IRC log of coga on 2021-01-21

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14:03:25 [RRSAgent]
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logging to
14:03:27 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs public
14:03:30 [trackbot]
Meeting: Cognitive and Learning Disabilities Accessibility Task Force Teleconference
14:03:30 [trackbot]
Date: 21 January 2021
14:05:52 [LisaSeemanKest]
agenda+ actions
14:05:58 [LisaSeemanKest]
14:06:12 [LisaSeemanKest]
clear agenda
14:06:16 [LisaSeemanKest]
agenda+ actions
14:06:34 [LisaSeemanKest]
agenda+ set calls for editorial review
14:07:10 [LisaSeemanKest]
agenda+ images update and icons. See ocns at
14:12:26 [LisaSeemanKest]
agenda+ issue 141 maths
14:23:14 [LisaSeemanKest]
agenda+ issue 144 - adding benigits to AAC
14:54:08 [LisaSeemanKest]
14:55:56 [Fazio]
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14:57:20 [stevelee]
14:59:39 [Jennie]
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14:59:43 [Jennie]
15:01:02 [LisaSeemanKest]
15:02:08 [JustineP]
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15:02:56 [Jennie]
scribe: Jennie
15:02:58 [LisaSeemanKest]
scribe: Jennie
15:03:12 [LisaSeemanKest]
zakim, next item
15:03:12 [Zakim]
agendum 1 -- actions -- taken up [from LisaSeemanKest]
15:04:07 [LisaSeemanKest]
jennie - images going well!
15:04:23 [Fazio]
15:04:53 [Jennie]
I am also moving forward on the issues
15:05:05 [krisannekinney]
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15:05:39 [Jennie]
Lisa: Justine has been working on issues, and we will talk about the icons in a later item
15:05:50 [Jennie]
Justine: I have been breaking some of the larger issues into subissues
15:05:56 [Jennie]
Lisa: Which one?
15:06:05 [Jennie]
Justine: Issue #163
15:06:13 [Jennie]
Lisa: That's a new one
15:06:37 [Jennie]
...This came in a while ago
15:06:55 [Jennie]
Justine: It is listed on our tracker in row 80, and says to break it into sub topics, so I took on that action
15:07:04 [Jennie]
Lisa: Have you started doing it yet?
15:07:11 [Jennie]
Justine: I have completed issue 9
15:07:20 [Jennie]
...I am breaking them out in the COGA issue tracker
15:07:32 [Jennie]
...In the Google Spreadsheet
15:08:17 [Jennie]
Lisa: Normally when there are 3 or 5 issues, they are done by one person, but this one is quite big.
15:08:27 [Jennie]
...OK. Maybe also send an email to Rachael that you are doing it
15:08:37 [Jennie]
...She may have broken it up already in the Google doc
15:08:53 [Jennie]
Justine: OK. I did send Rachael an email. I'm just waiting to hear back from her.
15:09:19 [Jennie]
Lisa: OK I think we should have a call if possible so we are all on the same page.
15:09:39 [Jennie]
...or at least an email thread. Can you add Jennie and I to that email thread so we are all in agreement?
15:09:41 [Jennie]
Justine: yes
15:09:54 [Jennie]
Lisa: David was going to speak with Autism Speaks
15:10:21 [Jennie]
David F: I reached out to some groups, but am having some difficulty reaching the groups. And I was reluctant to speak to one of the groups.
15:10:40 [Jennie]
...I reached out to my contacts at work, and asked them to reach out to the organizations they work with
15:10:51 [Jennie]
...I also reached out to another group, and will follow up with them
15:11:02 [Jennie]
...I have not heard back from anyone just yet.
15:11:18 [Jennie]
Lisa: Can we ask you to be a bit more aggressive and get responses from more people
15:11:37 [Jennie]
David F: I did an online poll, and got about 50 responses, but it is a mixed group of people.
15:11:43 [Jennie]
....Interesting, it is about 50/50
15:11:51 [Jennie]
Lisa: Is that on your LinkedIn?
15:11:54 [Jennie]
David F: yes
15:12:03 [Jennie]
Lisa: Then we can all look at the responses there.
15:12:12 [Jennie]
David F: It is a passionate conversation
15:12:29 [Jennie]
Lisa: I think it is reasonable for us to say we are more interested in responses from people with autism
15:12:37 [Jennie]
David F: that's what I tried to do
15:13:03 [Jennie]
Lisa: If you write up a conclusion to the list based on the results
15:13:13 [Jennie]
David F: The people that don't have a disability always say person first
15:13:24 [Jennie]
...The people with autism - identify first appears to be the preference
15:13:33 [Jennie]
Lisa: If that can go into an email and we have that on record
15:13:58 [Jennie]
David F: Give me another week and I can get more concrete information
15:14:00 [Jennie]
Lisa: OK
15:14:12 [Jennie]
...For E.A.'s item I will send her an email
15:14:30 [Jennie]
...Roy has merged part 1 into the git and done some other things
15:14:40 [Jennie]
Roy: I did a pull request and asked for a request from you and Rachael
15:14:52 [Roy]
15:15:05 [Jennie]
Lisa: Do you have the rawgit?
15:15:19 [Jennie]
Roy: yes but I also created a demo to show the collapse and expand
15:15:35 [Jennie]
...also the Part 1
15:15:38 [Roy]
15:15:42 [Jennie]
...The pull request does not include the demo
15:15:58 [LisaSeemanKest]
agenda+ expand and colupse see
15:16:03 [Jennie]
...the demo is under the summary
15:16:15 [Fazio]
Here's the link to my LinkedIn Poll on Person 1st language regarding Autism
15:16:24 [Jennie]
Roy: On the demo, if it is ok, I will implement in all of the document
15:16:33 [Jennie]
Lisa: I got through most of my edit, but I have more to do
15:16:43 [Jennie]
...I also have some issues to read through
15:16:49 [Jennie]
...Rachael has a couple of items as well
15:16:50 [LisaSeemanKest]
zakim, next item
15:16:50 [Zakim]
I see a speaker queue remaining and respectfully decline to close this agendum, LisaSeemanKest
15:16:54 [LisaSeemanKest]
15:17:01 [LisaSeemanKest]
ack s
15:17:04 [LisaSeemanKest]
ack r
15:17:10 [LisaSeemanKest]
regrets ea, rachael\
15:17:15 [LisaSeemanKest]
zakim, next item
15:17:15 [Zakim]
agendum 2 -- set calls for editorial review -- taken up [from LisaSeemanKest]
15:17:26 [Jennie]
Lisa: We have a lot of editorial work to complete
15:18:12 [Jennie]
...Steve - could you email me as to when it is good for us to get to more editorial work?
15:18:22 [LisaSeemanKest]
zakim, next item
15:18:22 [Zakim]
agendum 3 -- images update and icons. See ocns at -- taken up [from LisaSeemanKest]
15:18:43 [Jennie]
Lisa: the images - we are running late
15:19:16 [Jennie]
I can report on the schedule/timeline next week
15:19:25 [Jennie]
Lisa: If you want to send this to the list earlier that works too
15:19:27 [Jennie]
Will do!
15:19:42 [Jennie]
Lisa: We had some feedback in regards to the icons from the internationalization group
15:19:46 [LisaSeemanKest]
icon review:
15:19:50 [Jennie]
...this is a link to the issue
15:19:56 [Jennie]
...where they had some comments
15:20:01 [LisaSeemanKest]
15:20:11 [Jennie]
...this is a link to different icons we have been working on
15:20:32 [Jennie]
...for icon 1: they said that in Japan (I think) they found the meaning confusing
15:20:47 [Jennie] means correct, and a checkmark in some places means incorrect
15:21:07 [Jennie]
...I don't know if we want to rereview the icon, or if it can be considered close enough
15:21:57 [Jennie]
Roy: In China we don't have specific meanings - maybe I should try to do some research on this for China and Japan and then tell you
15:22:11 [Jennie]
Lisa: To you it looks like checkboxes and radio buttons?
15:22:29 [Jennie]
Roy: It looks good to me, but I am not sure if it is ok for Chinese or Japanese people
15:22:37 [Jennie]
Lisa: I think we were more worried about offending people
15:22:57 [Jennie]
...The comments were from R12A
15:23:18 [Jennie]
David F: We have a translator for the accessibility guidelines working group - I can send this to him to have him review it
15:23:29 [Jennie]
Lisa: That would be fantastic
15:24:00 [Jennie]
Roy: I think Richard is the commenter and his wife is Japanese so he is familiar with Japanese culture
15:24:29 [Jennie]
Lisa: He wrote checkmark - in some Asian cultures means different things
15:24:41 [Jennie]
...But our new icon is clearer - I think we just need more feedback on the new icon
15:24:48 [Jennie]
...The new one from last week
15:25:36 [Jennie]
...idea 2.2 is next to it
15:25:52 [Jennie]
...It is a square and a circle to the left, another to the right
15:27:08 [Jennie]
...It should be a bit clearer
15:27:21 [Jennie]
...We will get more feedback on it before we do anything further - correct?
15:27:23 [Jennie]
David F: yes
15:27:41 [Jennie]
Lisa: The next one we are discussing is icon 4
15:27:54 [Jennie]
...The commenter said he preferred the original one
15:28:04 [Jennie]
...It was a pie graph and a chart
15:28:14 [Jennie]
...He suggested it might be easier if the pie chart had color
15:28:29 [Jennie]
...Should we take a quick poll - do you prefer the new one or the old one
15:28:47 [LisaSeemanKest]
new(3) or old(pie and graph)
15:28:52 [LisaSeemanKest]
15:29:01 [LisaSeemanKest]
15:29:04 [Roy]
15:29:05 [JustineP]
0 - torn between the two
15:29:37 [Jennie]
Lisa: We had person in the comments saying they didn't like the original, now we have someone saying they prefer the original
15:30:08 [Jennie]
...I think we will leave it with the current consensus
15:30:26 [Jennie]
...Now we are looking at the icon for 5 Help users avoid mistakes
15:30:26 [JustineP]
15:30:28 [JustineP]
15:30:35 [LisaSeemanKest]
ack j
15:30:38 [LisaSeemanKest]
15:30:48 [Jennie]
Justine: I'm concerned that if we add anything we will have extra clutter and that may impact people with low vision
15:30:52 [Jennie]
Lisa: I agree
15:31:20 [Jennie]
...Moving to Icon 7 - the image with an index finger with a bow on it
15:31:39 [Jennie]
...there is also one with a head with a disk inside the head
15:32:03 [Jennie]
...Internationalization may mean it is not understood, not just if it offends people
15:32:07 [Jennie]
...I like the reminder
15:32:30 [Jennie]
...This is images suggesting memory, not reminders exactly
15:32:42 [Jennie]
...We could look for another idea, we could go with the original one
15:32:47 [LisaSeemanKest]
what do we want to do
15:32:50 [Jennie]
...It is not offending anyone
15:32:51 [LisaSeemanKest]
first draft
15:33:31 [LisaSeemanKest]
jennie - other options
15:33:47 [Jennie]
Lisa: Anyone else think we should look for other options?
15:33:50 [krisannekinney]
15:34:14 [Jennie]
Kris Anne: I know that there is a lot of work being done on icons
15:34:34 [Jennie]
...I will reach out to Shawn Henry to find out where those are - they have a head with a brain
15:34:39 [Jennie]
...I'm wondering if that might work
15:34:44 [Jennie]
Lisa: It might
15:34:54 [Jennie]
...This is for ensuring processes don't rely on memory
15:35:00 [Jennie]
...I don't know if memory is the right icon
15:35:09 [Jennie]
...It is also cognitive accessibility
15:35:23 [Jennie]
...If using a WAI icon that means cognitive, but this is specific, it may be the wrong association
15:35:28 [Jennie]
Kris Anne: OK, that's fine
15:35:31 [Jennie]
15:35:36 [krisannekinney]
ack me
15:35:41 [LisaSeemanKest]
ack j
15:35:52 [LisaSeemanKest]
jenie: ask ea
15:36:25 [Jennie]
Lisa: I think the action is to ask on the list for ideas for this symbol
15:36:43 [Jennie]
...If we don't have any by next week, we can ask the person who commented if they have a suggestion
15:36:58 [Jennie]
15:37:04 [JustineP]
15:37:19 [krisannekinney]
15:37:21 [Jennie]
Lisa: OK I will post this to the list
15:37:26 [LisaSeemanKest]
zakim, next item
15:37:27 [Zakim]
agendum 4 -- issue 141 maths -- taken up [from LisaSeemanKest]
15:38:04 [Jennie]
Justine: An individual submitted an issue and felt that using the abbreviated term math can be confused for being a noun or a verb
15:38:23 [Jennie]
...We explored using math, or if it would be preferred to use mathematical or mathmatics
15:38:35 [Jennie]
...I spoke with John Rochford and he felt that using math was preferred
15:38:57 [Jennie]
...I think to address this concern we can put, after the first instance in the document, information to clarify the meaning
15:39:03 [Fazio]
15:39:05 [Jennie]
...I sent a suggestion to the list with that recommendation
15:39:06 [LisaSeemanKest]
15:39:08 [Jennie]
15:39:23 [JustineP]
15:39:24 [krisannekinney]
15:39:31 [Jennie]
David F: I think that follows standard best practice
15:40:07 [LisaSeemanKest]
15:40:10 [Jennie]
Lisa: We have a document with the list of edits that still need to be done
15:40:17 [LisaSeemanKest]
justien add it to the todo list at
15:40:28 [Jennie]
Justine: That sounds fine to me, and I will close out the issue and send a reply
15:40:31 [Jennie]
Lisa: great!
15:40:38 [LisaSeemanKest]
zakim, next item
15:40:38 [Zakim]
agendum 5 -- issue 144 - adding benigits to AAC -- taken up [from LisaSeemanKest]
15:41:20 [LisaSeemanKest]
scribe: lisaseemankest
15:41:30 [LisaSeemanKest]
it is about 143!
15:41:51 [LisaSeemanKest]
Object permanence. and Motor automaticity
15:42:21 [LisaSeemanKest]
15:42:32 [LisaSeemanKest]
proposal at
15:42:51 [LisaSeemanKest]
15:43:14 [Jennie]
Lisa: you said next draft and I think you version
15:43:17 [Jennie]
I can do that
15:43:44 [Jennie]
Lisa: I think adding a sentence saying we can add some clarification to 4.2.3 and 4.3.4 and I put it in the editors' to do list
15:43:50 [LisaSeemanKest]
4.2.3 (before “This pattern helps by:”)
15:43:50 [LisaSeemanKest]
Using a standard Visual layout, and consistently positioning elements consistently will help user rely on muscle memory to use them.
15:43:51 [LisaSeemanKest]
Add and in”use”
15:43:52 [LisaSeemanKest]
Element are consistently positioned across pages
15:43:52 [Jennie]
...We can add some clarifications
15:43:53 [LisaSeemanKest]
4.3.4: Add: Many uses will not find content by paging through different screens
15:43:54 [LisaSeemanKest]
6.2.1 Amy Scenario 1: Add
15:43:54 [LisaSeemanKest]
Amy copes best when important elements are consistently positioned where she can see them. She can focus on the actual content and not finding things.
15:44:01 [Jennie]
...Very small commets
15:44:04 [Fazio]
15:44:23 [Jennie]
...We can say adding into 4.2.3 into how it helps (reads from text above)
15:44:34 [Jennie]
...using word for word what they say
15:44:51 [Jennie]
...And in 4.3.4 (reads from text above)
15:45:21 [Jennie]
...I thought we could add to Amy's story (reads from above)
15:46:27 [LisaSeemanKest]
15:46:33 [LisaSeemanKest]
ack d
15:46:34 [Jennie]
David F: I'm all for adding the concepts we need, but in regards to automaticity is this part of the scope of what we are doing
15:46:44 [Jennie]
...We are talking about cognitive situations
15:47:01 [Jennie]
...Seems like we are opening the door for other scenarios that are not related
15:47:42 [LisaSeemanKest]
scribe: lisaseemankest
15:48:00 [Jennie]
scribe: Jennie
15:48:17 [Jennie]
It is a concept well researched in regards to AAC and it does line up with being included
15:48:34 [Jennie]
Lisa: I think we add some clarification for how it helps and add more in a future version
15:48:40 [Jennie]
...This first part is just editorial
15:48:51 [Jennie]
...And then David we could discuss this for future versions
15:50:19 [LisaSeemanKest]
scribe: lisaseemankest
15:50:38 [LisaSeemanKest]
if the group is ok i am
15:50:44 [LisaSeemanKest]
15:50:59 [LisaSeemanKest]
scribe: Jennie
15:51:21 [Jennie]
Straw poll #1: are you ok with the responses including the examples from the current document
15:51:44 [LisaSeemanKest]
15:52:05 [LisaSeemanKest]
scrtch that
15:52:20 [LisaSeemanKest]
15:52:34 [LisaSeemanKest]
Just example +1
15:53:40 [Jennie]
Lisa: many write an email to the list and have people vote
15:53:45 [Fazio]
15:53:47 [Jennie]
...Would people prefer this?
15:55:05 [Jennie]
Lisa: Maybe we can close this one on the list. Is everyone ok with that?
15:55:35 [LisaSeemanKest]
zakim, next item
15:55:35 [Zakim]
I see a speaker queue remaining and respectfully decline to close this agendum, LisaSeemanKest
15:55:39 [LisaSeemanKest]
15:55:46 [LisaSeemanKest]
ack l
15:55:49 [LisaSeemanKest]
ack f
15:55:53 [LisaSeemanKest]
zakim, next item
15:55:53 [Zakim]
agendum 6 -- expand and colupse see -- taken up [from LisaSeemanKest]
15:56:12 [Jennie]
Lisa: OK we will try to resolve that one more on the list (referencing previous item)
15:56:22 [Jennie]
...(discussing agenda item 6)
15:56:42 [Jennie]
...They want a table in each section from the appendix
15:56:49 [Jennie]
...they found the tables very useful
15:57:19 [Jennie]
...Roy was able to add a more details element which could expand
15:57:36 [Jennie]
...we could put the table in this details section which can expand
15:57:56 [stevelee]
15:58:01 [Jennie]
...For the plain language summary of the document, just after the table of contents
15:58:24 [Jennie]
Steve: I like the plain language summary because it is short and concise - a quick overview
15:58:55 [Jennie]
...putting the details in removes some of this. The personas will help, but the tables may be more than you normally see in the summary
15:59:02 [Jennie]
Lisa: Does anyone want the mapping in it?
15:59:06 [LisaSeemanKest]
15:59:06 [Fazio]
Agree with Steve
15:59:11 [stevelee]
15:59:11 [Jennie]
...-1 if you don't want the mapping in
15:59:16 [krisannekinney]
15:59:20 [Jennie]
Lisa: OK we don't want the mapping
15:59:35 [Jennie]
...Do we want the details which expand
15:59:44 [Jennie]
...and maybe add a link to the tables
15:59:53 [LisaSeemanKest]
See also: user needs, design patterns and user testing for objective 1 and persona mapping.
16:00:15 [Jennie]
Steve: I prefer that
16:00:26 [Jennie]
...We have user needs in each one
16:00:40 [Jennie]
Lisa: so we don't need to link to the mappings?
16:00:52 [Jennie]
Lisa: Do we want this sentence in a pop up details?
16:01:00 [Jennie]
Steve: I think plain text at the top
16:01:08 [Jennie]
Lisa: Does anyone want it in pop up details?
16:01:19 [Jennie]
...I am not hearing anyone liking it
16:01:19 [LisaSeemanKest]
16:01:21 [LisaSeemanKest]
16:01:29 [LisaSeemanKest]
steve -1
16:01:30 [Fazio]
16:01:39 [Jennie]
16:02:03 [Jennie]
David F: will anyone have problems with pop up blockers?
16:02:07 [Jennie]
Steve: it is more of an expand
16:02:24 [krisannekinney]
16:02:27 [Jennie]
*Lisa - I have to drop off - can you wrap up the minutes?
16:03:50 [LisaSeemanKest]
rrsagent, publish minutes
16:03:50 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate LisaSeemanKest