19 October 2021


CharlesL, Chris_Weidner, Fazio, Fátima_Baña, jcraig, Jennie__, Joshue_OConnor, Judy_Brewer, julierawe, JustineP, Kazuhiro_Hoya, Kim_patch, KimD__, kirkwood, krisannekinney Leticia_, LisaSeemanKest, Maud, Philippe, Rain, Rashmi_Katakwar, Richard_Ishida, rickj

Meeting minutes

<LisaSeemanKest> https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/task-forces/coga/wiki/Other_resources

scribe Rain

Jennie: today we are talking about how to work with the Cognitive and Learning Disabilities task force
… checking for permission to record the session
… no concerns logged, so we are recording
… presented by Lisa and Jennie
… this presentation is a compilation of work from all COGA TF members, and Julie Rawe who provided final edits to the deck
… goal is to improve web accessibility for people with cognitive and learning disabilities
… slides include information on what types of conditions are covered and the skills that are affected, and the slides will be made available for reference

Jennie: we are also looking more into how language is used to represent these categories.
… Our goals today include how, why, and when to work with the COGA TF. Want to stress that the purpose is as early as possible in the process.

Jennie: please submit questions in the IRC chat, which we will be tracking. You can also add to the zoom chat. Questions will be answered at the end of the slides.

Lisa: why would you want to bother? What we've found is that to make a good robust specification, you need to include everyone.
… Trust and security, and how many times could a failed attempt indicate a bad agent? If you've included coga users in your use cases at the starting point, your investigation will reveal very different problems than if you don't.

<Fazio> The Making Content Usable Guide for People with Cognitive and Learning Disabilities Guide is a great tool to guide your specs

Lisa: Without including these use cases, you may create new accessibility problems (absolute barriers to use)
… A lot of working groups would really benefit from making sure that their use cases include people that represent the coga user needs

Lisa: the COGA TF can also help with cognitive design thinking, getting your users closer to participate with minimum cognitive load (thanks to John Kirkwood for the term).
… We can also help you get user feedback.

<Fazio> cognitive fatigue is the number 1 cause of all accidents worldwide

Lisa: When is a good time? Early! https://www.w3.org/TR/coga-usable/#user_needs

<Jennie__> https://www.w3.org/TR/coga-usable/#user_needs

Lisa: We can also look into user needs for you
… We can set up a liason, and maybe members might want to join your group.

<Fazio> Neurodiversity is much more than just Autism

Lisa: okay, so now we've got you interested, and you tag us. But we don't respond. Or you think we don't respond. But that's not actually what's happening. We may not know that you've tagged us. We are a diverse group and may have our own barriers in managing how you might communicate with us.
… The more steps and streams, the more complicated it becomes. For example, with github notifications, we may not notice it. The subject line may not help us know that we've been tagged.
… So the rest of this presentation is about how to communicate with us if you want to get results. We will also talk a bit about the difference between accessibility and inclusion, and potentially barring people from participating.

Lisa: along our core user needs, we need one place to follow along. One single place. If we have to go to many places, we may miss stuff.
… We need to be able to follow threads, which means we need clear labels, headings, subject lines, and references.

Note: there is a lot more detail on the slides than I'm capturing here, so please reference the slides, as well.

<Fazio> Self-doubt self-consciousness is very common for people with cognitive disabilities

Lisa: when you reach out for consensus, if you provide a survey or other mechanism, help COGA TF users understand what they are trying to vote on by putting in as much information as possible. Otherwise, they may give up.
… This might mean that they become invisible, because you think they aren't interested when in truth they couldn't access it and participate.

Lisa: keeping track of many kinds of interactions. IRC and meeting information, as well as document sharing during meetings, can be challenging. So can github, multiple sources of information.

<Fazio> accessibility tracker is a great tool for keeping tabs on tasks

Lisa: What works: sending agenda beforehand with links that need to be reviewed. Create an information hub with all links and instructions.
… Add tasks to the COGA action requests space -- https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/task-forces/coga/wiki/Actions_Requests

<Fazio> Be very clear when outlining steps

Lisa: github is exceptionally difficult. Finding comments, hard to tell if alerts are relevant, lots of jargon, and threads are hard to follow.

<jcraig> I love that every one of these recommendations is good advice *FOR EVERYONE*… not exclusive to, but EVEN MORE IMPORTANT for those with neurodiverse cognitive or learning styles. Great examples of how designing for disability benefits everyone.

Lisa: What works: Google docs and emails, with summaries and the important information.

<julierawe> +1 to jcraig's comment!!!

Jennie: Also difficult is the concept of acronyms. Please use the full text of the acronyms. Keep in mind that people may forget processes like "q+" in IRC.
… Explaining acronyms in agendas can be helpful. Explanatory links and helping the reader know that there is something they need to remember.

<Fazio> there's 2 dozen IRC. cheat sheets floating around... The commands are confusing

Jennie: tracking tasks is also challenging. Look at the concept of digital wayfinding. Help us know how to get back to the resources we need.

Jennie: good email etiquette. Focus on concepts of findability and memory as you are putting information together to email members of the task force. Clear subject line. Important information at the front. Short summaries.

Jennie: when scheduling a meeting, it can be really difficult to find what the schedule should be in an email thread. So we have been doing our scheduling on spreadsheets. We also send actual calendar invites.

Jennie: When sending email, consider that the reader may be a slower reader, and may not be able to get through as much. Help with the subject line.

Jennie: Send agendas in advance. Enable people to find the information ahead of the meeting, and take extra time if they need it.
… Also, if things move too fast in a meeting, then people may not have time to think about what they want to say.
… Also send the reminder the day before to make sure it is at the top of the inbox.
… Include both time boxes in your agenda so people know what to expect, but also flexibility if more time is needed.

Jennie: and keep an open dialog. Ask people if it's working.

<Fazio> slack (ugh)

Jennie: Following along during meetings can also be challenging. So many inputs. Think through the cognitive demands on the people participating. Our slides may not be the best example because there is a lot of information on these slides. Support multiple modes.

<Fazio> Attention is a huge culprit of cognitive fatigue

Jennie: Support multiple modes, but streamline so that it is not too much.

Jennie: encouraging people to actively participate. Recognize that some people may be uncomfortable if you call them by name, and others may find this helpful in understanding when it is their turn.
… Some members may be less active at times because of their mental health. Be flexible.

<Fazio> cognitive fatigue can trigger: depression, anxiety, psychosis, PTSD, even physical discomfort like nausea and headaches

Jennie: If you are trying to reach a specific person, be flexible if more time is needed.

Jennie: Providing summaries: consider memory. Long email threads are really difficult to follow. Having everything top of mind when it is time for a decision. Do you have all of the information needed? Some people may not vote because they don't feel they have it ready. Provide the summaries before and during.

<Fazio> recap is important +1 Jennie

Jennie: Include the context: why is this being discussed.

Jennie: providing feedback. Some of the challenges could be providing feedback in large group settings. Some individuals may need a way to do it outside of the large group. When consensus process is confusing and hard to participate, people may find it difficult to participate and may not know what the vote is about.
… Giving people time to review before the meeting, and allow asynchronous responses after the meeting. Share with the members: how can someone contribute after this meeting?

Jennie: also been talking a lot about mentorship. This means helping the individual gain confidence in the group? Some of our task force members may need smaller group conversations. May need an opportunity to share what works best for them.

Lisa on cognitive fatigue: long meetings are hard as well. Keep meetings short if you can, or allow for breaks. Also help people know when there is a topic change.
… In a transition, remind participants here is the new topic, and this is what we are discussing. This also helps if people lose attention.

Jennie on the concept of triggers: there are many types of triggers. Motion, memory, symptom. It is important to alert attendees that something may occur during the meeting. Agendas are a good place to do this, as well as making sure to mention it during the meeting.
… If the meeting is timeboxed, and you stick to the timebox, this enables the member to join at the appropriate time without entering the conversation when the topic they need to avoid is being discussed.

Jennie on meeting etiquette: talk about it at the beginning of the first meeting, and include in the meeting invitations. For example, code of conduct is being shared in meetings during TPAC.
… When new members join, if there are changes to the meeting etiquette, or if a person may forget, help remind members and refresh.

Jennie: now we are opening up for questions. You can also reach out to the COGA co-faciliators at any time. lisa.seeman@zoho.com and rainb@google.com

Recording has been stopped

<stevelee> +1

<kirkwood> +1

<Fazio> +1

<krisannekinney> +1

<julierawe> +1

<LisaSeemanKest> +1


<Fazio> +1

<LisaSeemanKest> +1

<stevelee> +1

<CharlesL> +1 personalization TF

<Maud> Accessibility for children

<Fazio> APA, Silver

<Kim_patch> +1 Mobile task force

<LisaSeemanKest> important groups

<jcraig> contributor to ARIA and other accessibility groups

<krisannekinney> EOWG and Accessibility for children

<cweidner> +1

<Fazio> personalization = COGA holy grail

<stevelee> EOWG = education and Outreach Working group

Are there specific ways you would like to work with the COGA TF?

<Fazio> APA does a great job working with COGA

<Fazio> in my opinion

<Maud> I thought about triggers being very interesting and relevant for children

<stevelee> APA = Accessible Platform Architectures

<Fazio> I'd love to be more involved with children

<Maud> https://www.w3.org/community/accessibility4children/

<Kim_patch> We need to educate ourselves about things COGA knows – I've heard a lot of wisdom here today and we need more of it

Fazio: accessibility for children is incredibly important. Development disabilities, sometimes receptive abilities are more heighted than their expressive abilities. Misconception that if someone isn't expressing, that they aren't engaged or understanding.
… When we are young, our neuroplasticity is more heightened and susceptible to influence. Prime time to most empower individuals with cognitive disabilities to be self sufficient

<Maud> Thank you so much ! You are welcome in our group for children! with your expertise.

There is also a TPAC breakout session being hosted on Thursday October 21

Jennie: there is another session for Content Usable on Thursday, October 21
… This is a panel discussion in which we will examine user needs and how they can be built into specifications.

TPAC link to accessibility for children breakout: https://web-eur.cvent.com/hub/events/2b77fe3d-2536-467d-b71b-969b2e6419b5/sessions/84f9fdaa-ff08-4f08-9fa8-76ff2a56e105?goBackHref=%2Fevents%2F2b77fe3d-2536-467d-b71b-969b2e6419b5%2Fschedule&goBackName=My+Schedule&goBackTab=

<julierawe> Jennie: Steve is also in the queue

TPAC link to Cognitive Accessibility: User needs to specifications Panel: https://web-eur.cvent.com/hub/events/2b77fe3d-2536-467d-b71b-969b2e6419b5/sessions/d0425707-408b-4039-9a64-5ab83448f616?goBackHref=%2Fevents%2F2b77fe3d-2536-467d-b71b-969b2e6419b5%2Fschedule&goBackName=My+Schedule&goBackTab=

<Fazio> +1 to patience

<Fazio> especially for conditions like cerebral palsy

<Fazio> Challenge neurodiversitr to include more than Autism

jcraig: highlighting patience. A tendency to interrupt people, and seeing how that can interfere especially in conversations with neurodiverse groups. Also appreciate focusing on patience to enable people contribute after the meeting.

<Fazio> yes that was me

<Fazio> context was developmental disabilities

jcraig: Question to ask: in a working group decision making context, there are a number of times when we have trouble moving forward if there is an infinite amount of time to respond. What advice do you have for someone who is trying to close off specific issues when engaging COGA participants?

Lisa in response to jcraig's question: the process I usually use is to give the options to vote, but include one option of "do you need more time." Then I will ask if 48 hours or 2 days will be enough time. Then clearly follow up in email with the options, additional time, and the expected deadline. Ensure that all the links are right there to help with context.
… Sometimes we might ask for help with our own behavior management. For example, one individual may have a tendency to interrupt without realizing it, and may ask for a private channel to be helped to notice this by W3C staff or co-facilitators.
… Sometimes the result though is that this accomodation can be hard to provide. As a result, the member may be told off for poor behavior.
… Recognize that these are requests for accomodation.

<jcraig> thank you Lisa... seems like a standard CFC time period is sufficient.

<jcraig> Can you clarify "the approach to COGA accommodation is sometimes to blame"?

<jcraig> Ah. I understand... People are "told off" for asking for COGA accommodations like "pls use clear subject lines" or "use threads"

David: help people understand why a deadline is a specific date. Let the know if more time is possible, or if it isn't.

Steve: Triggers, very powerful.

Steve: do we have a resource?

Lisa: difficult because research is a moving target. We are working on it.

David: there are some triggers listed in the understanding document now
… and there is a lot of information about mental fatique

David: reminder that it can be dangerous for people.

<Fazio> Get to know your team +1 Rain

<Fazio> I will have to dig it up in my hard drive

<CharlesL> wondering if these triggers can be included in the accessibilityHazards metadata which is work that will be done in an accessibility Task Force under the Schema.org W3C Community Group.

Rain added that some of these triggers are sensory, for example for people with autism. For example, white noise can impact some people and cause shut down.

Jennie followed up that there is some research on the white noise challenge.

<Fazio> email me offline if you want dfazio@helixopp.com

<stevelee> same for all accessibility really - know the people!!!

r12a: Still trying to understand the kind of triggers we are talking about. Sounds like we need to know the people because we might not have a full generic list.

Jennie: there is a deque blog post from Glenda Sims that outlines some triggers and their process.

<Fazio> redundant entry sc understanding doc

Minutes manually created (not a transcript), formatted by scribe.perl version 136 (Thu May 27 13:50:24 2021 UTC).


Succeeded: s/exclusive too/exclusive to/

No scribenick or scribe found. Guessed: Rain

Maybe present: David, Jennie, Lisa, Note, r12a, Steve