14:03:25 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #coga
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14:03:27 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
14:03:30 <trackbot> Meeting: Cognitive and Learning Disabilities Accessibility Task Force Teleconference
14:03:30 <trackbot> Date: 21 January 2021
14:05:52 <LisaSeemanKest> agenda+ actions https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/task-forces/coga/wiki/PlanningPage#group_actions_.2Ftodo_for_next_publication
14:05:58 <LisaSeemanKest> agenda?
14:06:12 <LisaSeemanKest> clear agenda
14:06:16 <LisaSeemanKest> agenda+ actions https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/task-forces/coga/wiki/PlanningPage#group_actions_.2Ftodo_for_next_publication
14:06:34 <LisaSeemanKest> agenda+ set calls for editorial review
14:07:10 <LisaSeemanKest> agenda+ images update and icons. See  ocns at https://docs.google.com/document/d/1aRoYev1aAIHhIq37Itt96ueBwLh5zXMUeJBYxL0MCkQ/edit#
14:12:26 <LisaSeemanKest> agenda+ issue 141 maths https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-cognitive-a11y-tf/2021Jan/0043.html
14:23:14 <LisaSeemanKest> agenda+ issue 144 - adding benigits to AAC https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-cognitive-a11y-tf/2021Jan/0038.html
14:54:08 <LisaSeemanKest> agenda?
14:55:56 <Fazio> Fazio has joined #coga
14:57:20 <stevelee> present+
14:59:39 <Jennie> Jennie has joined #coga
14:59:43 <Jennie> present+
15:01:02 <LisaSeemanKest> present+
15:02:08 <JustineP> JustineP has joined #coga
15:02:26 <JustineP> present+
15:02:56 <Jennie> scribe: Jennie
15:02:58 <LisaSeemanKest> scribe: Jennie
15:03:12 <LisaSeemanKest> zakim, next item
15:03:12 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- actions https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/task-forces/coga/wiki/PlanningPage#group_actions_.2Ftodo_for_next_publication -- taken up [from LisaSeemanKest]
15:04:07 <LisaSeemanKest> jennie - images going well!
15:04:23 <Fazio> present+
15:04:53 <Jennie> I am also moving forward on the issues
15:05:05 <krisannekinney> krisannekinney has joined #coga
15:05:39 <Jennie> Lisa: Justine has been working on issues, and we will talk about the icons in a later item
15:05:50 <Jennie> Justine: I have been breaking some of the larger issues into subissues
15:05:56 <Jennie> Lisa: Which one?
15:06:05 <Jennie> Justine: Issue #163
15:06:13 <Jennie> Lisa: That's a new one
15:06:37 <Jennie> ...This came in a while ago
15:06:55 <Jennie> Justine: It is listed on our tracker in row 80, and says to break it into sub topics, so I took on that action
15:07:04 <Jennie> Lisa: Have you started doing it yet?
15:07:11 <Jennie> Justine: I have completed issue 9
15:07:20 <Jennie> ...I am breaking them out in the COGA issue tracker
15:07:32 <Jennie> ...In the Google Spreadsheet
15:08:17 <Jennie> Lisa: Normally when there are 3 or 5 issues, they are done by one person, but this one is quite big.
15:08:27 <Jennie> ...OK. Maybe also send an email to Rachael that you are doing it
15:08:37 <Jennie> ...She may have broken it up already in the Google doc
15:08:53 <Jennie> Justine: OK. I did send Rachael an email. I'm just waiting to hear back from her.
15:09:19 <Jennie> Lisa: OK I think we should have a call if possible so we are all on the same page.
15:09:39 <Jennie> ...or at least an email thread. Can you add Jennie and I to that email thread so we are all in agreement?
15:09:41 <Jennie> Justine: yes
15:09:54 <Jennie> Lisa: David was going to speak with Autism Speaks
15:10:21 <Jennie> David F: I reached out to some groups, but am having some difficulty reaching the groups. And I was reluctant to speak to one of the groups.
15:10:40 <Jennie> ...I reached out to my contacts at work, and asked them to reach out to the organizations they work with
15:10:51 <Jennie> ...I also reached out to another group, and will follow up with them
15:11:02 <Jennie> ...I have not heard back from anyone just yet.
15:11:18 <Jennie> Lisa: Can we ask you to be a bit more aggressive and get responses from more people
15:11:37 <Jennie> David F: I did an online poll, and got about 50 responses, but it is a mixed group of people.
15:11:43 <Jennie> ....Interesting, it is about 50/50
15:11:51 <Jennie> Lisa: Is that on your LinkedIn?
15:11:54 <Jennie> David F: yes
15:12:03 <Jennie> Lisa: Then we can all look at the responses there.
15:12:12 <Jennie> David F: It is a passionate conversation
15:12:29 <Jennie> Lisa: I think it is reasonable for us to say we are more interested in responses from people with autism
15:12:37 <Jennie> David F: that's what I tried to do
15:13:03 <Jennie> Lisa: If you write up a conclusion to the list based on the results
15:13:13 <Jennie> David F: The people that don't have a disability always say person first
15:13:24 <Jennie> ...The people with autism - identify first appears to be the preference
15:13:33 <Jennie> Lisa: If that can go into an email and we have that on record
15:13:58 <Jennie> David F: Give me another week and I can get more concrete information
15:14:00 <Jennie> Lisa: OK
15:14:12 <Jennie> ...For E.A.'s item I will send her an email
15:14:30 <Jennie> ...Roy has merged part 1 into the git and done some other things
15:14:40 <Jennie> Roy: I did a pull request and asked for a request from you and Rachael
15:14:52 <Roy> https://github.com/w3c/coga/pull/230
15:15:05 <Jennie> Lisa: Do you have the rawgit?
15:15:19 <Jennie> Roy: yes but I also created a demo to show the collapse and expand
15:15:35 <Jennie> ...also the Part 1
15:15:38 <Roy> https://raw.githack.com/w3c/coga/expand-demo/content-usable/index.html#summary
15:15:42 <Jennie> ...The pull request does not include the demo
15:15:58 <LisaSeemanKest> agenda+ expand and colupse see https://raw.githack.com/w3c/coga/expand-demo/content-usable/index.html#summary
15:16:03 <Jennie> ...the demo is under the summary
15:16:15 <Fazio> Here's the link to my LinkedIn Poll on Person 1st language regarding Autism https://www.linkedin.com/posts/julianna-rowsell-86625624_autism-cognitive-autistic-activity-6757703302181380096-Uiee
15:16:24 <Jennie> Roy: On the demo, if it is ok, I will implement in all of the document
15:16:33 <Jennie> Lisa: I got through most of my edit, but I have more to do
15:16:43 <Jennie> ...I also have some issues to read through
15:16:49 <Jennie> ...Rachael has a couple of items as well
15:16:50 <LisaSeemanKest> zakim, next item
15:16:50 <Zakim> I see a speaker queue remaining and respectfully decline to close this agendum, LisaSeemanKest
15:16:54 <LisaSeemanKest> q?
15:17:01 <LisaSeemanKest> ack s
15:17:04 <LisaSeemanKest> ack r
15:17:10 <LisaSeemanKest> regrets ea, rachael\
15:17:15 <LisaSeemanKest> zakim, next item
15:17:15 <Zakim> agendum 2 -- set calls for editorial review -- taken up [from LisaSeemanKest]
15:17:26 <Jennie> Lisa: We have a lot of editorial work to complete
15:18:12 <Jennie> ...Steve - could you email me as to when it is good for us to get to more editorial work?
15:18:22 <LisaSeemanKest> zakim, next item
15:18:22 <Zakim> agendum 3 -- images update and icons. See  ocns at https://docs.google.com/document/d/1aRoYev1aAIHhIq37Itt96ueBwLh5zXMUeJBYxL0MCkQ/edit# -- taken up [from LisaSeemanKest]
15:18:43 <Jennie> Lisa: the images - we are running late
15:19:16 <Jennie> I can report on the schedule/timeline next week
15:19:25 <Jennie> Lisa: If you want to send this to the list earlier that works too
15:19:27 <Jennie> Will do!
15:19:42 <Jennie> Lisa: We had some feedback in regards to the icons from the internationalization group
15:19:46 <LisaSeemanKest> icon review: https://github.com/w3c/coga/issues/231
15:19:50 <Jennie> ...this is a link to the issue
15:19:56 <Jennie> ...where they had some comments
15:20:01 <LisaSeemanKest> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1aRoYev1aAIHhIq37Itt96ueBwLh5zXMUeJBYxL0MCkQ/edit#
15:20:11 <Jennie> ...this is a link to different icons we have been working on
15:20:32 <Jennie> ...for icon 1: they said that in Japan (I think) they found the meaning confusing
15:20:47 <Jennie> ...circle means correct, and a checkmark in some places means incorrect
15:21:07 <Jennie> ...I don't know if we want to rereview the icon, or if it can be considered close enough
15:21:57 <Jennie> Roy: In China we don't have specific meanings - maybe I should try to do some research on this for China and Japan and then tell you
15:22:11 <Jennie> Lisa: To you it looks like checkboxes and radio buttons?
15:22:29 <Jennie> Roy: It looks good to me, but I am not sure if it is ok for Chinese or Japanese people
15:22:37 <Jennie> Lisa: I think we were more worried about offending people
15:22:57 <Jennie> ...The comments were from R12A
15:23:18 <Jennie> David F: We have a translator for the accessibility guidelines working group - I can send this to him to have him review it
15:23:29 <Jennie> Lisa: That would be fantastic
15:24:00 <Jennie> Roy: I think Richard is the commenter and his wife is Japanese so he is familiar with Japanese culture
15:24:29 <Jennie> Lisa: He wrote checkmark - in some Asian cultures means different things
15:24:41 <Jennie> ...But our new icon is clearer - I think we just need more feedback on the new icon
15:24:48 <Jennie> ...The new one from last week
15:25:36 <Jennie> ...idea 2.2 is next to it
15:25:52 <Jennie> ...It is a square and a circle to the left, another to the right
15:27:08 <Jennie> ...It should be a bit clearer
15:27:21 <Jennie> ...We will get more feedback on it before we do anything further - correct?
15:27:23 <Jennie> David F: yes
15:27:41 <Jennie> Lisa: The next one we are discussing is icon 4
15:27:54 <Jennie> ...The commenter said he preferred the original one
15:28:04 <Jennie> ...It was a pie graph and a chart
15:28:14 <Jennie> ...He suggested it might be easier if the pie chart had color
15:28:29 <Jennie> ...Should we take a quick poll - do you prefer the new one or the old one
15:28:47 <LisaSeemanKest> new(3) or old(pie and graph)
15:28:52 <LisaSeemanKest> 0
15:29:01 <LisaSeemanKest> q?
15:29:04 <Roy> 0
15:29:05 <JustineP> 0 - torn between the two
15:29:37 <Jennie> Lisa: We had person in the comments saying they didn't like the original, now we have someone saying they prefer the original
15:30:08 <Jennie> ...I think we will leave it with the current consensus
15:30:26 <Jennie> ...Now we are looking at the icon for 5 Help users avoid mistakes
15:30:26 <JustineP> q
15:30:28 <JustineP> q+
15:30:35 <LisaSeemanKest> ack j
15:30:38 <LisaSeemanKest> agree
15:30:48 <Jennie> Justine: I'm concerned that if we add anything we will have extra clutter and that may impact people with low vision
15:30:52 <Jennie> Lisa: I agree
15:31:20 <Jennie> ...Moving to Icon 7 - the image with an index finger with a bow on it
15:31:39 <Jennie> ...there is also one with a head with a disk inside the head
15:32:03 <Jennie> ...Internationalization may mean it is not understood, not just if it offends people
15:32:07 <Jennie> ...I like the reminder
15:32:30 <Jennie> ...This is images suggesting memory, not reminders exactly
15:32:42 <Jennie> ...We could look for another idea, we could go with the original one
15:32:47 <LisaSeemanKest> what do we want to do
15:32:50 <Jennie> ...It is not offending anyone
15:32:51 <LisaSeemanKest> first draft
15:33:31 <LisaSeemanKest> jennie - other options
15:33:47 <Jennie> Lisa: Anyone else think we should look for other options?
15:33:50 <krisannekinney> q+
15:34:14 <Jennie> Kris Anne: I know that there is a lot of work being done on icons
15:34:34 <Jennie> ...I will reach out to Shawn Henry to find out where those are - they have a head with a brain
15:34:39 <Jennie> ...I'm wondering if that might work
15:34:44 <Jennie> Lisa: It might
15:34:54 <Jennie> ...This is for ensuring processes don't rely on memory
15:35:00 <Jennie> ...I don't know if memory is the right icon
15:35:09 <Jennie> ...It is also cognitive accessibility
15:35:23 <Jennie> ...If using a WAI icon that means cognitive, but this is specific, it may be the wrong association
15:35:28 <Jennie> Kris Anne: OK, that's fine
15:35:31 <Jennie> q+
15:35:36 <krisannekinney> ack me
15:35:41 <LisaSeemanKest> ack j
15:35:52 <LisaSeemanKest> jenie: ask ea
15:36:25 <Jennie> Lisa: I think the action is to ask on the list for ideas for this symbol
15:36:43 <Jennie> ...If we don't have any by next week, we can ask the person who commented if they have a suggestion
15:36:58 <Jennie> +1
15:37:04 <JustineP> +1
15:37:19 <krisannekinney> +1
15:37:21 <Jennie> Lisa: OK I will post this to the list
15:37:26 <LisaSeemanKest> zakim, next item
15:37:27 <Zakim> agendum 4 -- issue 141 maths https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-cognitive-a11y-tf/2021Jan/0043.html -- taken up [from LisaSeemanKest]
15:38:04 <Jennie> Justine: An individual submitted an issue and felt that using the abbreviated term math can be confused for being a noun or a verb
15:38:23 <Jennie> ...We explored using math, or if it would be preferred to use mathematical or mathmatics
15:38:35 <Jennie> ...I spoke with John Rochford and he felt that using math was preferred
15:38:57 <Jennie> ...I think to address this concern we can put, after the first instance in the document, information to clarify the meaning
15:39:03 <Fazio> +1
15:39:05 <Jennie> ...I sent a suggestion to the list with that recommendation
15:39:06 <LisaSeemanKest> +1
15:39:08 <Jennie> +1
15:39:23 <JustineP> +1
15:39:24 <krisannekinney> +1
15:39:31 <Jennie> David F: I think that follows standard best practice
15:40:07 <LisaSeemanKest> justing
15:40:10 <Jennie> Lisa: We have a document with the list of edits that still need to be done
15:40:17 <LisaSeemanKest> justien add it to the todo list at https://docs.google.com/document/d/1l5xiuYG2IYBP7vgS5FSzOPJ1NtJdPRSckpY6tt3n9IE/edit#
15:40:28 <Jennie> Justine: That sounds fine to me, and I will close out the issue and send a reply
15:40:31 <Jennie> Lisa: great!
15:40:38 <LisaSeemanKest> zakim, next item
15:40:38 <Zakim> agendum 5 -- issue 144 - adding benigits to AAC https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-cognitive-a11y-tf/2021Jan/0038.html -- taken up [from LisaSeemanKest]
15:41:20 <LisaSeemanKest> scribe: lisaseemankest
15:41:30 <LisaSeemanKest> it is about 143!
15:41:51 <LisaSeemanKest> Object permanence. and Motor automaticity
15:42:21 <LisaSeemanKest> q+
15:42:32 <LisaSeemanKest> proposal at https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-cognitive-a11y-tf/2021Jan/0038.html
15:42:51 <LisaSeemanKest> lisa:
15:43:14 <Jennie> Lisa: you said next draft and I think you version
15:43:17 <Jennie> I can do that
15:43:44 <Jennie> Lisa: I think adding a sentence saying we can add some clarification to 4.2.3 and 4.3.4 and I put it in the editors' to do list
15:43:50 <LisaSeemanKest> 4.2.3  (before “This pattern helps by:”)
15:43:50 <LisaSeemanKest> Using a standard Visual layout, and consistently positioning elements consistently will help user rely on muscle memory to use them.
15:43:51 <LisaSeemanKest> Add and  in”use”
15:43:52 <LisaSeemanKest> Element  are consistently positioned across pages
15:43:52 <Jennie> ...We can add some clarifications
15:43:53 <LisaSeemanKest> 4.3.4: Add:  Many uses will not find content by paging through different screens
15:43:54 <LisaSeemanKest> 6.2.1 Amy Scenario 1: Add
15:43:54 <LisaSeemanKest> Amy copes best when important  elements are consistently positioned where she can see them. She can focus on the actual content and not finding things.
15:44:01 <Jennie> ...Very small commets
15:44:04 <Fazio> q+
15:44:23 <Jennie> ...We can say adding into 4.2.3 into how it helps (reads from text above)
15:44:34 <Jennie> ...using word for word what they say
15:44:51 <Jennie> ...And in 4.3.4 (reads from text above)
15:45:21 <Jennie> ...I thought we could add to Amy's story (reads from above)
15:46:27 <LisaSeemanKest> q+
15:46:33 <LisaSeemanKest> ack d
15:46:34 <Jennie> David F: I'm all for adding the concepts we need, but in regards to automaticity is this part of the scope of what we are doing
15:46:44 <Jennie> ...We are talking about cognitive situations
15:47:01 <Jennie> ...Seems like we are opening the door for other scenarios that are not related
15:47:42 <LisaSeemanKest> scribe: lisaseemankest
15:48:00 <Jennie> scribe: Jennie
15:48:17 <Jennie> It is a concept well researched in regards to AAC and it does line up with being included
15:48:34 <Jennie> Lisa: I think we add some clarification for how it helps and add more in a future version
15:48:40 <Jennie> ...This first part is just editorial
15:48:51 <Jennie> ...And then David we could discuss this for future versions
15:50:19 <LisaSeemanKest> scribe: lisaseemankest
15:50:38 <LisaSeemanKest> if the group is ok i am
15:50:44 <LisaSeemanKest> (jenny
15:50:59 <LisaSeemanKest> scribe: Jennie
15:51:21 <Jennie> Straw poll #1: are you ok with the responses including the examples from the current document
15:51:44 <LisaSeemanKest> +1
15:52:05 <LisaSeemanKest> scrtch that
15:52:20 <LisaSeemanKest> -1
15:52:34 <LisaSeemanKest> Just example +1
15:53:40 <Jennie> Lisa: many write an email to the list and have people vote
15:53:45 <Fazio> yes
15:53:47 <Jennie> ...Would people prefer this?
15:55:05 <Jennie> Lisa: Maybe we can close this one on the list. Is everyone ok with that?
15:55:35 <LisaSeemanKest> zakim, next item
15:55:35 <Zakim> I see a speaker queue remaining and respectfully decline to close this agendum, LisaSeemanKest
15:55:39 <LisaSeemanKest> q?
15:55:46 <LisaSeemanKest> ack l
15:55:49 <LisaSeemanKest> ack f
15:55:53 <LisaSeemanKest> zakim, next item
15:55:53 <Zakim> agendum 6 -- expand and colupse see https://raw.githack.com/w3c/coga/expand-demo/content-usable/index.html#summary -- taken up [from LisaSeemanKest]
15:56:12 <Jennie> Lisa: OK we will try to resolve that one more on the list (referencing previous item)
15:56:22 <Jennie> ...(discussing agenda item 6)
15:56:42 <Jennie> ...They want a table in each section from the appendix
15:56:49 <Jennie> ...they found the tables very useful
15:57:19 <Jennie> ...Roy was able to add a more details element which could expand
15:57:36 <Jennie> ...we could put the table in this details section which can expand
15:57:56 <stevelee> q+
15:58:01 <Jennie> ...For the plain language summary of the document, just after the table of contents
15:58:24 <Jennie> Steve: I like the plain language summary because it is short and concise - a quick overview
15:58:55 <Jennie> ...putting the details in removes some of this. The personas will help, but the tables may be more than you normally see in the summary
15:59:02 <Jennie> Lisa: Does anyone want the mapping in it?
15:59:06 <LisaSeemanKest> -1
15:59:06 <Fazio> Agree with Steve
15:59:11 <stevelee> -1
15:59:11 <Jennie> ...-1 if you don't want the mapping in
15:59:16 <krisannekinney> -1
15:59:20 <Jennie> Lisa: OK we don't want the mapping
15:59:35 <Jennie> ...Do we want the details which expand
15:59:44 <Jennie> ...and maybe add a link to the tables
15:59:53 <LisaSeemanKest> See also: user needs, design patterns and user testing for objective 1 and persona mapping.
16:00:15 <Jennie> Steve: I prefer that
16:00:26 <Jennie> ...We have user needs in each one
16:00:40 <Jennie> Lisa: so we don't need to link to the mappings?
16:00:52 <Jennie> Lisa: Do we want this sentence in a pop up details?
16:01:00 <Jennie> Steve: I think plain text at the top
16:01:08 <Jennie> Lisa: Does anyone want it in pop up details?
16:01:19 <Jennie> ...I am not hearing anyone liking it
16:01:19 <LisaSeemanKest> details
16:01:21 <LisaSeemanKest> 0
16:01:29 <LisaSeemanKest> steve -1
16:01:30 <Fazio> 0
16:01:39 <Jennie> 0
16:02:03 <Jennie> David F: will anyone have problems with pop up blockers?
16:02:07 <Jennie> Steve: it is more of an expand
16:02:24 <krisannekinney> 0
16:02:27 <Jennie> *Lisa - I have to drop off - can you wrap up the minutes?
16:03:50 <LisaSeemanKest> rrsagent, publish minutes
16:03:50 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/01/21-coga-minutes.html LisaSeemanKest