Meeting minutes
<tzviya> Date: 2021-10-26
<Rain> Planning document
from COGA for joint session: https://
<LisaSeemanKest_> (also see
https://
Introductions
[around the squares]
Overview of COGA work
Rain: Cognitive is the
largest disability category in the world
… last week's panel discussion was recorded; refer to
it
… we want people to be aware of ways to bring better
cognitive a11y into your work
… pleased to be meeting with PWE
… [slides]
… there is a broad range of diagnoses and needs
<Fazio> mental health triggers often have physical consequences also
Rain: needs can be
situational or temporary; working memory, executive function, stress,
...
… COGA = Cognitive and Learning Disabilities Task
Force
… challenges: many complex and varied types of
disabilities
… range of common myths and biases
… these myths can show up in personas from other
Working Groups
… COGA is a task force under both APA WG and AGWG
… and link with the COGA CG
Lisa: we've run into two
problems working with well-meaning WGs
… people would be upset to learn they've been
offensive
… for example, there was a while where one of the
groups that we were participating in and their consensus process
would cite minutes and GitHub threads
… you'd have to open many windows and track many
threads to be able to vote on a resolution
… this caused may to not vote
… and some others assumed they did not care
… people tried to vote but weren't able to
… so actual consensus didn't exist
<Rain> Presentation that
Jennie put together: https://
Lisa: people can be tagged
in ways that they don't realize they have been tagged [in an issue]
… Jennie put together a slide deck and we have a
document
<LisaSeemanKest_> https://
Lisa: we've reached out to several groups to discuss this diversity issue
<julierawe> Lisa and Rain, someone at the 2nd "How to work with COGA" session asked us to put together a one-page summary of Jennie's deck
<Rain> Inclusive groups
working document (sharing again in case this helps Ralph access); https://
Lisa: the work we are doing
on inclusion is part of the initiative to make sure people can
participate and vote
… we acknowledged there needs to be a balance on what
chairs and facilitators are expected to do
… but a lot of the things don't actually take longer
<Jennie> Per julierawe's point - I have the individual's name if helpful
Lisa: and those that do take
longer allow input from a wider consensus group
… to write web specs we need input from a broader
community
<Rain> Thanks Jennie and Julie: Jennie had mentioned this to me and it is on our list to bring to a COGA meeting. It's a perfect idea.
Lisa: e.g. you might think
you're making a spec for improved security but if it results in people
writing down passwords and taping them to their desk that actually
makes things less secure
… with the ubiquity of the web we absolutely have to
have specifications that include all user groups
… if everyone cannot participate then we won't have
that input
Connections between COGA and PWE
Tzviya: thanks for proposing this joint meeting
<tzviya> https://
Tzviya: the CEPC has a lot
of overlap with what is in your document
… I want to think about what could be added
… we're not yet proposing a CEPC update but we do have
an editor's draft
<tzviya> https://
Tzviya: the editor's draft
has some material that's not yet in the adopted CEPC
… feel free to open more issues in GitHub
… be aware that there was a lot of discussion about
every line in CEPC
… also we can consider whether there are things that
could be improved in W3C Process
… e.g. maybe there's a better way to do calls for
consensus
<Zakim> tzviya, you wanted to ask if there are Process changes to make
<LisaSeemanKest_> https://
<Rain> COGA Work and Content
Usable overview: https://
Julie: in the CEPC it looks
like in Expected Behavior there are some bullet points that the COGA
work dives deeply into
… how to write email subject lines, how to do
notifications in GitHub
… the How to work with COGA session dives deeply into
specifics on how to work together
Wendy: there are parallels
here; PWE and IDCG have discussed chairs training a lot
… we've wanted to do specific targeted training on
best practices for running meetings
… it sounds like there is a lot of material in the
COGA docs that would be good for both experienced chairs and new
chairs
Tzviya: we've also talked about training on conflict de-escalation
Rain: interesting that you mention conflict de-escalation
<Jennie> PDF of presentation
is located at https://
Rain: that is especially
relevant in this situation
… one thing that often happens is that some COGA needs
are very different from the needs of those participants who are
using screen readers
<Fazio> w3c participation is very intimidating
Rain: two parties who are
trying to understand each other's needs may end up thinking the other
is being dismissive of their needs
… this can escalate and does become a challenge for us
… I'm very interested in the conflict de-escalation
material
… and how to recognize misunderstandings before they
become a conflict
Lisa: it's going to be
important to define the difference between accommodation and where
things are possible or easy
… there are some things you might not be able to do
but there are ways of saying that
… e.g. "you need to be able to read every email"
… there's a process of finding out whether someone can
or can't do something
… there are good ways to come to a conclusion on what
someone can do
Tzviya: much is about speaking with people respectfully
Jennie: see our wiki page
with links to our presentations
… let us know if you don't have access
… as I was preparing slides, and as I was joining W3C
groups, the cognitive load of learning new systems and how many of
them are used at the same time
<tzviya> +1 to Jennie
Jennie: people who aren't
familiar with international meeting times and how they might shift
during the year
… I was excited to hear mention of the possibility of
adding to Process
… consider how we measure and consider workload of
group participants
<wendyreid> +1 to Jennie
Jennie: my recommendation, based on how we prepared for this TPAC, is that there's a lot of process learning to do
<tzviya> Process Community
Group https://
Jennie: e.g. as Invited
Experts, John and I cannot access some of the material that others in
the Group can access
… there are hoops that people have to jump through
that add to the cognitive load
… Lisa shared some important pieces in last week's
recorded presentations
… systematically looking at where the stories apply
could be part of the process review
<Jennie> * Thanks Tzviya!
Rain: a similar issue to
what Jennie said: in addition to the cognitive load it's important to
acknowledge and include in the support materials that truly being
inclusive is a lot of work
… it can help all of us, and especially the chairs, to
rethink our expectations of ourselves and our groups to allow for
enough time for us to be effective
… for example, there was such a heavy workload in
organizing TPAC meetings that mistakes were made and some people
weren't able to participate
… thanks for offering your email address to help with
posting GitHub issues
… to report feedback, we probably won't be able to use
GitHub issues
… we'll probably create a Google Doc and share it
… that creates additional work for someone to open
GitHub issues
Julie: on chair training, I
joined a meeting where the chair was trying to be inclusive but the
way I was invited to participate made me feel disoriented
… chair training on how to make people feel
comfortable would really help
Tzviya: great comment
… in TPAC 2020 we did some CEPC training using
scenarios
Lisa: W3C is inherently very
conducive to "come as you are"
… if you have something to give, then you are welcome
… a place where many things, such as age, don't matter
… but there are still things that need a bit of help
Next Steps
Tzviya: on next
steps; every group PWE has talked with has asked for training
… I see a lot of material from COGA that we can use
… what are the COGA's next steps that you'd like to
see?
Rain: we'll look at some of
the documents you've shared and create a document in response
… this may take several months
… one thing I'd like to see is to know what things
PWE/IDCG is working on
… e.g. if you're working on a training, how can we
help?
… maybe someone who can be a liaison between PWE/IDCG
and COGA
Lisa: one of the next steps
is to determine how we can work together
… sometimes we dive in deeply and our documents might
be on tooling issues in a lot of detail, with practical things one
can do
… we might spend 3 months making comments that are at
the wrong level
… a pre-step might be to get the granularity right
… where do you want comments? where are they
productive?
… where do you want links for further resources?
… that might help to identify places where we can work
together optimally
… and discuss the right mechanism; liaison? joint
subgroup? to work together
Tzviya: there will be an
updated CEPC at some point
… the CG concluded it's not a good idea to update such
policy documents often
… unless there's a grave issue that needs to be
addressed we felt it should sit for a few years
… on granularity, CEPC is broad-brushed
… we have general concepts, e.g. about harassment, but
missed a few specific things
… we try to back up the language we use based on
materials that exist
… we're not likely to add something very specific that
affects just one group of people
… we're in the process of looking at and revising
W3C's Ombuds procedure
… the Ombuds procedure is out of date
… and we don't have a well-defined discipline process;
we're revamping that as well
… PWE CG has been responsible for the Inclusion Fund
and working with W3M
… Judy Brewer and Léonie Watson are very involved in
both PWE/IDCG and WAI
… so we have pretty active representation from WAI,
though not necessarily COGA
Rain: Lisa, Rachael, and I
have been connecting with Judy regarding tooling and communication
processes
… we'll mention to her that we met in this joint
session and there may be strong opportunities to work together
Tzviya: definitely we'll work with you to establish this relationship
Lisa: the next steps are
what?
… what's on my to-do- list?
Tzviya: looking at the CEPC
to see if there's anything really missing
… and talking about the training
Lisa: you'd like us to review CEPC? but comments might take a few years to appear in a revision?
Tzviya: we don't have a planned schedule but if there's something really glaring we could consider an update sooner
Lisa: are you interested in linking to our resources?
Tzviya: we have a library on Zotero
<tzviya> https://
Tzviya: usually Zotero links
to published documents
… Zotero is our archive of documents
… if you'd like to add something, please let us know
… and the Process CG is also open to anyone, if you
think there are Process things that need to be updated
[adjourned]