13:59:27 RRSAgent has joined #idcg 13:59:27 logging to https://www.w3.org/2020/10/13-idcg-irc 13:59:28 Zakim has joined #idcg 13:59:47 meeting: Joint meeting of the IDCG and PWECG, part of TPAC 13:59:55 agenda: https://github.com/w3c/idcg/blob/main/2020-10-13_joint-PWECG-IDCG-meeting.md 14:00:06 chair: Léonie, Tzviya 14:00:16 agenda+ Any addition/modification to CEPC that could encourage a better and more inclusive environment 14:00:21 zakim, agenda? 14:00:21 I see 1 item remaining on the agenda: 14:00:22 1. Any addition/modification to CEPC that could encourage a better and more inclusive environment [from koalie] 14:00:22 agenda+ CEPC training plan 14:00:32 agenda+ IDCG issues that have a PWE angle 14:00:36 agenda+ 14:00:36 What other training people might be interested in? 14:00:45 agenda+ What other training people might be interested in? 14:00:48 jeff has joined #idcg 14:00:48 agenda+ AOB? 14:01:26 wendyreid has joined #idcg 14:01:33 present+ 14:01:55 present+ 14:02:13 present+ 14:02:14 present+ Boaz, Coralie, Léonie, Tzviya, Barbara, Simon, WendyR, Jeff, Jes_Daigle, Sheilamoussavi, Susanne_Konig, Tess 14:02:25 Ralph has joined #idcg 14:02:53 agenda+ Introductions 14:03:06 Zakim, agenda order is 6 1 2 3 4 5 14:03:06 ok, koalie 14:03:12 scribenick: koalie 14:03:18 Léonie: Welcome everyone 14:03:27 Zakim, take up item 1 14:03:27 agendum 1. "Any addition/modification to CEPC that could encourage a better and more inclusive environment" taken up [from koalie] 14:03:35 present+ 14:04:54 chaals has joined #idcg 14:04:56 Zakim, take up item 6 14:04:56 agendum 6. "Introductions" taken up [from koalie] 14:05:40 Susanne has joined #idcg 14:06:05 present+ chaals, judy, Rhian 14:06:13 present+ Zoe 14:06:59 BarbaraH has joined #Idcg 14:11:49 present+ Ralph 14:12:10 RRSAgent, make logs public 14:12:21 [Thanks everyone and welcome!] 14:12:35 [let's use the zoom hand up feature, rather than q+] 14:12:50 Zakim, agenda? 14:12:50 I see 6 items remaining on the agenda: 14:12:51 6. Introductions [from koalie] 14:12:51 1. Any addition/modification to CEPC that could encourage a better and more inclusive environment [from koalie] 14:12:51 2. CEPC training plan [from koalie] 14:12:51 3. IDCG issues that have a PWE angle [from koalie] 14:12:51 4. What other training people might be interested in? [from koalie] 14:12:52 5. AOB? [from koalie] 14:12:55 Zakim, close item 6 14:12:55 agendum 6, Introductions, closed 14:12:56 I see 5 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is 14:12:56 1. Any addition/modification to CEPC that could encourage a better and more inclusive environment [from koalie] 14:13:08 Zakim, take up item 2 14:13:08 agendum 2. "CEPC training plan" taken up [from koalie] 14:13:23 Leonie: in addition to CEPC training we're interested in determining any other sort of training 14:13:32 jesdaigle has joined #idcg 14:13:48 Tzviya: We have begun training in PWECG with an agressive plan 14:13:54 ... pilot session two weeks ago 14:14:03 ... invited a few people from W3C team, CGs, to offer feedback 14:14:07 zcorpan_ has joined #idcg 14:14:15 present+ 14:14:22 boazsender has joined #idcg 14:14:25 ... a week from today, a CEPC training will be orgnized (e-mail invitation will be sent today) 14:14:26 Simon Pieters, Bocoup 14:14:32 present+ 14:14:46 Boaz Sender, Bocoup 14:15:08 ... "what can I do as a by-stander", not a training about ombuds 14:15:13 ... it's the beginning of our efforts 14:15:25 ... we're looking at @@ 14:15:55 s/ at @@/ at developing proper training/ 14:16:00 Sheila has joined #idcg 14:16:16 ... Jory has also developed a conflict de-escalation training module 14:16:36 q? 14:17:10 Jeff: training is in a week at 1600 UTC 14:17:17 ... after the W3C AC Meeting session 14:17:40 Judy: We want to reach the global community of W3C 14:17:44 ... which is thousands of people 14:17:56 ... so we'll do several sessions and turn the training into a video 14:18:07 ... some part of the interactive mode TBD for the video 14:18:55 present+ 14:19:23 regrets+ 14:19:24 for reference https://www.w3.org/Consortium/cepc/ 14:19:33 ==== 14:19:44 Leonie: the second part of our agenda is an open floor 14:19:51 ... for suggestions for other trainings 14:20:03 ... from IDCG, the idea of diversity training came up 14:20:19 ... we were fortunate to have consultation from Kim Crayton 14:20:38 ... I'm sure there are other suggestions 14:20:41 q? 14:20:52 agenda? 14:21:00 Tzviya: a few questions came up from conversations in PWE 14:21:07 ... how to make sure any training is international 14:21:14 ... this group today is very western 14:21:20 ... we're talking about inclusiveness 14:21:26 ... and want to appeal to the entire W3C 14:21:37 ... scaling to cultural differences 14:21:44 ... aiming for useful training around the world 14:22:25 ... No matter how good our diversity efforts are if we don't make people feel welcome 14:22:36 ... so what can we do in that regard? 14:22:44 ... and what training can we develop in those areas? 14:23:06 Sheila: Talked with Dom about open breakouts 14:23:15 ... we talked about facilitating 14:23:34 ... this applies to any events 14:23:49 ... includes making sure anyone is familiar with code of conducts 14:23:56 ... so efforts to make those more accessible 14:24:07 ... "micro-aggression" training 14:24:27 ... is an opportunity where we could have facilitation collaboration 14:24:34 WendyR: I love that idea, Sheila 14:24:49 ... the facilitator training would be a great place to start for W3C Chairs as well 14:25:06 s/about facilitating/about a "facilitator training"/ 14:25:32 ... to smooth things over 14:25:38 [JB: PWE Wiki, training section: https://github.com/w3c/PWETF/wiki/PWE-Roadmap#training ] 14:25:40 Léonie: taking my chair's hat off 14:25:49 ... is there need for some training to recognise problem situations? 14:25:51 [+1 a focus on chairs is a good approach for W3C] 14:25:57 ... as much as training to deal with situations? 14:26:11 ... e.g. would I be able to recognise a micro-aggression? 14:26:25 ... so maybe in some areas, taking a step back to understand people understand the problems. 14:26:28 [I would bet that not everyone around W3C knows what a microaggression is] 14:26:49 Jeff: Returning to Tzviya's idea to be more welcoming globally 14:26:54 ... I had a thought 14:27:00 Here's one reference for microaggressions: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microaggression 14:27:09 ... whether we would be interested in taking on an ambitious project of writing down a guide 14:27:15 ... to have an inclusive community 14:27:22 ... we're talking about training chairs 14:27:29 ... have we written down the issues? 14:27:38 ... there's a lot more to it, cultural elements 14:27:56 ... just as we have a PWE doc, we should have an effort for being welcoming 14:28:04 ... it probably takes a lot of work to do it right. 14:28:19 Zakim, close this item 14:28:19 agendum 2 closed 14:28:20 I see 4 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is 14:28:20 1. Any addition/modification to CEPC that could encourage a better and more inclusive environment [from koalie] 14:28:23 q+ 14:28:24 Zakim, agenda? 14:28:24 I see 4 items remaining on the agenda: 14:28:26 1. Any addition/modification to CEPC that could encourage a better and more inclusive environment [from koalie] 14:28:26 3. IDCG issues that have a PWE angle [from koalie] 14:28:26 4. What other training people might be interested in? [from koalie] 14:28:26 5. AOB? [from koalie] 14:28:38 Judy: With regard to Jeff's comment 14:28:44 ... he's suggesting an action 14:28:58 ... I'm thinking partly another one of the many actions for IDCG 14:29:06 ... that are no one backing them up 14:29:14 s/are no/have no/ 14:29:18 ... so worth capturing 14:29:27 ... and perhaps capturing volunteers with it. 14:29:34 ... or stick it on the list for later 14:29:48 Leonie: first step could be to open an issue in the IDCG 14:30:01 Judy: Go for it, Jeff, the repo awaits. 14:30:03 Jeff: OK> 14:30:07 s/>/./ 14:30:17 Zakim, drop item 4 14:30:17 agendum 4, What other training people might be interested in?, dropped 14:30:22 Zakim, agenda? 14:30:22 I see 3 items remaining on the agenda: 14:30:23 1. Any addition/modification to CEPC that could encourage a better and more inclusive environment [from koalie] 14:30:23 3. IDCG issues that have a PWE angle [from koalie] 14:30:23 5. AOB? [from koalie] 14:30:34 https://github.com/w3c/idcg/issues/15 14:30:50 Zakim, take up item 3 14:30:50 agendum 3. "IDCG issues that have a PWE angle" taken up [from koalie] 14:31:16 Leonie: " Review our terminology #15" is an open issue in the IDCG that may have a PWE angle 14:31:44 Tzviya: summary 14:32:06 ... suggestion to review doc and policies 14:32:14 ... the phrases such as "master" on GH 14:32:21 ... and there's been efforts to change that 14:32:34 ... there's some discussion about colours in CSS and SVG 14:32:41 ... pronouns are also being discussed 14:32:49 ... for usage in specs 14:33:06 Leonie: some progress already 14:33:16 ... systems team made changes to templates and the like 14:33:27 ... Denis has also made changs to the pubrules editorial guidances 14:33:31 s/dances/dance/ 14:33:48 ... W3C has been around for over 25 years, so there may other places to look at 14:34:00 Zoe: about pronouns 14:34:00 [New IDCG issue raised to create a Guide for global inclusions --> https://github.com/w3c/idcg/issues/32] 14:34:12 ... I spent some time years ago looking at the HTML5 spec 14:34:17 ... it uses a lot of "him/he" 14:34:26 ... I never ended up submitting my review for various reasons 14:34:41 ... on the subject of preferred vs. personal 14:34:50 ... my pronouns are mine, so they're preferred. 14:34:55 ... just throwing that out there. 14:34:59 Léonie: thank you 14:35:03 q+ 14:35:16 q- 14:35:17 ... good to hear from different perspectives 14:35:34 ack Zakim 14:35:48 Simon: on gender in HTML std 14:35:52 ... this was changed in 2015 14:35:55 https://github.com/whatwg/html/pull/405 14:35:59 ... I can put a link in IRC ^^ 14:36:14 ... it started with a PR in December 2015. 14:36:33 Zoe: Interesting 14:36:37 ... I looked in 2017 or 2018 14:36:41 ... but that was the W3C spec 14:36:56 ... that may be where the discrepancy comes from 14:37:00 ... thanks for sharing that. 14:37:06 Léonie: follow-up question: 14:37:15 https://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/wiki/Style#Personal_pronouns 14:37:22 ... the Education and Outreach has done some work re: pronouns 14:37:33 ... if I understood correctly their conclusion 14:37:43 ... is to avoid use of pronouns altogether 14:37:47 ... refer to person's names 14:37:52 s/names/name/ 14:38:08 ... I struggle with this personally as this feels like avoiding the issue 14:38:35 Zoe: on the importance of pronounce and identity of people 14:38:45 ... I don't think avoiding the pronouns at all is the right path 14:38:50 ... but it's just my opinion 14:39:02 chaals: A couple things 14:39:07 ... I agree with Léonie and Zoe 14:39:11 ... it feels weird to me 14:39:28 ... in the issue we have specific comments 14:39:59 ... my other point was re: Jeff's previous comment 14:40:13 ... do we have a particular marker for what people need to keep an eye on? 14:40:59 Judy: there was a mention a few minutes ago that the W3C version of the HTML5 spec wasn't updated 14:41:07 ... we need to capture that need 14:41:15 Ralph: there's only one document now 14:41:28 Judy: With regard to the EO work 14:41:45 ... they didn't want to use pronouns when using personas 14:42:03 ... I'll check with Shawn if there are some misunderstandings 14:42:15 Tzviya: I don't want to speak to what the EO doc says 14:42:27 ... we want to make sure this speaks to the people 14:42:57 ... this isn't just about pronouns 14:43:08 ... "Alice and Bob" is often used 14:43:13 ... that's not very international 14:44:04 ... this is something an Equity Review Board could look at [there's an open issue in IDCG for an ERB] 14:44:46 ... the pronouns issue could be looked at in a broader way 14:44:54 Leonie: other issues worth looking at? 14:45:09 Tzviya: other terms, still on the topic, such as "grand-fathering" 14:45:15 ... there's a list that exists 14:45:21 Léonie: Thanks, that would be helpful 14:45:48 https://github.com/w3c/idcg/issues/17 14:46:06 sub-topic: Create inclusive language references #17 14:46:15 Leonie: This comes from personal experience 14:46:33 ... people struggle whether to say I'm blind or visually impaired 14:46:36 [ZoeBijl posts https://www.selfdefined.app/ as a resource] 14:46:41 ... and even the entire community doesn't agree 14:46:58 ... could it be useful to our community to come up with a few guidelines? 14:47:01 (current gender balance in the HTML standard: he/him/his: 29. she/her/hers: 31. they/their/theirs: 761 ) 14:47:08 ... making sure to make people feel welcome 14:47:13 ... so getting the language right 14:47:54 Wendy: is it worthwhile to create something custom when there's already lots of materials out there? 14:48:13 +1 to wendyreid 14:48:19 ... https://www.selfdefined.app/ which Zoe shared in the zoom chat is looking for contributors 14:48:47 ... we could make reference to existing things that we know work 14:48:57 Léonie: huge +1 to not reinventing the wheel 14:49:06 [+1 to Wendy's suggestion that we use, and contribute to as relevant, existing work rather than trying to start our own on this] 14:49:40 Judy: Let's capture that for curating 14:49:45 Wendy: sure, taking it 14:49:46 https://github.com/w3c/idcg/issues/19 14:49:58 sub-topic: Create WG welcome emails #19 14:50:20 [Tzviya introduces the issue] 14:51:41 Tzviya: the idea is to get a template that each chair would adapt to their groups 14:51:56 Léonie: those here with experience in chairing WGs or CGs, any thoughts? 14:52:05 ... how much variation do we think there might be? 14:52:35 ... or, those who would receive such messages, any thoughts? 14:52:48 WendyR: As a Chair, I draft welcome emails 14:52:57 ... I don't think they would widely range 14:53:15 ... here's the link to our weekly call, our chat, our GH repo, etc. 14:53:25 ... whatever the group chooses to use is included 14:53:32 ... and a summary of what we've been working on 14:53:49 ... at the very end: please reach out to the chairs if you have any questions 14:53:57 ... that's universal, I think 14:54:01 ... any group would benefit 14:54:06 Léonie: Agreed 14:54:21 Boaz: I'm looking at the guidebook https://www.w3.org/Guide/ 14:54:59 https://wpc.guide/ 14:55:01 ... and I'm thinking about the FAQ we may have to write for the open breakouts 14:55:20 ... definitely, having an email template, but also a maintained body of text 14:55:34 ... that explains some of the basics, the conventions of groups and the w3c community 14:56:00 ... minuting, quueing yourself, etc. 14:56:10 [we maintain https://www.w3.org/Guide/ directly in GitHub and welcome all proposals for improvement] 14:56:33 Boaz: it might be repetitive for people who join several groups, but I think it's OK. 14:56:44 Léonie: I agree very much 14:57:03 [right now I believe we have muiltiple versions, so few versions will help those who participate in multiple groups :0 ] 14:57:10 https://wpc.guide/ 14:57:12 Judy: there are two audiances 14:57:57 ... Chairs may be busy enough that they won't be looking for that kind of info 14:58:07 ... if we created the resource and spread it around 14:58:17 ... we may also offer that as a separate training 14:58:32 ... the topic of being welcoming and creating a sense of belomging has come up in many of the IDCG calls 14:58:41 ... along with de-escalation 14:58:55 ... PWE could take up or jointly with IDCG 14:59:05 ... and push it to chairs 14:59:27 Tzviya: a lot of this reminds me of https://github.com/w3c/wg-effectiveness?  14:59:37 https://github.com/w3c/wg-effectiveness/blob/master/process.md 14:59:39 ... the TF has closed since then 14:59:56 ... process for busy people was great 15:00:00 ... it's laying there 15:00:09 https://github.com/w3c/wg-effectiveness/blob/master/process.md 15:00:43 q+ 15:00:58 Tzviya: @@ 15:01:33 Boaz: these breakouts are about to be put on the agenda 15:01:52 ... the topics are things like inclusion and justice on the internet 15:01:58 ... and there's another one 15:02:10 ... who are from prople recruiting from the PF@@ community 15:02:24 s/@@/I have led sessions for new people in W3C, and most people are most interested in the nuances of IRC. People do not feel included until they know how to backchannel in IRC 15:02:42 Boaz: "process for busy people" is not so much about creating a safe space 15:02:57 ... the framing is more fast-paced that it needs to be for doing the work of welcoming somebody 15:03:12 ... at the high-level, the work that's already there from Natasha is a great place to look at 15:04:04 https://p5js.org/community/ 15:04:31 koalie: p5.js is the name of the community, and https://p5js.org/community/ is their community statement 15:04:48 Léonie: any other business for this meeting, please let me know 15:04:57 ... we'll add to the end of the agenda 15:05:15 Judy: It would be interested to take a tour from the issues on the IDCG to pick up volunteers 15:05:18 Léonie: We can 15:05:26 ... always hesitant to do that on calls 15:05:35 ... uncomfortable with putting poeple on the spot 15:05:49 Tzviya: I agree with Léonie on that 15:06:05 Léonie: we have twenty or more issues at the moment 15:06:10 ... any ones in particular? 15:06:19 Judy: I'll skim what we have at the break and pick 6 15:06:43 Coralie: I volunteered to edit the process for busy people in light of Process 2020. It's in my TODO. 15:07:30 Zoe: regarding onboarding of new people 15:08:00 ... I sometimes get asked and my instict is to send people to start from the GH repo of that particular group 15:08:09 ... it would be good to have something like that on the W3C website 15:08:21 ... right now we have https://www.w3.org/participate/ 15:08:29 ... but it doesn't say how to get started 15:08:34 ack me 15:09:12 +1 we need a welcoming / FAQ 15:09:22 ... and I don't know if it's by design because we don't want a lot of invited experts, if there's a lot of overhead 15:09:25 +1 15:09:30 ... nor if this is the right group to bring this up at 15:09:51 present+ Jory 15:09:55 [Jory arrives] 15:10:08 Leonie: please open an issue on the IDCG repo 15:10:13 ... so we have it to track 15:10:36 [Susanne departs for another meeting] 15:23:24 [Tzviya takes over chairing from Léonie] 15:23:37 RRSagent, make minutes 15:23:37 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2020/10/13-idcg-minutes.html koalie 15:23:48 https://github.com/w3c/idcg/issues/20 15:24:08 sub-topic: Create group specific info pages #20 15:24:54 Léonie: This issue pertains to group pages 15:25:00 ... related to the previous issue 15:25:33 Tzviya: the idea is to help WG come up with better templates, along with the website redesign 15:25:39 ... welcome feedback here as well 15:25:58 Judy: in addition to an updated template, we need a culture of telling people what we're working on 15:26:06 ... Zoe mentioned earlier they like to point people to GH 15:26:10 ... to show that the issues are 15:26:19 ... I think a human description is useful 15:26:36 ... it seems there's a high-degree level of resistance 15:26:45 ... we need to overcome that cultural barrier 15:27:21 Coralie: that resonates 15:27:38 ... the website redesign has some of that in scope 15:27:56 Tzviya: I don't know if it's reluctance or people not knowing what or where to share 15:28:00 ... I've used the W3C Blog 15:28:12 ... one area is to determine the best approach to community 15:28:20 s/to community/to communicate/ 15:28:30 WendyR: A survey maybe? 15:28:37 ... finding out how people get their information 15:28:48 ... e.g. Twitter? member mailing list? wait for an e-mail from the chair? 15:28:55 ... there's a number of ways 15:29:19 ... understanding where people are getting information from means we can target 15:29:27 [Coralie nods] 15:29:49 chaals has joined #idcg 15:29:59 Barb: I really like the roadmaps 15:30:15 ... the media one; https://w3c.github.io/web-roadmaps/media/ 15:31:01 ... any way we could improve the roadmap? could we standardize how roadmaps are done? 15:31:33 Judy: I wish we could diversify how W3C uses roadmaps rather than standardize them 15:31:46 ... those work for specs to show what browsers deploy those 15:31:48 https://www.w3.org/Mobile/roadmap/ 15:31:57 ... I'd like W3C to show other things 15:31:59 ... uptake 15:32:08 ... not just the browser-only uptake 15:32:12 ... they can be a great tool 15:32:38 Boaz: I've seen some and they're useful 15:32:43 ... in terms of the communication work 15:32:56 ... I hear Chairs complain about having not enough time to do their work 15:33:09 ... so scope of maintining a micro-site for each group 15:33:22 ... getting time from their employers 15:33:24 q+ 15:33:37 ... this could be delegated, I don't know 15:33:45 ... coming up with a plan 15:33:51 ... to help get this done 15:33:57 Tzviya: it's an important point 15:34:24 Boaz: try to get buy-in 15:34:42 ... for test-writing and general documentation, funding the work is the question 15:34:54 ... one thought would be to get buy-in from Members who are sending people 15:35:20 ... to support this extra 10-hour or so a month or whatever we estimate this to be 15:35:26 Coralie: @@ 15:35:39 ack ko 15:36:25 s/@@/The new wg pages that were recently released have been designed in a way to make it possible for the staff contacts of the chair to come up with those updates/ 15:36:33 Tzviya: Documentation, please 15:36:50 ... add website maintainer, or something, and build in to the charter maybe? 15:37:29 Boaz: I was going to ask actually how is an editor assigned when a group is created? 15:37:32 Tess: @@ 15:38:08 Tess: the process says that Chairs appoint editors 15:38:19 ... in the CSS WG they prefer to come up with a group resolution 15:38:27 ... so it's not just the Chairs 15:38:43 Tzviya: sometimes it's obvious, sometimes you have to beg a little bit 15:39:39 Zakim, close this item 15:39:39 agendum 3 closed 15:39:40 I see 2 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is 15:39:40 1. Any addition/modification to CEPC that could encourage a better and more inclusive environment [from koalie] 15:39:50 Zakim, drop item 1 15:39:50 agendum 1, Any addition/modification to CEPC that could encourage a better and more inclusive environment, dropped 15:40:04