Cognitive and Learning Disabilities Accessibility Task Force Teleconference

21 January 2021


Fazio, Jennie, JustineP, LisaSeemanKest, stevelee
Jennie, lisaseemankest

Meeting minutes

actions https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/task-forces/coga/wiki/PlanningPage#group_actions_.2Ftodo_for_next_publication

<LisaSeemanKest> jennie - images going well!

I am also moving forward on the issues

Lisa: Justine has been working on issues, and we will talk about the icons in a later item

Justine: I have been breaking some of the larger issues into subissues

Lisa: Which one?

Justine: Issue #163

Lisa: That's a new one
… This came in a while ago

Justine: It is listed on our tracker in row 80, and says to break it into sub topics, so I took on that action

Lisa: Have you started doing it yet?

Justine: I have completed issue 9
… I am breaking them out in the COGA issue tracker
… In the Google Spreadsheet

Lisa: Normally when there are 3 or 5 issues, they are done by one person, but this one is quite big.
… OK. Maybe also send an email to Rachael that you are doing it
… She may have broken it up already in the Google doc

Justine: OK. I did send Rachael an email. I'm just waiting to hear back from her.

Lisa: OK I think we should have a call if possible so we are all on the same page.
… or at least an email thread. Can you add Jennie and I to that email thread so we are all in agreement?

Justine: yes

Lisa: David was going to speak with Autism Speaks

David F: I reached out to some groups, but am having some difficulty reaching the groups. And I was reluctant to speak to one of the groups.
… I reached out to my contacts at work, and asked them to reach out to the organizations they work with
… I also reached out to another group, and will follow up with them
… I have not heard back from anyone just yet.

Lisa: Can we ask you to be a bit more aggressive and get responses from more people

David F: I did an online poll, and got about 50 responses, but it is a mixed group of people.
… Interesting, it is about 50/50

Lisa: Is that on your LinkedIn?

David F: yes

Lisa: Then we can all look at the responses there.

David F: It is a passionate conversation

Lisa: I think it is reasonable for us to say we are more interested in responses from people with autism

David F: that's what I tried to do

Lisa: If you write up a conclusion to the list based on the results

David F: The people that don't have a disability always say person first
… The people with autism - identify first appears to be the preference

Lisa: If that can go into an email and we have that on record

David F: Give me another week and I can get more concrete information

Lisa: OK
… For E.A.'s item I will send her an email
… Roy has merged part 1 into the git and done some other things

Roy: I did a pull request and asked for a request from you and Rachael

<Roy> https://github.com/w3c/coga/pull/230

Lisa: Do you have the rawgit?

Roy: yes but I also created a demo to show the collapse and expand
… also the Part 1

<Roy> https://raw.githack.com/w3c/coga/expand-demo/content-usable/index.html#summary

Roy: The pull request does not include the demo
… the demo is under the summary

<Fazio> Here's the link to my LinkedIn Poll on Person 1st language regarding Autism https://www.linkedin.com/posts/julianna-rowsell-86625624_autism-cognitive-autistic-activity-6757703302181380096-Uiee

Roy: On the demo, if it is ok, I will implement in all of the document

Lisa: I got through most of my edit, but I have more to do
… I also have some issues to read through
… Rachael has a couple of items as well

<LisaSeemanKest> regrets ea, rachael\

set calls for editorial review

Lisa: We have a lot of editorial work to complete
… Steve - could you email me as to when it is good for us to get to more editorial work?

images update and icons. See ocns at https://docs.google.com/document/d/1aRoYev1aAIHhIq37Itt96ueBwLh5zXMUeJBYxL0MCkQ/edit#

Lisa: the images - we are running late

I can report on the schedule/timeline next week

Lisa: If you want to send this to the list earlier that works too

Will do!

Lisa: We had some feedback in regards to the icons from the internationalization group

<LisaSeemanKest> icon review: https://github.com/w3c/coga/issues/231

Lisa: this is a link to the issue
… where they had some comments

<LisaSeemanKest> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1aRoYev1aAIHhIq37Itt96ueBwLh5zXMUeJBYxL0MCkQ/edit#

Lisa: this is a link to different icons we have been working on
… for icon 1: they said that in Japan (I think) they found the meaning confusing
… circle means correct, and a checkmark in some places means incorrect
… I don't know if we want to rereview the icon, or if it can be considered close enough

Roy: In China we don't have specific meanings - maybe I should try to do some research on this for China and Japan and then tell you

Lisa: To you it looks like checkboxes and radio buttons?

Roy: It looks good to me, but I am not sure if it is ok for Chinese or Japanese people

Lisa: I think we were more worried about offending people
… The comments were from R12A

David F: We have a translator for the accessibility guidelines working group - I can send this to him to have him review it

Lisa: That would be fantastic

Roy: I think Richard is the commenter and his wife is Japanese so he is familiar with Japanese culture

Lisa: He wrote checkmark - in some Asian cultures means different things
… But our new icon is clearer - I think we just need more feedback on the new icon
… The new one from last week
… idea 2.2 is next to it
… It is a square and a circle to the left, another to the right
… It should be a bit clearer
… We will get more feedback on it before we do anything further - correct?

David F: yes

Lisa: The next one we are discussing is icon 4
… The commenter said he preferred the original one
… It was a pie graph and a chart
… He suggested it might be easier if the pie chart had color
… Should we take a quick poll - do you prefer the new one or the old one

<LisaSeemanKest> new(3) or old(pie and graph)

<LisaSeemanKest> 0

<Roy> 0

<JustineP> 0 - torn between the two

Lisa: We had person in the comments saying they didn't like the original, now we have someone saying they prefer the original
… I think we will leave it with the current consensus
… Now we are looking at the icon for 5 Help users avoid mistakes

<LisaSeemanKest> agree

Justine: I'm concerned that if we add anything we will have extra clutter and that may impact people with low vision

Lisa: I agree
… Moving to Icon 7 - the image with an index finger with a bow on it
… there is also one with a head with a disk inside the head
… Internationalization may mean it is not understood, not just if it offends people
… I like the reminder
… This is images suggesting memory, not reminders exactly
… We could look for another idea, we could go with the original one

<LisaSeemanKest> what do we want to do

Lisa: It is not offending anyone

<LisaSeemanKest> first draft

<LisaSeemanKest> jennie - other options

Lisa: Anyone else think we should look for other options?

Kris Anne: I know that there is a lot of work being done on icons
… I will reach out to Shawn Henry to find out where those are - they have a head with a brain
… I'm wondering if that might work

Lisa: It might
… This is for ensuring processes don't rely on memory
… I don't know if memory is the right icon
… It is also cognitive accessibility
… If using a WAI icon that means cognitive, but this is specific, it may be the wrong association

Kris Anne: OK, that's fine

<LisaSeemanKest> jenie: ask ea

Lisa: I think the action is to ask on the list for ideas for this symbol
… If we don't have any by next week, we can ask the person who commented if they have a suggestion


<JustineP> +1

<krisannekinney> +1

Lisa: OK I will post this to the list

issue 141 maths https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-cognitive-a11y-tf/2021Jan/0043.html

Justine: An individual submitted an issue and felt that using the abbreviated term math can be confused for being a noun or a verb
… We explored using math, or if it would be preferred to use mathematical or mathmatics
… I spoke with John Rochford and he felt that using math was preferred
… I think to address this concern we can put, after the first instance in the document, information to clarify the meaning

<Fazio> +1

Justine: I sent a suggestion to the list with that recommendation

<LisaSeemanKest> +1


<JustineP> +1

<krisannekinney> +1

David F: I think that follows standard best practice

<LisaSeemanKest> justing

Lisa: We have a document with the list of edits that still need to be done

<LisaSeemanKest> justien add it to the todo list at https://docs.google.com/document/d/1l5xiuYG2IYBP7vgS5FSzOPJ1NtJdPRSckpY6tt3n9IE/edit#

Justine: That sounds fine to me, and I will close out the issue and send a reply

Lisa: great!

issue 144 - adding benigits to AAC https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-cognitive-a11y-tf/2021Jan/0038.html

it is about 143!

Object permanence. and Motor automaticity

proposal at https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-cognitive-a11y-tf/2021Jan/0038.html


<Jennie> Lisa: you said next draft and I think you version

<Jennie> I can do that

<Jennie> Lisa: I think adding a sentence saying we can add some clarification to 4.2.3 and 4.3.4 and I put it in the editors' to do list

4.2.3 (before “This pattern helps by:”)

Using a standard Visual layout, and consistently positioning elements consistently will help user rely on muscle memory to use them.

Add and in”use”

Element are consistently positioned across pages

<Jennie> ...We can add some clarifications

4.3.4: Add: Many uses will not find content by paging through different screens

6.2.1 Amy Scenario 1: Add

Amy copes best when important elements are consistently positioned where she can see them. She can focus on the actual content and not finding things.

<Jennie> ...Very small commets

<Jennie> ...We can say adding into 4.2.3 into how it helps (reads from text above)

<Jennie> ...using word for word what they say

<Jennie> ...And in 4.3.4 (reads from text above)

<Jennie> ...I thought we could add to Amy's story (reads from above)

<Jennie> David F: I'm all for adding the concepts we need, but in regards to automaticity is this part of the scope of what we are doing

<Jennie> ...We are talking about cognitive situations

<Jennie> ...Seems like we are opening the door for other scenarios that are not related

It is a concept well researched in regards to AAC and it does line up with being included

Lisa: I think we add some clarification for how it helps and add more in a future version
… This first part is just editorial
… And then David we could discuss this for future versions

if the group is ok i am


Straw poll #1: are you ok with the responses including the examples from the current document

<LisaSeemanKest> +1

<LisaSeemanKest> scrtch that

<LisaSeemanKest> -1

<LisaSeemanKest> Just example +1

Lisa: many write an email to the list and have people vote

<Fazio> yes

Lisa: Would people prefer this?

Lisa: Maybe we can close this one on the list. Is everyone ok with that?

expand and colupse see https://raw.githack.com/w3c/coga/expand-demo/content-usable/index.html#summary

Lisa: OK we will try to resolve that one more on the list (referencing previous item)
… (discussing agenda item 6)
… They want a table in each section from the appendix
… they found the tables very useful
… Roy was able to add a more details element which could expand
… we could put the table in this details section which can expand
… For the plain language summary of the document, just after the table of contents

Steve: I like the plain language summary because it is short and concise - a quick overview
… putting the details in removes some of this. The personas will help, but the tables may be more than you normally see in the summary

Lisa: Does anyone want the mapping in it?

<LisaSeemanKest> -1

<Fazio> Agree with Steve

<stevelee> -1

Lisa: -1 if you don't want the mapping in

<krisannekinney> -1

Lisa: OK we don't want the mapping
… Do we want the details which expand
… and maybe add a link to the tables

<LisaSeemanKest> See also: user needs, design patterns and user testing for objective 1 and persona mapping.

Steve: I prefer that
… We have user needs in each one

Lisa: so we don't need to link to the mappings?

Lisa: Do we want this sentence in a pop up details?

Steve: I think plain text at the top

Lisa: Does anyone want it in pop up details?
… I am not hearing anyone liking it

<LisaSeemanKest> details

<LisaSeemanKest> 0

<LisaSeemanKest> steve -1

<Fazio> 0


David F: will anyone have problems with pop up blockers?

Steve: it is more of an expand

<krisannekinney> 0

*Lisa - I have to drop off - can you wrap up the minutes?

Minutes manually created (not a transcript), formatted by scribe.perl version 127 (Wed Dec 30 17:39:58 2020 UTC).


Maybe present: 4.3.4, Justine, Lisa, Roy, Steve