14:03:09 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #wai-curricula
14:03:09 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2021/05/11-wai-curricula-irc
14:03:11 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
14:03:12 <Zakim> please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), dmontalvo
14:04:10 <dmontalvo> Meeting: WAI Curricula Task Force Teleconference
14:04:21 <dmontalvo> Chair: Daniel
14:08:27 <shadi> shadi has joined #wai-curricula
14:45:34 <DonalR> DonalR has joined #wai-curricula
14:45:41 <DonalR> agenda+
14:45:51 <DonalR> agenda?
14:57:24 <Roberto> Roberto has joined #wai-curricula
14:57:56 <Roberto> present+
14:58:59 <DonalR> scribe: Donalr
15:01:00 <dmontalvo> zakim, take up next
15:01:00 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- Setting up meeting, choosing scribe -- taken up [from dmontalvo]
15:01:15 <dmontalvo> https://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/wiki/WAI_Curricula/WAI_Curricula_Task_Force_Meetings
15:01:22 <dmontalvo> zakim, close item 1
15:01:22 <Zakim> agendum 1, Setting up meeting, choosing scribe, closed
15:01:23 <Zakim> I see 5 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
15:01:23 <Zakim> 2. FYIs on proposals to redefine scope for module "Inclusive Design Process" [from dmontalvo]
15:02:04 <dmontalvo> zakim, take up next
15:02:04 <Zakim> agendum 2 -- FYIs on proposals to redefine scope for module "Inclusive Design Process" -- taken up [from dmontalvo]
15:02:23 <dmontalvo> https://deploy-preview-347--wai-curricula.netlify.app/curricula/designer-modules/inclusive-design-process/
15:02:36 <GN> GN has joined #wai-curricula
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15:03:38 <DonalR> daniel: thanks for attending
15:03:44 <GN> present+
15:04:04 <DonalR> ...lets discuss first FYIs
15:05:00 <DonalR> daniel: approach is to encourage involvement of persosn with disabilitiers in user research
15:05:36 <DonalR> ...designer has some responsibility to plan involvement of persons with disabilities in design process
15:06:25 <DonalR> ...removed some text that implies persons with disabilities must be involved directly
15:06:27 <dmontalvo> https://deploy-preview-347--wai-curricula.netlify.app/curricula/designer-modules/inclusive-design-process/
15:06:38 <CarlosD> CarlosD has joined #wai-curricula
15:07:17 <DonalR> slewth: can we have a link to the module
15:07:39 <DonalR> ...you have narrowed the approach a little bit
15:07:45 <dmontalvo> zakim, take up next
15:07:45 <Zakim> agendum 3 -- [New] Topic "Assessing Involvement of People with Disabilities". -- taken up [from dmontalvo]
15:07:55 <dmontalvo> https://deploy-preview-347--wai-curricula.netlify.app/curricula/designer-modules/inclusive-design-process/#topic-assessing-the-involvement-of-people-with-disabilities
15:08:03 <DonalR> daniel: yes we have norrowed it a little bit
15:08:50 <DonalR> daniel: we have a new topic on involvement of persons with disabilities and the benefits
15:09:56 <DonalR> ...stresses the importance of involving persons with disabilities.  Does this topic clarify more responsibilities of designers?
15:10:17 <DonalR> Roberto: I like that it emphasise the need to involve persons with disabilities
15:10:58 <Donal_Fitzpatrick> Donal_Fitzpatrick has joined #wai-curricula
15:11:10 <DonalR> carlosd: I've one comment on the name of the topic  - makes it sound like we are assessing of they shoudl be involbed or not
15:11:15 <Donal_Fitzpatrick> +present
15:12:03 <DonalR> ...second comment is if we are asking experts advice this is not an alternative to including persons with disabilties
15:12:29 <DonalR> donal_f: I agree also with carlos
15:12:56 <DonalR> slewth: I also agree
15:13:11 <DonalR> ...I do not know what are now changing to assess
15:13:45 <DonalR> ...also why we say discuss rather than identify or something else
15:14:19 <DonalR> daniel: do we say we are providing alternative methods
15:14:44 <DonalR> ...we need to provide a work around if people with disabilities are not included
15:15:06 <DonalR> ...what other ideas do you have for this?
15:16:02 <DonalR> slewth: work around sounds  technical or that its a way to avoid involving people
15:16:54 <DonalR> shadi: do it understand correctly - if I am using WCAG or personas this is including persons with disabilities?
15:17:29 <DonalR> roberto: we want to include persons with disabilities either directly, through research or through guidelines
15:18:18 <DonalR> shadi: for example, when designing vidoes we provide captions.  then involving persosn with disabilities could be a way to test if this is useful and working
15:19:10 <DonalR> ...in the case of captions the needs are fairly well understood.  but for new design e.g. in 3D are the needs so well understood.  And then there can be other interatcions tha make it complicated
15:19:58 <DonalR> ...main point is that at a certain point of complexity, involving persons with disabiltiies is advisable.
15:20:12 <DonalR> ...however it may not be feasible.
15:20:41 <DonalR> estella: I agree and disagree!
15:21:32 <DonalR> ...taking user interface as an example and visual, font, etc.  the design should be aware of this but I dont know how the designer can identify  something but maybe not assess.
15:22:13 <DonalR> ...so how far we can recommend the designer assess something.  how much sense does this make in the context of what you are saying.
15:23:01 <DonalR> shadi: there may be situations hwere it may not be necessary
15:23:14 <DonalR> carlos: it really depends
15:23:42 <DonalR> shadi: where there are speciifc requirements document that provide a specific plateau.
15:24:03 <DonalR> Roberto: an exmaple is a timeout dialog.
15:25:00 <DonalR> ...there are usually questioin that however you do it will pass WCAG but there are differnt ways to do it.  There has to be some research involved.  If its complex, you may want ot involve users
15:25:18 <DonalR> ...if it simpler you may just want to define a use case and ask an expert
15:25:57 <DonalR> roberto: some complex form design is a better exmaple,
15:26:27 <DonalR> ...wcag will not tell you all requirements but you may need to involve users at some stage.
15:27:19 <DonalR> shadi: This question was also asked this morning. Why involve the designer?  There is a design element.
15:28:14 <DonalR> ...Roberto you find that hwere the requirements are not sufficient, you may want to involve users to see if its feasible/workable.
15:28:23 <DonalR> Roberto: there are so many questions
15:28:42 <DonalR> Shadi: where does it lie - at some level you need to involve users.
15:29:45 <DonalR> Roberto: the problem is where and when to involve users.  You are not going to involve acutal users for all decisions.  But its needs in parts of a project.
15:30:41 <DonalR> Shadi: The involvement of experts can sometimes get my alarm bells goinf.  i afreee with Roberto but the issue is that sometime people think they are experts and are not.
15:31:25 <DonalR> ...what do we want to say?  We are suggets people involve experts but we need be careful.
15:31:41 <DonalR> Daniel: it seems that this this alternative part is not clicking.
15:31:53 <shadi> s/think they are experts/think they can represent people with disabilities
15:33:06 <DonalR> ... Roberto: i was involved in a project with search feature.  the question was what is a good accessibility pattern?  Sometime you look at what has been done already
15:34:00 <DonalR> Shadi: looking at the topics.  I likwonder can we fold the point oft he first topic into others.
15:34:29 <DonalR> ... so for user research we can say when students shoudl so out into the real world and involve people.
15:34:45 <DonalR> ...in some circumstances.
15:35:17 <DonalR> Donal_f: do we have an scutaukl definition of what user reseach is or means? what does it mean to people?
15:35:25 <DonalR> Shadi: what does it mean to you?
15:36:13 <DonalR> Donal_f: I bring it under a topic I teach of understanding users. and when it is more advisable to use desktop research etc
15:36:48 <DonalR> shadi: to me understanding users seem like an alternative title.  looking at the learning outcomes...
15:38:13 <DonalR> donal_f: the learing outcome are publicly available  from my module are publicly available....
15:39:08 <DonalR> daniel: we need to better acknoledge when its better to involve users and when desk topic research is enough.    Is this sufficient for those of you have express concern?
15:39:28 <DonalR> Roberto: I like the idea of ...
15:39:45 <DonalR> Daniel: should it be in the topic title?
15:40:05 <shadi> s/topic title/module title
15:42:06 <DonalR> Daniel: If we are going to narrow the situations where we actually involve users, should we chnage the module title?
15:42:40 <DonalR> Shadi: Understanding or involving user
15:42:53 <DonalR> Estlella: this would be to chnage the module title:
15:43:11 <DonalR> Daniel: yes the modulke title would be involving or including users
15:44:24 <DonalR> Gerhad: something we could consider is to provide the benefits of including   users.  if we provide the value for it, they can make their own view.  If we communicate the value
15:45:01 <DonalR> Daniel: yes, i have the word benefits in the module.
15:45:29 <DonalR> ...we have this in the into module.  but we could stress the benefits of involing people in the design...
15:45:48 <DonalR> Estella: then module 7 would be module 1?
15:46:30 <DonalR> Daniel: I'm not sure we're focusing just on implementing the design.
15:47:07 <DonalR> ...that is a good point, Estella.  What should be position of this module with respect to other module
15:47:40 <DonalR> Estella: to me user research also involves usabiltiy testing.  understanding plus implementing.
15:47:53 <DonalR> ...from design to implementation.
15:48:39 <DonalR> Daniel: is there a common undersatnding we can reply upon this is what user reseach mean.
15:48:56 <DonalR> ...before we move to the last point.  To summarise
15:49:38 <DonalR> ...I will take another pass, focus more onsitutaions where involvement is needed, I will chnage module title to involving users and see how people like that.
15:50:15 <dmontalvo> zakim, take up item 5
15:50:15 <Zakim> agendum 5 -- Position of "Inclusive Design Process" with respect to the whole designer modules sequence -- taken up [from dmontalvo]
15:51:05 <DonalR> Daneil:Previosuly this module was first in the sequence.
15:51:36 <DonalR> ...but based on feedback we decided to move that to the last position.
15:51:59 <DonalR> ...to try and say that if your don't do user research, then this module is not for you.
15:52:20 <DonalR> ...based on what carlos and estella are saying, this should be reconsidered.
15:52:41 <DonalR> ...should it be in the first, last middle position?
15:53:13 <DonalR> Slewth: I agree.  Putting it up front makes sense.
15:53:20 <DonalR> Daniel: who else?
15:54:11 <DonalR> shadi: there is not real sequence implied.  If poeple teach design do they start with user design or techniques or this a more advanced topic.
15:54:26 <DonalR> slewth: its a tricky topic.
15:55:21 <DonalR> ...when teacher plan how to come at this - accessibility is about involving people with disabilties - so emphasising it is important.
15:55:41 <DonalR> Shadi: putting it first is important.  Some people react its not possible.
15:55:58 <DonalR> ...we do want to push borders.
15:56:59 <DonalR> slewth: what I like about calling it understanding and involving users is broadening peoples understanding of involving people.
15:57:06 <shadi> +1 to Sarah
15:58:42 <CarlosD> +1
15:58:49 <DonalR> ...for people starting out they might want to just bring in aspect - but at the same time - not everyone is able to  include people.  So without overlaoding teachers, we can convey values to teachers that they can convey to students that will infleunce them
15:59:14 <GN> +1 to Sarah
16:00:03 <DonalR> Roberto: would the change from involving to understanding be sufficient.
16:00:27 <DonalR> Daniel: there will be a lot of work to reword it like this.
16:01:23 <DonalR> Estella:  I agree with Saras and Carlos also.  Thios will be the logical order that design projects and processes follow.
16:02:08 <dmontalvo> Topi: NExt steps
16:02:21 <dmontalvo> Topic: Next Steps
16:03:30 <DonalR> Daniel: thank you for attending.  I will take another pass on this while working on background with other ones to be brought forward for discussion.  I will follow up on email and the list.  lets keep in touch!
16:04:36 <dmontalvo> s/Topi: NExt steps//
16:04:46 <dmontalvo> rrsagent, make minutes
16:04:46 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/05/11-wai-curricula-minutes.html dmontalvo
16:07:35 <dmontalvo> s/persosn/people/
16:08:47 <dmontalvo> s/disabilitiers/disabilities/
16:10:20 <dmontalvo> s/norrowed/narrowed/
16:11:13 <dmontalvo> s/shoudl/should/
16:11:53 <dmontalvo> s/+present//
16:12:20 <dmontalvo> s/disabilties/disabilities/
16:13:50 <dmontalvo> s/vidoes/videos/
16:14:20 <dmontalvo> s/persosn/people/
16:15:08 <dmontalvo> s/interatcions tha/interactions that/
16:16:28 <dmontalvo> s/disabiltiies/disabilities/
16:17:20 <dmontalvo> s/hwere/where/
16:17:49 <dmontalvo> s/speciifc/specific/
16:18:24 <dmontalvo> s/exmaple/example/
16:19:49 <dmontalvo> s/there are usually questioin/there is usually the question/
16:20:07 <dmontalvo> s/ot involve/to involve/
16:20:47 <dmontalvo> rrsagent, make minutes
16:20:47 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/05/11-wai-curricula-minutes.html dmontalvo
16:22:27 <dmontalvo> g/exmaple/example/
16:24:06 <dmontalvo> s/acutal/actual/
16:24:34 <dmontalvo> s/its needs/their needs/
16:25:12 <dmontalvo> s/goinf/going/
16:25:29 <dmontalvo> s/afree/agree/
16:25:44 <dmontalvo> s/sometime people/sometimes people/
16:27:54 <dmontalvo> s/likwonder/wonder,/
16:28:32 <dmontalvo> rrsagent, make minutes
16:28:32 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/05/11-wai-curricula-minutes.html dmontalvo
16:29:50 <dmontalvo> s/agreee/agree/
16:31:01 <dmontalvo> s/oft he/of the/
16:31:40 <dmontalvo> s/so out/go out/
16:34:47 <dmontalvo> s/reseach/research/
16:36:17 <dmontalvo> s/the learing outcome are publicly available from my module are publicly available/the learning outcomes from my module are publicly available/
16:37:12 <dmontalvo> s/acknoledge/acknowledge/
16:38:14 <dmontalvo> s/chnage/change/
16:38:57 <dmontalvo> s/modulke/module/
16:39:39 <dmontalvo> s/Estlella/Estella/
16:39:59 <dmontalvo> g/chnage/change/
16:40:56 <dmontalvo> s/involing/involving/
16:41:27 <dmontalvo> s/usabiltiy/usability/
16:42:00 <dmontalvo> s/undersatnding understanding/
16:42:45 <dmontalvo> s/reply upon this is what user reseach /rely upon this is what user research/
16:43:08 <dmontalvo> s/onsitutaions/on situations/
16:44:20 <dmontalvo> s/Previosuly/Previously/
16:44:58 <dmontalvo> s/poeple /people/
16:45:47 <dmontalvo> s/overlaoding/overloading/
16:46:22 <dmontalvo> s/Thios/This/
16:46:40 <dmontalvo> s/Saras/Sarah/
16:47:33 <dmontalvo> s/this while working on background with other ones /this module while working in the background on the other modules/
16:48:36 <dmontalvo> Present: Shadi, Carlos, Roberto, Donal J, Donal R, Sarah, Gerhard, Estella
16:48:41 <dmontalvo> Regrets: Dave, Howard
16:48:46 <dmontalvo> rrsagent, make minutes
16:48:46 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/05/11-wai-curricula-minutes.html dmontalvo
16:51:09 <dmontalvo> zakim, end meeting
16:51:09 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been Shadi, Carlos, Roberto, Donal, J, Sarah, Gerhard, Estella
16:51:11 <Zakim> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
16:51:11 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/05/11-wai-curricula-minutes.html Zakim
16:51:14 <Zakim> I am happy to have been of service, dmontalvo; please remember to excuse RRSAgent.  Goodbye
16:51:18 <Zakim> Zakim has left #wai-curricula