Meeting minutes
Setting up meeting, choosing scribe
<dmontalvo> https://
FYIs on proposals to redefine scope for module "Inclusive Design Process"
<dmontalvo> https://
daniel: thanks for attending
… lets discuss first FYIs
daniel: approach is to encourage involvement of people with disabilities in user research
… designer has some responsibility to plan involvement of persons with disabilities in design process
… removed some text that implies persons with disabilities must be involved directly
<dmontalvo> https://
slewth: can we have a link to the module
… you have narrowed the approach a little bit
[New] Topic "Assessing Involvement of People with Disabilities".
daniel: yes we have narrowed it a little bit
daniel: we have a new topic on involvement of persons with disabilities and the benefits
… stresses the importance of involving persons with disabilities. Does this topic clarify more responsibilities of designers?
Roberto: I like that it emphasise the need to involve persons with disabilities
carlosd: I've one comment on the name of the topic - makes it sound like we are assessing of they shoudl be involbed or not
… second comment is if we are asking experts advice this is not an alternative to including persons with disabilties
donal_f: I agree also with carlos
slewth: I also agree
… I do not know what are now changing to assess
… also why we say discuss rather than identify or something else
daniel: do we say we are providing alternative methods
… we need to provide a work around if people with disabilities are not included
… what other ideas do you have for this?
slewth: work around sounds technical or that its a way to avoid involving people
shadi: do it understand correctly - if I am using WCAG or personas this is including persons with disabilities?
roberto: we want to include persons with disabilities either directly, through research or through guidelines
shadi: for example, when designing videos we provide captions. then involving people with disabilities could be a way to test if this is useful and working
… in the case of captions the needs are fairly well understood. but for new design e.g. in 3D are the needs so well understood. And then there can be other interactions that make it complicated
… main point is that at a certain point of complexity, involving persons with disabilities is advisable.
… however it may not be feasible.
estella: I agree and disagree!
… taking user interface as an example and visual, font, etc. the design should be aware of this but I dont know how the designer can identify something but maybe not assess.
… so how far we can recommend the designer assess something. how much sense does this make in the context of what you are saying.
shadi: there may be situations hwere it may not be necessary
carlos: it really depends
shadi: where there are specific requirements document that provide a specific plateau.
Roberto: an exmaple is a timeout dialog.
… there is usually the question that however you do it will pass WCAG but there are differnt ways to do it. There has to be some research involved. If its complex, you may want to involve users
… if it simpler you may just want to define a use case and ask an expert
roberto: some complex form design is a better example,
… wcag will not tell you all requirements but you may need to involve users at some stage.
shadi: This question was also asked this morning. Why involve the designer? There is a design element.
… Roberto you find that where the requirements are not sufficient, you may want to involve users to see if its feasible/workable.
Roberto: there are so many questions
Shadi: where does it lie - at some level you need to involve users.
Roberto: the problem is where and when to involve users. You are not going to involve actual users for all decisions. But their needs in parts of a project.
Shadi: The involvement of experts can sometimes get my alarm bells going. i agree with Roberto but the issue is that sometimes people think they can represent people with disabilities and are not.
… what do we want to say? We are suggets people involve experts but we need be careful.
Daniel: it seems that this this alternative part is not clicking.
… Roberto: i was involved in a project with search feature. the question was what is a good accessibility pattern? Sometime you look at what has been done already
Shadi: looking at the topics. I wonder, can we fold the point of the first topic into others.
… so for user research we can say when students should go out into the real world and involve people.
… in some circumstances.
Donal_f: do we have an scutaukl definition of what user reseach is or means? what does it mean to people?
Shadi: what does it mean to you?
Donal_f: I bring it under a topic I teach of understanding users. and when it is more advisable to use desktop research etc
shadi: to me understanding users seem like an alternative title. looking at the learning outcomes...
donal_f: the learing outcome are publicly available from my module are publicly available....
daniel: we need to better acknowledge when its better to involve users and when desk topic research is enough. Is this sufficient for those of you have express concern?
Roberto: I like the idea of ...
Daniel: should it be in the module title?
Daniel: If we are going to narrow the situations where we actually involve users, should we chnage the module title?
Shadi: Understanding or involving user
Estella: this would be to chnage the module title:
Daniel: yes the module title would be involving or including users
Gerhad: something we could consider is to provide the benefits of including users. if we provide the value for it, they can make their own view. If we communicate the value
Daniel: yes, i have the word benefits in the module.
… we have this in the into module. but we could stress the benefits of involving people in the design...
Estella: then module 7 would be module 1?
Daniel: I'm not sure we're focusing just on implementing the design.
… that is a good point, Estella. What should be position of this module with respect to other module
Estella: to me user research also involves usability testing. understanding plus implementing.
… from design to implementation.
Daniel: is there a common undersatnding we can reply upon this is what user research mean.
… before we move to the last point. To summarise
… I will take another pass, focus more on situations where involvement is needed, I will change module title to involving users and see how people like that.
Position of "Inclusive Design Process" with respect to the whole designer modules sequence
Daneil: Previously this module was first in the sequence.
… but based on feedback we decided to move that to the last position.
… to try and say that if your don't do user research, then this module is not for you.
… based on what carlos and estella are saying, this should be reconsidered.
… should it be in the first, last middle position?
Slewth: I agree. Putting it up front makes sense.
Daniel: who else?
shadi: there is not real sequence implied. If peopleteach design do they start with user design or techniques or this a more advanced topic.
slewth: its a tricky topic.
… when teacher plan how to come at this - accessibility is about involving people with disabilities - so emphasising it is important.
Shadi: putting it first is important. Some people react its not possible.
… we do want to push borders.
slewth: what I like about calling it understanding and involving users is broadening peoples understanding of involving people.
<shadi> +1 to Sarah
<CarlosD> +1
slewth: for people starting out they might want to just bring in aspect - but at the same time - not everyone is able to include people. So without overloading teachers, we can convey values to teachers that they can convey to students that will infleunce them
<GN> +1 to Sarah
Roberto: would the change from involving to understanding be sufficient.
Daniel: there will be a lot of work to reword it like this.
Estella: I agree with Sarah and Carlos also. This will be the logical order that design projects and processes follow.
Next Steps
Daniel: thank you for attending. I will take another pass on this module while working in the background on the other modulesto be brought forward for discussion. I will follow up on email and the list. lets keep in touch!
<dmontalvo> g/exmaple/example/
<dmontalvo> s/the learing outcome are publicly available from my module are publicly available/the learning outcomes from my module are publicly available/
<dmontalvo> g/chnage/change/
<dmontalvo> s/undersatnding understanding/
<dmontalvo> s/reply upon this is what user reseach /rely upon this is what user research/