Silver F2F Monday

10 Mar 2020



jeanne, Chuck, MichaelC, Lauriat, KimD, mattg, PeterKorn, Rachael, bruce_bailey, kirkwood, JF, sajkaj, Katie_Haritos-Shea, Nicaise_, AngelaAccessForAll, JakeAbma, Detlev, nicaise, Fazio, charleshall, JoeCronin_, mbgower, alastairc, david-macdonald, ChrisLoiselle, Jennie, Laura, Makoto
Shawn, jeanne
Chuck, sajkaj, Fazio, jcraig, ChrisLoiselle


<Chuck> scribe: Chuck

<PeterKorn> ppresent+


Introduction and where we are (focus areas in response AGWG comments)

Jeanne: A few who are not familiar... let's do an introduction, and what we are trying to do.

Shawn: We are using #silver, taking minutes and links and comments.
... Chuck volunteered for scribing, we'll need a 2nd scribe for 2nd hour and a backup.

Janina: I'll backup and take 2nd hour.

Shawn: Let's get started.
... A quick re-hash of how we got here.

<Lauriat> https://w3c.github.io/silver/requirements/index.html

Shawn: Link to silver requirements document.
... This is what we put together to establish what we are building and why. Cover a few of the overall design principals and requirements.
... We'll talk through some recent comments on current work. Then overview of planning over the next 2 days.
... Thank you everybody for flexibility and support, and patients with this. This is a first remote. We scheduled for the largest number and most diverse # of people.

<Lauriat> https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/task-forces/silver/wiki/2020_March_F2F_Meeting_at_CSUN#Agenda

Shawn: Hopefully a couple of sessions works for everybody.
... Design principals. Things we want to call out, set the overall guidance star for silver work. These are things we couldn't necessarily measure achieving these things.

<Lauriat> Support the needs of a wide range of people with disabilities and recognize that people have individual and multiple needs.

Shawn: "support the needs of a wide range of disabilities..."

Katie: You going to share?

Shawn: Not planning, put link in irc, people can follow along.
... We should always reference that this is something to guide the work that we do.

Bruce: We have people in zoom that have never heard of irc. Can we do some screen sharing? I know it's new to some.

Shawn: I'll give that a shot.

<team determines how best to screen share>

Shawn: Talk through a couple of the other design principals. I won't read through everything.

<Lauriat> Support a measurement and conformance structure that includes guidance for a broad range of disabilities. This includes particular attention to the needs of low vision and cognitive accessibility, whose needs don't tend to fit the true/false statement success criteria of WCAG 2.x.

Shawn: One of the things is to support a measurement and structure that covers a wide range of disabilities. Especially coga (and others) that don't fit... <pasted in>
... Some of the other design principals: overall... inclusion of most set of people creating...
... Some feedback, don't want to spend too much time on intro. Does this seem a good assessment of where we are?

JF: I think so yes. Over the next 2 days I hope we can talk about point #6, repeatable tests.

Shawn: Thanks John. "Improve the ability to support automated testing where appropriate..."

<Lauriat> Improve the ability to support automated testing where appropriate and provide a procedure for repeatable tests when manual testing is appropriate.

Shawn: For the agenda, today we have intro, followed by working through a scoring example. tomorrow we'll talk through normative vs informative and what should be what..
... Tuesday the first session should be on new content on what we can work on next, 2nd half of tuesday we talk through 2nd half of testing.
... The reason is we want to work through comments we got through recently from wg that we got on our working draft.

<jeanne> https://raw.githack.com/w3c/silver/ED-changes-25Feb-js/guidelines/#visual-contrast-of-text

<jeanne> https://raw.githack.com/w3c/silver/ED-changes-25Feb-js/guidelines/

Jeanne: This is the most recent branch in github.
... For benefit of those who haven't seen it before, run through the sections, we've made some updates based on first round of comments from agwg.
... We've updated intro based on comments. There were questions about the scope. Some people wanted it more broad, some more narrow. We decided to adapt the charter scope.
... There were a few things to make it fit this document. That's the scope.
... We are stating we are planning to be inclusive of wcag atag and uag. atag would be in non-normative way. Then we started into the guidelines.
... There were a lot of questions, and people wanted to know how it maps to wcag 2. We added a table. In general sc in wcag become guidelines in wcag 3
... Techniques map to methods. Understanding maps to how to documents. We gave a link to templates. A number of people asked to see bones of structure without too much detail.

<JakeAbma> persent+ JakeAbma

Jeanne: Please review. We put in 3 guidelines we are working on. 2 are migrated from wcag 2, headings and visual contrast of text. The middle one is clear language, a new guideline
... That came from coga. We worked closely with coga on the development. You can see under each guideline, there's a link to headings.
... "how to".. if you open those links, you'll see a wireframe of how we want the guidance to work. ... get started which covers a summary...
... any exceptions, then examples. Then activities... people who would be working on a project would plan, design, writing, development. Final tab is list of methods.
... If you click on the methods, you'll see an edit text for clear language, will show you the different tabs for methods. Basics (details of what it applies to, how recently updated).
... Detailed description, code samples, test, resources, changelog. Any questions?
... This is a lot to throw at you quickly. Please speak up in IRC or on phone.

Katie: To be clear, the requirements of wcag 1 and 3 are guidelines, and 2 is sc.

Jeanne: Yes, our best guess was to include guidelines. I found Friday when we talked about normative and informative. I found an email from Katie in 2006, asking for definition of normative.
... These are our samples of the guidelines. We have intro which needs to be shortened. Moving more info into explainer. I put it in the editors note.
... We do have an explainer doc. I moved goals, background info, I started moving some of the issues that we don't have consensus on or are difficult to obtain consensus.
... w3c recommends to include that. It's not done yet.
... We took the conformance issues and narrowed it to declaring a scope.
... We'll talk more. Declaring a scope is a recognition of how people operate today. We are formalizing what people actually do. Here's a logical subset of the entire operation...
... For example, make a claim for crossword puzzles... this is just to formalize that people can do a logical subset of their entire website or application or product.
... Next part is in response to a number of research requests and some of this also came from the work that Janina and Peter did on challenges doc. We want to formalize how to do sampling.
... To do that we are referencing wcag em. The issue is it's very web page oriented. We want to have a broader scope to it, but the principals apply.
... People thought we were just allowing cherry picking, but that's not correct. We put in the highlights from wcag em, so people could see that this is a very structured process to do the sampling.
... That's a change from earlier.
... What is new to silver is the next section, different sample size requirements for different size products. Hopefully we can talk about today. We can do more with this.
... Anything with either sites under 10 pages or screens need to test everything. 11-100 they need to test all pages with automated, and review at least 10 pages with indepth pages.
... Needs to be representative. Common elements must have testin. Then larger sites. As we tried to make them more suited for the size. We have a note that we want to talk about more...
... Do we want to have different requirements based on complexity? We'd love ideas. We moved to points and levels. We'd like to evaluate each guideline and come up with a % result.
... There will be various ways of doing that based on the guidelines. Based on what's in the guideline and in the methods. So people know how to test and score.
... It gives us more flexibility to cover more of the complex needs we are getting from various groups that are having difficulty getting their needs included in wcag 2.
... This is one of the solutions we came up with. Most of the group thinks this is the best solution to date. We'll cover scoring later.
... Another thing that came out of research, 18 months of research, combining corporate and academic.
... That's part of our solution of ... what we want to do is say that authors are not responsible for the bugs of the browsers or at. Not that you shouldn't test with these, but people...
... Shouldn't do hacks to correct code to adapt to bugs of browsers and at. In practice that's how people interpret accessibility supported. But that has bad results long term.

Katie: We want to call that technical debt. That will... we want to prevent that from happening.

<bruce_bailey> love the reference to "technical debt" !

Shawn: One of the other sides is covering emerging technologies, a particular use of technology or standard is not covered yet, to be able to express that in a helpful meaningful way.
... We should come up with a name just to clarify so that we aren't as soft.
... Yes, we need better words to use. Scoping for instance, pages and screens doesn't completely cover how silver works.
... for google docs there is one url for the editor, you could call things out as screens, there is a ton of functionality that isn't different screens. This becomes a very large surface area.
... Not well covered by "pages and screens". We hope to work through that over the next couple of days, terminology and conformance definitions to make sense.

Oconnor: Any thoughts to add from Aria AT community group that document the bugs?

Shawn: We haven't given that a lot of formal thought. I and my team are actively interested in contributing.
... For those unfamiliar with ARIA AT, coming from ARIA work and practices guide, tons of implementation examples. The aria at group documents what are the bugs in browsers and screen readers.
... And how well they adopt ARIA standards.

Jeanne: Shawn, do you think we've covered enough, should we cover comments?

Shawn: Summary from Alastair? Or too early?

Jeanne: We've fixed most of that summary. What we had left are issues we are addressing today. Scoring system, what's normative and not. We also had... testability and...
... ...we need to change the name, we know that, not our highest priority. We are looking to make the substantive changes that the group has been asking for.

Shawn: The name we have drafted is W3C accessibilty guidelines, which abbreviates to WCAG 3.

JF: Jeanne is showing comments from survey. To be clear, these aren't the complete comments from the wg. They are comments.

Jeanne: I was trying to show a different screen. John, is your concern is that there are more comments?

JF: I think the survey is still open, and if someone didn't comment in the survey, this isn't a complete sense of thoughts from the wg.

Jeanne: Glad you clarified that. This is what we used to set the agenda. What are the issues that are outstanding that we need to address. Scoring and normative were the biggest ones, and that's where we'll focus.

Shawn: A quick summary of those. For the scoring, it was more of the need to see some end to end examples of how scoring works. Normative vs informative... we have been thinking...
... of the structure of silver... user needs, tests. only the guidelines would be normative, the rest would be informative. We have some questions and want to work through pros and cons
... for each part of the structure.
... ... moving on to scoring example.

Working through the Scoring Example (whole group)

Jeanne: Here's the document...

<jeanne> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1LfzTd_8WgTi0IUOOjUCRfRQ7e7__FRcnZow4w7zLlkY/

Jeanne: that's what I'm sharing. First thing I want to point out is that we do reference wcag em. I put a link to it.
... Underlying this is a spreadsheet I was using for calculating the scores. That's also linked to, but please don't change. Be cautious.
... What we were asked was to take a person interested in making a conformance claim through all the steps of a demo site. Declaring a scope, taking a representative sample,
... Scoring against the new guidelines, total score, minimums, and level
... This uses W3C before and after.
... First part of declaring a scope is the way before and after demo is a portion of the w3c wai webset. A subsection of the w3c site. The before and after demo is...
... That we aren't trying to test the whole website, just the small part, and that's the scope.
... One of the things is that the scope doesn't have to be expressed as a URL. Not restricted. A single page app would not be ... if a complex app that's state driven, may not be url...
... mobile apps also could not be expressed as a URL. Any q on declaring a scope?

JF: In a reporting scenario, how do we envision the scope being declared? Will there be a formal structure?
... So that we know we are comparing apples to apples?

Jeanne: How does Deque handle it today? If someone asks Deque to evaluate a small part.

JF: We'll start with an itemized list, and if it's a subsection we'll call it out a a component. I'm asking in a structural way, do we envision a structure?
... Our report includes what is tested. An itemized list of URL's as the baseline?

Jeanne: How do you handle it with mobile apps?

JF: We use screens.

Jeanne: We may have to write more about this, but do you see a problem with what we have?

JF: I would be concerned if we mixed screens and pages for example.

Shawn: With different apps there is different kinds of granularity. google docs, the vpat declares the scope as the full application. When we do testing for new functionality we tend to...
... describe it in terms of the scope of functionality. The controls for opening and closing the outline, interacting with that outline, focus movement.

JF: Shawn you have answered some of my question. Your scope has declared a section of a doc and screen, and focused on functionality. Will we focus on functionality or screens?
... Is it one of pages, screens, components, something else?

Jeanne: We need to be flexible.

JF: As flexible as gell.

Shawn: In terms of tasks (which has its own set of issues)... for google docs the task would be navigating doc by heading, for a flat traditional website may be to get to this page...
... Allows for the flexibility of not being tied to URLs, screens, or anything else that's application specific.

Matt: I want to raise digital publishing aspect. Screens and pages get confusing. epub consists of many html docs. Even bringing in sub-sections can be confusing. Is considered one whole, one unit.
... Language may be very confusing. Does site apply to epub internal contents where you have different html pages together. I don't have issue with web, but the terminology needs to be finessed.

Jeanne: If we added epub to the list, would that be an appropriate usage?

Matt: Maybe not epub specific, but something along those lines would be helpful.

Shawn: Good way would be in supporting documentation or explainer of having an example "for this kind of app, here's how you can do this..."

Matt: that would help, as long as it's clear and obvious what the interaction is between the terminology and technology.

JF: Currently on screen we have "take a sample of website" This is just a draft, but I have a concern about website in this context.

Jeanne: I have an example of a non-website that follows it. Anything else on scope?

PK: I want to underscore that this conversation shows the variety of uses for these guidelines, and the necessity of giving the owner of the product significant flexibility of describing what the intent of the product is.
... Are you talking about an app, a book, specific chapters, whatever. as we try to support the various uses of this work we need to ensure that authors and owners have the ability to make those descriptions.

Shawn: Indeed.

Jeanne: Let's take a look at the next section. We are getting more into the meat of things. Taking representative sample. The before and after is only 4 pages long, so not a great example.
... What I did was take a different example and look at the wai website. What I did for the first example, I looked at... very high level, very sketchy level. We didn't want to spend too much time on it.
... We followed the wcag rules. This is the wai section of the w3c website. 2nd step is to explore target website. Identify common web pages.
... the identify essential functionality
... identified landing pages with common top nav and footer. Detailed pages on a topic... unique element. video pages with captions.
... We said "3 basic types of pages". We identified technologies relied upon. Identified other relevant web pages (from footer). contact, etc...
... Step 3 is select a representative sample. The structured sample is all the pages we identified above.
... We took all of the structured templates, etc.
... Then we also included randomly selected sample. Let's assume there are 120 pages, we would add 12 random pages as recommended by wcag em.
... Then include any complete processes... login checkout creating new account. We didn't have any of these on the wai website. Not included in our review, but this is where we would included it.
... 16 structured pages, 12 random pages, 28 in total.
... This is all what folk in agwg are familiar with.

<sajkaj> scribe: sajkaj

js: Moving to a nonweb sample
... Picked NY Times app for Android; specifically the "For You" section
... Paraphrased wcag-em for nonweb -- it's scratch work so far; rewording should be done by ACT-TF
... It's a thought expiriment at this stage
... -- Works through the em steps ...

corb: How did you pick "random screens"

js: Just made it up -- somewhere to start

<Lauriat> Scoring Example: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1LfzTd_8WgTi0IUOOjUCRfRQ7e7__FRcnZow4w7zLlkY/edit

bb: Notes that ability to select is best for NY Times itself

corb: On website we have index, so "pick random" is easy
... How do we advise "choose at random" for screens? Not sure what the solution might be

js: There are good guidelines in wcag-em
... Lots of depth there, and seems best to adapt not redefine

bb: Works well when there is a conformance claim
... Not se helpful to third parties

sl: But a third party would still have some sampling to illustrate the concern; "looking at these kinds of screens, etc"

bb: Agree and notes it's no loss from today

js: OK, this was the easy part ... Let's take on actually scoring ...
... Took before and after demo -- but only used the before part
... Found issues with headings
... Similar heading issues on multiple pages

jf: Reads from heading guideline ...
... Where is "hierarchy" in normative requirements?

<Lauriat> https://raw.githack.com/w3c/silver/ED-changes-25Feb-js/guidelines/#headings

<bruce_bailey_> Interesting. Is hieracrchy inferred from "use"?

js: Reviews the Silver process -- and the last step is to write the guidelines
... We haven't fully developed the guideline yet, it's the least mature
... If working through examples exposes additional items for guidelines, we can do that

jf: Lists several descriptors -- 5 things -- that might be scorable
... Where does EN get added?

js: Much later

jf: Concerned about circular logic

sl: Which is why we're working in parallel and reiterating
... Possibly into the tests and not the guideline

df: Asks whether current WCAG 2.x base will be brought in; The two heading failures currently defined as per this example
... sc 1.3.1
... Those failures, when detected, will constitute a failure

js: That helps crystalize the issue
... Earlier attempts had more factors but that was counterproductive, it watered things down
... The really bad problem, no semantics, got lost in two many factors

<JF> Severity of the failure

js: That is the problem--asks SL whether we should now digress into severity

sl: Suggests we do need to use prior work as we build 3.0 guidance
... Even if not direct mapping

<Zakim> bruce_bailey_, you wanted to say i am hearing that tests/methods are normative

sl: Believe I heard tests will be normative?

bb: Believe that's necessary

matt: Want to agree with the complexity of providing total scores -- was a problem for us in publishing
... Publishing is currently trying to balance a plain lang description of presenting issues and what users are affected

df: Wonders how severe issues will affect conformance?
... There needs to be a way to capture criticality

sl: agree
... Part of our concern has been to find ways to support different pwd groups; Critical issues for screen readers might be covered, but some issue exist for COGA

<Zakim> JF, you wanted to ask about Measurable, Testable, Repeatable

<Detlev> John you are muted

jf: Believe publishing needs a score, yet it may or not leave a pwd group out
... we do have multiple audiences
... Concerned that this draft is even more complicated than 2.x
... measurable, testable, repeatable are musts -- esp for tool vendors
... So that different testers will obtain approx the same score
... Not seeing help for producers yet

bb: Suggests the count needs to be an instruction and not a summation total

<david-macdonald> can someone drop URL of doc, thanks?

sl: Suggests scoring will look far more complicated until we figure out how it needs to work and can then be made clear

<Lauriat> Scoring Example: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1LfzTd_8WgTi0IUOOjUCRfRQ7e7__FRcnZow4w7zLlkY/edit

jf: Worries counting headings could game conformance

<bruce_bailey_> at this point in time, i don't think we need to focus much on bad faith actors gaming the scoring

js: Asks whether knowing I score 75% is more informative than 100% or 0%
... But agrees the rubric needs to offer better guidance

<bruce_bailey_> i added a comment to doc that evaluator needs to decide -- on their own -- how many headings SHOULD be on the page

jf: Need to say what headings are used for

sl: We ask ourselves how well the scoring reflects impact on pwds
... Further describes the iterative process of development here --

dm: Measurable vs testable first big change; second is nonbinary scoring; ...
... Concerned that analysis load is exploding
... How do you chank passes of "meaningful sequence"
... Wondering what discussion are happening around these issues

js: Yes, and we have recently looked at this ...
... We note everything in 2.x measures by page; but some count instances on page like images; but others are to the page as a unit like timing
... Each guideline requires it's own measure; not previously broken down because conformance model was limited
... We will need to look at these individually
... But dm's point is correct; some are instance based, some page based, etc.
... Could aggregate for keyboard
... Was looking for site-based example; not sure keyboard is

df: Important point that it's not just about measuring what's there
... But that's content dependent
... Suggests Proust would be a problem; no paras, no headings, nada
... Measuring what's not there is problematic
... Have to ask whether distirubtion of headings iis appropriate to the content
... another example, if minor headings are present, but main higher level ones aren't, that's a failure

<JF> +1 alt text on actionable items is *more important* than informative images

js: Notes other work not yet ready for the fpwd draft, e.g. alt text
... Believe we will have separate guideline for image based controls vs other images

sl: task based framework helps us express that

jf: returns to concern about "inaccessible to whom"
... Suggest more so to some but not others and wonders how scoring captures that?
... We need to be more granular in our measurement as regulators get more granular in what they're asking for

js: Returns to an old scoring example to respond and show minimums
... Notes that old example provided score by individual categories and was a good analysis of the website evaluated

jf: Asks about actionable images? Equally disruptive? Or more so?

js: good point--important for Dragon users

jf: Suggests alt text on actionable image is important to capture

js: Yes. As noted earlier, probably we split alt on images into actionable and non-actionable

<Zakim> bruce_bailey_, you wanted to ask if there will be a scoring exercise today or tomorrow?

sl: Answer as we close call -- yes, we need to resolve these

js: People, please pick a site and try this 3 guideline approach out. We need feedback with real data

<jeanne> https://raw.githack.com/w3c/silver/ED-changes-25Feb-js/guidelines/

<jeanne> headings: https://raw.githack.com/w3c/silver/ED-changes-25Feb-js/guidelines/#headings

<jeanne> Clear Language: https://raw.githack.com/w3c/silver/ED-changes-25Feb-js/guidelines/#clear-language

<jeanne> Visual Contrast: https://raw.githack.com/w3c/silver/ED-changes-25Feb-js/guidelines/#visual-contrast-of-text

<Fazio> Fazio scribes 1st hour- SMH

<jeanne> scribe: Fazio

<jcraig> scribe: jcraig

Normative and Information Pros and Cons

<Lauriat> https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/task-forces/silver/wiki/2020_March_F2F_Meeting_at_CSUN

Lauriat: initially review homework from earlier session, but time wise, for minimum conforance, that will be tomorrow morning

later tomorrow agenda will include ACT tests

topic for today: normative vs informative

before exercise, recap the definitions

<sajkaj> scribe: sajkaj

<Fazio> https://www.w3.org/2013/09/normative-references

<jcraig> ETSI definitions: Normative references are necessary for the application of the standard in which they are mentioned (they shall be publicly available and in English). Informative references assist the user with regard to a particular subject area.

<jeanne> https://www.w3.org/TR/qaframe-spec/#norm-informative-gp

<jcraig> https://portal.etsi.org/Services/editHelp/To-help-you-in-your-work/FAQs/Normative-informative-references

<alastairc> There is a definition in WCAG, but not sure if that will help

js: Reminder from Tim Boland to Good Practice #2 --js: So, how to treat normative references is one thing, but we're hoping to find an actual definition of what constitutes normative

<Chuck> alastair... do you have a link to the wcag def?

<jcraig> Cerification Kit definition: Normative elements are those that are prescriptive, that is they are to be followed in order to comply with scheme requirements. Informative elements are those that are descriptive, that is they are designed to help the reader understand the concepts presented in the normative elements.

<jcraig> https://www.certificationkitbag.com/blog/2015/9/30/normative-vs-informative

<jcraig> RFC-2119

<jeanne> https://raw.githack.com/w3c/silver/ED-changes-25Feb-js/guidelines/explainers/visualContrast.html

<jcraig> scribe: jcraig

<charleshall> this debate goes way back. 2002 conversation: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/spec-prod/2002JanMar/0011.html

<jeanne> This guideline section is required (normative).

jeanne: links to visual contrast definition

<jeanne> The following tabbed sections contain helpful information, but are not required (informative).

<sajkaj> Janina notes RFC6919: https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6919

jeanne: laughs at "must (but we know you won't)"

Lauriat: queue

Chuck: someone mentions silver was trying to get away from those defs

<sajkaj> ca: There was mention of getting away from these, but there are arguments against doing that

<KimD> Kind of plain-language-ish, not sure if this is a good source: In information technology standards, normative parts of a standard are those that specify what implementors should conform to and non-normative parts consist of examples, extended explanations, and other matter not dealing directly with the specifications.

could list this as a con in pro/con discussion

<KimD> https://whatis.techtarget.com/definition/normative

jeanne: will discuss RFC-2119 later

<charleshall> definition from UUAG: https://www.w3.org/TR/UAAG10/glossary.html#def-normative

<charleshall> What is identified as "normative" is required for conformance (noting that one may conform in a variety of well-defined ways to this document). What is identified as "informative" (sometimes, "non-normative") is never required for conformance.

<Zakim> bruce_bailey, you wanted to mention 508 does not use word "normative"

<sajkaj> bb: Notes "normative" not used in U.S. Federal regulatory documents

<sajkaj> bb: First heard the term in W3C

bruce_bailey: never seen "normative" used in federal regulation, but it is referenced where referencing external docs

<sajkaj> bb: Don't believe we need to define, because we're using a standard meaning of the term

in standards, you don't need to define words in common usage. I don't know that we need to define it for Silver

<sajkaj> sl: Reason is for us all to understand when we discuss what should be normative, and what not

<Chuck> wasn't chuck, was someone else

<Chuck> unless it's a different Charles.

Lauriat: discussed here so that the participants agree on the vocabulary

JF: I suggested 2119, but it's on the agenda later

Lauriat: silver has layers of info

<Lauriat> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1QF5Olq8880_OmP0Eyr7CmFti5O1VIFUXPhguA6DFzlE/edit#heading=h.jycm1yj4w2u2

need to list pros/cons of using the normative/informative definitions

users needs for functional support, activity for planning, designing, developing

tests: more concrete determination of whether you met the need

methods: concrete methods of how to meet user needs

and finally guidelines

User needs: in order to best explain the need for guidance

a non-exhaustive list of similar user needs, example: image description, used for alt with SR, or voice activation with Speech AT

<jeanne> https://raw.githack.com/w3c/silver/ED-changes-25Feb-js/guidelines/explainers/ClearWords.html

jeanne: user needs are on the get started page under how to

charleshall: Shawn, in the outline, re: tasks: we haven't talked about test categories. we know there are some related to implementaiton

also higher order test to ensure the user need was met

do we need a section test category in outline?

<Chuck> +1 to Lauriat

Lauriat: I don't think so. Lower level tests build up to the higher level user need

e.g. in the example I gave: the label solves multiple user needs (SR output and Speech input)

Fazio: re: example: alt test may not solve the user need for visual alt text representation for cognitive

<sajkaj> jc: Have an example, in Mac OS hover will announce any element on screen and changes the image when hovered for size, color, etc

<sajkaj> jc: Called hover Text

<sajkaj> ca: But there are many such situations, which is why user testing is currently recommended in 2.x

<sajkaj> sl: Want to return to core question --- multiple levels of test? General, tech specific, etc

Lauriat: back to agenda: should we have multiple levels of tests. we could talk through both.

Charles Hall: I raised this a few weeks ago. whether the guidelines are the only normative part.

or if tests needed to measure them are also normative

Fazio: ex: normative for cognitive block in addition to the other formats: SR, Speech. etc

<Zakim> mbgower, you wanted to say that tests are not normative in WCAG; they are associated with techniques

Chuck: could separate by machine automatable and manual?

MG: tests are non-normative at the moment

<Fazio> Good point MG

<JF> +1 to Mike: expected outcomes are what should be normative

using test technique to show you've met a normative req

Lauriat: I will separate into automation (machine automatible) tests and higher level tests

we did not discuss normative, but should not represent these as an exhaustive list b/c we would alsways leave someone out. that would be a CON in terms of calling the techniques normative vs /informative

JF: suggest calling it functional outcomes because it address all user needs collectively

this would make additional techniques additive vs pitting one user against another

Lauriat: concern with that is that it changes the format of what we've already done

jeanne: recommend we address it when we talk about tests. (scribe help jeanne?)

david-macdonald_: discussion in WCAG about what the user needs to experience or what they would need to do... we had trouble defining how the user would experience it.. that info is too broad to list.

<JF> +1 to David

<Zakim> sajkaj, you wanted to ask whether JF is arguing to make user needs / functional outcomes normative?

Lauriat: the is the reason we can't call this a definitive list. these are examples of the needs we are trying to fulfill

sajkaj: John, was the reason for your name change suggestion because you think this should be normative?

JF: when we focus on "needs" we'll never be able to list all need.

sajkaj: are what you are proposing as "functional outcomes"... would it be normative?

JF: yes, because we need to know we've met the need of X user

<jeanne> Meeting the needs is what we are trying to do, so meeting the need should be normative. More of a functional outcome.

scribe missed some of JF explanation

jeanne: I've tried to capture that in the document

I will screen share

jeanne: John's "functional outcome" is in between the user need and the method

are we in agreement that user needs are non-normative?

Lauriat: was not trying to gain consensus in this discussion... I wanted the group to list pros/cons so we gain a shared understanding

for example, some of these becoming normative would make them more difficult to maintain, and therefore less achievable to complete/update wcag3

<Lauriat> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1QF5Olq8880_OmP0Eyr7CmFti5O1VIFUXPhguA6DFzlE/edit#heading=h.jycm1yj4w2u2

sajkaj: you are performing an overview of our existing wireframe

charleshall: John, would it be fair to say "user needs" cannot be made normative?

JF: if we make user needs normative, it will always be incomplete

<charleshall> ^that nic = Chuck

jeanne: let's move on... captured.

<JF> individual needs should not be normative, but the collection of needs - the functional outcome - should

<charleshall> +1 to sentiment of JF

<Fazio> SL "Roles" became "Planning Activities" because of size variations in companies not having certain roles

<scribe> scribe: Fazio

Call if generalized statement says "required" that would make it normative

Chall not call

Alastair: some value in normative statements in activities

SL: what parts of activity section have positive aspect of being normative?

Alastair: Tables aspect maybe. Varies depending on guideline

Chuck: Alastairs observation is pro and con

dog barks


SL: likely different ways of doing activities and meeting user needs. Normative would make it more restrictive

Chuck sees it as a con

LG: user outcome is what's accomplished and only that should be normative

SL: 2 types of tests: Tech specific and Task Specific.

<Zakim> bruce_bailey, you wanted to ask about method vs test

Bruce: Whats difference between tests and methods

SL: Tests are what's needed Method what you do to pass test
... Methods ensure it's there

D MacDonald: WCAG 1 was tech specific. Went Tech agnostic for WCAG 2 for longevity. With current 18 month cycle Tech agnostic is ideal. Brings normative tech specific more relevant

Alastair: reluctant to pin low level test validations to normative, because fast iteration on informative docs not really on normative docs

<Zakim> bruce_bailey, you wanted to ask about normative in context of test versus normative in context of standard

Bruce: need to distinguish requirements from test method and conformance

<Zakim> jcraig, you wanted to list some more cons of making technology-specific tests normative

<jcraig> cons: maintenance (in review and process), slow to update, and ARIA AAM examples

J Craig: Maintenance, timelines for iteration are tedious. Adds a lot of time, responsibility to make normative docs. Can't update easily

SL: Silver will have Widder scope of tech and guidance, Poll requests, file bugs, process will be extremely helpful

<Zakim> MichaelC, you wanted to summarize current W3C thinking on living documents

LG: Non-Normative more searchable, more understandable

<MichaelC> https://www.w3.org/wiki/Evergreen_Standards

<MichaelC> https://www.w3.org/wiki/Process2020

J Craig: Non-normative docs are more flexible like continuous delivery

SL: Higher level task tests - some may be tech specific. Mostly around interactions or platform

<jcraig> I was not suggesting user tests be "Living standard" track. I used AAM as an example to talk about the downside of having frequently changed/updated documents on Rec Track or other normative track. For the record, I think the technology-specific techniques should be non-normative examples. Otherwise, I believe technique contributions will be fewer and slower.

<Zakim> alastairc, you wanted to ask if there were would be some tech specific needs?

SL: Alastair: Specific tech that's is particularly strong or weak may be included or excluded easier if normative tests were implemented

<Zakim> bruce_bailey, you wanted to say FPC statements might be evergreen

SL: could have Bruce: functional criteria can be written in an evergreen way

<alastairc> Note that I'm not in favour of this level being normative, had to stretch for a 'pro'

<Lauriat> We'll get to "Cons" as well, no worries.

LG: People might opt out by saying these tasks don't apply to our tech

<alastairc> I think most of the cons from the last one apply?

JS: normative tests might restrict innovation

LG JF: functional outcomes should be normative

<alastairc> in some cases user need = functional outcome...

C Hall: Higher tests should include cognitive walk throughs for entire tasks

LG: Con If it's normative it's not cumulative

D MacDonald: Guidelines can provide catch all accessibility supported method/technique/way of achieving it

D MacDonald Guidelines are so general that it might be better to make the methods normative

<Zakim> alastairc, you wanted to ask if we are considering it a continuum? E.g. Guideline > Statement of Requirement > Method > Test, with pyramid of content.

<Zakim> bruce_bailey, you wanted to say that normative methods (or maybe normative test) covers for current Silver GL being too open to interpretation

Alastair: pull apart testable statements and functional outcomes maybe

<alastairc> (Self scribing) Normative does not mean testable statement, we could have another concept / statement / paragraph below guideline but above method.

<jcraig> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1QF5Olq8880_OmP0Eyr7CmFti5O1VIFUXPhguA6DFzlE/edit#heading=h.jycm1yj4w2u2

<ChrisLoiselle> Hi Silver! If you'd like me to scribe / take notes for the f2f , I can do so. I may need to jump off prior to 1pm eastern, but am happy to scribe as long as I'm able to.

<ChrisLoiselle> Scribe: ChrisLoiselle

<jon_avila> I believe alt+y is the command to raise a hand in Zoom

<jeanne> chair: Shawn, jeanne

<jeanne> Meeting: Silver Virtual F2F Tuesday

<Lauriat> https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/task-forces/silver/wiki/2020_March_F2F_Meeting_at_CSUN#Agenda

Summary of Action Items

Summary of Resolutions

[End of minutes]

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$Date: 2020/03/10 15:11:02 $

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Default Present: jeanne, Chuck, MichaelC, Lauriat, KimD, mattg, PeterKorn, Rachael, bruce_bailey, kirkwood, JF, sajkaj, Katie_Haritos-Shea, Nicaise_, AngelaAccessForAll, JakeAbma, Detlev, david-macdonald, nicaise, Fazio, charleshall, JoeCronin_, mbgower, alastairc, ChrisLoiselle, Jennie, Laura, Makoto

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such as: <dbooth> Present+ jeanne, Chuck, MichaelC, Lauriat, KimD, mattg, PeterKorn, Rachael, bruce_bailey, kirkwood, JF, sajkaj, Katie_Haritos-Shea, Nicaise_, AngelaAccessForAll, JakeAbma, Detlev

Present: jeanne Chuck MichaelC Lauriat KimD mattg PeterKorn Rachael bruce_bailey kirkwood JF sajkaj Katie_Haritos-Shea Nicaise_ AngelaAccessForAll JakeAbma Detlev nicaise Fazio charleshall JoeCronin_ mbgower alastairc david-macdonald ChrisLoiselle Jennie Laura Makoto
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Scribes: Chuck, sajkaj, Fazio, jcraig, ChrisLoiselle
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Agenda: https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/task-forces/silver/wiki/2020_March_F2F_Meeting_at_CSUN

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People with action items: 

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