Joint meeting of the IDCG and PWECG, part of TPAC

13 October 2020


Barbara, boazsender, chaals, Coralie, hober, Jeff, Jes_Daigle, Jory, judy, Léonie, Ralph, Rhian, Sheilamoussavi, Simon, Susanne_Konig, Tzviya, wendyreid, ZoeBijl
Léonie, Tzviya

Meeting minutes

Léonie: Welcome everyone


[Thanks everyone and welcome!]

[let's use the zoom hand up feature, rather than q+]

CEPC training plan

Leonie: in addition to CEPC training we're interested in determining any other sort of training

Tzviya: We have begun training in PWECG with an agressive plan
… pilot session two weeks ago
… invited a few people from W3C team, CGs, to offer feedback
… a week from today, a CEPC training will be orgnized (e-mail invitation will be sent today)

<zcorpan_> Simon Pieters, Bocoup

<boazsender> Boaz Sender, Bocoup

Tzviya: "what can I do as a by-stander", not a training about ombuds
… it's the beginning of our efforts
… we're looking at developing proper training
… Jory has also developed a conflict de-escalation training module

Jeff: training is in a week at 1600 UTC
… after the W3C AC Meeting session

Judy: We want to reach the global community of W3C
… which is thousands of people
… so we'll do several sessions and turn the training into a video
… some part of the interactive mode TBD for the video

<tzviya> for reference https://‌www.w3.org/‌Consortium/‌cepc/


Leonie: the second part of our agenda is an open floor
… for suggestions for other trainings
… from IDCG, the idea of diversity training came up
… we were fortunate to have consultation from Kim Crayton
… I'm sure there are other suggestions

Tzviya: a few questions came up from conversations in PWE
… how to make sure any training is international
… this group today is very western
… we're talking about inclusiveness
… and want to appeal to the entire W3C
… scaling to cultural differences
… aiming for useful training around the world
… No matter how good our diversity efforts are if we don't make people feel welcome
… so what can we do in that regard?
… and what training can we develop in those areas?

Sheila: Talked with Dom about open breakouts
… we talked about a "facilitator training"
… this applies to any events
… includes making sure anyone is familiar with code of conducts
… so efforts to make those more accessible
… "micro-aggression" training
… is an opportunity where we could have facilitation collaboration

WendyR: I love that idea, Sheila
… the facilitator training would be a great place to start for W3C Chairs as well
… to smooth things over

<Judy> [JB: PWE Wiki, training section: https://‌github.com/‌w3c/‌PWETF/‌wiki/‌PWE-Roadmap#training ]

Léonie: taking my chair's hat off
… is there need for some training to recognise problem situations?

<chaals> [+1 a focus on chairs is a good approach for W3C]

Léonie: as much as training to deal with situations?
… e.g. would I be able to recognise a micro-aggression?
… so maybe in some areas, taking a step back to understand people understand the problems.

<chaals> [I would bet that not everyone around W3C knows what a microaggression is]

Jeff: Returning to Tzviya's idea to be more welcoming globally
… I had a thought

<Judy> Here's one reference for microaggressions: https://‌en.wikipedia.org/‌wiki/‌Microaggression

Jeff: whether we would be interested in taking on an ambitious project of writing down a guide
… to have an inclusive community
… we're talking about training chairs
… have we written down the issues?
… there's a lot more to it, cultural elements
… just as we have a PWE doc, we should have an effort for being welcoming
… it probably takes a lot of work to do it right.

Judy: With regard to Jeff's comment
… he's suggesting an action
… I'm thinking partly another one of the many actions for IDCG
… that have no one backing them up
… so worth capturing
… and perhaps capturing volunteers with it.
… or stick it on the list for later

Leonie: first step could be to open an issue in the IDCG

Judy: Go for it, Jeff, the repo awaits.

Jeff: OK.

<jeff> [New IDCG issue raised to create a Guide for global

IDCG issues that have a PWE angle

Review our terminology #15

<tink> https://‌github.com/‌w3c/‌idcg/‌issues/‌15

Leonie: " Review our terminology #15" is an open issue in the IDCG that may have a PWE angle

Tzviya: summary
… suggestion to review documents and policies
… e.g., the phrases such as "master" on GH
… and there's been efforts to change that
… there's some discussion about colours in CSS and SVG
… pronouns are also being discussed
… for usage in specs

Leonie: some progress already
… systems team made changes to templates and the like
… Denis has also made changes to the pubrules editorial guidance
… W3C has been around for over 25 years, so there may other places to look at

Zoe: about pronouns
... I spent some time years ago looking at the HTML5 spec
… it uses a lot of "him/he"
… I never ended up submitting my review for various reasons
… on the subject of preferred vs. personal
… my pronouns are mine, so they're preferred.
… just throwing that out there.

Léonie: thank you
… good to hear from different perspectives

Simon: on gender in HTML std
… this was changed in 2015

<zcorpan_> https://‌github.com/‌whatwg/‌html/‌pull/‌405

Simon: I can put a link in IRC ^^
… it started with a PR in December 2015.

Zoe: Interesting
… I looked in 2017 or 2018
… but that was the W3C spec
… that may be where the discrepancy comes from
… thanks for sharing that.

<zcorpan_> (current gender balance in the HTML standard: he/him/his: 29. she/her/hers: 31. they/their/theirs: 761 )

<tzviya> https://‌www.w3.org/‌WAI/‌EO/‌wiki/‌Style#Personal_pronouns

Léonie: follow-up question:
... the Education and Outreach has done some work re: pronouns
… if I understood correctly their conclusion
… is to avoid use of pronouns altogether
… refer to person's name
… I struggle with this personally as this feels like avoiding the issue

Zoe: on the importance of pronouns and identity of people
… I don't think avoiding the pronouns at all is the right path
… but it's just my opinion

chaals: A couple things
… I agree with Léonie and Zoe
… it feels weird to me
… in the issue we have specific comments
… my other point was re: Jeff's previous comment
… do we have a particular marker for what people need to keep an eye on?

Judy: there was a mention a few minutes ago that the W3C version of the HTML5 spec wasn't updated
… we need to capture that need

Ralph: there's only one document now

Judy: With regard to the EO work
… they didn't want to use pronouns when using personas
… I'll check with Shawn if there are some misunderstandings

Tzviya: I don't want to speak to what the EO doc says
… we want to make sure this speaks to the people
… this isn't just about pronouns
… "Alice and Bob" is often used
… that's not very international
… this is something an Equity Review Board could look at [there's an open issue in IDCG for an ERB]
… the pronouns issue could be looked at in a broader way

Leonie: other issues worth looking at?

Tzviya: other terms, still on the topic, such as "grand-fathering"
… there's a list that exists

Léonie: Thanks, that would be helpful

<Ralph> [ZoeBijl posts https://‌www.selfdefined.app/ as a resource]

Create inclusive language references #17

<tink> https://‌github.com/‌w3c/‌idcg/‌issues/‌17

Leonie: This comes from personal experience
… people struggle whether to say I'm blind or visually impaired
... and even the entire community doesn't agree
… could it be useful to our community to come up with a few guidelines?
... making sure to make people feel welcome
… so getting the language right

Wendy: is it worthwhile to create something custom when there's already lots of materials out there?

<tzviya> +1 to wendyreid

Wendy: https://‌www.selfdefined.app/ which Zoe shared in the zoom chat is looking for contributors
… we could make reference to existing things that we know work

Léonie: huge +1 to not reinventing the wheel

<chaals> [+1 to Wendy's suggestion that we use, and contribute to as relevant, existing work rather than trying to start our own on this]

Judy: Let's capture that for curating

Wendy: sure, taking it

Create WG welcome emails #19

<tink> https://‌github.com/‌w3c/‌idcg/‌issues/‌19

[Tzviya introduces the issue]

Tzviya: the idea is to get a template that each chair would adapt to their groups

Léonie: those here with experience in chairing WGs or CGs, any thoughts?
… how much variation do we think there might be?
… or, those who would receive such messages, any thoughts?

WendyR: As a Chair, I draft welcome emails
… I don't think they would widely range
… here's the link to our weekly call, our chat, our GH repo, etc.
… whatever the group chooses to use is included
… and a summary of what we've been working on
… at the very end: please reach out to the chairs if you have any questions
… that's universal, I think
… any group would benefit

Léonie: Agreed

Boaz: I'm looking at the guidebook

<zcorpan_> https://‌wpc.guide/

Boaz: and I'm thinking about the FAQ we may have to write for the open breakouts
… definitely, having an email template, but also a maintained body of text
… that explains some of the basics, the conventions of groups and the w3c community
… minuting, quueing yourself, etc.

<Ralph> [we maintain https://‌www.w3.org/‌Guide/ directly in GitHub and welcome all proposals for improvement]

Boaz: it might be repetitive for people who join several groups, but I think it's OK.

Léonie: I agree very much

<Ralph> [right now I believe we have muiltiple versions, so few versions will help those who participate in multiple groups :0 ]

Judy: there are two audiences
… Chairs may be busy enough that they won't be looking for that kind of info
… if we created the resource and spread it around
… we may also offer that as a separate training
… the topic of being welcoming and creating a sense of belomging has come up in many of the IDCG calls
… along with de-escalation
… PWE could take up or jointly with IDCG
… and push it to chairs

Tzviya: a lot of this reminds me of https://‌github.com/‌w3c/‌wg-effectiveness?

<tzviya> https://‌github.com/‌w3c/‌wg-effectiveness/‌blob/‌master/‌process.md

Tzviya: the TF has closed since then
… process for busy people was great
… it's laying there

<boazsender> https://‌github.com/‌w3c/‌wg-effectiveness/‌blob/‌master/‌process.md

Boaz: these breakouts are about to be put on the agenda
… the topics are things like inclusion and justice on the internet
… and there's another one
… who are from people recruited from the P5js community have led sessions for new people in W3C, and most people are most interested in the nuances of IRC. People do not feel included until they know how to backchannel in IRC community

Boaz: "process for busy people" is not so much about creating a safe space
… the framing is more fast-paced that it needs to be for doing the work of welcoming somebody
… at the high-level, the work that's already there from Natasha is a great place to look at

<boazsender> https://‌p5js.org/‌community/

<boazsender> koalie: p5.js is the name of the community, and https://‌p5js.org/‌community/ is their community statement

Léonie: any other business for this meeting, please let me know
… we'll add to the end of the agenda

Judy: It would be interesting to take a tour of the issues on the IDCG to pick up volunteers

Léonie: We can
… but I'm always hesitant to do that on calls
… uncomfortable with putting poeple on the spot

Tzviya: I agree with Léonie on that

Léonie: we have twenty or more issues at the moment
… any ones in particular?

Judy: I'll skim what we have at the break and pick 6

Coralie: I volunteered to edit the process for busy people in light of Process 2020. It's in my TODO.

Zoe: regarding onboarding of new people
… I sometimes get asked and my instict is to send people to start from the GH repo of that particular group
… it would be good to have something like that on the W3C website
… right now we have https://‌www.w3.org/‌participate/
… but it doesn't say how to get started

<BarbaraH> +1 we need a welcoming / FAQ

Zoe: and I don't know if it's by design because we don't want a lot of invited experts, if there's a lot of overhead

<wendyreid> +1

Zoe: nor if this is the right group to bring this up at

[Jory arrives]

Leonie: please open an issue on the IDCG repo
… so we have it to track

[Susanne departs for another meeting]

[Tzviya takes over chairing from Léonie]

<tink> https://‌github.com/‌w3c/‌idcg/‌issues/‌20

Create group specific info pages #20

Léonie: This issue pertains to group pages
… related to the previous issue

Tzviya: the idea is to help WG come up with better templates, along with the website redesign
… welcome feedback here as well

Judy: in addition to an updated template, we need a culture of telling people what we're working on
… Zoe mentioned earlier they like to point people to GH
… to show that the issues are
… I think a human description is useful
… it seems there's a high-degree level of resistance
… we need to overcome that cultural barrier

Coralie: that resonates
… the website redesign has some of that in scope

Tzviya: I don't know if it's reluctance or people not knowing what or where to share
… I've used the W3C Blog
… one area is to determine the best approach to communicate

WendyR: A survey maybe?
… finding out how people get their information
… e.g. Twitter? member mailing list? wait for an e-mail from the chair?
… there's a number of ways
… understanding where people are getting information from means we can target

[Coralie nods]

Barb: I really like the roadmaps
… the media one; https://‌w3c.github.io/‌web-roadmaps/‌media/
… any way we could improve the roadmap? could we standardize how roadmaps are done?

Judy: I wish we could diversify how W3C uses roadmaps rather than standardize them
… those work for specs to show what browsers deploy those

<BarbaraH> https://‌www.w3.org/‌Mobile/‌roadmap/

Judy: I'd like W3C to show other things
… uptake
… not just the browser-only uptake
… they can be a great tool

Boaz: I've seen some and they're useful
… in terms of the communication work
… I hear Chairs complain about having not enough time to do their work
… so scope of maintining a micro-site for each group
… getting time from their employers
… this could be delegated, I don't know
… coming up with a plan
… to help get this done

Tzviya: it's an important point

Boaz: try to get buy-in
… for test-writing and general documentation, funding the work is the question
… one thought would be to get buy-in from Members who are sending people
… to support this extra 10-hour or so a month or whatever we estimate this to be

Coralie: The new wg pages that were recently released have been designed in a way to make it possible for the staff contacts or the chairs to supply those updates

Tzviya: Documentation, please
… add website maintainer, or something, and build in to the charter maybe?

Boaz: I was going to ask actually how is an editor assigned when a group is created?

Tess: the process says that Chairs appoint editors
… in the CSS WG they prefer to come up with a group resolution
… so it's not just the Chairs

Tzviya: sometimes it's obvious, sometimes you have to beg a little bit

Review of IDCG issues

<Judy> https://‌github.com/‌w3c/‌idcg/‌issues

<Judy> https://‌github.com/‌w3c/‌idcg/‌wiki/‌Draft-BLM-statement .... which includes the following statement of thematic goals: "W3C commits to take actions in the areas of learning, messaging, outreach, creating a welcoming environment, supporting participants, technical development, governance, and continuous improvement."

<Judy> Some of the issues are organized into thematic areas --

<Judy> https://‌github.com/‌w3c/‌idcg/‌wiki/‌Learning-and-Discussion

<Judy> Here's where you can find specific actions under this theme, to help with: ....https://‌github.com/‌w3c/‌idcg/‌wiki/‌Learning-and-Discussion#sub-actions

<Judy> https://‌github.com/‌w3c/‌idcg/‌wiki/‌Outreach-and-Messaging

<Judy> And here's where you can find specific actions under this theme, to help with: .....https://‌github.com/‌w3c/‌idcg/‌wiki/‌Outreach-and-Messaging#sub-actions

<Judy> https://‌github.com/‌w3c/‌idcg/‌wiki/‌Making-W3C-More-Welcoming

<Judy> Feel free to dive in anywhere, and let people know if you'd like to participate on some actions...

[Judy reads from the themes in the actions the proposed W3C BLM statement includes]

<wendyreid> Link to Kim's reponse: https://‌www.w3.org/‌2020/‌09/‌15-idcg-minutes.html#t01

Tzviya: We need a lot of help
… not all of us have the connections
… please suggest networks, please open issues, please discuss with us
… and if you think we're on the wrong path, please say so

Judy: when looking at us being too white, look at the "outreach" theme
… please let us know how this is done in your orgs

Barb: Grace Hopper virtual conference
… I did take notes on some of the actions they were doing to encourage people of colour to participate more
… in summary:
… what W3C is facing is probably very similar to what other orgs are facing
… beside reaching out, we may try to leverage what companies are doing
… like Grace Hopper
… The secong thing about Grace Hopper
… was why diversity candidates were leaving
… the number one reason is that they don't think it's an inclusive environment
… Finally, they had a wonderful open source day
… I'm going to challenge W3C to submit a session for next year's Grace Hopper
… to get people to talk about the value of W3C
… how to participate, how it's a career enhancement

Sheila: To Barb's 1st and 2nd point, what is going to be challenging to recruit black folks
… is needing to tell what we've done
… and ours is a white space
… so, show things are needed
… equipping everyone to make the space more welcoming
… on ramps for beginners is one part
… actively countering the fact that ours is a white space
… I'd love to get a sense how to help in that space
… I had a question around the process to contributing to these documents
… doubling-down on internal as we recruit

Tzviya: if you have a GH account you can contribute directly
… I'd love to be in touch with you Sheila

WendyR: I agree 100% with what Sheila just said
… we have 2 fronts of work
… external outreach to tell the world we need it and here's what we're doing
… and actually do that
… there's not only the statements we might make, but there are conferences, publishing our statement publicly and back it up with actions
… so Grace Hopper is an example. CanQuick is another in Canada
… similar audience
… one thing I was wondering as conferences are great to get the word out
… could this group work on a presentation of what the W3C is doing
… so we can give the date to those who need
… basics and consistent message

[Coralie nods]

<BarbaraH> +1 on the value of W3C

Boaz: I wanted to share a bit about the strategy for the open breakouts
… as we're recruiting people of colour and from under-represented communities
… Sheila made a great point we need a safe space

[Jes drops to go to another meeting]

Boaz: our strategy for the open breakouts in the interim is to focus on a smaller community at TPAC
… where we can plan the breakouts to be safe spaces as we're going to train the facilitators

<Judy> IDCG Wiki on being welcoming: https://‌github.com/‌w3c/‌idcg/‌wiki/‌Making-W3C-More-Welcoming

judy: one other link ^^
… please comment on what you think is missing
… the CG meets every other week
… I'd love to stay in touch
… and make W3C more welcoming.

Tzviya: Thank you very much everybody
… sorry to end so abruptly

<BarbaraH> +1 on getting more info on the Boaz open breakouts

Tzviya: we'll share the minutes from this meeting


Minutes manually created (not a transcript), formatted by scribe.perl version 123 (Tue Sep 1 21:19:13 2020 UTC).