPRGA/edit?resourcekey#gid=1686096268 15:11:50 are there need for new pattern: https://www.w3.org/TR/coga-usable/#design_for_everyone 15:13:30 form: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIpQLSeGrqJKV7RluoYrKHJN8cBJH3w9sDx7lAlAhcV0BeBTUVybkw/viewform 15:14:09 also look for info for issue papers 15:14:42 https://w3c.github.io/coga/issue-papers/ 15:15:31 also wayfinding and convesational interfaces 15:17:26 scedule: https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/task-forces/coga/wiki/Subgroups 15:19:55 https://docs.google.com/document/d/1JXa94s2lbzJ0v9FHasxxws3CsOcljHHBdlQ2VOxYqAQ/edit 15:21:34 time lines: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1JXa94s2lbzJ0v9FHasxxws3CsOcljHHBdlQ2VOxYqAQ/edit 15:21:44 how much time in lit review 15:22:17 Rashmi: we also need to dermin what topics to look at? 15:24:10 detiming what topic / scope next meeting. (such as elerning) 15:28:14 Jen: ms have a lit review and testable guidines 15:28:31 Jen: will share what we can 15:31:49 John: When using teams it seems very relivent 15:36:01 rashmi: shows screen with example of bad error message, and controls location issue 15:36:40 were submit button is beofre the capture, so you dont notice it 15:39:42 scope: he Mental Health Subgroup is working on a research module on Web accessibility to effectively address accessibility needs for those with behavioral and mental health disorders. This may result in new user stories, user needs, patterns and other guidance in Making content usable for people with cognitive and learning disabilities. This work was requested after the overlap between cognitive abilities and mental health became clear. Definition: M[CUT] 15:40:45 the litrary review should included: accessibility/ usabiluty 15:41:04 and designes or patterns content that can couses harm 15:42:03 it includeds: spcial media, ecoumerce, safety , elearnign 15:42:10 social media 15:42:59 https://www.w3.org/TR/coga-user-research/ 15:43:32 https://www.w3.org/TR/coga-user-research/#methodology-in-user-research 15:44:01 we should included the things there 15:48:19 we should bring this to the main group 15:48:46 mobile health -applications specificaly 15:49:39 rrsagent, make minutes 15:49:39 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/04/07-coga-minutes.html Lisa 15:50:28 jan: certifications and evaluation 15:50:36 accomidations 15:50:47 jennz has joined #coga 15:50:54 jennz /join 15:51:31 action Jan to look at this topic 15:51:31 Created ACTION-340 - look at this topic [on Jan McSorley - due 2022-04-14]. 15:53:52 Rashmi: Full access needed: Lupton D. The digitally engaged patient: self-monitoring and self-care in the digital health era. Soc Theory Health. 2013;11:256–70. https://link.springer.com/article/10.1057%2Fsth.2013.10 Rashmi :Achtyes ED, Ben-Zeev D, Luo Z, Mayle H, Burke B, Rotondi AJ, et al. Off-hours use of a smartphone intervention to extend support for individuals with schizophrenia spectrum disorders recently discharged from a psychiatric hos[CUT] 15:54:00 https://docs.google.com/document/d/1XWmikm5Ein5CQ02knEJ5iGzO1YJMilTMBJ_aLVCTzs0/edit#heading=h.b3q5kf3eauwo 15:55:58 https://www.w3.org/TR/coga-user-research/#methodology-in-user-research 16:00:46 John: add asking what modality they prefer to use (as this is an accomidation) 16:00:59 (and what they aviode) 16:00:59 stevelee has joined #coga 16:01:11 and how they give feedback 16:01:38 rrsagent, make minutes 16:01:38 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2022/04/07-coga-minutes.html Lisa 16:03:27 jennz /quit 16:49:58 ShawnT has joined #coga 18:05:02 bkardell_ has joined #coga