W3C

– DRAFT –
Internationalization Working Group Teleconference

10 June 2021

Attendees

Present
Addison, Atsushi, Fuqiao, Richard
Regrets
JcK
Chair
Addison Phillips
Scribe
fsasaki, xfq

Meeting minutes

<addison> trackbot, prepare teleconference

Agenda

Action Items

<addison> https://www.w3.org/International/track/actions/open

action-925?

<trackbot> action-925: Addison Phillips to Update string-meta to include json-ld changes, etc. -- due 2020-07-09 -- OPEN

addison: started on that

action-946?

<trackbot> action-946: Addison Phillips to Create definition of 'ltr'/'rtl'/'auto' that can be referenced by other specifications in string-meta -- due 2020-09-03 -- OPEN

done by addison :)

close action-946

<trackbot> Closed action-946.

action-1017?

<trackbot> action-1017: Addison Phillips to Send wpwg list of specs that implement lang/dir -- due 2021-04-22 -- OPEN

addison: pending

action-1031?

<trackbot> action-1031: Addison Phillips to Document the state of payment-request -- due 2021-06-03 -- OPEN

addison: sent note to chairs, will keep action open until the github issue is update

action-1032?

<trackbot> action-1032: Richard Ishida to Propose text for html 4814 (datalist find/string search) -- due 2021-06-03 -- OPEN

richard: pending

action-1033?

<trackbot> action-1033: Addison Phillips to Create skeleton of "best practices for manifests" -- due 2021-06-10 -- OPEN

addison: done

close action-1033

<trackbot> Closed action-1033.

Info Share

Radar

<addison> https://github.com/w3c/i18n-request/projects/1

addison: css counter styles, richard responed to fantasai
… is "in review", is deeper review needed?

richard: did not see anything that is a concern for us
… small editorial thing has been fixed
… review is done, nothing to report
… we can move this to "done"

addison: any volunteer to read counter styles? just move it to done

xfq: I will have a look

richard: hope that this will be published as rec

xfq: chris and I go through all CSS specs, see what should be re-published
… need to look at the tests for counter styles

addison: so some period after CR publication will be available

xfq: last CR was 4 years ago

richard: the review I did is an update of the current spec
… not 4 years old, brand new again

addison: will go through normal CR & PR process

atsushi: resource timing and user timing, is completed, part of the agenda
… there is no issue for resource timing

addison: so I move the doc to completed?

atsushi: yes

addison: will do
… performance timeline is incoming

atsushi: will take this

xfq: closely related to timing specs

Review comments for timing specs

<atsushi> https://github.com/w3c/i18n-activity/issues/1392

atsushi: from level 2 to level 3, one feature was added
… convert to timestamp function
… in their ticket, "storing match" is defined as match

richard: what does a timestamp look like?

atsushi: something from page load, a numeric value

xfq: millisecond value

addison: since epoc, or millisecond lapsed?

atsushi: from epoch, I think
… but could be both, per implementation

atsushi: used to measure the marks between two points
… output from the two marks is important

richard: is the spec saying that they produce human readable output?

atsushi: user can define mark or @@@

<atsushi> https://w3c.github.io/user-timing/#example-1

atsushi: see performance mark with text label
… each label can be defined by a developer

addison: developer can name them, but these are just IDs, the rest is just numbers (time of milliseconds)

atsushi: yes

atsushi describing various process options

addison: using "is" is a good use of this, because otherwise they do not define matches

<Bert> +1

addison: any objections about this comment? Other observations?

+1

<xfq> +1

addison: atsushi, please file the comment
… I will move the doc to "awaiting comment resolution"

CSS Counter Styles

<r12a> https://www.w3.org/TR/predefined-counter-styles/

<addison> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/member-i18n-core/2021Jun/0006.html

richard: there is a new version on TR
… xfq published the doc
… I published more docs yesterday
… counter styles changes are:

<r12a> https://www.w3.org/TR/predefined-counter-styles/

<r12a> https://www.w3.org/TR/predefined-counter-styles/#affixes

richard: section 1.1: we got examples about suffixes and prefixes
… seemed to me that it would start to make the doc very large
… so I say: we define the base algorithm
… and we say: we used the common default, and a note saying "these are common ways to do the affixes"
… so we have notes instead of dublicating the styles
… a section shows how to have a different separator, using the "extends" keyword
… andrew cunningham is still clarifying things, with a delay due to the situation in Myanmar

<addison> https://www.w3.org/TR/predefined-counter-styles/#myanmar-styles

<r12a> Alternative prefix/suffix styles

<r12a> https://www.w3.org/TR/predefined-counter-styles/#myanmar-styles

richard: I changed Myanmar, it used to have default space suffix
… parenthesis is more common, it seems

richard: moved japanese and korean stuff into "japanese and korean" section
… added bunch of other stuff

<r12a> https://www.w3.org/TR/2021/NOTE-predefined-counter-styles-20210606/#app-c

richard: we are in good position with the doc, I think
… also went through tests in the test suite and the gap analysis

addison: very cool!
… should this be a "statement" in the new process?

richard: no
… we update this regularly, once we get more information

<xfq> https://www.w3.org/Consortium/Process/Drafts/#registries

richard: you can use whatever keyword you want
… so there is no "normative" recommendation, just stuff you may want to use
… also no intend to cover all things you need, or limit things

addison: ok

String-Meta

<addison> https://github.com/w3c/string-meta/pull/55

addison: pull request has bidi keywords in it
… I added small subsection
… xfq commented that basically ltr and rtl refers to CSS, auto refers to definition in HTML
… question whether I should bring definitions here or put them by reference
… started to indicate difference between ltr and cases to bring in auto
… open the floor to comments

richard: there might places where you need to use metadata, which resolves through other rules to left-to-right
… if the direction of content is not known, you should use auto rules

addison: if there is no direction, you use auto

richard: you use auto

addison: that is UBA

richard: auto says: use the UBA
… if you do not have auto, things are up to the application

<addison> <p dir=ltr>dldld <span dir=auto>...</span>.... </p>

richard: discussing section 2.4 ... that is "auto"

addison: my thinking is two-fold:
… if you send s.t., you should indicate the direction
… if you do not know the direction, "auto" is not helpful

richard: agree

addison: if you do not know the direction, do not send it
… if you define e.g. HTML, you need all three values

r12a: some of the formats for which we wrote this document
… we do recommend auto

addison: we recommend the auto heuristics, but not necessarily the auto keyword
… two things
… first is define the direction, the dir attribute
… under what situations you will allow those values and consume

r12a: is there a problem if somebody uses the auto label?

addison: i think i have enough information to do some more edits
… do we want to draw specific distinctions or recommendations for when to use direction and when to use dir

r12a: I read that and I had the same question

addison: i could be less prescriptive and just leave that aside
… we would be super sad to see both

r12a: you could have lang and language

addison: it's the same problem

r12a: language is usually used for metadata

epub: https://w3c.github.io/epub-specs/epub33/core/#sec-shared-attrs

Publication Manifest: https://www.w3.org/TR/pub-manifest/#manifest-lang-dir-global

<addison> "property" not "data value"

addison: i'll take another whack at it

bert: i like it

AOB?

addison: developing localizable manifests
… i used respec to create the draft
… i used i18n-draft as the home
… r12a do you suggest we should just make a new repo?

r12a: it may end up being a very short note
… if it's going to be an article it should be in an article format

xfq: If we are writing for spec developers, a note might be better

r12a: if we decide to make it into an article we don't want it to be in a repo

addison: i'll move it to temp and we'll discuss whether it should be a note

r12a: it depends on whether we're going to have mustards in it

addison: it's a best practice document

r12a: mustards are not normative, they are recommendations
… a way of getting the message across
… it wasn't to say these are the normative bits
… even in charmod fundamental

addison: if you have comments on the text
… that would be super useful
… i'll email the list

<atsushi> I had the same issue for today's another meeting...

Minutes manually created (not a transcript), formatted by scribe.perl version 136 (Thu May 27 13:50:24 2021 UTC).

Diagnostics

Succeeded: s/Mynamar/Myanmar/

Succeeded: s/questions/question

Succeeded: s/respect/respec/

Succeeded: s/will join immediaterly after i18n finished//

Maybe present: bert, epub, r12a, xfq