13:31:44 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #i18n
13:31:44 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2021/06/10-i18n-irc
13:31:50 <addison> trackbot, prepare teleconference
13:31:53 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
13:31:56 <trackbot> Meeting: Internationalization Working Group Teleconference
13:31:56 <trackbot> Date: 10 June 2021
13:32:05 <addison> Chair: Addison Phillips
13:32:24 <agendabot> Sorry, I did not find an agenda.
13:34:12 <addison> Agenda: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/member-i18n-core/2021Jun/0004.html
13:34:22 <agendabot> addison, sorry, could not get https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/member-i18n-core/2021Jun/0004.html (code 500).
13:34:51 <addison> agenda+ Agenda
13:34:55 <addison> agenda+ Action Items
13:34:59 <addison> agenda+ Info Share
13:35:02 <addison> agenda+ Radar
13:35:19 <addison> agenda+ CSS Counter Styles
13:35:54 <addison> agenda+ Developing Localizable Manifests (draft)
13:35:57 <addison> agenda+ String-Meta
13:36:12 <addison> agenda+ Review comments for timing specs
13:36:16 <addison> agenda+ AOB?
13:36:23 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/06/10-i18n-minutes.html addison
13:36:51 <addison> regrets+ JcK
13:37:12 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/06/10-i18n-minutes.html addison
13:52:23 <xfq> xfq has joined #i18n
13:56:36 <addison> present+ Addison
13:56:49 <addison> present+ Fuqiao
13:57:26 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/06/10-i18n-minutes.html addison
14:00:34 <fsasaki> fsasaki has joined #i18n
14:01:44 <addison> present+ Richard, Atsushi
14:02:49 <fsasaki> scribe: fsasaki
14:03:23 <addison> zakim, take up agendum 1
14:03:23 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- Agenda -- taken up [from addison]
14:03:28 <addison> agenda?
14:03:56 <addison> zakim, take up agendum 2
14:03:56 <Zakim> agendum 2 -- Action Items -- taken up [from addison]
14:04:06 <addison> https://www.w3.org/International/track/actions/open
14:04:28 <fsasaki> action-925?
14:04:29 <trackbot> action-925 -- Addison Phillips to Update string-meta to include json-ld changes, etc. -- due 2020-07-09 -- OPEN
14:04:29 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/International/track/actions/925
14:04:34 <fsasaki> addison: started on that
14:04:40 <fsasaki> action-946?
14:04:40 <trackbot> action-946 -- Addison Phillips to Create definition of 'ltr'/'rtl'/'auto' that can be referenced by other specifications in string-meta -- due 2020-09-03 -- OPEN
14:04:40 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/International/track/actions/946
14:04:51 <fsasaki> done by addison :)
14:04:55 <fsasaki> close action-946
14:04:55 <trackbot> Closed action-946.
14:05:14 <fsasaki> action-1017?
14:05:14 <trackbot> action-1017 -- Addison Phillips to Send wpwg list of specs that implement lang/dir -- due 2021-04-22 -- OPEN
14:05:14 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/International/track/actions/1017
14:05:17 <fsasaki> addison: pending
14:05:29 <fsasaki> action-1031?
14:05:29 <trackbot> action-1031 -- Addison Phillips to Document the state of payment-request -- due 2021-06-03 -- OPEN
14:05:29 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/International/track/actions/1031
14:05:51 <fsasaki> addison: sent note to chairs, will keep action open until the github issue is update
14:05:54 <fsasaki> action-1032?
14:05:54 <trackbot> action-1032 -- Richard Ishida to Propose text for html 4814 (datalist find/string search) -- due 2021-06-03 -- OPEN
14:05:54 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/International/track/actions/1032
14:06:01 <fsasaki> richard: pending
14:06:14 <fsasaki> action-1033?
14:06:14 <trackbot> action-1033 -- Addison Phillips to Create skeleton of "best practices for manifests" -- due 2021-06-10 -- OPEN
14:06:14 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/International/track/actions/1033
14:06:22 <fsasaki> addison: done
14:06:24 <fsasaki> close action-1033
14:06:24 <trackbot> Closed action-1033.
14:06:39 <addison> zakim, take up agendum 3
14:06:39 <Zakim> agendum 3 -- Info Share -- taken up [from addison]
14:07:18 <addison> zakim, take up agendum 4
14:07:18 <Zakim> agendum 4 -- Radar -- taken up [from addison]
14:07:27 <addison> https://github.com/w3c/i18n-request/projects/1
14:07:51 <fsasaki> addison: css counter styles, richard responed to fantasai
14:08:05 <fsasaki> ... is "in review", is deeper review needed?
14:08:29 <fsasaki> richard: did not see anything that is a concern for us
14:08:38 <fsasaki> ... small editorial thing has been fixed
14:08:46 <fsasaki> ... review is done, nothing to report
14:08:53 <fsasaki> ... we can move this to "done"
14:09:09 <fsasaki> addison: any volunteer to read counter styles? just move it to done
14:09:14 <fsasaki> xfq: I will have a look
14:10:13 <fsasaki> richard: hope that this will be published as rec
14:10:38 <fsasaki> xfq: chris and I go through all CSS specs, see what should be re-published
14:11:03 <fsasaki> ... need to look at the tests for counter styles
14:11:22 <fsasaki> addison: so some period after CR publication will be available
14:11:28 <fsasaki> xfq: last CR was 4 years ago
14:11:47 <fsasaki> richard: the review I did is an update of the current spec
14:11:56 <fsasaki> ... not 4 years old, brand new again
14:12:19 <fsasaki> addison: will go through normal CR & PR process
14:12:38 <r12a> agenda?
14:13:18 <fsasaki> atsushi: resource timing and user timing, is completed, part of the agenda
14:13:57 <fsasaki> ... there is no issue for resource timing
14:14:08 <fsasaki> addison: so I move the doc to completed?
14:14:15 <fsasaki> atsushi: yes
14:14:21 <fsasaki> addison: will do
14:14:42 <fsasaki> ... performance timeline is incoming
14:14:49 <fsasaki> atsushi: will take this
14:14:59 <fsasaki> xfq: closely related to timing specs
14:15:19 <addison> agenda?
14:15:34 <addison> zakim, take up agendum 8
14:15:34 <Zakim> agendum 8 -- Review comments for timing specs -- taken up [from addison]
14:15:58 <atsushi> https://github.com/w3c/i18n-activity/issues/1392
14:16:16 <fsasaki> atsushi: from level 2 to level 3, one feature was added
14:16:32 <fsasaki> ... convert to timestamp function
14:16:43 <fsasaki> ... in their ticket, "storing match" is defined as match
14:17:07 <fsasaki> richard: what does a timestamp look like?
14:17:32 <fsasaki> atsushi: something from page load, a numeric value
14:17:35 <fsasaki> xfq: millisecond value
14:17:56 <fsasaki> addison: since epoc, or millisecond lapsed?
14:18:04 <fsasaki> atsushi: from epoch, I think
14:18:14 <fsasaki> ... but could be both, per implementation
14:18:52 <fsasaki> atsushi: used to measure the marks between two points
14:18:58 <fsasaki> ... output from the two marks is important
14:19:19 <fsasaki> richard: is the spec saying that they produce human readable output?
14:19:29 <fsasaki> atsushi: user can define mark or @@@
14:19:32 <atsushi> https://w3c.github.io/user-timing/#example-1
14:19:56 <fsasaki> atsushi: see performance mark with text label
14:20:03 <fsasaki> ... each label can be defined by a developer
14:20:29 <fsasaki> addison: developer can name them, but these are just IDs, the rest is just numbers (time of milliseconds)
14:20:34 <fsasaki> atsushi: yes
14:22:34 <fsasaki> atsushi describing various process options
14:22:53 <fsasaki> addison: using "is" is a good use of this, because otherwise they do not define matches
14:23:14 <Bert> +1
14:23:16 <fsasaki> addison: any objections about this comment? Other observations?
14:23:22 <fsasaki> +1
14:23:27 <xfq> +1
14:23:43 <fsasaki> addison: atsushi, please file the comment
14:23:54 <fsasaki> ... I will move the doc to "awaiting comment resolution"
14:24:03 <addison> zakim, take up agendum 5
14:24:03 <Zakim> agendum 5 -- CSS Counter Styles -- taken up [from addison]
14:24:53 <r12a> https://www.w3.org/TR/predefined-counter-styles/
14:25:08 <addison> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/member-i18n-core/2021Jun/0006.html
14:25:15 <fsasaki> richard: there is a new version on TR
14:25:30 <fsasaki> ... xfq published the doc
14:25:41 <fsasaki> ... I published more docs yesterday
14:25:50 <fsasaki> ... counter styles changes are:
14:25:59 <r12a> https://www.w3.org/TR/predefined-counter-styles/
14:26:11 <r12a> https://www.w3.org/TR/predefined-counter-styles/#affixes
14:26:42 <fsasaki> ... section 1.1: we got examples about suffixes and prefixes
14:27:04 <fsasaki> ... seemed to me that it would start to make the doc very large
14:27:25 <fsasaki> ... so I say: we define the base algorithm
14:27:49 <fsasaki> ... and we say: we used the common default, and a note saying "these are common ways to do the affixes"
14:28:02 <fsasaki> .. so we have notes instead of dublicating the styles
14:28:54 <fsasaki> ... a section shows how to have a different separator, using the "extends" keyword
14:29:24 <fsasaki> ... andrew cunningham is still clarifying things, with a delay due to the situation in Mynamar
14:29:34 <addison> https://www.w3.org/TR/predefined-counter-styles/#myanmar-styles
14:29:35 <r12a> Alternative prefix/suffix styles
14:29:46 <r12a> https://www.w3.org/TR/predefined-counter-styles/#myanmar-styles
14:29:47 <fsasaki> s/Mynamar/Myanmar/
14:30:01 <fsasaki> richard: I changed Myanmar, it used to have default space suffix
14:30:15 <fsasaki> ... parenthesis is more common, it seems
14:33:01 <fsasaki> richard: moved japanese and korean stuff into "japanese and korean" section
14:33:09 <fsasaki> ... added bunch of other stuff
14:33:26 <r12a> https://www.w3.org/TR/2021/NOTE-predefined-counter-styles-20210606/#app-c
14:34:27 <fsasaki> richard: we are in good position with the doc, I think
14:34:39 <fsasaki> ... also went through tests in the test suite and the gap analysis
14:35:09 <fsasaki> addison: very cool!
14:35:19 <fsasaki> ... should this be a "statement" in the new process?
14:35:34 <fsasaki> richard: no
14:35:42 <fsasaki> ... we update this regularly, once we get more information
14:36:31 <xfq> https://www.w3.org/Consortium/Process/Drafts/#registries
14:36:46 <fsasaki> richard: you can use whatever keyword you want
14:37:04 <fsasaki> ... so there is no "normative" recommendation, just stuff you may want to use
14:37:17 <fsasaki> ... also no intend to cover all things you need, or limit things
14:37:21 <fsasaki> addison: ok
14:37:26 <addison> agenda?
14:37:56 <addison> zakim, take up agendum 7
14:37:56 <Zakim> agendum 7 -- String-Meta -- taken up [from addison]
14:38:19 <addison> https://github.com/w3c/string-meta/pull/55
14:38:29 <fsasaki> addison: pull request has bidi keywords in it
14:38:45 <fsasaki> ... I added small subsection
14:39:11 <fsasaki> ... xfq commented that basically ltr and rtl refers to CSS, auto refers to definition in HTML
14:39:31 <fsasaki> ... question whether I should bring definitions here or put them by reference
14:39:50 <fsasaki> ... started to indicate difference between ltr and cases to bring in auto
14:40:03 <fsasaki> ... open the floor to comments
14:41:19 <fsasaki> richard: there might places where you need to use metadata, which resolves through other rules to left-to-right
14:41:34 <fsasaki> ... if the direction of content is not known, you should use auto rules
14:41:51 <fsasaki> addison: if there is no direction, you use auto
14:41:54 <fsasaki> richard: you use auto
14:42:01 <fsasaki> addison: that is UBA
14:42:12 <fsasaki> richard: auto says: use the UBA
14:42:29 <fsasaki> .. if you do not have auto, things are up to the application
14:42:50 <addison> <p dir=ltr>dldld <span dir=auto>...</span>.... </p>
14:43:09 <fsasaki> richard: discussing section 2.4 ... that is "auto"
14:43:18 <fsasaki> addison: my thinking is two-fold:
14:43:27 <fsasaki> ... if you send s.t., you should indicate the direction
14:43:35 <fsasaki> ... if you do not know the direction, "auto" is not helpful
14:43:38 <fsasaki> richard: agree
14:43:48 <fsasaki> addison: if you do not know the direction, do not send it
14:44:03 <fsasaki> ... if you define e.g. HTML, you need all three values
14:44:50 <xfq> scribe+
14:45:10 <xfq> r12a: some of the formats for which we wrote this document
14:45:24 <xfq> ... we do recommend auto
14:45:45 <xfq> addison: we recommend the auto heuristics, but not necessarily the auto keyword
14:45:59 <xfq> ... two things
14:46:10 <xfq> ... first is define the direction, the dir attribute
14:46:35 <xfq> ... under what situations you will allow those values and consume
14:47:13 <xfq> r12a: is there a problem if somebody uses the auto label?
14:47:33 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/06/10-i18n-minutes.html xfq
14:48:09 <xfq> addison: i think i have enough information to do some more edits
14:48:36 <xfq> ... do we want to draw specific distinctions or recommendations for when to use direction and when to use dir
14:49:07 <xfq> r12a: I read that and I had the same questions
14:49:12 <xfq> s/questions/question
14:49:35 <xfq> addison: i could be less prescriptive and just leave that aside
14:49:46 <xfq> ... we would be super sad to see both
14:49:59 <xfq> r12a: you could have lang and language
14:50:12 <xfq> addison: it's the same problem
14:50:22 <xfq> r12a: language is usually used for metadata
14:51:05 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/06/10-i18n-minutes.html xfq
14:52:18 <xfq> epub: https://w3c.github.io/epub-specs/epub33/core/#sec-shared-attrs
14:52:49 <xfq> Publication Manifest: https://www.w3.org/TR/pub-manifest/#manifest-lang-dir-global
14:53:05 <addison> "property" not "data value"
14:53:33 <xfq> addison: i'll take another whack at it
14:53:41 <xfq> bert: i like it
14:54:37 <addison> zakim, take up agendum 9
14:54:37 <Zakim> agendum 9 -- AOB? -- taken up [from addison]
14:55:05 <xfq> addison: developing localizable manifests
14:55:16 <xfq> ... i used respect to create the draft
14:55:22 <xfq> s/respect/respec/
14:55:36 <xfq> ... i used i18n-draft as the home
14:56:08 <xfq> ... r12a do you suggest we should just make a new repo?
14:56:18 <xfq> r12a: it may end up being a very short note
14:56:34 <xfq> ... if it's going to be an article it should be in an article format
14:57:49 <xfq> xfq: If we are writing for spec developers, a note might be better
14:59:18 <xfq> r12a: if we decide to make it into an article we don't want it to be in a repo
14:59:46 <xfq> addison: i'll move it to temp and we'll discuss whether it should be a note
15:00:26 <xfq> r12a: it depends on whether we're going to have mustards in it
15:00:38 <xfq> addison: it's a best practice document
15:01:10 <xfq> r12a: mustards are not normative, they are recommendations
15:01:27 <xfq> ... a way of getting the message across
15:01:52 <xfq> ... it wasn't to say these are the normative bits
15:02:01 <xfq> ... even in charmod fundamental
15:02:40 <xfq> addison: if you have comments on the text
15:02:47 <xfq> ... that would be super useful
15:03:15 <atsushi> will join immediaterly after i18n finished
15:03:23 <xfq> ... i'll email the list
15:04:07 <xfq> rrsagent, make minutes
15:04:07 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/06/10-i18n-minutes.html xfq
15:04:15 <Najib> Najib has joined #i18n
15:04:18 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/06/10-i18n-minutes.html addison
15:06:28 <atsushi> s/will join immediaterly after i18n finished//
15:06:42 <atsushi> I had the same issue for today's another meeting...
15:13:01 <r12a> rrsagent, draft minutes
15:13:01 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/06/10-i18n-minutes.html r12a
15:13:33 <r12a> xfq, seems to be working now