<Rain> chair?
<Rain> Helpful scribing link that Jennie sent me: https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/wiki/Scribing_Commands_and_Related_Info
<Rachael> I think it taped right this time
<scribe> scribe: krisannekinney
<Rain> zakim: take up item 2
zakim: agenda?
<Rain> zakim: take up item #2
Link that is in the chat for a user needs survey - linked from the agenda. survey that needs a review. Functional Needs Subgroup.
Rain: functional user needs defined in silver. good attention to what the needs might be. from the cognitive and mental health side we want to make sure the user needs are defined. deadline is June 31th
June 30th
scribe: Lisa responded requesting more time , we could make a formal request as a group for more time to take a careful look from the COGA perspective.
<Jennie> *Apologies but I cannot take on extra tasks for about 2 weeks - unclear of how the next few weeks might unfold
John Kirkwood: suggestion, i wouldn't mind putting together a small group to go through it quickly on a working session. powerful time to get involved.
Rain: excellent approach - any other questions?
<johnkirkwood> +1
Rain: so we'll see if we can put together the small working group. who would like to be involved?
<johnkirkwood> agreed on 2 hour or less
<johnkirkwood> great
<Fazio> I'll review it when i can find time
<Albert> I can as well.
Rain: John Kirkwood, Rain, Rain will also put the call out to the group in case there are others that aren't on the call that can help.
<Rachael> I suggest setting up the meeting and then send the invitation out to the coga mailing list
Chris: has a colleague he would like to share this with, but she is out this week. will consult with her when she is back if that timeframe works.
<JustineP> will volunteer if my schedule permits
Rain: will send the invite to everyone when they have a date and time. Propose Monday the 28th in the morning 8:30 PST.
<Albert> Monday 9am is mental health sub group meeting
June 28th 8am PST 11amEST
Rain: to send out the one hour invite for this group to meet following the meeting.
<Rain> https://github.com/w3c/wcag/issues/1912
Rain: link in IRC - understanding
from Lisa we got through a lot last week but there are a couple
left. Starting with Accessible Authentication
... SC 3.3.7 - Accessible Authentication
... details in Github link put in IRC.
JohnR: few different password
show options we've seen - can show briefly, or show as you type
it. Would think we would want a feature that says Show
password. people can see the password as they're typing
it.
... its going to have to be in the understanding documents -
saying in there that there should be a feature for the user to
see their password as they type them.
<Rain> Draft response: As COGA, we argue that there should be a button that says “show password” that enables the user to see their password as they type it. At the same time, this is something that should be in the understanding document. This is technically not a cognitive function test, which is what the SC is about.
Rain: concern about conforming to security guidelines, that this could make it difficult. Good point John to add it to the understanding doc.
<Fazio> id sy recommend instead of argue
John K: qualifier of "as you type it" is that necessary? difficult from a technical perspective often. could you turn it on to review it?
John Rochford: if you can't see it as you type it you're going to make mistakes. Feature should be show password/hide password toggle.
scribe: might want to change type to enter.
<Rain> Updated draft: As COGA, we recommend that there should be a feature that is a toggle that says “show password/hide password” that enables the user to see their password as they enter it. At the same time, this is something that should be in the understanding document. This is technically not a cognitive function test, which is what the SC is about.
<Jennie> +1
<JustineP> +1
+1
<johnkirkwood> +1
<JohnRochford> +1
<cweidner> +1
Rain: anyone that
disagrees?
... we will post this response into Github
<Rain> Taking up defining common objects: https://github.com/w3c/wcag/issues/1902
<Jennie> *This was discussed last week at least a bit I believe
Rain: next on the list is
Defining Common Objects - description in github link
... use of the word common objects is somewhat
challenging
... anyone have a comment?
<Rain> Copy of the text in question: If the test is based on something the website has set such as remembering or transcribing a word, or recognising a picture the website provided, that would be a cognitive functional test. Recognising common objects, or a picture the user has provided, would not be a cognitive functional test.
JohnR: common means shared by two or more people. Change the word common to familiar. Familiar means the person recognizes it.
Jennie: discussed some last week, because the word common we discussed because of international preferences.
Rain: proposal to remove Common objects from the statement and it went out to the email thread but not a lot of response to the thread.
<Rain> Statement without the words "common objects": If the test is based on something the website has set such as remembering or transcribing a word, or recognising a picture the website provided, that would be a cognitive functional test. Recognising a picture the user has provided, would not be a cognitive functional test.
<johnkirkwood> +1
Jennie: i'm unclear, if a person has challenges with memory, if they are asked to recognize a picture they provide isn't that still a cognitive function test?
<Fazio> cognition by defintion is the ability to learn and remember
<Rachael> Would they be able to provide a photo they would recognize?
JohnRochford: good point, people could forget what they uploaded.
Jennie: the word recognize has a cognitive feature to the task.
<JustineP> Privacy considerations associated with asking people to upload their own photos?
Jennie: dementia -the ability to recognize images and people so if we need to recognize it is a cognitive test. copy and paste or matching something is less of a cognitive test. levels of complexity
John Rochford: if someone uploads their own picture it still is a cognitive function test.
David: selecting the images that
are in the same series of pictures like "bridges" so its a
cognitive test. Overpass vs. actual bridge. cultural
differences could cause differences too.
... by removing that language addresses that but its a rabbit
hole too.
Rachael: defer to the group, but the question: if I choose a photo and control the photo that i can remember - say of my desk that I'm sitting at would that negate this issue?
JohnR: someone could upload and forget that quickly.
<Rain> Draft response: The word “recognize” implies a cognitive test. An individual with memory challenges may not be able to remember what they uploaded even a week prior, or may not recognize it. We would like to remove the last sentence from this statement.
<Rain> Statement becomes: If the test is based on something the website has set such as remembering or transcribing a word, or recognising a picture the website provided, that would be a cognitive functional test.
John Rochford: we would like to remove the sentence and quote the sentence itself.
Jennie: could we remove "the website provided"
<Rain> Updated draft: The word “recognize” implies a cognitive test. An individual with memory challenges may not be able to remember what they uploaded even a week prior, or may not recognize it. We would like to remove the sentence “Recognising a picture the user has provided, would not be a cognitive functional test,” as well as the three words, “the website provided” from this statement.
<Rachael> We may want to state to update the understanding document accordingly
<Jennie> +1 to updating the understanding document
+1 to updating the understanding document
John Rochford: the result is and then quote it so people see exactly what we're talking about.
<Jennie> * No apologies Rain - we are patient
<JohnRochford> Jennie is patient, not John K.
<johnkirkwood> [jealous of mulititasking abnility]
<Rain> Updated draft of response:
<Rain> The word “recognize” implies a cognitive test. An individual with memory challenges may not be able to remember what they uploaded even a week prior, or may not recognize it. We would like propose updating the understanding document accordingly, which means removing the three words in the first sentence, “the website provided,” from this statement. the sentence “Recognising common objects, or a picture the user has provided, would not be a [CUT]
<Rain> The word “recognize” implies a cognitive test. An individual with memory challenges may not be able to remember what they uploaded even a week prior, or may not recognize it. We would like propose updating the understanding document accordingly, which means removing
<Rain> the three words in the first sentence, “the website provided,” from this statement.
<Rain> the sentence “Recognising common objects, or a picture the user has provided, would not be a cognitive functional test.”
<Rain> Result: If the test is based on something the website has set such as remembering or transcribing a word, or recognising a picture, that would be a cognitive functional test.
<Fazio> memory can fade in 30 seconds not a week
<Fazio> +1
<JustineP> +1 John R
<Jennie> +1 to John R
<johnkirkwood> remember is key too
<johnkirkwood> +1
John Rochford : remove "even a week prior"
scribe: instead of saying functional test, its a cognitive function test.
Rain: made updates as suggested.
<Rain> Text proposed for response:
<Rain> The word “recognize” implies a cognitive test. An individual with memory challenges may not be able to remember or recognize what they uploaded. We would like propose updating the understanding document accordingly, which means removing
<Rain> 1. the three words in the first sentence, “the website provided,” from this statement.
<Rain> 2. the sentence “Recognising common objects, or a picture the user has provided, would not be a cognitive functional test.”
<Rain> Result: If the test is based on something the website has set such as remembering or transcribing a word, or recognising a picture, that would be a cognitive function test.
<JohnRochford> +1
<Jennie> +1
+1
<johnkirkwood> +1
Rain: any remaining concerns about our proposed resonse?
<JustineP> +1
<Albert> +1
Rain: we can continue this
process next week.
... we submitted those two responses.
Rain: actions review as our last item.
Justine: initiated lit review,
may not be finished by the end of July, but she will update the
group. Action to contact Michael Cooper to initiate the
coversation of mental health from the functional needs
perspective.
... wrapping up the process for supporting anonymous
participation for people who want to provide for W3C. would
like to be able to support them.
Rain: Rachel you mentioned you were going to try to bring up the anonymous participation with leadership?
Justine: issues with name listed in the documents, minutes and in the the eventual publication.
Rain: Rachael was going to keep
working on it.
... did you get to the XR use cases? Joshua is going to join a
future meeting.
Jennie: I haven't gotten to that yet.
<Rain> Inclusive Work Groups document: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1RbjN7fLaucSzVfTqQdoCHoX3GFEoyHz2iiz3ap9Yd6k/edit
Rain: inclusive work groups
document Lisa has been working on - has everyone been going
through this?
... if you haven't put your initials with the things you agree
with, please do so soon.
... any questions?
... image subgroup which I will speak to.
... still waiting for confirmation on the slide deck - we got a
few copy changes that I will make . Hope to have a better
update next week.
... also related to Silver as well, Jan and Jennie recommended
that we ask our group for good examples that you have seen
where help supports cognitive needs. Will send an email asking
for examples you've found for successful help for Silver.
... Silver sub-group two action items : help and support ,
meeting again in 3 minutes, to work through the draft
document.
... clear words: looking for a time for us to meet.
... will follow up with John Rochford to schedule the
meeting.
... other items we will defer. Any other questions?
... thanks for getting through these few items, we'll talk more
next week.
This is scribe.perl Revision VERSION of 2020-12-31 Check for newer version at http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/ Guessing input format: Irssi_ISO8601_Log_Text_Format (score 1.00) Default Present: JustineP, krisannekinney, Fazio, Rachael, cweidner, Rain, Jennie, johnkirkwood, Roy, Albert Present: JustineP, krisannekinney, Fazio, Rachael, cweidner, Rain, Jennie, johnkirkwood, Roy, Albert Regrets: EA Found Scribe: krisannekinney Inferring ScribeNick: krisannekinney Found Date: 24 Jun 2021 People with action items: WARNING: IRC log location not specified! (You can ignore this warning if you do not want the generated minutes to contain a link to the original IRC log.)[End of scribe.perl diagnostic output]