W3C

– DRAFT –
Cognitive and Learning Disabilities Accessibility Task Force Teleconference

07 January 2021

Attendees

Present
Jennie, JohnRochford, JustineP, LisaSeemanKest, Roy
Regrets
Abi, David, John k
Chair
-
Scribe
jennie

Meeting minutes

<LisaSeemanKest> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1l5xiuYG2IYBP7vgS5FSzOPJ1NtJdPRSckpY6tt3n9IE/edit#

actions and group actions: https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/task-forces/coga/wiki/PlanningPage#Timelines_and_actions

Lisa: I have updated this to make it easier to find your items.

No progress to report in December for the image subgroup.

Lisa: I think we are aiming for a month.

Lisa: If images can be completed in the next 3-4 weeks. What is the backup plan?
… Maybe post about it and if people have not volunteered and committed in 3 weeks, we will need a different approach.

John K and I can work with our contacts to see if this is realistic given current work loads, and then we can make a different plan if it does not.

Lisa: Then we can revisit next week.

Rachael: I agree.

Lisa: There are changes Abi was going to make.
… We just went through some personas on a previous call.

Lisa: Rachael is working with Roy

(scribe missed the rest of this)

Lisa: Roy - will you have time to work on the other items?

Roy: I noticed I have Google orientation later.

Lisa: We also have how the WAI patterns are displayed.
… Some felt it was too repetitive

Rachael: That is what the 1st bullet for Roy refers to
… We would make changes to patterns to get the words "User Story" and move it to the end, and the word "Pattern" and move it to the end

Lisa: It is on the list in the planning page

Roy: yes

Lisa: The next one - the user stories in Appendix A
… To link the patterns to the correct patterns. Some of the names have changed slightly, so this will need to be checked.
… There are also style wrapping issues.
… The last one for EO comments - they want in the summary page, after each objective, put related patterns so they are directly linked.
… To user stories.
… And the testing section
… Is that ok Roy?

Roy: We are looking at the actions, and I will send a question if I have them

Lisa: I have done final edit review.
… All except the objectives
… There were some issues with the scenarios
… I was only doing the final edits.
… There were problems with the personas. EA is doing that. Also the consensus language.
… Rachael has some here.

Rachael: the 1st one is done, the 2nd is related to Roy's. And we talked to Michael about it and he is against the heading in the document be different than the heading in the table of contents.
… We need something that will work in both places.

Lisa: Can we add that to the agenda?

Rachael: That would be great.
… The 3rd one is done.

Lisa: Next is checking what we need to do for the next publication.
… We have a lot more issues than we were anticipating.
… We are going over the issues.
… Justine and Jennie have offered to take some of these on.
… Rachael, EA and myself will go through the editorial issues.
… We need to go through the changes we have.
… The icons and the images, discuss EO comments.
… We also have additional comments from this group, lower on the page.
… Does that wrap our heads around what we have to do for the next publication?

Justine: that sounds fine to me.

Lisa: Normally we would start the new year staring with what we want to achieve.
… If it is ok with everyone, I think we should push this off a few weeks until after we have this document going forward.

+1

<Rachael> +1

<JustineP> +1

<EA> +1

aprove or disscuss: merging apendisis with new title https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-cognitive-a11y-tf/2021Jan/0012.html

Lisa: the only thing we need to discuss is what the title would be.
… Steve liked the idea but had a different suggestion for the title.
… +1 for merging it.

<JustineP> +1

<LisaSeemanKest> +1

<Rachael> +1 for merge

<EA> +1 to merge

abstain - didn't have time to review. OK with what the group says

Resolution: Merge appendices B and D

Rachael: there was a lot of concern around the word policy
… It is also organization approaches, broader than just government
… I encourage a title that is broader than policy

<LisaSeemanKest> Policy and Business Considerations

Rachael: And that hits all of the content

Rachael: Business and Policy Considerations would be my preference

EA: Abi sent a note, and I sent a note
… Rachael touched on the content. It is more about organization as a whole
… Not having strategies in there, and having business in there - people will think it is about businesses
… And this is not just a business case

<LisaSeemanKest> Organization Considerations and Plocies

Lisa: Should we say Organization Considerations and Policies

EA: There is a business case - including everyone you will make more money

<Rachael> Appendix: Ways to apply this document

Lisa: There are people looking for information about business case

EA: there is more than this, on the policy side

Rachael: 2 suggestions. Make the appendix like "Ways to apply this document"
… And we could move this to the list, and approve titles

Lisa: Yes. I think "Ways to apply this document" is too similar to another
… I think we may need a survey on this

<Rachael> Jennie: Whenever I look at headings and table of contents and organization structure, I find it helpful to view it away from the document. If you make a survey, can you include a list of all the headings and a link to the section being discussed. That may make it eaiser to scope the conversation.

Lisa: I think we will continue the conversation on the list a bit
… this can be done at the last minute as well
… Is that ok with everyone - moving this to the list?

+1

<JustineP> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1aRoYev1aAIHhIq37Itt96ueBwLh5zXMUeJBYxL0MCkQ/edit

Lisa: We had a few discussions
… A cross, an arrow, the tick is for the things to do

<Rachael> I think they look good. Thank you!

Lisa: Any comments?

<LisaSeemanKest> +1 for the first three

Lisa: I will +1 for the first 3

<Rachael> +1

<EA> Tick has a different style compared to arrow

<JustineP> +1

Lisa: Can people put in a +1

+1

*Nice Justine!

EA: they don't look like they come from the same family. I'm wondering if that matters.

Justine: I'm having trouble seeing the style you are mentioning

EA: We look at the way the line is built
… like the lines for the X, and the line that goes to the arrow.
… There is a rounded end for some, but the tick has a different style. It slims down

EA: The same is happening with the multiply sign in the circle. It is a different size than the others.
… This would cause difficulty when I work with some AAC users

Rachael: We also have other icons further down - the tick is consistent with the one further down.

EA: Do you want all the arrow heads to look like the ticks?
… It is just a comment, I am fine with it if you are

Lisa: The question we can put on to the end of the discussion of the icons.
… The 1st question can be about the icons; and then we can work through the style question

EA: Yes

Lisa: So the question is are you happy with them, without the style being considered
… We had 2 or 3 questions about the summary.
… Help users help understand what things are
… We have several options here
… based on discussions

<LisaSeemanKest> +1

Lisa: Question 1: are you happy with the one labeled second draft?

Rachael: I am playing with it, and I think we talked about the circle being a radio button

Rachael: I can make the changes I have in mind

Lisa: You and I can send some emails back and forth, without bothering the artist

Rachael: This is a question to Justine. Would the people you are working with prefer to make the changes themselves?

Justine: I think they would be happy to make the revisions, but would be fine either way.

Michael: I think the changes should be made to the vector version.

Justine: We have access to the vector versions

Rachael: Can you send me the vector version?

Justine: I can send it to you

Lisa: Item 3: help users understand with clear text and images
… I think we approved the 1st draft - is that correct?

Justine: I seem to recall that, but I can't say that with certainty

Lisa: OK we are on to item 4
… There was an issue with culturally it matters which fingers
… I'm really happy with that

<LisaSeemanKest> item 4

<LisaSeemanKest> +1

<Rachael> +1

0

Justine: I do like the new version, yes

John R: I am legally blind, so I am not the best judge of tiny icons.
… I'm with EA - they should be consistent in their presentation

Lisa: OK, so we need a graphic artist to smooth over the differences

John R: The other thing to consider is that these symbols are cultural.
… They may not mean the same thing to others that don't speak English

EA: Are we specifically looking at the 3 fingers one?

Lisa: Yes
… It should be fingers rather than thumbs
… I know what John is referencing
… We would need to be sure it is fit
… It can mean a swearing on oath, ok, and others

Michael: We may want the international group to review

EA: I agree
… the thumb has other cultural problems

Michael: We should assume we cannot predicate all the cultural reactions

Rachael: Can I suggest all icons get reviewed at the end?

Michael: I would suggest not publishing to TR before review

Lisa: OK that is a really important point
… And we should do this before we complete them all

EA: There are sites listing "not so innocent signs"

Lisa: What we could do is have 3 dots

Rachael: That is sound safer.

<Rachael> Jennie: I want to caution dots alone because it means a number of items.

EA: If you do dot dot dot it means you have omitted a word

Lisa: We could do 3 vertically

Rachael: I am thinking about childern's books
… Like 3 animals, or 3 of something, the way we teach children

Lisa: My issue with that is that is not how you represent numbers

<EA> three dots down in Braille is the letter L

Lisa: The Braille set is sometimes used for those that don't understand numbers
… We are choosing a language

Justine: Would 3 check marks be preferable?

EA: You mean 3 ticks?

Justine: yes

EA: we have a 3 tick system for employers

Lisa: What is the Braille sign for 3?

Rachael: It is 2 dots at the top of the 6, which might be confusing

Could we consider changing to use the number 2?

<Rachael> Jennie: What if we change to a different number?

Rachael: What if we step away from a simple number, and do something like 90 degrees, use weather, for example
… Hot, cold, that we could use conceptually instead

Lisa: I use centigrade so 90 degrees won't make sense

* ice cube = person shivering?

Rachael: it is cold for everyone at zero I believe
… Sounds like we need more brainstorm on this

Lisa: I agree. Before we bother Justine's group, let's make some awful equivalencies, and find a concept we can agree on

+1

<EA> The noun project has some ideas for draft https://thenounproject.com/search/?q=draft

<JustineP> +1

Lisa: 5 we have agreed on already
… 6 we have a light shining

<LisaSeemanKest> +1

<Rachael> +1

+1 as long as it has enough size/magnifies well

<JustineP> +1

Lisa: 7 has passed. 8 is not being replaced. 9 we like

Lisa: we have a few remaining items on the agenda

<Rachael> +1 to a round of cleanup/consistency

Lisa: Shall we ask the graphic artist at the end to make them all look the same?
… but we will see how we are doing with time

Rachael: If we put the temporary one in while we go through the clean up process, would that work?

Michael: As long as we put something in place so we don't forget

<LisaSeemanKest> +1 to a round of cleanup/consistency

Rachael: I think it is reasonable

Lisa: Any objections?

EA: How are we saying thank you to the graphic designers?

Lisa: We are going to put them in the list of contributors
… and we should thank you as well. Justine - a suggestion?

Justine: I think that is fine. I want to check with the graphic artists to ensure they are comfortable with that

EA: Please do pass along thanks from us

Rachael: in Content Usable there are 2 heading structures

<Rachael> User Story: Findable

<Rachael> Pattern: ....

Rachael: Every User story starts with "User Story"...and we got a suggestion that this makes it harder to read.

<Rachael> Findable (User Story)

Rachael: Michael felt that having them different is a problem

Michael: On my end I need to think about that
… My worry is if you follow something in the table of contents
… it may be difficult
… For silver, I gave a heading with icons like that, but a visual icon gives guidance.

<Rachael> Jennie: I know we get comments from people on state documents when the link text name doesn't match where it goes. I'm looking at other WCAG docs. There is one where things should be consistently identified. If we don't make them consistent, we aren't walking the walk

Lisa: A counter position: our table of contents is quite long
… Especially if you enlarge the font
… If you scroll down, you could easily see the pattern names
… The same for the user stories
… Having pattern 1, and user story 1
… I was ok with moving pattern to the end of it

<LisaSeemanKest> acj me

Lisa: but taking the pattern out all together loses everyone

Rachael: I would suggest a straw poll

<Rachael> ack: Rachael

<Rachael> Jennie: Is another option is to keep the number, put the user story first.

<Rachael> I think the suggestion is 3.2.1 Findable (User Story)

<Rachael> 4.2.4 (Use a consistent visual design (Pattern)

<Rachael> Jennie: I think we may need to play with a couple examples. Send it to the list for a straw poll.

Lisa: Does anyone want to volunteer to send this to the list?

Rachael: I have this action

Summary of resolutions

  1. Merge appendices B and D
Minutes manually created (not a transcript), formatted by scribe.perl version 127 (Wed Dec 30 17:39:58 2020 UTC).

Diagnostics

Maybe present: EA, Justine, Lisa, Michael, Rachael