COGA Task Force Meeting 5 March 2020

05 Mar 2020


Fazio, Rachael, Jennie, LisaSeemanKest, stevelee__, JohnRochford
John_K, Abi_J


<LisaSeemanKest> present=


<Rachael> scribe: EA

Update on CFC and publication https://raw.githack.com/w3c/coga/pre-csun-2020/content-usable/index.html

Concerns or questions before merging the content usable CFC into the master branch?

Lisa has suggested that the personas and links need to be checked as confusing

Steve agrees Need to link to user needs

Lisa suggested not necessarily have the challenge reference - less of a section

<Rachael> https://raw.githack.com/w3c/coga/pre-csun-2020/content-usable/index.html

Rachel - decision to the bottom or to a single line? Anyone has an opinion - silence

<stevelee__> https://raw.githack.com/w3c/coga/steve-misc-updates/content-usable/index.html#user-testing

Updated version linked by Steve - merged yesterday from Rachel's and Lisa's updates

Jennie - question about Alison - space and other editorial issue that needs fixing. Also 2.3.2 & 3 - may be a style issue.

<Rachael> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Z52phGcYg1oG1kVWxPZJqKom-Zg6bZJcOhEBBhet_yg/edit#

Rachel is maintaining a 'to-do' list that will be added to as the discussion is ongoing

<LisaSeemanKest> https://raw.githack.com/w3c/coga/steve-misc-updates/content-usable/index.html#pattern-break-media-into-chunks

Lisa - need to look at an example pattern - check layout

Lisa asking if the structure is liked - Lisa would like a bit more white space. Maybe user story that is related could be 'bold'

Rachel asked if any comments about the structure?

<LisaSeemanKest> https://raw.githack.com/w3c/coga/steve-misc-updates/content-usable/index.html#objective-7-provide-help-and-support

Lisa mentioned the objectives - changed to user stories - the persona is at the top after feedback - personas need to go to the end or 'see also ...' etc

Steve agreed and suggested that it must not be too long

<Roy_> https://raw.githack.com/w3c/coga/pre-csun-2020/content-usable/index.html#symbols-pictograph-or-ideographic-that-represent-concepts

Lisa suggested just having a few words to provide the link to the persona

Roy mentioned that there is a duplicate for the symbol section - Also does not feel there is a need to change the header name or many of the links

Roy suggested if the headings are changed then they all need to be changed.

<Jennie> How it Helps - starting here it alternates between sentence case and all caps for this level of heading. Recommend sentence case. Also text "what the page is about and what they are doing" is in bold but will not be announced as different to some ATs. Consider highlighting this using text if bolded on purpose.

Lisa suggested only the links to the headings may need changing - wants them all on one line - see also the following persona and then the name of the person with a clue to the need

<Fazio> I find the personas at the top confusing and distracting

Jennie mentions the issue of caps (upper case) and the use of bold not being announced. Details all caps but steps do not have capitals.

Rachel suggested this could be a style issue and despite changes made they may have taken on the lower case style of W3C - different levels

Jennie commented that all caps is not good for cognitive impairments -

Steve has confirmed that the CSS is not the best for some of the styles

<Jennie> How it Helps

<Jennie> what the page is about and what they are doing.

Rachel has suggested there is a formal action that needs to be taken with W3C - can be done but the style changes need to reflect ease of reading - Rachel has added the type of issue above

Steven has confirmed that many bolded words are in <strong>

<Jennie> Need a space between the link and the text in "WCAG github issue 36discussion:"

Lisa has added that we need to make sure the style looks good but must not defer publication.

<LisaSeemanKest> +1

Rachel asked if everyone is happy publishing without the template change.

<Fazio> 0

<JohnRochford> -1

<Jennie> +1 to publishing as long as we have on the roadmap addressing the heading style issue in the future.


<stevelee__> +1 maybe with editors note

EA is questioning how long it would take to change the CSS - if too long +1

Rachel will take an action to talk to Michael about the time to make the change

Lisa saying we do not have to run another CFC

Lisa suggested adding an editor's note and not endorsing the styles

John asked for his opinion - missed part of the conference call. Wanted to confirm that there would be a delay if the CSS was changed

<Jennie> Sometimes the links begin with lower case at the beginning of lines, other times it starts with a capital, e.g. wcag issue 54 WCAG issue 37. Should be consistent?

<Fazio> That's aa good point

<Jennie> Above example is in: Technical Detai

<Fazio> same here

Lisa would like to publish as the content has been improved and the template changes could happen as there will have to be conversation with W3C - could be a 3 month conversation which would delay by more than 2 days. Can always publish an itteration.

<Fazio> +1

<stevelee__> +1

<JohnRochford> +1

<Jennie> +1

<LisaSeemanKest> +1

Rachel asking if we can put an editor's note in is it OK


<Jennie> Unclear text: Pattern: Provide at Least One Login Alternative Does Not Require Reading or Writing a Lot of Words I can quickly log in to this website using the social network account I'm already logged into. ******

Steve firstly about the timing - a bit concerned about the length to read and make sure it is all OK. Can we relax the timing? CSUN presenters now not attending

Rachel mentioned that she will not be attending CSUN

<Fazio> I find the persona structure confusing

Lisa has said that the pressure could be taken off for a day or two. Need to improve mapping and edits happen - deadline was the end of this week Move to Tuesday 10th March.

<Jennie> No meaningful text for links in More Details

Lisa went on to say we can have multiple iterations - will be continually making editorial changes and this is not the wide review draft. So much better than currently on TR

Steve agrees with Lisa as he is happy it is not going for wide review until later.

<Jennie> * Rachael: I have been adding minor edits into the IRC. Things you can review later.

<Roy_> <strong>How it helps</strong>

Roy said he can try to confirm about the style sheet issues and if there is no link to a section they do not like that style - why not use <strong>

Lisa says we cannot lose the heading structure - needed for accessibility

Roy will push for the style to change with W3C

<Fazio> But it hasn't phased organizers

<Fazio> Money money money

<JohnRochford> agreed

John - governor of California now in state of emergency - surprised CSUN still going ahead.

<stevelee__> +1

Rachel agrees with Lisa to get this document out on Friday 14th March - draw the line and then start with the next iteration

<stevelee__> https://raw.githack.com/w3c/coga/pre-csun-2020/content-usable/index.html#objective-1-help-users-understand-what-things-are-and-how-to-use-them

<Jennie> +1: I think transparency is good. I would put that information of what's next as an editor's note if possible.

Steve talked abouut the structure of the User needs - personas broken down

Fazio saying needs a thesis statement

Lisa under clear operation: clarity with shorter headings - clear purpose: see also the following ... etc

David applicable personas then link to scenarios - several different ways of linking causing concern - need to be more concise. User with memory issue ...thesis statement, this is what it is about ...

Rachel has suggested we need to work through these ideas and capture any other concerns with the next steps

Lisa asked what is the next step...

Rachel suggested that Lisa and Steve join her in a call another time.

Check in on WCAG 2.2 SC https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/wiki/Upcoming_agendas

Rachel - next topic WCAG 2.2 - everyone comfortable?

Fazio asked about his CFC

Steve mentioned that the one that he and John Kirkwood worked on had support and is going through

John has not heard about his authentication one

Rachel has said that authentication will be going for CFC and others so no actions.

Steve reckoned his and John K's had been added to the source code as has others.

Jennie said that she thinks hers will be going out on Tuesday but not sure and her travel status is not confirmed

Next Week's meeting and dinner

Rachel moving on to CSUN dinner and next week's meeting. Do we meet next week?

EA is at a conference

Lisa has suggested a virtual meeting and give people to chat about their projects and have a networking time bringing in other organisations - get the effect of CSUN networking without having to attend.

Steve liked the idea and Rachel suggested that she could send out information about the idea during the regular coga call.

Rachel asked about next Thursday 12th cancel or not...

Rachel will send out a note on Monday and also planning meeting for Silver and the dinner - will check and cancel if necssary.

Rachel asked if there were any other comments regarding next week's plans.

John suggested that there is a need to check about reservations as they could have been cancelled automatically

What do we want in the next draft of content usable?

Rachel - next draft of content usable - small editorial issues and template update but what else needs to be completed?

Lisa mentioned a need to integrate glossary, link with WCAG relevant areas, wayfinding, conversational interchanges,bots - issue papers and editing, mental health, patterns that need rewriting. testable statements, business metrics... the planning page had the wish list

<Rachael> https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/task-forces/coga/wiki/PlanningPage#updated_time_line_-April_2020

<Jennie> * Have to drop off for my next meeting. Have a good week.

Lisa added the next gap - updating references, issue processing, add images for success and failures,

Steve wants to start on the interactive web version of patterns and personas

Lisa has suggested we review it and see what is missing

Rachel suggested we need to start planning the next version

Summary of Action Items

Summary of Resolutions

[End of minutes]

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Present: Fazio Rachael Jennie LisaSeemanKest stevelee__ JohnRochford
Regrets: John_K Abi_J
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